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When it is time to give up a dream and exit, some do it more graciously than others.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 07:54 PM
Original message
When it is time to give up a dream and exit, some do it more graciously than others.
How people cope when they are faced with having to give up their political goals says a lot about their nature and character. It must be hard to judge how long to keep going and allow people to keep the good will and warm fuzzy feelings that might still be there.

Howard Dean said something we have failed to remember in his interview with Harry Smith on CBS Friday.

He said:

DEAN: “Well, you know, I’m not going to get into who said what on the telephone calls. But I think that it's important that we understand this is not, again, about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It's about a change for our country. it's about $3.50 gas prices, it’s about staying in Iraq for 100 years


It reminded me of a conversation Dean had with Al Gore before he dropped out of the race in 2004. On the night Dean was struggling about dropping out of the race, he and Gore talked on the phone. Here is what is in Dean's book, You Have the Power, about that conversation.

"So Gore didn't tell me to quit. He stayed up with me that night patiently, empathetically listened.

"Think long term", he said. "Keep your eye on where you really want to end up."

"This isn't about whether Howard Dean ends up being president of the United States. It is about the future of the country."


Dean continued:

"Al Gore had the presidency in his grasp. He was the one person who had the right to tell me whatever the hell he wanted. And only he could have been so right.

The Dean for America Campaign was about much much more than electing me to the White House. It was about reempowering people and giving them hope, and providing them with the tools to rebuild America in their own image."


A month later he formed DFA, to help provide tools for to just that, and he has tried to do so at the DNC. He did not look back, he moved ahead.

There's a danger in this campaign that will go on beyond the election. It is the obvious fact that some very important people have put themselves on the line for one campaign. They are people I have respected, appreciated, and whose books I have purchased because of that respect.

I see the danger in two blogs that have been completely become pro one campaign. There is no deviance, no discussion, just anger and divisiveness. Larry Johnson's No Quarter stunned me when I visited there today. Talk Left..is that Armando's blog...not sure..is against any of us in the wing of the party that speaks well of Obama or Dean.

Joe Wilson has surprised me as well with his no holds barred support of one campaign, and his vitriol against the other.

I am most disillusioned with Paul Krugman. I have been saving his columns to a zip drive folder for years. Now he has changed. It is too apparent that right now what he says is geared toward candidate support and not facts like his words were before.

There is a fine line to walk in a campaign. Keeping honor and dignity, keeping respect. Moving on to another role for the party if needed. Insiders can't always tell you, but others see it changing.

Dean made it clear in his interviews Friday that no one should be asked to leave the race. He said no one had that right to tell that to a candidate.

It must be hard to know when it is time. Some are able to exit more graciously than others, to move on to other goals.
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surfermaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why doesn't Obama show us the gracious way to exit
Since the states he won are small, he can never carry the big ones in the General Election.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, I forgot, only big big big states count. Forgive me.
:think:
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. She is winning the biggest state of all.






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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Wow, I missed that.
Very powerful statement.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. Damn right
Hey JTFrog, this post would make a great OP! :hi:
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
62. Damn right. Obama & the rest of America have shown her the door.
Now someone will have to throw her through it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #62
75. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Says who?
Do you really think Obama isn't going to win Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York and California?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
50. Yes Obama will win NJ.
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Johnny__Motown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. You believe California or New York will go to the repugs? Good, neither do I.
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 08:07 PM by Johnny__Motown
your argument makes no sense
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. And he is currently at 58.5 to her 41.5 in Texas
They are dropping like flies.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Why don't you tell us which big states count? Should the rest of us even bother to vote in November
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scrucon Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
76. Those states count that have the largest nos. of superdelegates.
Don't be stupid. Of course, you should vote - against McCain. It will be an act of desperation/futility if Obama is the nominee, but please do it.
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Starbucks Anarchist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Maybe he's too busy mopping your floors:
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
56. Hopefully the Floor Moppers Union doesn't find out about this
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StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Obama is a very bad person IMO. His campaign is hateful and arrogant. And if Hillary is really
finished then there would be no problem here. Obama will win anyway. So he should enjoy the competition.

