Okay seriously, Obama supporters, this Memphis photo-op thing is fucking stupid

[Hippo_Tron]

So is sniper-gate and so is bookbag-gate.

These things are little more than tabloid stories that tell me absolutely nothing about how good or bad of a president Clinton will be. They are exploited on DU and in the case of sniper-gate, the mainstream media, to make you believe that Clinton makes up stories and say anything to get elected. Maybe she does maybe she doesn't. I don't know her personally and so I can't say for sure. But I do know that she has given me absolutely no reason to believe that she is a liar because these hyped up incidents are not evidence that she lies even though someone on television tells me that they are. And since I don't have good reason to believe otherwise, I give her the benefit of the doubt.

They do the same thing to Obama. They play this Reverand Wright bullshit over and over again and extrapolate from it that Obama must hate white people, homosexuals, and Jews because his preacher said some mean things. Reverand Wright doesn't tell me a damn thing about how Obama will do as President. Again, I don't know for a fact that he doesn't hate white people, homosexuals, and Jews because I don't know him personally. But he has given me absolutely no reason to believe otherwise and so just like with Clinton, I give him the benefit of the doubt.

As an Obama supporter I say that EVERYBODY needs to stop pretending that we know every little thing about these candidates' personalities just because of these few instances that get reported in the media. Lets stick to the issues.

[anonymous171]

1. Snipergate is important.

[Taxmyth]

22. Not important at all

Completely blown out of proportion to take the focus off of Senator Clinton's worldwide efforts and the lack of Senator Obama's. If she had said she saw or heard sniper fire, it might be a legitimate point but she never said that. Simply a memory lapse of an event that occurred 12 years earlier and one that was corrected when pointed out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I have to ask... have you ever been under fire?

I have

I can describe this to you in complete and utter detail and that was about twelve years ago... (no, not bosnia, hell not even the US Military)

I remember the fear and the knowledge that I was already dead... just needed a bullet to go through me and make it official. I remember the cold. I remember the smell of the ground, the blood, salty in smell and sticky in nature. I also remember the zinging over me, and the few rounds that hit close and plopped on the mud... the smell of human refuse, flowing by me... and of course after it was over the cold, and my hands shaking uncontrollably. I wasn't shot that day... but my patient was, several times, by automatic fire.

She said was under fire...

THere is no record of it because she never was under fire.

And to those of us who have actually been there, done that, this is problematic, even insulting

The ORIGINAL story, without I was shot at, was enough to prove her point. No false lead mosquitoes needed.

[Taxmyth]

DId she say she saw or heard sniper fire

or were her words those of someone who was warned about possible sniper fire 12 years previously? I don't really expect any of the more rabid to see the difference but there is a difference and a reasonable one. I myself have never been under fire. I did fire an M-16 during my Basic Training, so I have heard and seen that type of fire. Senator Clinton never said she saw or heard sniper fire.

[Joe the Revelator]

105. This bullshit parsing got REAL tired 4 months ago.....

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

119. What parallel universe do you live in?

She said on several occasions that she had to run across the tarmac because of sniper fire.

From salon.com:

“I remember landing under sniper fire. There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base.”

She said it. On at least four occasions.

This is a different account than what appears in her book, "Living History," where Hillary recalls that the welcoming ceremony was moved indoors because of "reports" of snipers in the surrounding hills.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. She clearly said she WAS UNDER SNIPER FIRE

four times during four different speeches.

This is REAL... as in RECORDED.

Damn cameras...

[GalleryGod]

122. Thank You! These KeyBoard Kommando "Apologists" make me puke!

If you were ever UNDER FIRE...you would recall every detail forever!

See sig line!

[NanceGreggs]

39. "Simply a memory lapse" ...

... that she repeated over and over, until the video footage disproving her assertions surfaced.

"If she had said she saw or heard sniper fire, it might be a legitimate point, but she never said that."

That is exactly what she said - and then some. But let's not let facts get in the way.

[Taxmyth]

60. Repeated several times in speeches, yes

But I still have yet to see the speech or statement that says she actually saw sniper fire or muzzle flashes or heard either the report of a weapon being discharged or the projectile itself. As far as I am aware, her repeating the story of landing under sniper fire was a fairly new story and had been repeated only during the last year or so which is still 12 years after the original mission.

Maybe I'm the one reaching and maybe it is the distinctly anti-Hillary crowd that is reaching to paint her in a bad light. There is room for legitimate disagreement as to whether or not her words constitute a lie or were the result of a faulty memory of the original incident some 10 years plus earlier.

[NanceGreggs]

63. Maybe you're the one that's reaching ...

... do you think?

[Taxmyth]

81. I accept that

and I stated just that in the prior post. I also accept that there are those who wish to do nothing but harm to Senator Clintons chances of being elected President.

