centrists - so, this "running to the middle" thing...

[ulysses]

It's been implied, on LWolf's "here's a problem" thread, that Kerry's recent statements on teacher standards are part of his campaign's run to the middle ground. Is that true, and if so, how much more of this happy campaigning on the backs of traditional Dem supporters can we expect? Who's next, or are teachers Kerry's Sister Souljah, sufficient to put to rest any fears that Kerry might be a liberal?

[sangh0]

1. Pretty weak

IMO, using LWolf's opinion as some sort of representation of all of DU, all Dem voters, or any group that includes more than LWolf himself, is pretty weak.

And since you were so bothered about how I didn't respond to your question about Kerry's raising standards that you had to re-ask it in another thread, where I told you he hasn't proposed to raise the standards of any teachers who are currently certified, would it be gauche of me to ask when you will admit that Kerry hasn't called for raising the standards of teachers?

[ulysses]

3. LOL!

I'm beginning to think you have a thing for me, sangha. :D

IMO, using LWolf's opinion as some sort of representation of all of DU, all Dem voters, or any group that includes more than LWolf himself, is pretty weak.

1. LWolf is a she.
2. I didn't say it was her opinion, and in fact it wasn't. Here's the post. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x522593#523959
3. Nowhere did I say that the opinion expressed was representative of anyone - in fact, I asked.

Then, you knew all this.

sophist:
1 capitalized : any of a class of ancient Greek teachers of rhetoric, philosophy, and the art of successful living prominent about the middle of the 5th century B.C. for their adroit subtle and allegedly often specious reasoning
2 : PHILOSOPHER, THINKER
3 : a captious or fallacious reasoner

where I told you he hasn't proposed to raise the standards of any teachers who are currently certified

(emphasis added) You said no such thing, friend. Show me the post.

would it be gauche of me to ask when you will admit that Kerry hasn't called for raising the standards of teachers?

Gauche? No. Premature, but not gauche.

[sangh0]

5. Dodging the question

I noticed that while you did imply that Kerry will, in the future, propose a rasing of standards for teachers, you completely failed to admit that your prior claims about this were incorrect.

But I'm sure you're predictions of the future are more accurate than your predictions of the past.

[ulysses]

8. from the Kerry website.

""Higher Teacher Pay for Higher Standards” John Kerry believes that we cannot successfully improve public education without paying our teachers like the professionals that they are. Kerry’s proposal will provide higher pay for teachers in exchange for implementing higher standards. In order to qualify for funding, school districts will have to submit a plan that includes strong professional development plan for the district’s teachers; an aggressive plan to ensure that every teacher is qualified in his/her subject area; and a plan for increasing the number of master teachers and teacher mentors in schools."

What were my incorrect prior claims?

[sangh0]

12. That Kerry is going to raise standards on teachers who are accredited

was your incorrect prior claim. According to the excerpt you posted, Kerry proposes

1) Professional development plans (this is continuing ed for teachers)

2) standards for accrediting NEW (not already accredited teachers) teachers

3) more funds and higher pay

[ulysses]

15. factual errors on your part.

1. My prior claim was (and remains) that Kerry intends to raise teacher standards. I never said anything about already certified teachers.

2. Neither does Kerry.

[sangh0]

17. "I never said anything about already certified teachers."

Oh, so you when you said that "Kerry wants to raise the standards on teachers", you meant "Kerry will raise standards on teachers who don't exist"?

[ulysses]

18. do you have a reading problem?

No, I just meant teachers.

[sangh0]

20. accredited teachers or teachers who don't exist yet?

.

[ulysses]

21. just teachers.

You're the one making the distinction, not I and not Kerry.

[sangh0]

23. Wrong again

Kerry has most definitely distinguished between already accredited teachers, and unaccredited ones. He has called for the states to devise accreditation standards.

You're the one making the distinction, not I and not Kerry.

No, you're avoiding the details of Kerry's plan in order to distort. I believe that's a sign of sophistry, but I could be wrong. You seem to be the expert on that.