Steve
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
41. Show me how Obama was hateful, and get a pony :)
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
78. The only hate that exists in the Obama's campaign is in your own mind.
Oh, and "Obama is a very bad person" reminds me of Lynn Cheney calling Kerry a "very, very bad man" -- a hyperbolic statement written with only politics in mind. You have colored your judgment and objectivity about Barack Obama. Your hatred of him, is that he is preventing your candidate from being president. I will admit that I am shaken by the bitterness by Hillary supporters (on and off line), as if it was HER NOMINATION and Obama, by having a better message, organization, and fundraising ability "stole" it from her. A lot of you folks need to take a step back and get some perspective.
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scrucon Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
82. I don't know that he is hateful, but he sure is arrogant.
If he's doing so well, I don't understand why his chorus is here urging her to get out of the race. If she loses fair and square, I also will have no problem. I just don't appreciate so many people trying to pull the plug on the democratic process.

He's not enjoying the competition. That's what the problem is. Does he want to be King, or what?
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Lucky 13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
35. There seems to be some confusion... IT'S NOT THE NINETIES ANYMORE.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. because, genius, Obama is ahead by every metric
and hillypoo's chances of getting the nomination are very, very slim. duh. And you know jackshit. Obama does better against McCain in CA and he'll do just fine carrying the big states in the general. Of course, we know why you and your ilk won't vote for him. You've made that repulsively clear, Maw.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
49. There are 5 stages to grief
Denial - Wow, how long did it take for Hillary to even admit she had a problem! At this point, her supporters admit that she is behind, but still think she has a chance. They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - We haven't seen this yet, have we? When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. My take on it
The 5 stages of grief for a candidate's supporters
Posted by sniffa in General Discussion: Primaries
Sun Mar 02nd 2008, 04:58 PM
Similar to the loss of a loved one, a candidate's supporters go through the same Kubler-Ross model of grief. The 5 stages played themselves out here when John Edwards suspended his campaign, but it was a fairly rapid process for most as Super Tuesday was right around the corner and I think that seemed to speed up the grieving process for some.

The Clinton supporters however, have been going through this cycle since February 5th, when her campaign hit the wall. This is an egregiously long time to have to go through the 5 stages of grief, but I blame Hillary Clinton for putting you through this. She pretty much guaranteed you'd be grieving until March 4, as she almost immediately pinned her game plan to Texas and Ohio. I hope she doesn't take advantage of you too much longer, and string your grief out until April 22, but hopefully Tuesday will end it.

I've been discussing this recently, and playing the armchair shrink of, "This DUer is in this stage, and this DUer is in that stage" for some time now, and I've mentioned it in a few threads. So, here it is, the 5 Stages Of Grief that I've seen unfolding since Feb. 5, 2008.

Denial - She leads national polls and leads in overall delegates.

Anger - He's an empty suit. Why aren't others seeing that?

Bargaining - I'd love to see a dream ticket.

Depression - This is so bad. I'm not even going to bother voting in November.

Acceptance - President Obama won't be so bad.

In 2004, when my guy crashed and burned in spectacular fashion, I went through the stages as well. I ended up becoming a huge Kerry backer once I reached acceptance. This year as a Kucinich/Dodd (They were my top two and would have voted for either if they were still in it come Super Tuesday) supporter, I didn't go through the stages, as I knew deep down that neither had a shot. I was sad when they left, but I knew it was coming miles away. I was moving toward Edwards and wasn't fully invested in him, so again, I didn't go through the cycles.

This is natural, and we'll get through this (well, most of us). I hope in vain this thread doesn't get out of control ( ) but I'm genuinely curious about HRC's supporters - what stage are you in?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4848697
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Well said.
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The River Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
55. Denial Trumps Logic In Camp Hillary
Are you all suffering some sort of post "Liargate"
cognitive disconnect?

The whole "can't win the big states" argument is
patently false. Do you really think Cali and NY would
NOT go Dem?

Rather than believe the math and do whats good for the Party
she has taken politics down to the level of tribal warfare.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
63. Maybe in 2004
Maybe CA went Dem in 2004, but I've been predicting for about six years now that it would be stolen by the GOP, if not in 2008, then in 2012.

After FL in 2000, I said that it was just a trial run for a bigger prize. Then, I told people that while everyone was watching FL in 2004, they would steal another state. And, they stole Ohio. I've always held that the big enchilada for them was going to be CA.

