Should Kerry (and Democrats) push for the Assault Weapon Ban renewal?

[RoeBear]

Should Kerry push for the Assault Weapon Ban renewal even if it means it could fire up voters who might otherwise stay home on election
day similar to what happened in 1994?

For reference:
http://www.awbansunset.com/history.html

"The Federal ban on "assault weapons" became a top priority of the Clinton administration in early-1994, and was passed by a very narrow margin (216-214) in the House of Representatives (where the most resistance was expected). On September 13, 1994, about a month after being passed by the Senate, the "Crime Bill" (which included the ban) was signed by the president.

A few months later, Democrats were eviscerated at the polls, losing nine seats in the Senate, and a whopping 54 seats in the House of Representatives, handing over control of Congress to the Republicans. Among the casualties was then House Speaker Tom Foley (who, thanks to some last minute rule-breaking and arm-twisting, was largely responsible for the ban passing in the House); a district tossing out a Representative who holds such a high-level position of seniority and leadership in Congress was quite a rare event. In any case, President Clinton stated that 20-21 of the seats lost in the House were directly due to their votes on the ban. Considering that the Republicans' post-election majority was only 14 seats, it is clear that Clinton's "assault weapons" ban cost his party control of the House.

[solinvictus]

1. Hell no...

Look at the Thousand Mom March last weekend. Gun control is a losing issue for the Democrats and if Kerry can't see that, he's not paying attention. The Brady Bunch, VPC, and the Million Mommies are on the defensive and have been since the 2001 terrorist attacks.

[sangha]

2. Nice wedge issue

Thanks for bringing it up.

[solinvictus]

3. Gun Rights

It's only a wedge issue when the closet (and not so closeted) totalitarians in the Democratic party start trying to limit my rights. If you don't want a gun, don't buy one! If you don't want a semi automatic Kalashnikov clone, don't buy one! The problem with this country is you can't mind your own business. You can't buy guns in New York and I can't mail order porn in Tennessee because some asinine control freak in each state decided to legislate my life choices.

[IndianaGreen]

11. Gun rights are a civil liberty

The gun grabbers live comfortably in the fancy suburbs and drive their fancy SUVs and could care less about those of us that live in the cities. Dial 9-1-1 and see how long before you see a police cruiser!

[sangh0]

18. "gun grabbers"

Are there any right-wing slogans you won't embrace?

[FeebMaster]

19. "Gun grabber" isn't a right wing slogan. (nt)

[RafterMan]

25. IG is a right-wing sloganeer?

HAHAHAHA! Heh.

Good one.

But wait a minute...come to think of it, more and more people on the right are shouting, "Out of Iraq, Now!". Maybe you're on to something.

[solinvictus]

34. Thank you!

Exactly; the majority of them are upper class and have no inkling as to the reality of having to use physical violence to defend yourself or your loved ones. I get so sick of the gated community Mercedes M-class set telling me what I should do.

[Leilani]

64. Dems on guns are like Repubs on abortion

Nobody has to own a gun, & nobody has to have an abortion.

But there are some people who feel the need to tell everyone else how to live.

And guns is really more of a right because of the 2nd amendment.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. Well

I really dont have the proper info to decide...did crimes with these weapons drop after the ban was enacted? If they did not then I would say there is no point.

[Mattforclark]

5. I thought the ban doesn't do anything anyway

There's no point in just renewing it.

If they are going to do anything, they have to pass a
"strengthened" version. There is much better chance of that happening if we can, say, take back the senate and maybe even take a few house seats.

[Lefty Pragmatist]

6. Suicidal issue

The whole banquet of gun control issues should go in the trash until we have a 5 seat lead in the Senate and a 15 seat lead in the House. In the flyover states this is pure poison for the left. Stay away from it.

The Neocons taught everybody a lesson: stay on a simple message, rent a likeable front man, don't overreach, and you can get *much* more than you might dream. Just take the openings as they are offered.

