Obama's Appeal vs Clinton's Appeal: An Hypothesis

[kennetha]

Clinton and Obama are evidently both very strong candidates. Sometimes, it seems, Obama people can't see what draws people to Clinton and Clinton people can't see what draws people to Obama. And we get these endless bickering stupid fights.

Though I'm 100% for Cllnton. I can see the appeal of both. Here's a thought about what's appealing about each and why the one side can't see what the other side sees in its candidate.

I think a lot of what draws people to Obama is his personal narrative, his personal style and what his presidency, if it should ever happen, would represent and also what a vote for Obama says about the person casting the vote. Although I think Obama's appeal depends partly on his concrete plans and proposals it isn't at all entirely dependent on his concrete plans and proposal. He himself is a large part of his appeal, independently of his platform.

He makes white liberals feel good about themselves. He makes African Americans feel empowered. He promises something new, something different. And just by being who he is, he's almost automatically guaranteed to deliver that. His presidency would be an achievement, in and of itself. And a lot of people are drawn to the possibility of that achievement. What happens next after that first achievement surely matters too, but I don't really think its the deciding factor.

Hillary's appeal is different. If you listen to her talk even if you don't get all the details (and I suspect that most of her supporters don't. But the same is probably true for just about all voters and the candidates they support) you come away that here is a person who has spent her life thinking through public policy and fighting for the things she believes in. You get the sense that she knows her own mind, knows what she believes in and knows who she stands with and who she stands against. You get the sense that if you and she are on the same side of the issue, you can count on her spending every waking breath trying to get the things done that you want done. You get the sense with her that this isn't about the next line on her resume. It's about achieving concrete and specific things to help bring about real changes in real people's real lives. You get the sense that it isn't about symbols and poses or who she is or what electing her would "say" about America or what voting for her would "say" about you.

Bottom line, I think the people who favor Hillary probably see their vote as much less "symbolic" and "expressive" than people who vote for Obama. If you're looking for the worker fighter type, maybe Obama leaves you just a little bit cold. If you're looking for somebody to vote for who makes you feel good about voting for them, maybe Clinton isn't quite your cup of tea. And maybe people have a hard time appreciating that their own motivations and styles and attitudes aren't the only legitimate ones. (That would explain why some us can't see what others see in the candidate we don't support.)

I don't mean this to be flame bait and I don't want to make a false dichotomy. I'm sure there are lots of results oriented voters who favor Obama and lots of "expressive" voters who favor Hillary. But I do think the prevailing trend among Obama voters is symbolic and expressive rather than concrete results oriented and that the prevailing trend among Clinton voters is results oriented rather than expressive and symbolic.

[AX10]

1. Kick. Everyone should read this.

Even if you don't agree with it.

[Noirceuil]

2. You nailed it...

Hillary appeals to people who care about the issues, want a candidate who is knowledgeable on foreign and domestic policy and is a fighter. Obama's support comes entirely from people enamored with the idea of a black president; it's identity politics at its worse.

[cliffordu]

6. Ah, Bullshit.

[gcomeau]

9. For cripes sake...

...*read* the post all the way through before replying to it. You just agreed with an argument that was never made.

[housewolf]

15. "Obama's support comes entirely from people enamored with the idea of a black president" - WRONG!!!!

You are 100% wrong about this. SOME of Obama's support comes from this, just the same as SOME of Hillary's support comes from the fact that she's a woman.

But it is no more true that "Obama's support is entirely" from this group than it is to say that "Hillary's support is entirely from people enamored with the idea of a woman president."

Neither one is true.

What IS true is that SOME of Obama's support comes from those who would like to see an black president and SOME of Hillary's support comes from those who would like to see a woman president.

[BlooInBloo]

22. It's just how white folks think. Any black person who gets anywhere is the beneficiary of...

... affirmative action, and doesn't deserve what he or she has obtained. Additionally, any black person who has NOT gotten anywhere is to blame for their own laziness. It's sort of the opposite of the christian god - whereas one gets all of the credit and none of the blame, the other gets all of the blame and none of the credit. To white folks, black people are truly the devil.

EDIT: And to top it all off, they get mad at people like Rev. Wright for bitching about it. hahahaha! It's wonderful being the fox that guards the henhouse.

[kennetha]

17. I didn't say that, did I

I said I didn't want to make false dichotomies.

And it isn't all about his race anyway. It's also that "new politics" thingie which isn't at all about race.

[housewolf]

29. No, you didn't... the poster of Reply #2 did

that's who I was responding to.

I just left another post responding to you.

By the way, I appreciate your attempt to have a civilized discussion here of the candidates.

