A bucket of ice water on the debate

[JMDEM]

All of this ranting and raving going on here may be completely pointless.

If Obama or Hillary are shown to have a lead in October, do you really think the neocons and military industrial complex are going to stand idly by?

I'd expect that we would see some sort of false flag operation to instill fear in the populace, perhaps followed by an attack on Iran. McCain becomes a shoe-in -- if Bush even lets go of power. Rove has already (repeatedly) said that national security would win the election for McCain.

And what have the Dems done to counter any such move? How about a law out of Congress that Bush cannot attack Iran without Congressional approval? Whoops -- that already failed. How about focusing on how Bush has completely failed to implement the recommendations of the 9/11 commission to keep us safe? Not a peep out of either candidate.

The entire Democratic party is completely vulnerable on this issue. Our butts are exposed, and the neocons are already putting on their steel-toed boots.



Edited to change Obama and Hillary to Obama or Hillary in second paragraph

[SoCalDem]

1. Surely Hillary will have dropped out by October..or will she be a Super-Huckabee

following Obama & Mccain around..demanding to be heard :)

[OzarkDem]

3. Obama has zero skill or gravitas on this issue

Like Bush, he has remained incurious about the ME, never holding hearings on Afghanistan, visiting, what, 1 NATO ally.

Disparage Clinton all you want, she has at least traveled to foreign countries, knows their leaders and their politics and has the respect of our military leaders.

Can't say the same for Obama.

[VolcanoJen]

5. So at least now you admit she "traveled" to foreign countries.

35 years of passport stamps, that's what America needs.

And don't be so disingenuous... you know Obama has the respect of a cadre of military leaders, as well. After SnoopyGate, I'd be embarrassed to keep standing behind her during her flag-waving military photo-ops.

Honestly, Ozark, you're so completely full of it in so many way.

[OzarkDem]

14. And what has Obama done? Nothing

All that experience in the Springfield state house isn't going to help.

Clinton and her husband both know foreign leaders and have their respect. It would be much easier to have a leader who knows our allies.

[VolcanoJen]

16. So it's your contention that foreign leaders wouldn't "respect"...

... the President of the United States unless they already knew him/her?

That's another dynastical argument that this Democrat isn't buying. Your argument makes one wonder how we ever got this far as a nation, if a prerequisite to the Presidency is the intimate knowledge of current world leaders. Isn't that a two-way street, though? Should the American President "respect" foreign leaders yet-to-be-elected?

The world isn't static. Period.

[OzarkDem]

22. What is best for the country? What would foreign leaders prefer?

They've gone from having a US president they trusted and respected to an evil jackass. Which will they prefer to work with - the senator and wife of the president they respected and trusted, a new guy they aren't familiar with and will have to learn if he's trustworthy, or another member of the same team as the evil jackass.

[VolcanoJen]

23. They certainly wouldn't prefer the guy from the same team as the evil jackass.

But you've not convinced anyone that foreign leaders a) respect Hillary Clinton and b) are worried about Obama.

And again, I'll make the point you blew off... the world isn't static. Leaders come and go. Times change. We're in the thick of it, right now.

[OzarkDem]

24. so you think its better to give them the rookie?

No thanks, I place a higher value on foreign policy and working with our allies.

Even that is academic, the odds of Obama surviving the GE against GOP hardball is slim to none.

[VolcanoJen]

25. Hillary's a rookie at foreign policy, too.

You've bought into her myth hook, line and sinker, and while that's your preogative, people stopped accepting Clinton's infallibility and inevitability in January. Hillary didn't negotiate the peace in Bosnia, she didn't negotiate the peace in Northern Ireland. You know this now, beyond any reasonable doubt, as the "vetting" of Clinton has shown, and yet you continue to talk about her vaunted talents during two of the most serious foreign policy crises in her husband's presidency. Her foreign policy experience is a myth, and the only interaction she had with actual world leaders was at state dinners. Nothing anyone could say is going to knock you off your soapbox. You're kind of impossible.

As far as Obama surviving the general election, enjoy voting for McCain, then, I guess. We could really use your help in the general, but knowing you as long as I have, I imagine you'll be spending the most important election of our lifetimes on the sidelines because Hillary Clinton won't be our nominee.

[merh]

13. yes, we heard about the snipers

:scared:

[truedelphi]

19. Your memory is awful short there, pardner.

Obama led an attack brigade right into the thickest fighting ever seen in Bosnia!

[ClassWarrior]

2. Yes, give up. It's hopeless. Bow down to our Rape-Publican overlords.

:eyes:

NGU.

[VolcanoJen]

4. Christ, I can even see a "Plan Jericho" taking place.

No kidding. :-(

[helderheid]

6. It's a deep fear of mine. I'm trying to remain hopeful.

[Swamp Rat]

7. "It's the economy stupid."

:D

[cali]

8. Any law out of Congress stating that bush cannot attack

Iran without Congressional approval, flies in the face of the Constitution. It's pretty pointless with a prez like bush.

And I think you're forgetting a couple of things: By November it is very, very likely that the economy will be in far worse shape than it is now and Iraq will likely be an even bigger mess. Even a false flag operation would do little to boost McCain if that's the case.

[VolcanoJen]

11. I see it that way, too.

Since, say, Hurricane Katrina, I've always wondered why everyone seems to assume that some awful attack would be "good" for Bush. Why the hell would it be? Wouldn't most Americans immediately blame him for sleeping on the job?

I swear, I don't see how McCain wins this thing in November, fake-flag attack or not.

[donheld]

12. You are forgetting

Bush doesn't care about the economy or the constitution.

[donheld]

9. That will not surprise me at all

They have a lot to lose and they're not going to give it up easily.

[Life Long Dem]

10. Seems to be the current news though.

[merh]

15. cross link

discussion of Obama's foreign policy here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5302872

[JMDEM]

17. A lot of the posts missed the point

It won't matter whether it is Hillary or Obama in November if a false flag op has been pulled and war with Iran has started. The fearful American public will knee-jerk McCain into office.

Our candidates need to be PROACTIVE on this issue and really raise the point that Bush has failed miserably in protecting the country. Then if such a thing comes down, we can say "told you so" rather than try to pretend to be the most militant in response -- a game they could never win with McCain.

[VolcanoJen]

21. I don't agree at all.

Any attack on this nation, or any false-flag op, and the blame will squarely rest at the feet of Most Unpopular President Ever.

2008 does not equal 2004. America has had years now to hone its national bullshit detector.

[totodeinhere]

18. If that scenario plays out, hopefully this time the American people...

won't fall for it.

[loyalsister]

20. Yes!

How about also making sure that the senator who is not the nominee can operate from a position of strength.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Well it was pretty damn close in 2004 and we didn't see that happen

So no, I'm not too worried about it.

[shimmergal]

27. One of my worries too. . .

and in fact, I doubt the PTB are all that pleased with McCain either. In spite of his seven years of genuflecton toward the PNAC and religious right crowd, he's still not one of them. We need to pay VERY close attention to his "selection" of a VP candidate, because I'm sure he'll be pressured to pick someone Bush & Co. like better as their legatee.

Looking ahead at what could happen is scary!

[Occam Bandage]

28. Wow, false-flag tinfoil. I rather enjoyed its temporary absence.

[JMDEM]

29. Thanks for bumping my tinfoil post! nt

[Occam Bandage]

30. At least you admit that it is wholly without merit.