[Hippo_Tron]

36. EXACTLY!

It has so many loopholes that people can just get the same guns with slightly different modifications anyway.

[Bombtrack]

7. This is a disgracefully loaded and misleading poll

50 fucking percent of American's want stricter gun regulation, 10 percent want lighter gun regulation. Take your idiotic NRA pimping polls and stick them up your ass.

Kerry already has stated he's for the renewal. All we need is an actual flip flop to fuel THAT election issue of Kerry being or not being a flip flopper. How about making a stupid poll about whether Kerry should flip flop on his gun postion.

[fujiyama]

8. The question isn't

whether Kerry will or should support it. That's a given.

The problem is vocal support for the ban, will NOT help him in any way. Take Bill Clinton, for example. He was smart enough to never make it much of an issue while he was campaigning. Gore and Clinton both had very similar views on gun control, yet Gore had a much tougher time with that issue than Clinton.

I myself am pretty ambivilant on the issue. I suppose I would support the renewal of the AW ban. I would also close gun show loopholes, and keep it at that.

I'm not terribly fond though of theatrics by those such as Diane Fienstien, who is very gung ho on gun control, but is a corporate whore in every other sense.

[RoeBear]

13. Nice 'progressive' response...

...I doubt that you would ever call a woman's opinion "whoring' for whatever. But you have no qualms accusing a man of 'pimping'. In this case you've accused a black man of 'pimping'. Nice.

Think before you type.

[sangha]

22. Nice try, but

there's a history on DU of calling female Bush* apologists in the media, "whores". There's also a history of saying that white male republicans are "pimping" for Bush*.

Think before you type.

Physician, heal thyself!

[Delano]

29. The comment is right on even if the wording is bad.

This is a deceptive push poll working from the VERY flawed assumption that the majority doesn't support a ban on these hand-held WMDs.

Banning all handguns is not a popular idea in this country. Banning assault weapons is.

Maybe YOU should've thought about making a more objective poll before you wrote it.

[exDinosoar]

42. Popular opinion is your measure of a good idea?

Popular opinion wants to ban gay marriage too. Is that what you want?

[Delano]

45. Of course not.

The premise of the thread is that supporting an extension of the assault weapons ban would be a liability. For Bush, it might be since gun nuts are a big part of the GOP base. For Kerry, it wouldn't because even though there are gun owners on our side, they are generally more tolerant of sensible limits on gun ownership.

My personal opinion is that no civilian needs a handgun. You want guns in case we need to overthrow a tyrrany? Keep rifles, something that can't be concealed. Handguns are all about crime and murder.

However, I realize that popular opinion would not allow an all-out handgun ban here at this point, so I accept sensible limits, as do many gun owners. It's called compromise.

Popular opinion says that murder should be illegal. Popular opinion happens to be right a lot of the time, just not always (just when it goes against MY opinion ;) )

[exDinosoar]

47. no civilian needs a handgun

Only those that carry a sign which declares that they are unarmed can make that statement with teeth.

[Delano]

48. There are other ways to defend oneself

A handgun is simply the most cowardly, and thus the most popular in our society.

[FeebMaster]

49. Defending yourself with a handgun is cowardly?

I've always considered handguns to be at the top of the list of good ways to defend yourself. Sure they may lack the stopping power of a rifle or shotgun, but they are far more concealable making it easier to have one on your person.

What other ways of defending yourself are preferable to a handgun?

[Delano]

50. Number one

Is being aware of one's surroundings and avoiding stupidly dangerous situations.

[FeebMaster]

51. and when you wind up in a life threatening situation anyway? (nt)

[Delano]

52. Statistics show owning a handgun is less likely to help than to harm you.

I don't need one, don't want one.

What are you going to do when you're 80 and you're reflexes and vision and upper body strength are all shot to hell anyway? Even if you have a gun, you won't be able to use it...


I've gotten this far without one, so has half our population. I think I'll continue along the path I've chosen.

[FeebMaster]

53. Yes 43 times more likely to harm you I'm sure.

"I don't need one, don't want one."