CA is not as "liberal" as some people think it is. Once you get outside of a few metro areas, it's very right-wing. You can't drive more than a few blocks without passing a mega-mega-fundie church. The one a couple of miles away from me is so big it looks like the headquarters for an aerospace company. Every Sunday, the parking lot is nothing but a sea of SUVs.

The political assassination of Gray Davis was a warmup. The voting machine companies are well entrenched here, and there was the attempt to split the electoral college vote that -- for the time being -- failed.

However, I still think that while everyone is fixated on FL and OH in 2008, the GOP is going to steal another state -- and it could be CA. Does anyone really think Karl Rove is sitting home watching Judge Judy and doing Sudoku? CA would be the jewel in his crown -- and Arnold is more than willing to help.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
80. Cause he's in first place
DUH! :silly:
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
81. Your logic is totally flawed.
Big blue states like New York, California and Massachusetts will vote for the Dem nominee in the fall, whoever that may be. Just because Obama lost those states in the primaries doesn't mean that he can't win those solidly blue states in the fall. They are too strongly Democratic to go for McCain. This constant drum beat from the Clinton camp that Obama cannot win big states is false.
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Dean is a role model for whoever does not get the nomination
Even after his mainstream support imploded in 2004, he still had a following of loyal supporters. We were bitter and we didn't want to lift a finger to help Kerry, but he pushed us to. We didn't want to join Kerry's e-mail list but Dean sent out e-mails encouraging us to sign up. A coworker who worked with Dean through AFSCME and later at the DNC said that there were no holdouts who wanted to cast a symbolic vote for him at the convention because he pushed his delegates to support Kerry. He worked hard for Kerry and for down-ballot candidates around the country in 2004, and I hope whoever doesn't get the nomination will do the same this year.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
33. Good point. He never looked backwards.
:hi:
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NJSecularist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. BTW, great post madfloridian.
I love reading your posts. I happen to agree with what you are saying here. Some candidates have a hard time giving up their dreams than others, but those who continue to hang on must consider what is at stake if they continue to do so.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. It's a hard decision.
Thanks for the kind words.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
30. im in florida too
over on the east side
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. The more I learn about Howard Dean, the more I respect him.
He's the real thing.

I've been wondering for a few days now what might trigger or induce Clinton to step down. It's hard to imagine anything that might induce her to do that, no matter how obvious it is to so many people that her campaign has been unsucessful.

Being a fighter can be a liability when your situation calls for a graceful timely exit.

I'm worried about our eventual candidate at this point.



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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. the money is drying up.
that is something that she does understand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I hope you're right, mo, on both counts. n/t
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. I don't think a lack of money will convince her...she just won't pay the bills.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
59. That seems to be happening right now.
There's a thread around here somewhere about staffers getting charges on their personal credit cards.

That's no way to fund a campaign. :(
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
61. But the MSM will pick up on it
As more and more vendors start complaining as the bills are 30 or 60 days past due, it will become a bigger and bigger story.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
51. Death of a campaign...5 stages of grief
Denial - Wow, how long did it take for Hillary to even admit she had a problem! At this point, her supporters admit that she is behind, but still think she has a chance. They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - We haven't seen this yet, have we? When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. denial- thanking the marching band.
those speeches on all those primary nights when she just droned on with her stump speech were some of the saddest things i have ever seen.
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singingbiscuit Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
79. Nice R button!
I like this. It makes more sense than the "in must" pose the R's have adopted.
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. k&r, even if I disagree on one thing...
... there must be a solution to Florida and Michigan.

Yes, many states hold late primaries and don't feel they get much of a say. The ONLY good I can see of this long primary season is that it is energizing the Democrats in the late-primary states. My father lives in NC, and he's not a regular voter. He actually claims to be a Republican because he feels Reagan's policies got him working again years ago. He works construction and there were few jobs right after I was born, within a year that changed for him. (Odd considering 1982, but hey...) But his social views are much more liberal and he is very dissatisfied with Republicans right now.

He's voting in the primary out there. He's voting for Hillary, he said, after hearing a speech of hers on television from when she was in state. And if he votes in the primary, he's more likely to vote in the GE. This is the first election he's voted in since he voted for Bush Sr. in '88. He said he will NOT vote for McCain in the GE, thinks he's too socially conservative.