It very well could be that I am the one willing to overlook a devestating lie told simply for political expediency.

Or it could be that there is an effort to damage Senator Clinton in the Democratic Primary process and the use of "snipergate" is an exaggerated attempt to paint Senator Clinton in a bad light.

I can understand the need to negate the worldwide endeavors undertaken by the former First Lady by her opponent and those supporting that candidate in the Democratic Primary and even on to the general election.

So, did she lie or did she err in her recall of an event that occurred some decade plus earlier? There is room for disagreement there and like other events in Senator Clinton's life there will be those who refuse to see the truth. On both sides.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Look if she had STUCK to the original EVENTS, no lead mosquitoes

she'd be honoring her role in the most successful intervention of the Cold War.

For that I respect her

When she added the lead mosquitoes I had a problem

By the way, before you say it again, I AM NOT A SUPPORTER OF THE OTHER SIDE

Recent events on this site no less, have shown to me we have three very poor choices

A fascist (four more years), fascist light (your candidate) and a corporatist.

Come November I will be voting, though not enthusiastically, for either of the last two.

But quite frankly, this was not a mispeak, but a lie... and we've had seven years of a man lying every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I truly don't want four more years of that. And I don't care if the liar is a democrat this time.

And quite frankly her supporters should STOP bringing the snipers up... and hope people forget bout them.

[Eric Condon]

43. Not important at all = "it doesn't count." Just like everything else not in your candidate's favor.

It IS important because it's completely insulting to those who have actually been under fire, and it completely denigrates their sacrifices, all for nothing more than political gain.

[Taxmyth]

72. stop with the faux outrage

The woman travelled to visit US Troops stationed in a war zone on the orders of their government. She wasn't forced to go, this was a voluntary effort on her part to build the morale and support those troops. Nothing insulting or denigrating towards anyone there, in fact, quite a heroic effort and one to be lauded. That's not something that supporters of another candidate would want emphasized so it's not difficult to see where this "outrage" is being originated.

More than enough information available to show that this was an error in recall as she never states she saw or heard this sniper fire. I could understand someone getting upset about that but that's not where we are at.

[Eric Condon]

94. Her reasons for being there aren't the issue at hand.

What matters is that she LIED, multiple times, and was so arrogant about it that she thought she could get away with it, that no one would bother to call her on it.

Stop calling this "faux outrage." This is genuine outrage, and people who have respect for the truth would do well to be outraged by this.

[stellanoir]

100. There is a huge difference between a memory lapse and a totally embellished

fabrication.

[Recursion]

108. Sorry, I get very very angry when people lie about combat experiences

And a lot of other vets do too.

[roguevalley]

127. its damned important to me. when she was pretending, my nephew

was actually ducking sniper fire in Bosnia. She exploited the troops for personal gain. The pugs do that, bush does that. NO DEM IS SUPPOSED TO DO THAT!
It is important. Damned important.

[Taxmyth]

2. Good words

Not sure if they will be heeded in GD:P but thanks for the positive approach.

[Maddy McCall]

3. The thing is, no one in the real world cares about the silly stuff DUers obsess on.

I agree with you.

K/R

[TLM]

69. That must be why she's lost 20 points in PA in the last two weeks. n/t

[dionysus]

116. yeah, those silly things called lies....

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

4. I disagree on the snipergate, but totally agree on the other two.

[Skittles]

5. you are CORRECT

it's not right when it's done to HRC and it's not right when it's done to Obama. I am SHOCKED how many DUers fall for the corporate media-induced GARBAGE

[boppers]

6. They tell me the following about Clinton:

1. She lacks basic education.
2. She lacks basic integrity.
3. She lacks basic honesty.

*gate after *gate, and her handling of them, have shown me that she doesn't understand the core issues reflecting women's rights, civil rights, global combat, or even just plain being honest in front of a microphone.

Oh, and Wright isn't running.

[JI7]

7. i disagree about SniperGate

[NanceGreggs]

8. I totally agree ...

... with respect to book-bags, "as far as I know", hospital-story-gate, and the rest of it.

However, the sniper-fire story goes far beyond speculation. Hillary lied - and there is no getting around that one.

[Maddy McCall]

15. If Obama gets the nomination, just wait until the media starts tearing his books apart.

It will happen. The only reason they're not doing it now is because they're spotlighting Clinton.

I expect McCain to sail through the August-November period. Obama will be blasted by the media.

They're just not focusing on him now because they like to make a caricature out of hillary.

[NanceGreggs]

23. He hasn't exactly folded in the face of controversy ...

... to date, and I doubt he will in future.

[leftofcool]

50. Really?

You might ask yourself what the repuke slime machine is sitting on........just waiting to reveal

[NanceGreggs]

55. Well, maybe we just shouldn't run any candidate ...

... because they're going to be slimed by the 'repuke machine', no matter who they are.