Good for you. A lot of people feel differently.


"What are you going to do when you're 80 and you're reflexes and vision and upper body strength are all shot to hell anyway? Even if you have a gun, you won't be able to use it..."

I'm not 80 and I won't be for some time. Most of the population isn't 80 either. Not to mention, a fair number of 80 year olds are perfectly capable of firing a handgun with enough proficiency to defend themselves.

"I've gotten this far without one, so has half our population. I think I'll continue along the path I've chosen."

That's your choice. No one wants to force you to own a handgun if you don't want to. You, however, are advocating restrictions for those who would choose to own one.

[Delano]

54. Yes.

Because a lot of otherwise law-abiding folks get drunk and do strupid things witgh guns, leave them about for kids to play with etc.

The thing is I'm sure you're well aware of the reasons for gun control and the fact that it works well in most othern western democracies.

Maybe you're too paranoid about crime, or just too selfish to even acknowledge it.

There are a lot of things that are illegal to own because they could be a danger or detriment to society. An atomic bomb, or a vial of anthrax, for example. Hell, nobody ever got killed by a joint and that's illegal too.

[FeebMaster]

55. A few people do stupid things, so we all have to suffer.

"Because a lot of otherwise law-abiding folks get drunk and do strupid things witgh guns, leave them about for kids to play with etc."

And you're calling me paranoid?

"The thing is I'm sure you're well aware of the reasons for gun control and the fact that it works well in most othern western democracies."

I'm aware of the claims of gun grabbers. That is I'm aware of the occasional thing they say that isn't a nuclear or biological weapons straw man, or an attempt at guilt by association with the classic NRA talking points line, or the ever enjoyable penis references. As for gun control working well in other western democracies, well I guess that depends on how you define working well.


"Maybe you're too paranoid about crime, or just too selfish to even acknowledge it."

This coming from the fellow who wants everyone's rights to be restricted because of the actions of a few and the potential actions of everyone else. I'm not paranoid about crime in the slightest. I don't know what you mean about being too selfish to acknowledge it.


"There are a lot of things that are illegal to own because they could be a danger or detriment to society. An atomic bomb, or a vial of anthrax, for example. Hell, nobody ever got killed by a joint and that's illegal too."

The always classic "other stuff is illegal, let's make even more stuff illegal" argument. Why doesn't it ever occur to anyone that some of that other stuff, like the joint that never killed anyone, shouldn't be illegal.

It's a shame McFeeb's Law hasn't caught on, but where would the gun control movement be without its nuclear and biological weapons straw men? They be reduced to endless penis references and cries of "NRA talking point!" What I'm trying to say is we were discussing handguns not nuclear weapons and anthrax.

[Delano]

57. I'm so sleepy...

and I've never heard the penis stuff you're mentioning, and I don't fault you for using rhetoric that echoes "nra talking points" you're on the same side, and that's fine. I don't see this as a left-right issue per se.

"This coming from the fellow who wants everyone's rights to be restricted because of the actions of a few and the potential actions of everyone else. I'm not paranoid about crime in the slightest. I don't know what you mean about being too selfish to acknowledge it."

My way of looking at it is that you are being selfish because it's all about YOU and YOUR gun, society be damned. My concern is about the society at large, not ME. Hell, I as an individual could be KILLED as a direct result of gun control, as you stated, but I still believe that overall, the society at large would be safer and better off with better gun restrictions.

If you think it's about some sort of a power trip on my part. Having lived in nearly gun-free countries for years and living here, I felt that the safety and social stability there was something we should aspire to.

If the endless chaos caused by guns and their owners gives you some sort of pleasure, by all means continue to support it.

USA: 20,000 handgun murders/year, population of 280 mil.

Japan: 300 murders of any kind/year, population 120 mil.

The more egalitarian aspects of Japanese society paired with the lack of guns has let to a society where a girl can walk the streets of any large city alone in the dead of night without fear.

Even the suburbs here can be scary in broad daylight.