[ulysses]

27. hey, you're the one

who challenged me to start getting my information straight from the campaign. Now you're the one spinning what I got there. :shrug:

[sangh0]

31. Wrong again

YOu just said that Kerry hasn't distinguished between accredited teachers and non-accredited teachers. You were wrong, so your response is to accuse me of spinning and sophistry.

[ulysses]

33. again

"Kerry’s proposal will provide higher pay for teachers in exchange for implementing higher standards. In order to qualify for funding, school districts will have to submit a plan that includes strong professional development plan for the district’s teachers; an aggressive plan to ensure that every teacher is qualified in his/her subject area; and a plan for increasing the number of master teachers and teacher mentors in schools."

Where does he make the distinction?

[sangh0]

35. In the part you didn't quote

and "quoting out of context" is going to help your credibility.

Plus, I'm surprised you're going to so much trouble for me, a poster you claim you don't take seriously (or was that just another one of your many mistakes?)

[ACK]

43. Also, I remember from earlier speeches the quote

"I want accountability to mean more than just more testing."

Ok, that said the number one point about professional development plans is smoke and mirrors, every district has them. Some are better than others but this is a give me.

Standard for accrediting new teachers. Ok, there are a couple of teachers that will whack the hell out of me for this but it is needed. I got my certification in Ga for Secondary Ed Social Studies and it was a huge gross silly joke.

My wife got her certification in Va. OMG, the difference was incredible. Her requirements were very tough and split over two tests.

More funds and higher pay. The vast majority of Americans will say if polled that teachers are not paid enough. This is an easy one.

Kerry's mis-step was to use the word accountability (codeword to teachers for more testing and more paperwork) without immediate qualification.

I like Kerry a hell of a lot but he needs to be careful when touching out to the base to be aware and sensitive to how Repub language carries a sting and an implied meaning.

_

[sangha]

46. Good points, one and all

Some of it is politics, and some of it is good policy. I do think you'd be surprised at how many teachers would agree about the accreditation standards. While many would say they thought their states were fine, they'd agree that it's not always true in all 50 states.

[Nederland]

2. As an unapologetic centrist

I'd say you should expect as much "happy campaigning on the backs of traditional Dem supporters" as it takes for Kerry to win. If you don't like the fact that only centrists can win elections in this country, you need to work toward getting your views accepted by the majority. For that, I'd give up on working with political campaigns since they are a lousy and ineffective way of changing mainstream opinions.

[ulysses]

4. thanks for the candor!

For that, I'd give up on working with political campaigns since they are a lousy and ineffective way of changing mainstream opinions.

A fair point.

Hey, how's the kid?

[Nederland]

7. The Kid is Good

She seems to like hiking, though perhaps that's because she isn't actually hiking :)



Thanks for asking.

[ulysses]

25. heh - she couldn't get any cuter

Not even breaking a sweat, either. :D

I think you're right about not bothering much with the electoral process, at least for the nonce.

[redqueen]

29. Oh my goodness!

What an adorable baby girl!!!!

Thanks for sharing that. Brightened my day right up. :D

[Nederland]

41. Why Thanks!

I happen to share the opinion that she is adorable, though I give credit to her mom on that score. BTW, the occassional posting of pictures of my daughter is my clever way of deflecting attention from my frequently abrasive posts.

[WillyT]

39. Nederland, Your Kid Is Cute As All Get Out !!!

Congrats man!!!

:bounce::hi::bounce:

[WillyT]

10. "... the fact that only centrists can win elections in this country... "

Really??????

All by themselves???

DO TELL!!!

ROFLMAO!

So... Y'all won't be holding a vote for Nader against anybody any longer???

LOL!

[Nederland]

11. Yes, only centrists win.

If you think I'm wrong, answer me this: when is the last time a non-centrist won the presidency?

On edit: When is the last time a person who campaigned as a non-centrist won?