I guess we should just hand the presidency to the GOP rather than face the inevitable propaganda catapult.

Yeah, you're right - let's just drop out of the race now, before it gets really messy.

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Recursion]

110. Here's the thing: we don't think he'll fare worse than HRC already has

You guys keep saying "wait until the media tear into him". Well, we understand that's going to happen. We also think Hillary has proven for about 16 years now that she's not very good at surviving the media's attacks. Obama at least has a chance.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. She misspoke, I have no idea whether or not she actually lied

I can speculate on that one all I want but that doesn't make it so. And more importantly I just don't think it matters.

[NanceGreggs]

27. She spoke of her "vivid recollections" ...

... about an incident that never happened. The video footage is available for all to see. There is no "speculation" at play here.

You may not think it matters, but the voters apparently do.

[Hippo_Tron]

33. Again, it's simply not proof that she lied about anything or is a liar

When you have the TV cameras running constantly and haven't slept much because you've been campaigning non-stop for the last year, you misspeak. It's possible that she lied, but there's just no proof of it.

And yes the voters do care and they also care about a lot of other things that don't matter like whether or not they want to have a beer with their candidate. BTW, that's one of the reasons I think Obama is more electable.

[NanceGreggs]

45. How can you possibly ...

... look at the video footage of her arrival in Bosnia, and compare it to her version of the event, and say there is no proof that she lied?

This is starting to sound like George Bush never insinuated a connection between Saddam Hussein and 9-11.

The woman lied. If you don't think that's important, so be it. But that doesn't change the fact that she lied.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. I say really really dumb things when I don't sleep

What Hillary said was incredibly stupid. Did she lie? It's very possible. It's also possible that she said something stupid.

I simply don't know but you're right it's mostly that I simply don't care.

[NanceGreggs]

54. Did she lie?

"It's very possible."

No, it's not 'very possible'; it has been proven to be a fact.

And I DO care. And because she's running for the presidency of the United States, I think it's worth caring about.

[TLM]

79. She told the same story..... over and voer

"What Hillary said was incredibly stupid. Did she lie? It's very possible. It's also possible that she said something stupid."



She said the saem BS story like 4 or 5 times... then when confronted with Sinbad's comments and questions about the discrepancies... she insulted him and INSISTED her memory was clear and she had to duck and run from sniper fire to her transport and the ceremony was canceled.

THEN more video and the reporter who covered the event showed up and Hillary still insisted they were in alert conditions, they rushed to cars etc. and only stopped fr a few seconds to greet this girl.

THEN MORE video surfaced showing her lingering on the tarmac for like 15 or 20 minutes doing photos and meeting some group of 7th graders.

Only after that did she say she was sleep deprived and "misspoke"

I say when Bush says, "put food on your family" that is misspeaking... when he says saddam has weapons of mass destruction, that's a lie.

When Hill makes up shit that she knows damn well NEVER happened... that's a lie.

MOreover it is a lie to pump up this supposed international leadership credibility, when closer examination shows she's over hyping a lot of simple ceremonial greeting and photo ops.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

83. Consistency is an important quality of leadership.

:tv:

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Problem is for those who actually been there done that,

you know you don't mispeak about that.

We've got a name for that

Valor Theft

Why it is hurting her

[Ichingcarpenter]

49. She said it Four fricking Times and had a speech prepared

Good Fucking Grief...... A Speech prepared!!

[AlinPA]

104. Lets put it another way: what she said in her snipergate speeches was bullshit.

Is that a better way to describe it?

[Ichingcarpenter]

25. I had friends that either died from Snipers in Nam

or did the killing themselves....... It makes a joke of killing, war and death.

[Hippo_Tron]

38. No, what makes a joke of killing, war, and death is the way the Republicans treat our veterans

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. Have you ever been there?

It was a sobering experience for me, as was my visit to Buchenwald,
but it wasn't a campaign opportunity.

Take it for what it was, McCain showed up.

[leftstreet]

10. Snipergate was not a "hyped up incident" n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

11. Snipergate is hardly stupid...

She flat-out LIED. A big, nasty lie. Bookbag-gate is silly to a degree, and the Memphis photo-op was ill-advised, but her "ducking sniper fire" in the face of video PROOF to the contrary was a MAJOR blunder. If I were her political opponent in the 2012 Senate race, I'd pick that sucker up and RUN with it.

[tishaLA]

12. I think snipergate is sorta important

the rest I have no time for.

[Levgreee]

13. She has lied about lots of other things, NAFTA, IWR, 35 years, etc.

Bosnia was just the first time she was caught so red-handed that she couldn't deny it, whatsoever. Although the other times were pretty clear too, as she had remarks that directly contradicted each other, but she's good at weaseling out of those by always employing vague language, double speak, etc.