:toast:

[Yael]

25. That or,

Clinton's support is the low-information voter and those supporting Obama believe that he can actually get things done as opposed to the drama of the 50.0001% strategy of eternal gridlock.

[dkf]

3. I'm voting for Obama because he turns out to be right a lot more than Hillary does.

The two big things I've seen are the Iraq war and this election.

He sees things better, plans better, and executes better.

That works for me.

[kennetha]

18. Well on the War

since he got in the Senate he and Hillary have voted essentially the same, haven't they?

So I don't see a big difference.

An on other issues, except for healthcare, they are pretty much peas in the pod.

[dkf]

31. That is where execution comes in. Plans are nothing if they can't get approved and done.

[Johnny__Motown]

4. Hillary inherited the greatest political machine our party has ever had, along with the greatest

surrogate any candidate has ever had




She isn't a strong candidate, she just plays one on TV

[bluerum]

5. Pragmatic oratory vs. emotional oratory - an age old dichotomy. Not necessarily

a negative one.

[tishaLA]

7. Nope.

There are groups of both voters who like their candidate because of what they symbolize--it isn't accidental that women are drawn to Clinton and that African Americans are drawn to Obama--but that can only be a fraction of the electorate.

I also don't believe Sen Clinton "knows her own mind" or that policy positions play a minor role in Sen Obama's support; Sen Clinton is very calculating politically and Sen Obama has very strong positions on most issues.

What attracts me to Sen Obama over Sen Clinton is that his campaign relies upon the idea of asking people to return to their patriotic duty and doing work again, of investing themselves in political change, whereas Sen Clinton uses traditional masculinist narratives of top-down authoritativeness. Hers says that the government can be more effective when put into action; his says that the people, in action, can create effective governance.

[TheDoorbellRang]

8. I know everyone sees their candidate differently, but here's my take

Clinton = fighter vs. Obama = diplomat

Everyone can agree that Hillary is a fighter. My problem with her image as a fighter is that she never seems to win any fights. She just goes round after round after round in these never-ending fights with Republicans, and then invites us to watch these unresolved battles for four more years.

Obama's demonstrated skills lie in reframing issues so that the wildly partisan right vs. left can all agree on "core values." It's something he's been able to do all the way back to his Harvard days. Latest example was in the last debate when he was asked about his "liberal" record in the senate. He took the air out of that one when he said that the ethics reform bill that he had worked on with Coburn wasn't liberal -- every American wanted ethics reform. I'm supporting Obama because I believe he has the skills needed to bridge the gap between disparate groups and actually get stuff done.

Appreciate your thread. It'd be interesting to read the reasoning others have for their choice of candidate.

[JayFredMuggs]

40. I agree entirely

You have done a great job in expressing your view.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. My hypothesis:

A significant part of Hillary Clinton's support comes from those who have a fond nostalgia for Bill Clinton, and this factor influences their support at least as much as whatever personal qualities Hillary herself possesses. From what I see, her support is every bit as much a function of emotional choice. (And considering that she's not really achieved much in the way of concrete results as a Senator, and has few legislative accomplishments to point to, the idea that her support is 'results-oriented' is frankly a bit silly.)

[goletian]

12. hillarys appeal is her last name, obamas appeal is that hes better than she is. - nt

[kennetha]

20. Pretty simple-minded

[goletian]

32. the truth is always simple. - nt

[Arugula Latte]

11. I respectfully take issue with one of your points.

One reason I really get exasperated with Hillary is that she seems like she absolutely does NOT know who she is, nor does she know her own mind. It seems she tries to change to fit whatever the political temperature of the moment seems to be, according to her advisors and focus groups and such. Thus, one day we get Inevitable Hillary. The next day Friendly Hillary. The next day Scolding Hillary. The next day Wonky Hillary. The next day Angry Hillary. The next day Weepy Hillary ... It all seems so contrived and phony to me. She seems so contrived and phony to me.

[kennetha]

19. You're confusing style with substance

Your confusing changes in how you "pitch" the thing with the thing being pitched. That's like thinking that when Coke changes its slogan or something, it's changed its product.

[Arugula Latte]

23. I'll give you an example.

The IWR vote -- That is a prime example of Hillary putting her finger into the political wind. The media drummed up the impression that Americans were a bloodthirsty bunch looking for "revenge" against a nation that had done nothing to us. Hillary, with an eye to '08, knew damn well that Bushco. was pushing to invade for political and corporate-appeasing reasons. She went along with it because she guaged that not doing so would have branded her as a lily-livered, soft-on-terrorism, America-hating *gasp* Liberal.

She chucked her so-called ideals in a split second as soon as they looked like they'd cost her politically.

No convictions -- or at least none that she'd be willing to stick her neck out for, anyway.

[ClayZ]

34. "She seems so contrived and phony to me"!