[FeebMaster]

58. Pick a gun thread

"I'm so sleepy...and I've never heard the penis stuff you're mentioning, and I don't fault you for using rhetoric that echoes "nra talking points" you're on the same side, and that's fine. I don't see this as a left-right issue per se."

half the posts will be gun grabbers with nothing but penis references with the occasional WMD straw man and cry of NRA talking point tossed in for good measure. I don't use rhetoric that echoes "NRA talking points" because I'm not a member of the NRA nor do I agree with their policies. We've had 70 years of increasing gun control in this country. Where was the NRA? Compromising away people's rights the whole time. For all the talk about how extremist the NRA is, they certainly don't seem very interested in getting rid of any of the current federal gun laws except for maybe the assault weapons ban.

It's simple, really. Without the constant threat of more gun control and the occasional new gun control law being passed, the NRA couldn't survive. They rely on donations from members and donations from members are at their highest when there's new gun control lurking on the horizon.


"My way of looking at it is that you are being selfish because it's all about YOU and YOUR gun, society be damned. My concern is about the society at large, not ME. Hell, I as an individual could be KILLED as a direct result of gun control, as you stated, but I still believe that overall, the society at large would be safer and better off with better gun restrictions.

If you think it's about some sort of a power trip on my part. Having lived in nearly gun-free countries for years and living here, I felt that the safety and social stability there was something we should aspire to."

Well, I'm not a gun owner so you can hardly say this is about MY gun. I'm concerned about society too, especially the individuals that make up that society. I think both individuals as well as society at large would be safer and better off with fewer gun restrictions.


"If the endless chaos caused by guns and their owners gives you some sort of pleasure, by all means continue to support it.

USA: 20,000 handgun murders/year, population of 280 mil.

Japan: 300 murders of any kind/year, population 120 mil.

The more egalitarian aspects of Japanese society paired with the lack of guns has let to a society where a girl can walk the streets of any large city alone in the dead of night without fear.

Even the suburbs here can be scary in broad daylight."

Your numbers are pure fantasy. There are a total of around 30,000 gun deaths in the United States every year. Most of them are suicides and less than a thousand are accidents. The total gun murders are around 11-12,000 a year so you've at least doubled the number of handgun murders.

As for Japan, well, you're welcome to argue that sort of thing out with the people in the dungeon who love to compare murder rates and other statistics. I'm not one of them. You can hardly put Japan and the United States side by side and say "see no guns in Japan hardly any murders either."

Consider the number of guns and gun owners in the United States. Hundreds of millions of guns and tens of millions of gun owners. With less than 15,000 gun murders a year, most of them directly related to the war on drugs, you can hardly say the United States has a gun problem.

[JayS]

56. "avoiding stupidly dangerous situations"

How does your number one cover things like being in your own home? We have had a lot of "hot" break-ins lately. Should I just ask the attackers to please leave if this happens to me?

[Delano]

60. In a confined space like a living room...

... a baseball bat can be just as, if not more effective than a handgun, and takes less time to load & prepare (or remove locks if you have kids).

I'm all for cracking the skulls of intruders, by the way.

[JayS]

61. I don't think I would want to try my batting skills against...

...multiple, most likely armed, attackers in a confined space.

There is no need to load and prepare my handgun; it already is.

[Delano]

62. Home invasions aren't all than common.

And I hope you don't have kids in the house with that loaded gun laying around.

[JayS]

63. They are getting very common down here but not in my...

...neighborhood. They mainly prey on illegal aliens, drug dealers, and the like. Basically anyone that tends to stay away from the police and deals in cash.

My area sees just the random break ins, usually when the house is unoccupied.

[IronLionZion]

9. most people who support the ban don't understand it

for one thing it doesn't ban assault weapons. They are already banned by older laws and there are a ton of background checks to get a pre-ban assault weapon legally.

[FeebMaster]

12. There are no extra background checks for buying a pre-ban

assault weapon as compared to buying a post-ban assault weapon or any other rifle or shotgun.