I heard her just say recently she spent her time as a lawyer for defending the rights for the common people, when she was actually a corporate lawyer.

[Maddy McCall]

17. Wait til the media starts picking apart Obama's books.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. They've had a year to do so, yet...

*crickets*

:shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

26. And they won't, until he gets the nomination.

They'll save that for after the nomination. They've got Hillary to scrutinize now.

If and when it's down to him and McCain, they will do so.

He's had a pretty easy ride thus far.

See my post above. #15

[Cooley Hurd]

34. One thing about the corporate media - they've never held their powder...

...if it's big and will get ratings (AND help Repuglicans), they'll put it up immediately.

The more time that passes, the more I'm sure that anything "shocking" in Senator Obama's past has seen the light of day. So far, Reverend Wright is all they've gotten - and that has been effectively debunked.

[Maddy McCall]

52. Oh really? Like the McCain/lobbyist scandal that they sat on for years?

They will not blow their whole wad now. When Clinton is out, they'll target Obama.

Mark my word. I know I'm right about this.

[Cooley Hurd]

58. Now is the time for them to try to destroy Obama...

...and they haven't. Because they can't. I trust your judgment, but I disagree with you this time.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. And NAFTA, IWR are things that are certainly worth discussing

Sniper-Gate is not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Let me preface this by remindnng the readers that I have not taken sides

with either of these two

BUT the Bosnia incident was not just tabloid.

We have tape, and recordings that DIRECTLY contradict what actually happen, again recordings.

Now that is the kind of record that is quite damming... and sadly the original story was good enough, in fact excellent since it was the best intervention of the cold war.

To the rest, yep you are correct, they are taking things and making big deals of them instead of actual policy

That said, there is little daylight between the two democrats when it comes to policy... but I should say Obama has a better personality... but that';s about it

I will vote for either of these two, but not joyfully either.

In 2004 I woke up and was a the polls before they opened... after the let down of 2006 I'll get to them when I get to them, in between the rushes that is.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. And the video evidence is proof that she misspoke not that she lied

[leftstreet]

28. "I remember landing under sniper fire...

There was supposed to be some kind of a greeting ceremony at the airport, but instead we just ran with our heads down to get into the vehicles to get to our base."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

44. She's got her head down in that picture.

[leftstreet]

48. LOL n/t

[Quixote1818]

31. She clearly lied or got the event mixed up with something else

"We ran to our cars..." That is just flat out false.

[Hippo_Tron]

37. Clearly lied or got the event mixed up with something else isn't proof that she lied

When you have been campaigning nonstop for a year and have the cameras rolling and don't sleep, you say dumb things. Again, I'm not saying she didn't lie, but I'm not saying that she did either. I'm saying this is just not a good thing to judge Hillary Clinton over.

[JVS]

67. You say dumb things of 4 different occasions in the same manner?

[casus belli]

85. So which incident is she recollecting? You haven't bothered to consider that.

Getting the event mixed up with another where she actually DID land under sniper fire would entail there actually BEING an incident where she landed under hostile conditions. Seeing as how no one can come up with an incident where this sort of risk actually took place, she's either got an overactive imagination, or she's lying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. X'cuse me but the words speak for themselves

"I remember landing under sniper fire."

This happens all the time, especially to the wife of the POTUS.

REALLY.

The only reason people confuse this with mispeaking is they have never been shot at really.

I have... and you never EVAH forget the experience.

I've also seen down the barrel of guns a couple times, again another experience YOU never, EVAH forget

Hell, from time to time I've got lots of fun waking up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat.

[JVS]

65. huh? No, it's the exact opposite. It shows that nothing resembling her story happened...

and that exact details of her story are pure bullshit.

[Hippo_Tron]

68. Okay again, I just don't care about what she said happened in Bosnia

It tells me nothing about Iraq, health care, the economy, GLBT rights, and everything else that matters. She embellished a story and it was a dumb thing to do. I don't base my votes off of whether or not someone embellishes a story.

[JVS]

73. Trust is a very critical issue. If you cannot trust a person's word, you don't know where they...

stand on any issue. This is especially important in the wake of the last 8 years. A lot of people who we need to attract to win this fall trusted Bush at some point. As it has become clear that Bush has lied to the country, his approval rating has plummeted. Still, we cannot win their support if they have no confidence in our candidate dealing any more honestly with them.

[tammywammy]

16. Snipergate, important, the other two not

[sandnsea]

20. Lying about being under sniper fire is not stupid

The other two, I agree, stupid. But you simply do not forget whether or not you were being shot at. Along with numerous other lies she's told, it is absolutely pertinent to the character of the President. No More Liars.

[Quixote1818]

29. I could care less about the Memphis photo, though she does look clueless

however, Sniper-gate would cause her major problems in the General Election. After Bush, credibility will be a top issue with voters.