Same here!

[quakerboy]

13. That would be a well phrased

version of the preferred Clinton framing. Fortunately we are free to think outside the box created for us by any one campaign.

[XemaSab]

14. I'm not sure that I agree with you

but I appreciate your efforts to characterize both candidates in positive terms.

Where I disagree with you is that I think Obama has enough of a popular backing to produce a sea change in this country.

One of the above posters wrote that Obama has an "ask what you can do for your country" narrative that Hillary lacks. I think this has a lot to do with his appeal in the west.

And as far as Hillary knowing what she wants, policy-wise... I feel like she DOES know what she wants but she doesn't entirely trust the voters as far as giving us the credit to appreciate her ideas... instead I think she says what she thinks will be popular, which is the essence of calculation.

[kennetha]

16. Mandates for health insurance, a "popular" idea?

Seriously, that's a political loser, but it's utterly serious policy making. She KNOWS what she's up against and she's made a no compromise proposal. And it's hard to believe that she's done that just to score political points.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. They're popular if you convince voters that the uninsured are a bunch of freeloaders. nt

[BlooInBloo]

21. And that long and storied list of Clinton results is where again?

The experience lie again, couched in pretty language. Fuck that.

[kennetha]

24. Well I didn't say that she had actually achieved anything in particular

I was saying that what appeals to the people who like her is this sense that what she is about has to do with concrete specifics. I also said that I don't think most of her supporters could really name the things they think she will achieve or say how she will do so. It's just that her self-presentation can make you believe that she's a fighter, a scrapper, that she'll spend night and day thinking about how to get things that matter done.

I wish we didn't have to have such superficial exchanges on this board. It reminds me of the freepers when that happens. Ugh.

[BlooInBloo]

26. hahahaha!

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. Please explain, then, if you can...

how what draws people to Clinton ISN'T her 'personal narrative and personal style'. If the reason people are supporting her is because of a presentation that lacks any actual substance (which you just more or less ADMITTED), then you've just rendered your entire argument null.

[undeterred]

27. Hillary is a DLC Democrat. She does things that are offensive.

While I see some positives that you have pointed out, there are lots of overwhelming negatives. Obama doesn't have a stack of negatives. He has a good personality. Sorry, but that matters. People want to actually LIKE the president and believe they he or she is TELLING THE TRUTH.

[housewolf]

28. My take on Clinton & Obama

1. I believe that we, as a nation, are in a big pot of mess and that if drastic, critical things aren't addressed and changed, it will only get worse.

2. I believe that baby boomers can't solve the problems. Rather, we, the baby boomers, have been largely complicit in the creation of the problems, along with the generation that came before us. Bill Clinton was the first baby-boomer president. He is an early baby boomer, and so is Hillary. Many/most of the people in their earlier administration and who are now their advisors are also from the same era. McCain is even older, baby boomer parents' generation - he really can't fix it.

3. The problems today are not the problems of the 90's. We need new thinking, new ideas, new vison and creatitity and a new generation to begin to resolve our issues. Baby boomers can help. We can advise and contribute in many ways. But I don't believe it's within the province of the baby boom generation to fix them. The baby boom generation made tremendous advances during our lifetimes - in technology, in medicine, in civil rights, in making progress towards bringing the world together. There is much that we can pat ourselves on the back about.

4. Obama is a baby boomer too, but he's a very late boomer, more of a transitional baby boom/gen x'er. I believe this generation of people are the ones who NEED to fix it - because their survival and the survival of their off-spring is dependent it. This generation, and those even younger, are smarter than ever, more technological savvy, less encumbered by racism and sexism, and more world-wise than any generation prior.

I think it's time to turn over leadership of the country to those younger than the early- and mid-baby boomers; those who can usher in the vision and creativity who are not so entrenched in the "ways of Washington" so that we can beging to make in-roads into some of the changes required.


I realize this may be controversial, and it is only a piece of the Hillary/Obama scenario for me. I respectfully present it for whatever its worth. Some/most of you may dismiss it out of hand. Other's may find it more interesting. But... anyway... there it is.


:hide:

[Jed Dilligan]

30. That doesn't describe me at all

In Obama I see someone who has closer to my view of life and society. Clinton seems more authoritarian and more deeply ensconced in the global power structure. I also don't buy into her narrative of "experience" as a "fighter." She was never even in office before the Senate; she spent most of her "political career" as a spouse. I think her appeal is based entirely on 1) being a woman, and hence naturally appealing to some female voters, and 2) being a name-brand associated with prosperous times, attractive to the generally ill-informed public. Also, she voted for the IWR, and I don't think Obama would have.