[IronLionZion]

14. I thought you couldn't buy a post-ban assault weapon

The people I know with assault weapons, have old ones made before the 80's. And if you want to buy one of those, there are stricter checks and longer wait period.

[FeebMaster]

15. I believe you are referring to the 1986 ban on

the civilian production of machine guns. In 1986 Reagan banned future production of civilian machine guns meaning that anything not registered before the cutoff date of May 19, 1986 could never be registered by a civilian. Buying a machine gun (or any item covered by the National Firearms Act) involves a bunch of stuff that buying a regular gun does require like submitting fingerprints and photographs of you and getting your chief law enforcement officer's permission. It also takes a lot longer than buying a regular gun, months at least.

None of this, of course has to do with the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994. Pre-ban weapons with the offending features (usually bayonet lugs and a flash suppressor or a threaded barrel) are still legal to buy and sell just not to manufacture for civilians (government agencies can still buy them new). Post-ban weapons, without the offending features that would run them afoul of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban are quite legal and can be bought like any other gun. They are the same weapons as the pre-ban guns only they lack enough of the features to define them as assault weapons.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. Where's the 'Other' option?

Why 'push' a controversial issue when your opponent is busy imploding on several other issues?

:shrug:

[genius]

16. Misleading questions. He'll win by renewing it. Lose by not renewing it.

Check the facts. The vast majority of Americans favor it.

[FeebMaster]

17. The vast majority of Americans think it bans machine guns.

The vast majority of Americans are idiots.

[dpbrown]

21. genius is correct. win by renewing, lose by not renewing

The majority of Americans don't want for themselves some artificial extension of their phallus, nor do they feel safer knowing that their insecure and unendowed neighbor craves weapons the only purpose of which is to kill people, possibly them. The interpretation of the Second Amendment as providing a vehicle for the population to provide for the common defense or throw off the yoke of oppression has been perverted by gun-nuts to accommodate the nonsense accumulation of needless weapons, none of which would stop the government, and the accumulation of which is geared to the opposite of the common good. Bringing this issue up here is a magnet effort to give freepers something to use as a wedge issue on DU.

[FeebMaster]

23. Where would the gun control movement be without

penis references? It's a good thing for the rest of us they're so damn incompetent. They've really lost their steam since the Republicans became the party of gun control.

[-..__...]

20. There's no need for it to be renewed.

The ban should never have been enacted in the first place.
Other than gun owners and gun-grabbers, very few Americans are even acutely aware of the AWB.

[FeebMaster]

24. I'd just like to say it again, since it bears repeating.

The Assault Weapons Ban has nothing to do with machine guns.

[DaveSZ]

26. Of course not

I thought he wanted to win?

;)

[DaveSZ]

27. I'll go further:

The Democrats will remain a minority party in Congress as long as they push gun control legislation that targets law abiding citizens instead of criminals.

This ban has totally fucked our party in rural and Southern states like Montana or West Virginia.

The "gun grabber" label fucked Al Gore in 2000, and cost him many states.

Dianne Feinstein wanting to ban every gun in the US and melt them down is no different form Justice Scalia wanting gay people to remain criminals for having sex with each other.

P.S.

Russ Feingold is my hero - he voted against the Patriot Act, and the AWB.

[Delano]

28. Yes. It is NOT a losing issue.

Most people don't want to ban all handguns, but I'm reasonably sure that most people don't want citizens walking around with AK-47s. There is NO lefgitimate use for such a weapon.

[JayS]

30. I am sure that those people would also think that the assault...

...weapons ban is all about machine guns and guns that could saw down a redwood in two seconds flat. This would be consistent with what is currently on John Kerry's website. At the right moment the right wing media will be more than happy to point out such misconceptions to the general public. This won't do much for us now will it?