[AZBlue]

30. I agree issues are more important, but she did lie and the photo op is a bit cheesy.

It's unsettling and it's just so obvious that it's tacky.

[grasswire]

32. it's like throwing spaghetti against the wall...

...trying to get something to stick. When will the people tire of it?? The only object of it is to try to seize the day's headlines.

[blogslut]

40. The Bosnia story hurt her

Badly. Now she's got reporters across the nation questioning her credibility.

I agree, the other "gates" are silly. I also agree that real issues are being ignored while we watch the media play gossip monger. It's tiring and insulting and if I had the opportunity, I'd smack each and every one of them upside the head.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. I agree that it hurt her and I agree that it can be an issue when debating electability

But in terms of whether or not she would actually be a good president, it is irrelevant.

[Cooley Hurd]

47. "whether or not she would actually be a good president, it is irrelevant"

It's HIGHLY relevant to anyone who is SICK of their President lying to them - and I'm one of them!

[Ichingcarpenter]

53. I had friends that died from Snipers in Nam

Do You understand that? Or is that a joke?

[Hippo_Tron]

57. I think the joke would be electing another Republican who doesn't give a shit about veterans

[JVS]

70. Which would be an issue if this were GWB running again, but to argue that McCain, who...

spent 5 years as a POW doesn't give a shit about veterans is going to be a HARD argument to make.

[Hippo_Tron]

74. McCain was part of the Republican Majority that allowed Walter Reed to happen...

And also allowed Rummy to send our troops into battle without proper body armor and humvees. Certainly if he could have called them out on this but he didn't.

What part of Republicans don't give a shit about veterans do you not comprehend? Comments about Bosnia don't change peoples' lives. Democrats are better for our troops and better for our veterans. It's really that simple.

[JVS]

86. While that works here, having someone who has shot her credibility say it won't work...

and it especially won't work when her opponent is a man who was born on a naval base in Panama, whose father and grand-father were admirals, who went to the naval academy, served on an aircraft carrier, who was captured for 5 years, came back with serious injuries that required physical therapy (possibly even in Walter Reedo for all we know), and whose son is a marine. This guy doesn't just have contact with the armed forces (Navy in particular), he's lived within the navy's institutions his entire life and his family has too. We can point out that the Republicans are bad for veterans and all he needs to say is that someone who has been involved with the military his entire life, he has a personal interest in the well being of the veterans. The same way he distanced himself from the other GOP candidates' support of torture, he can distance himself from the Walter Reed scandal. The public will buy it too, because he can easily display a personal connection to these issues. McCain's interest in the military and veterans will be as easily believed as a Baldwin brother's interest in acting.

[Hippo_Tron]

88. I agree completely

I'm just trying to convince DU that issues are the most important thing. I realize that convincing the American people of this is impossible.

And yes I think sniper-gate is relevant to electability. But I think anyone saying they won't vote for Hillary over sniper-gate needs some perspective.

[blogslut]

59. That could be

People embellish all the time, especially politicians.

My problems with Senator Clinton have nothing to do with her recent gaffes. My concerns have more to do with her beltway mindset and the fact that she will face nothing but obstruction if she's elected president.

[Hippo_Tron]

61. Then lets talk about that, for god's sake

That actually tells me something about whether or not we'll get health care or get out of Iraq. You know, things that matter...

[blogslut]

75. Then, you're in the right place

If you're expecting the corporate media to discuss these issues, you're out of luck.

We'll get to the issues - as soon as we have a nominee.

[Ichingcarpenter]

76. I don't have the Patience or the health for another liar in my life

Anyone that makes mockery of War as a joke, like Bush did with his WMD Press party
or Hillary with Bosnia or any other genocidal experience is fricking sick.

Listen, I don't have insurance, lost it to pre conditions and my health is failing.
This battle of truth is not a Jay Leno joke either.

To me, TRUTH, has become a shallow emptiness in this nation, that has left
me, losing my health, losing my nation, losing my freedom and losing the Constitution
that was held so dearly to me.

Justice was covered up by Ashcroft years ago, because her tits were too proud.

Obama is not the total answer, but I damn well know a liar.

[sandnsea]

66. A LIAR is not a good President

hellooooo??? What country have you been living in for the last 8 years?? Yeesh. Her dishonesty is at the heart of every single rotten thing she's done in this campaign, from the day she first said students in Iowa shouldn't vote - it's been a lie a day since then.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Embellishing a story about Bosnia doesn't tell me whether or not she'd be a good President...

Just like her husband's lying about sex doesn't tell me anything about how he was as President. Things like her explanation for voting for the IWR and other important issues are how I make up my mind that I'd rather have Obama.

[sandnsea]

80. Have you ever been mistaken about being shot at???

And then she turned around and told jokes about it. Do her lies about the election process matter to you? Her telling pledged delegates they could ignore the votes of the people? Does anything about her character matter to you at all???