Clinton is also exclusionary in her politics; looking at her husband, it seems like her policies (to the degree they aren't totally to prop up the status quo) will help middle-class, employed families at the expense of needier groups.

Also, she represents to me a time when I was disgusted with politics and didn't vote at all because the parties were too much alike and too clearly opposed to me and my views.

[eallen]

36. I don't trust Hillary to roll back the "unitary executive."

She has made only minimal statements about Bush's excessive grab for executive authority. Everything in her history suggests that she will step into that authority and simply try to use it for her own purposes. I might prefer her purposes to Bush's. But that is not nearly as important at this point in time as reining in the executive in favor of the Constitution.

:hippie:

[nichomachus]

37. WTF does this mean: He makes white liberals feel good about themselves.

Seriously -- any time anyone makes blanket statements about "liberals" I get suspicious. When you add "white" and "feel good about theselves," it's even more so. Why not just say "limousine liberals?"

It sounds very offensive, as if helps people assuage some "liberal guilt." This is the sort of crap you hear from Limbaugh etc.

Maybe you didn't mean this, but it sure sounds like it. You need to explain what this statement means.

[MethuenProgressive]

38. Hillary: Person. Obama: Product.

She's real. He's well marketed.

[JayFredMuggs]

41. When is she "real"? I must have missed those times

Can you point to a moment in the last few "million words a day" she says that are "real"?

Can you list the "real" things she has accomplished as a US Senator?
Can you give us a list of her "real" positions on NAFTA in the 1990's?
Can you give us a list of the ways she brought about the Irish peace deal?
Can you tell us about her leadership as First Lady on Children's Health Care?
Can you tell us how she kept up the "real" fight for universal health insurance ever since 1993?
Can you tell us what is "real" about her stories of landing in Bosnia?
Cand you tell me her "real" feelings while she smiled and waved at the site of the MLK assassination?

[atal]

45. Hillary: Persona run by Lobbyist. Obama: Product of the People

She's a product of the past, the same old politician just in a womans skin instead of a man. She'll maintain the status quo and be a very good administrator working late into the night. Her target will very simply be to bring back the good old Bill days. Her experience to get the job done is unquestionable.


He has the perfect persona to take the nation in a totally new direction. As a leader he can inspire the people to make a change for the better. He will bridge the gap with partisan appeal and restore the standing of the United States internationally. He has done very well marketing his vision for change.

[indimuse]

39. Gore's appeal...Bush's appeal...

ding ding d ing!

[superkia]

42. I just think that our country will continue to be raped and stolen...

if we the people don't get involved in our politics, from the bottom up. We should be involved in every local election possible, if the person isn't doing for the people, vote them out and work our way up. Vote in your neighbor or some local activist in the community and get away from the typical career politician in it for a career instead of public service.

This is what I think Obama has that Clinton doesn't, not only does he talk about the people needing to be involved but he is actually getting people up off their asses and voting, talking and trying to make that change. So far in the campaign, I have see Clinton as a divider, only interested in her winning. To me, I want someone worried about the people winning, not the politician winning.

Without the people of the country involved, nothing will change at all, no matter how good of a fighter the president is. Without our direct input, we will never count to the system. We don't have lobbyists and the money that runs our country's policies, so we need to physically make the changes by our actions, not just sitting around bitching about how bad the country and our government is. We are the enablers!

[atal]

43. In conclusion Obama is a LEADER and Clinton an ADMINISTRATOR

Based on the above, the appeal for either candidate is because:

Obama

- Leader
- Diplomat
- Promises change
- Vote symbolic and expresive
- Idea of black President appealing
- The new politics free of corporate lobbyists
- Gets things done without drama and eternal gridlock
- Sees things better, plans better and executes better
- Opposed Iraq war
- Pragmatic orator
- Personal narrative and style
- Says something about person casting vote
- Obama persona appealing
- White liberals feel good about them selves
- African-Americans feel empowered
- Very strong position on issues
- Asks people to return to patiotic duty
- People in action create effective governance
- Reframing partisan core issues
- Skills to bridge gap between groups


Clinton

- Administrator
- Fighter
- Spent life thinking through public policy
- Fights for things she believes in
- Knows what she believe in
- Knows where she stands
- You can count on her to get things done
- Orientation to achieve concrete results
- Bring about real changes in real peoples lives
- Hard Worker
- Appeals to people who care about issues
- Knowledgable on foriegn and domestic policy
- Idea of woman President appealing
- Enherited greatest political machine
- Has greatest surrogate for a candidate
- Emotional orator
- Very calculating politician
- Traditional masculinist narrative
- Effective Government with action
- Nostalgia for Bill Clinton
- Support function of emotional choice
- Will spend night and day thinking how to get things done

[Texas Hill Country]

44. k&r