Just for kicks, this is what I posted to John Kerry's website:

****************************************************************
I have been trying really hard to support John Kerry. He was not my pick, Edwards was. I knew little about Kerry before he decided to run for President. The more I find out about him, the less I like him. I came to this web page hoping to find a reason to like him. His policies on firearms and crime have been among the biggest issues for me. I see him posing with a shotgun as if that means he wishes to convey the message that he believes the 2nd Amendment is about an individual right to own firearms and not a collective one. He uses information provided by the Brady Bunch that he knows, or should know, is either incorrect or misleading. His work against the "lawsuit immunity bill" shows that he either does not read bills or is too entrenched in politics to vote for what is fair.

I understand that when you are in politics you have to make statements you know are patently untrue but Kerry goes overboard.

It is my hope that Kerry, if elected, will adopt an approach to fighting gun crime like that found at www.psn.gov, will realize that our approach to fighting the trafficing of illegal drugs has failed in every way except to create an efficient and resilent network that carries not only drugs and other contraband, but guns, and makes our streets a war zone of competing gangs. So, Mr. Kerry, while you are out blaming the NRA for all of our society's ills and embracing the Brady Bunch as our savior please take a moment to consider doing something effective to combat gun violence instead of spending time on red herrings like the "assault weapons" ban.

And the link I will post below will show that there are bigger things to worry about than some low power imitation military weapon. Guess what caused this big blast. Ammonium Nitrate. Also known as Fertilizer.

[Delano]

31. Again, you are assuming that the vast majority of folks are obsessed

with gun issues. They are not, and the assault weapons ban (already in effect) leaves gun nuts plenty of other deadly weapons to buy legally (and conceal, and leave around the house for kids to play with etc...

There are a lot more people who really don't care than there are on the pro and anti-gun sides.

[JayS]

32. I am sure that most people do not care about gun issues but...

...there are powerful groups funded by people that do. Pressing for the renewal of a ban that does nothing will provide ammunition to those that do not wish John Kerry to get elected. We have bigger fish to fry.

[Delano]

35. Taking a position on ANYTHING will cause opposition

That's why they are ISSUES. There are people on both sides of them. Not extending the ban would anger just as many people.

You are not being objective, letting your pro-gun agenda warp your thinking.

[JayS]

40. Thanks for stating the obvious. The ban is a petty little battle...

...that is not worth fighting.

You are not being objective, letting your ANTI-gun agenda warp your thinking.

[exDinosoar]

44. Gun nuts?

People that enjoy target and sport shooting are gun nuts? How very judgmental and anti-liberal of you to dehumanize them for their choice of recreation.

[exDinosoar]

43. Sport shooting is legit

legitimate is in the eye of the beholder. Forcing your own value judgements on others is not a liberal concept.

[Piperay]

33. NO way...

that's a losing issue, best to let it go. :think:

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[JHBowden]

37. The question is loaded.

The AWB is not more important than who wins the election, but I don't see why Kerry shouldn't support it.

[FeebMaster]

39. Why should he support it? (nt)

[Hippo_Tron]

38. This could've been an issue that Kerry could've slamfucked Bush on...

But I think he missed his chance. When the ban was proposed in congress Bush had plans to initially support it but then changed his mind. Unfortunately, Kerry also pledged his vote. If Kerry had opposed the ban outright, he could've run ads saying that Bush wants to take away your guns. Gun-nuts who would usually be out for Bush would be out in mass numbers to support Kerry and so many "safe" Bush states would be in play that he would have no idea what to do.

[dolstein]

41. I voted no

For the simple reason that the Democrats don't have the votes in the House to pass this. And even if they HAD the votes in the House to pass it, they still couldn't, because the Republican leadership would prevent the legislation from ever coming to a vote.

[MAlibdem]

46. let's shift the debate...

to the culture of fear and death in this country as opposed to guns

allowing people to responsibly own guns isn't the problem, it's a culture that favors punishment to rehabilitation and ghettoization to helping people.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. Don't worry, Kerry hasn't the courage to push for it.

He'll sell out on this like everything else. If he moves any further to the right he'll be wearing the left leg of dumbya's shorts.