[Hippo_Tron]

84. It matters to me that Hillary didn't hold Bush's feet to the fire before voting to let him go to war

And it does matter to me that she claims she made the best decision with the evidence that she had. That tells me something about her character.

An embellished story about Bosnia doesn't.

[sandnsea]

87. I don't get it

There was more doubt on the WMD than there was on whether bullets were flying at her. I just don't understand how all her lies during this campaign can not matter to people.

[Hippo_Tron]

89. Because her experience in Bosnia isn't that important

Maybe I just have low expectations, but frankly I'm used to politicians embellishing stories. To me this is like her lying about whether she's a Yankees fan or a Mets fan. I just don't care.

I don't know her personally and so therefore I just don't have the proof to come to conclusions like "Hillary is a pathological liar." I don't follow her around 24/7 and I don't know what she does and says when the cameras aren't rolling. I think trying to discern someone's personality based on what they do or say on television is simply not a good idea.

So I have determined that the best way to pick a candidate is judge them simply based on the issues and ignore the mainstream media when the extrapolate these things from incidents that are non-issues.

[sandnsea]

90. I guess you do

No wonder we get President's like Bush. It never occurred to me that there were people who didn't care whether they were lied to. Explains a lot.

[Hippo_Tron]

91. I care whether I'm lied to about Weapons of Mass Destruction

I don't care whether I'm lied to about Bosnia, blow jobs, and other irrelevant things. Politicians lie. That started long before Bush was even born. When they lie about things that actually matter is when it becomes a real problem.

[sandnsea]

92. And being shot at matters

The actual law on elections matters. The rules on selecting our nominee matters. Whether she supported NAFTA matters. Saying she criticized the war before Obama matters. And all the little personal lies matter too, because all of it comes out of the same mouth, and goes to the person's character.

[Hippo_Tron]

93. And I think you're trying to paint a complete picture about character based on limited information

[sandnsea]

95. How many different instances of lying do you need? n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

96. I need first hand evidence

Not things I hear on television.

[sandnsea]

97. You can't go back in time

to be there first hand. You have to rely on the reports of various people, just like juries do in a courtroom.

[johnnydrama]

99. huh?

You don't believe video you see on TV that directly contradicts everything she said?

You needed to be in Bosnia in order to have an opinion?

What about the multitudes of reporters she was on the trip with that directly say she's not telling the truth.

I suggest you find the Josh Marshall video of everything that she said about Bosnia in order, cut in with the videos, and see if your mind gets changed.

You know the pilot of the plane was personally insulted that anybody would think he'd land a plane with the first lady anywhere close to sniper fire.

Is your theory that somebody that lies about the small things doesn't lie about the large things as well?

That seems to be what you're saying. Until she's President and lies about something important, any lies aren't worth of our scrutiny?

[chascarrillo]

111. She seems to think it was important, which makes it important pretty much by definition.

And which makes lying about her experince... important.

[McCamy Taylor]

56. The MSM replays "Hillary is a liar" to make Obama look bad. Makes him look dirty

because they can pretend they get the oppo from him. Watch, Hillary's polls with Democrats will rise again, just like Bill Clinton's did during the Starr investigation. The SDs will turn from her in fear but rank and file Dems will embrace her and get mad at the leading Dems and call them wimps when they desert her and soon she will be the Gene McCarthy.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. Don't Bogart that joint.

:hi:

[rodeodance]

62. Thank you so much (on the front page are 4 posts--all the same-

about Memphis. Obsession--as then BO fans once again jump on
each thread with a rude or lie about Hillary.
And they have 4 opportunies each.
Sick behavior is what is is

[McCamy Taylor]

77. I don't think most of them are Obama fans anymore. And this aint Kansas....

[A-Schwarzenegger]

78. It's a simple case of human misspokiness.

First she's not human enough, now she's too human.
Please make up your minds please.

[grantcart]

82. I don't think it is a big thing but the photo creeped me out

don't think it will change anybody's mind and I like to think that I defend Hillary on small shit but I remember exactly what I was doing and the expression on my parents face when we saw the stories about King's assasination. For me I can't see smiling or acting glibly about it.

[flor de jasmim]

98. OK, so let's say Obama doesn't get the "white racist vote" -- and probably

not the Hispanic/Asian/etc. etc. racist vote. But I refuse to believe that the MAJORITY of (voting) Americans are so racist that they would not vote for him. NO PRESIDENT gets ALL the votes. The question is whether or not we are fundamentally a country that wishes to go forward and get some relief from the policies, attitudes and yes, lying, of the B/C administration, or not.

I am referring to Obama vs. McCain in the GE. Hillary cannot win the nomination honestly at this point, and she is now so vulnerable that I do not believe the party officials will allow her to win dishonestly.

