Challenge for Hillary supporters

[brindis_desala]

I'm confused. Please reconcile these two statements.


They're telling you, 'Oh don't worry, this doesn't matter, and it's OK if we disenfranchise Michigan and Florida, we got this deal under control. You guys just be quiet and go away,'" Bill Clinton said. "Let me tell you something. I've been in politics a long time. People don't tell you your votes don't count unless they do."


Pledged delegates are a "misnomer. The whole point is for delegates, however they are chosen, to really ask themselves who would be the best president and who would be our best nominee against Senator McCain," Clinton said. "And I think that process goes all the way to the convention."

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/news/ap/politics/2008/Apr/03/clinton_hints_at_wooing_obama_delegates.html

[elocs]

1. The biggest challenge for Hillary supporters: Reality.

Yes, reality is a harsh mistress.

[Yael]

2. *crickets*

[brindis_desala]

3. I guess we all know the answer.

Depends on the meaning of "pledged".

[Writer]

4. Well... that's how the system works. It's very similar to how the electoral college works.

People vote for delegates to represent them... however, those delegates are not always wedded to their candidates (they're only assumed to be.) As candidates drop out, for instance, those delegates can choose another candidate... or they can switch down the road.

It's simply not politically advantageous for a delegate to change. It's a system we have taken for granted during our less contested primary seasons.

[brindis_desala]

5. You have not reconciled that with Bill's statement.

[Writer]

6. All Bill is saying is that Florida and Michigan's popular votes should count...

and their delegates should be seated. In other words, let the democratic process play out in full.

[brindis_desala]

7. So pledged is not a "misnomer" it's irrelevant

[Writer]

9. Well... yes and no.

After the primary or caucuses, those delegates indeed do have the option of changing their minds all the way to the convention. I suppose one can say that, right after the primary or caucus, that it's safe to assume that a delegate is pledged to a candidate, but again the race can change between now and then, and those delegates have the right to vote for Kermit the Frog at the convention for all they care.

[brindis_desala]

12. Fine then why assert that the popular vote is relevant

since the popular WILL is not necessarily going to be one that is expressed. It's called rigging the game to try and have it both ways while dividing the party and subverting the process.

[Writer]

16. I honestly think the process will continue regardless of what Bill Clinton tells the media.

I doubt there will be any "rigging" - at least no more arm twisting than any other candidate would do in order to sway delegates.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. The popular votes should be counted and their delegates

should be seated

to do whatever they want to do regardless of the popular vote.

Sure. Makes sense to me.

[Writer]

11. Then it becomes an issue of personal ethics.

Are YOU willing to represent the popular vote?

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. That's just the point.

Bill is saying on one hand that the popular vote must not be thwarted.

Then saying on the other hand that the delegats may, if they choose, thwart the popular vote.

Take any side of any argument, so long as it benefits you -- that's the Clinton way.

[Writer]

15. You misunderstand.

Bill Clinton is simply pointing out how the system works. If you have a complaint, then it would be with a delegate who decides to switch his or her vote. It's a moral decision on the part of the delegate.

[kwenu]

17. I disagree. Bill is advocating on behalf of his WIFE and is therefore BIASED in his opinions.

[Writer]

18. I think the process continues as is regardless of what Bill Clinton tells the media.

The process has always worked this way. Delegates have always been able to change their minds all the way up to the convention.

[SunsetDreams]

20. From Post #4

From post #4 "People vote for delegates to represent them"

They are representative of the people and it is morally wrong for a candidate to suggest that they ignore the people who they represent. They are asking that voters be disenfranchized. That does not make any sense with their other arguement about Florida and Michigan. Those people voted, they want them counted.

Why don't they want people like me, who already voted to count? Why am I being disenfranchised?

[Writer]

21. Whatever the candidates say or don't say doesn't impact what a delegate decides.

I remember one convention where a delegate cast his or her vote for "The Shadow." I doubt he or she gave a hoot what any of the presidential candidates thought about his or her vote.

I don't see, however, where Bill Clinton was encouraging, much less ordering delegates to change their minds. He was explaining the process. Even if he were doing this, it's completely acceptable for him to advocate to the delegates on behalf of his candidate, because, after all, they are able to change their votes. And consider this, also: not every delegate is initially supporting the majority. A few delegates may have initially supported the losing candidate in their states. Perhaps they've "seen the light" since their primaries and have decided to go along with the majority, therefore switching their vote. It is a decision the delegatemakes.

[SunsetDreams]

24. It's still morally wrong to suggest

that they do that. It's a really good way to lose if that person should become the nominee. If she comes after my delegates, I will not vote for her. Delegates reflect the will of the people's votes. I can understand her maybe trying to go after Edwards delegates, but she needs to leave Obama's alone.

[Writer]

26. I'm very certain that Obama is courting Clinton's delegates, as well.

I think she lost one to him in Mississippi after their state convention a week or so ago.

[kwenu]

27. I have seen no evidence or suggestion that Obama is trying to court Clinton nominees.

or push the position that their representation of their voters is "flexible." I am a pledged delegate and I can assure you that being approached in such a manner is offensive. That is why the Clintons will only solidify the delegates (both pledged and super) resolve to move against them rapidly at the first appropriate opportunity.

[Writer]

28. First, there are likely many pledged delegates who post on DU.

Second, if you are already an Obama supporter, I doubt seriously Obama's campaign would need to spend energy courting your vote.

On edit: Clarity.

[4themind]

10. What about this one

"It'll be over by Feb. 5th"
Even if she assumed that she'd get the 2024(5) then, how could she know that her opponent wouldn't try just waiting until the convention regardless, superdelegates or no superdelegates (could be yet another one of her "assumptions"...).

[grantcart]

14. how would you like to be a supporter and have to answer for all the bizarre Clinton statements

[joshcryer]

19. It's pretty simple.

If you can change a pledged delegates opinion that's politics, it's within the rules.

If you don't count 10% of the population then you divide the party and hurt democracy.

Either approach is within the rules.

BTW, FL and MI are being seated, so I think the issue should be dropped. It is totally moot.

[Writer]

22. They're seating Florida and Michigan?

[joshcryer]

23. Yes, when it was announced the threads here were allowed to sink.

I think it's a huge deal but you can find it on thepolitico or google news.

FL and MI are being seated.

It's all politics but I think going after a few pledged delegates that are not going to budge or are not a big deal is a lot less of an issue than dismissing 10% of the population in two big swing states.

[Writer]

25. Actually what I'm reading is that Dean says he'll seat the delegates...

as long as the Clinton and Obama camps can come to an agreement.

http://www.thebulletin.us/site/index.cfm?newsid=19449625&BRD=2737&PAG=461&dept_id=576361&rfi=8


However, I agree that it's a very big deal to dismiss two populous states in the process.