-------

A redo primary in at LEAST Michigan is the only fair way to settle the question. I think Florida should get a redo as well. And I DON'T think it should be fought by either candidate. Seating just half the delegates as a penalty would work, but Obama's name wasn't on the ballot in Michigan, and I think he deserves a redo there.

It would definitely energize Florida and Michigan Democrats for the GE, and those are two crucial states. We will need that energy whoever the nominee is. If BOTH camps can keep it positive, it would be good for the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Sorry, but the states said NO to the redo. Dean told them to do it...they said no.
It is time to realize that Fl and MI will be welcomed at the convention, but they will have little say in the nominee until a deal is made...which will be after the nominee is chosen.

They knew all this when they started this in motion. All Florida had to do was act in "good faith."

They refused to do that.
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SwampG8r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
31. amen amen nm
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
13. Only leaders with vision would be able
to understand that it's about our country and not their slipping grasp on power.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Thanks Mad for another fine thread...
I may agree or disagree with your thesis...but I enjoy reading your threads anyway. LOL!

Keep the good stuff coming. Thanks!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Nice words.
Thanks.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. Your first line says everything and then some:
How people cope when they are faced with having to give up their political goals says a lot about their nature and character.

K&R
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #18
52. 5 stages of grief
Denial - Wow, how long did it take for Hillary to even admit she had a problem! At this point, her supporters admit that she is behind, but still think she has a chance. They are still in denial, thinking that somehow the superdelegates will hand it to her, when she's lost the contest. But, it's a much milder level of denial that it was back in January and February.

Anger - Well, there's plenty of that all around. This seems to be the stage that most of them in right now. That's why they are so negative. Can't wait until they are mostly out of this stage myself.

Bargaining - We saw that in the "offer" to let Obama be her VP. They tried. Once it's clearer to them that the game is over, I would expect more bargaining to occur. They can make things more difficult for the Dems and Obama. Let's hope it's more like bargaining and less like blackmail.

Depression - We haven't seen this yet, have we? When we get there, the air will just go out of the balloon. That's when Hillary will give up. Her suppporters will go quiet. This is bound to happen once the primaries are over. Her supporters may still feel they can't support Obama at this stage, but they will have stopped fighting him.

Acceptance - I am sure by the fall, most will have made it to this stage. They'll vote Democratic. Hillary's supporters are all good Democrats. They will help the party.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Nice post.
Haven't seen you around much. :hi:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
65. HEY ! ! , I'm in congressional mode here in NJ. Friday
I hosted my first fundraising dinner for Tom Wyka NJ-11, running to defeat Rodney Frelinghuysen. Raised nearly a grand.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Hey...keep up the good work!
Proud of you.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Its good to have friends like you, thanks. :wink:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. Made it an OP
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Thanks, posted there.
:hi:
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ORDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. You should make this a new thread. Excellent observations. n/t
:kick:
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. OK
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. "He said no one had that right to tell that to a candidate" - with respect to Dean, that's horseshit
Of course we have the right to tell any candidate that, especially to the losing candidate eagerly destroying the candidate that will take on McLame.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Could he and other Dem leaders be speaking out of respect for the past?
Maybe they are. I wish the tone were different, but not sure I could tell someone to get out....
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
26. Mad, in fairness - Dean's situation is nowhere near parallel to Clinton's
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 10:26 PM by karynnj
and I like Dean and am not a HRC fan! Kerry had won 13 primaries to Dean's ZERO at that point. Kerry was also ahead by as much as 20 points in the big remaining states coming next - Dean had just gotten 18% in Wisconsin to Kerry's 40% - and that was considered a state that was going to be good for him. Dean ended up with 114 delegates. It honestly didn't really matter if he dropped out then - it would have done nothing other than make Kerry wait a couple weeks to clinch - he was clearly unstoppable at that point.

Here's a link to a summary of the percents and delegates of 2004.
http://rhodescook.com/primary.analysis.html


Here, it is quickly becoming mathematically impossible - but it is so close - that I suggest the Dean book gives us an insight into why HRC is NOT yet ready to drop out. Dean writes, at that point, as though he dropped out at a point where doing so was done when he had some chance. In reality, he didn't - he was a weak third. Dreams die very hard and re-reading Dean's thoughts and what he said Gore said - it's clear Gore was giving him space and Dean was accepting a very hard reality - that was likely obvious after the first multi-state day to more objective people.