Is lying on Bosnia and NAFTA important? HELL, yes.
Is lying on the medical story important? Perhaps less so, but if the media could debunk the story so quickly, her STAFF should have been able to do so, as well. And as has been pointed out, there are so many other stories, easily verifiable, she could have used. It suggests a lack of care or even laziness not to make sure all t's are crossed.

Pastor Wright? If you think Obama was too clever in his parsing to say that he did not hear THOSE PARTICULAR sermons, OK. But he also says he looks at the man as a whole, rather than judging him on part of the discourse, and the chickens coming home to roost were not even Wright's own, in the first place.

Sweetie-gate? Ridiculous!!

Bookbag-gate? There were bookbags then (heavy canvass)--for me it wasn't the bookbag that made the story artificial, but the fact that she was reading it (what part was she afraid of forgetting of this memory that had supposedly lasted for 40 years?!). The way she described her hurling of it was just "off." But whether she actually had a bookbag and even hurled it, who cares? Again, her message was about HER.

The picture? I have to say that when I saw the first message posted with pictures, I didn't notice the name of the motel, and as she had been in Oregon first, my first thought was that because her campaign has run out of money she was staying at more humble lodgings than she does normally (HONEST!). In that context, the smile was perfectly natural. Once I realized that she was waving and smiling it felt creepy, because whenever I have been at a place where someone has died in unfortunate circumstances (Dachau, the Paris tunnel), I get chills up and down my back. Therefore, it would never occur to me to smile and wave, not in that fashion. I might raise a hand to acknowledge I'd heard. Now, if I were planning on voting for her and this was the only thing, it would not change my mind.

But I want to feel pride in being American, pride in my President, pride in the direction the country is going, and secure in believing that the President is doing a much better job than the average citizen! I feel all of these things with Barack, and some of them with Hillary.

WHEW! I didn't mean to write so much, and at the end of a long line of messages, probably no one will even read it, but there you have it.

[OneBlueSky]

101. the photo is important only in that it reinforces the cluelessness of the candidate . . .

for most people, visiting that site would be a somber and reflective experience . . . to see Sen. Clinton smiling and waving as if it were just one more campaign stop tells me a lot about her judgement, or lack thereof . . .

"clueless" is the word that comes to mind, and that's not something I want to see in a president . . . we've had it for the past eight years, and that's quite sufficient, thank you very much . . .

[izzybeans]

102. Books bags and photos for sure. But my first reaction to those photos were

remembering what it was like to be taking that tour. I wasn't smiling. But I can admit it is a petty complaint.


The sniper shit, however that was embarrassing for Hillary. For someone who is constantly called a pathological liar to, well lie, wasn't a smart move.

[Khaotic]

103. Snipergate ...

If you don't get the importance of "snipergate" then you're a fucking idiot.

She manufactured the story ... like telling a fucking fairy tale.

To add insult to injury, she manufactured it around a combat situation. This is especially insulting to veterans.

Adm. Mike Borda killed himself in light of wearing combat devices he had not earned. The fact that it's taken that seriously should tell everyone how hardcore miliary personel are about getting credit for combat.

Did you know that serving in the military during peace time can disqualify a veteran from receiving veterans preference for a federal job????

Yep, if a veteran's experience takes place during peace time and that veteran didn't serve in a war zone or "in theater" thus qualifying them to wear the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, then that veteran does NOT get veterans preference as it applies to civil service.

What does that have to do w/ the price of tea in china?

Well folks, it fucking tells us the importance having to serve in areas that could be dangerous. While millons of U.S. veterans have honorably served their country, there are hundreds of thousands who have served during peace time and don't qualify for veterans preference.

Those vets could lie, they could manufacture a story about serving in Bosnia, thus qualifying them for the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, and thus giving them a powerful thing in federal service ... veterans preference.

But most veterans are above trying to take credit for experience they didn't earn. Even if the U.S. government won't give a person who served in the U.S. military fullfilled every obligation and completed their time in the military; it doesn't give that veteran a green light to game the system to receive the veterans preference they know they deserve for serving.

I'm one of thousands of veterans who have served and don't get veterans preference.

I've had the opportunity to lie. I could simply add the Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal to the list of other medals on my ribbon rack, but I'm not slime like Hillary Clinton. Even in light of the fact that it would give me veterans preference, I'm not going to game the system.

I'm proud of my achievements I earned while I was in the Navy.



I know I can stand by that experience.

[Catherine Vincent]

106. Some of you Obama supporters that love to hate anything Clinton need help. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

107. Some Obama supporters look for any excuse to hate...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5406209&mesg_id=5414323

[zulchzulu]

109. You are correct. It is incredibly stupid that Hillary Clinton did what she did

Snipergate pretty much was a fatal blow to her campaign. That is GOP Gold.

Here is how it was stupid and politically fatal:

• If you've ever been in a scene where there was violence (I have), you can remember every detail years later and can imagine it happening like it was yesterday. Her comments about her "incident" would fall into that category. She simply lied her ass off.
• She also proved that she is so uppity on herself that they thinks the US military would endanger a First Lady and her daughter in a warzone and voluntarily fly them into a scene where all could perish.
• She repeated that story as far back as 2007 in Iowa and repeated it other times. It wasn't one event where she made a misstatement.
• She apparently has no clue that video can be used as evidence to completely blow her story out of the water.

As for Hillary acting like she's smiling at DisneyWorld when she's at the Lorraine Motel, that was pretty dumb but not fatal.

Here is how it was stupid but not fatal:

• I've been to that site and the last thing you want to do is smile and wave. It is sobering, sad and a monument to racism and hate. The museum, which was converted from the black-owned motel, is a tear jerker when you go through it. It is a death scene, not a place where you do smiling photo ops.
• Her handlers needed to remind her that the 40th anniversary of MLK's assassination and where his face was ripped off by bullets is not somewhere to be happy at.

The Bookbag thing is a yawner but shows that she has to illustrate her stories with strange stuff that only opens her up to scrutiny.

[EmilyAnne]

112. I agree! Furthermore, while this sort of silly Hillary bashing continues, I will be putting in

another 8 hours as a volunteer at the Obama HQ. I wish I could brag, but the many of the other volunteers I am working with every day are putting in so much more.
My point is that Obama's campaign is truly grassroots. Instead of complaining about Hillary Clinton, try to put in some time volunteering for the Obama campaign. Please.

We need calls to Indiana because their voter registration deadline is coming. We need calls to PA residents.
Go to the Obama website and sign up to make the calls.

If you are a PA resident, try to find your closest headquarters and see what they need. Even a donation of a pack of toilet paper or a home cooked meal for 20 people is important.

[QC]

113. They can't help it. They suffer from the same psychosis that Bob Barr, Newt Gingrich,

Dan Burton, and others suffered from in the late 1990s. They are really to be pitied.

[crankychatter]

114. visit the minority blogs and read

Better yet, talk to some Black folks...

you're completely wrong...

Clinton's disingenuousness and credibility are an issue from the Iraq War Vote... to giving Bush the green light on Iran... and countless votes in between

The campaign style speaks to character and frankly, it's indicative of a deeply flawed personality... not just policy.

[Doctor_J]

115. Agreed

The only thing encouraging about this primary campaign is that it gives me hope that we (Dems) are willing to get down in the mud with the Repukes during the GE campaign, instead of adopting our usual "high road".

[ampad]

117. Good, I'm glad you can find the Memphis photo op stupid

I'm so glad that some of you did not get offended but guess what I did. I don't need you or anyone else on a message board telling me what should offend me or not. Let me tell you that the photo op goes quite a bit deeper than just that fucking picture. I didn't appreciate the South Carolina race baiting and the Jesse Jackson remark from Bill. I didn't appreciate the "he is not Muslim as far as I know" crap coming out of the queen's mouth. In my opinion the entire Muslim rumor reeks of religious and racial discrimination. I don't appreciate her telling super delegates that Obama cannot win because he is black. That statement right there shits on everything that MLK stood for and died for. Her standing on the balcony waving and smiling was the last fucking straw for me. Maybe it wasn't such a big deal, waving and smiling at the camera. I just find it odd that she has such little faith in race relations in this country that she would utilize racism and the Rev Wright crap to try and sway Super D's. I don't think MLK would be in support of that. For her to go to Memphis for what seems to me was a fucking photo op after all the race baiting coming from her side is a joke and a mockery to me. She should of stayed her fake behind in PA her and McCain. That is why the photo op was a big fucking deal to me. It's not just the photo op it is what happened before and continues to go on with her campaign. Don't tell me what is stupid. I'm not the one crying sexism cause Obama called some woman sweetie.

[Vinca]

118. Snipergate goes to Clinton's honesty (doesn't look good).

The Memphis photo op is significant, too. Anyone who would get a big grin on their face in the spot where MLK was murdered is either dumb as a stump, heartless or so ego-driven the moment is forgotten. If she's not embarrassed by these things, I'm embarrassed for her.

[easy_b94]

120. Hillary is just tone def,,,thats all

[Bensthename]

121. Agreed, but sniper-gate is pretty bad.. Either a horrible lie or a horrible memory.

Either way she would get beat up to bad in the Gen election over it,

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

124. It's icing on the cake.

Clinton's presidential hopes are long over. But seeing her exposed as the phony hack that she is amounts to a nice case of schadenfreude.

:shrug:

[BeyondGeography]

125. So is snipergate?

That's nuts.