Just as he had the right to stay in as it became unlikely he would win - in case Kerry imploded (something he actually spoke of) or something else changed, HRC does too. The thing to ask of her is to stop personal attacks, versus issue ones, on Obama and to stop praising McCain.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Kerry was unstoppable from Iowa on.
Dean "screamed". He had 8 candidates forming a 527 with the express purpose of bringing him down in Iowa. And they did.

We all know Hillary is not going to win this without much destruction.

Everyone knew that Kerry would take it the rest of the way.

What I wrote has to do with being willing to tear the party to shreds.

I think you know that. Dean kept a lot of us on board for Kerry. Not a one of you ever understood that.



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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I do see that - I just think it may be pre-mature
The 8 candidates did NOT form a 527 to bring him down - that would have been illegal. The 527 was composed of mostly Gephardt UNIONS and his supporters. There were some who gave to the others, but there was also one who gave a large sum to Dean. It also was not that one ad or the Club for growth ad that did the most damage. From the tracking polls, it happened when Dean and Gephardt had a series of extremely negative ads - towards each other. It was NOT all one way. Gephardt reacted to Dean attacking him on issues like medicare.

It also was that Kerry won the support of more people face to face in Iowa. 2008 puts the accusations that it was Kerry having the Firefighters (as Dodd did) or the support of Cindy Vilsack (HRC had both) - these were great for Kerry - but the important thing was Kerry himself. It had to help to have the Rasmann reunion a few days before the Caucus. (It hurt Dean that he was shown yelling at a heckler that day.) It wasn't the scream - Kerry had already beat him 38% to 18% when the scream occurred.

As to not understanding that Dean helped, every JK group person here has said that Cleland, Clark and Dean were the most loyal and best surrogates hundreds of times. I agree with you on tearing the party apart - but I think at this point stopping the attacks and McCain praise might be sufficient. There is danger in people thinking that HRC was forced out when she could have won. (It will seriously become less possible after PA.)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-29-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. That is EXACTLY what I posted. No one should be asked to get out.
Edited on Sat Mar-29-08 11:11 PM by madfloridian
That is what Dean said clearly on Friday, that is what I just posted.

If you want to refight the Kerry stuff, do it by yourself. And the 527 involved folks from all campaigns. It happened. David Jones involved Kerry in it on C-Span.

That is what I said! No one should be asked to step down.

"Dean made it clear in his interviews Friday that no one should be asked to leave the race. He said no one had that right to tell that to a candidate."

Me:
" I wish the tone were different, but not sure I could tell someone to get out...."

So we agree.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #29
44. David Jones of the Monkees?
He is actually better known. Kerry was not involved - a person who left and never returned to Kerry's campaign was (he left when Kerry fired Jordan) - and it was you that brought that stuff up.

I was trying to make a subtler point - not countering what Dean or you said about HRC - but trying to make a point that Dean's own words vs where he was showed exactly how hard it is for someone to drop out once they ever had reason to believe it was positive.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. If you feel better rewriting history, I won't bother to argue.
I have the quotes, and the C-Span archives still had the link to the 3 hour video up last I saw.

BUT I did not mention Kerry. You did. If you want to keep arguing I will find the David Jones, not of the Monkees, quote.

My post was one that did not hurt you in any way. It did not diminish Kerry who incidentally lost when he began to pay too much attention to Clintonites.

Please stop it. My post is nothing to do with Kerry, but what I wrote is very true. The media boosted Kerry from January on as the winner. They destroyed Dean with the scream. The media now is boosting Hillary so they can get their money's worth. I fear they will join her in destroying all of us.

I hate this forum sometimes.
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bklyncowgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. Dean could have gone third party--or simply sat out the election.
Instead he was the most gracious of losers, buried his differences and became an enthusiastic supporter of John Kerry.

That is an admirable thing and I hope that the loser in this years nominating contest (and increasingly this looks like it will be Hillary Clinton) will show as much grace and class.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. I agree - he was one of the better surrogates out there for Kerry
along with Cleland and Clark.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
34. Dean and Gore both have something in common
They both ended up stepping aside and in the long run doing something productive. I'm sure both of them were devastated (especially Gore) at losing, but both have been a valuable asset to Democrats. I wish more people could see and appreciate that.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
36. From Josh Marshall, very upsetting scenario.
A problem with no solution. My question is why?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/186346.php

"Sen. Clinton gave a pretty astonishing interview to the Washington Post in which she appears to say she will stay in the race till the convention in August, where she will take her fight to the credentials committee to have the delegates from the non-sanctioned Michigan and Florida primaries seated."

..." So there it is. Since neither side now seems to think revotes are likely and the Obama campaign and the DNC will never agree to seat the delegates from the non-sanctioned primaries, Sen. Clinton seems to be saying pretty clearly that she plans on taking her campaign all the way to Denver.

By saying she'll continue through the remaining ten contests, regardless of the outcome, and implicitly, I take it, regardless of any superdelegate declarations over the next two months, Sen. Clinton is saying it's no longer about pledged delegates, or superdelegates or popular votes. It's about Florida and Michigan. Period."

Michigan primary has been declared illegal by the courts. Florida was given permission for a revote, then said they did not want one.



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
37. Dean did have things to say about the attacks.
From the CBS interview:

"DEAN: “Well, I think the candidates have got to understand that they have an obligation to our country to unify. Somebody's going to lose this race with 49.8 percent of the vote. And that person has got to pull their supporters in behind the nominee. That's our obligation, because in the end this is not about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It's about our country. We're not going to have four more years of George W. Bush, which is essentially what McCain is offering us. There's a really big difference between our candidates on these issues. And I don't believe for a moment that at the end of the day, the Democrats are going to vote for somebody who's going to put more right-wingers on the Supreme Court. But we do need to keep in mind that personal attacks now, often do have the seeds of demoralization later on. So I want to make sure this campaign stays on the high ground.”

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0308/BREAKING_Dean_wants_closure_by_July_1.html
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
38. Kick hint hint
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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
39. As long as there is the slimmest chance of her winning it,.....
she should stay in.
After Pennsylvania and North Carolina, that could change.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. Actually people are seeing her true nature now. That's good for Obama
Edited on Sun Mar-30-08 11:59 AM by madfloridian
We are more and more surprised each day where we live to hear those who worshipped the ground she walked, said we were hurting the party by supporting Obama.....NOW changing their tune.

Maybe it had to happen this way. She should stay in until she is only a caricature of that woman we once thought her to be.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 05:21 AM
Response to Original message
42. You're one of my favorite posters of all time.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
68. But....I am told I hold the record for being on the most....
ignore lists. Stuff happens like that. :hi:
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Irishonly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
48. Dean Is A Great Man
Dean is wise and would have made a wonderful president. The primary season has become ugly and I will be doing a happy dance when it is over. The MSM has shown once again how evil it is.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
72. He has shown great leadership even while having to duck for cover.
:hi:
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
53. K&R and thanks. (nt)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
73. I just watched Gore. So gracious about the court ruling in 2000.
What dark days some of these guys have been through. Some remain classy, some get nasty.

That is sad.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-30-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
74. I'm not the only one who noticed the bloggers I mentioned.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/30/23959/0993/706/487448

Once a friend of mine got banned at MyDD because she asked about bloggers discussing their paid alliances. Just like that, she was gone.

The agenda of a blogger or reporter should be truth, not loyalty. Loyalty can blind one.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
77. Dean enthusiastically endorsed Kerry, which made my admiration grow leaps & bounds.
I remember during one of the debates when it was asked "Who on stage will commit to supporting the eventual nominee?".

DEAN was the only one who raised his hand.

Then, after he dropped out, he got right behind Kerry with unbridled enthusiasm and became a ferocious campaigner for our Democratic nominee. It was then I knew I had picked the right guy initially - the one who felt passionately about America and the Democratic Party.

It was DEAN who convinced me, by example, to support Kerry - wholeheartedly.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
83. To the best queen bee ever, great post. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Heh heh you saw that, too? First time I was ever called that.
I keep lowering my expectations, but they are on the floor already. :hi:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-31-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. It was quite the compliment for how effective you are!
:hi:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-01-08 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
86. Hillary is spreading so much division and hatred.
It is time.

She is blaming Obama for stopping the FL revote, but it was her own co chair who did it.

Lies.
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