[WillyT]

14. Look, I Know What You're Saying, And...

I'm gonna vote for Kerry.

But let's say the war gets even worse (if that's possible), and Kerry refuses to moderate his position on the war.

Now let's say Nader is able to somehow sweep the Anti-War Movement, as it becomes even larger and more active\vocal, into his camp.

He drains a significant amount of votes away from leftists, and maybe even some on the right.

Nader (lefty) loses. Kerry (centrist) loses. Busholini (fascist) WINS!!!

IOW - A non-centrist is squatting in the WH now, and if the above scenario plays out, a non-centrist will win the Presidency this November.

I'm hoping Kerry has some plan on moderating his views on the war BEFORE Nader jumps in front of him.

You???

:shrug:

[WillyT]

28. Damn... Must Be On Everyone's Ignore List, LOL !!!

:bounce::bounce::nuke: oops!

[sangh0]

30. Bad premise, WillyT

But let's say the war gets even worse (if that's possible), and Kerry refuses to moderate his position on the war.

You might want to check gdp2004. Kerry just said the war is "a disaster". I don't where you got the idea that Kerry is inflexible.

IOW - A non-centrist is squatting in the WH now, and if the above scenario plays out, a non-centrist will win the Presidency this November.

Please note that the non-centrist campaigned as centrist who was for:

1) Affirmative Outreach
2) Compassionate Conservatism
3) a "humble" foriegn policy
4) Protecting SS and the budget surplus

while disavowing a desire for

1) banning abortions
2) assault weapons
3) partisanship

etc

[WillyT]

37. For About The Third Time In The Last Two days...

I've heard analysis (today's coming from Jim Lehrer on Wolfie's show) wondering if Nader will be able to harness the anger over the war before Kerry does. That scares the crap outta me.

I wasn't worried very much about 'ole Ralphie when he announced, but I'm not so sure anymore. As more and more people throw their hands up in frustration at Kerry's "non-message", he gives Nader an opening that Nader just might be able to use.

He won't win, but we will ALL lose.

Kerry has the perfect credentials for becoming the anti-war candidate. The other side will trot out their 'flip-flop' BS, but Kerry actually fought in a war that was a mistake. Then he fought against it.

He needs to do so again, NOW!!!

:shrug:

[sangha]

42. The only thing Nader is going to harness

is a shit storm for running again

I wasn't worried very much about 'ole Ralphie when he announced, but I'm not so sure anymore. As more and more people throw their hands up in frustration at Kerry's "non-message", he gives Nader an opening that Nader just might be able to use.

My advice is to stop listening to repukes. "No message" is pure repuke propoganda. After four years of "No ideas" and now "No message", you should have learned

[WillyT]

44. LOL !!! --- Thanks For The Lecture, But...

I put 'Kerry's "non message"' in quotes as a hint that I don't necessarily believe that piece of propaganda. What I'm worried about however, is watching Bush's poll numbers go down, while Kerry's seem to be stuck.

Yeah it's still early, but I'm not a big fan of 'reactive' campaigning.

I'd like Kerry to be a kinder gentler version of say... Dean, Kucinich, Wellstone, Durbin, Byrd...

IOW --- I'm hoping he's NOT being ADVISED into defeat!!!

Let 'er rip!

:shrug:

[sangha]

48. D'oh! Sorry about that

The "no message" thing is a reasonable concern, but that's not what concerns me most. I think Kerry has the skills needed to make clear that he is a fine alternative to Bush*.

About how Kerry's #'s aren't rising as fast as Bush*'s are falling - I think the concern is being a bit inflated. It's still not even summer, and though I do believe that people are paying much more attention to the election this year, most are still pretty inattentive and don't know much about Kerry with the exception of what's been broadcast in commercials.

IMO, the convential portrait of Kerry that's making the rounds --that he's bland, weak, and will say anything-- is one that Kerry will be able to easily dispel once people begin to pay even the most minimal amount of attention. I've followed his career, and it's clear that while you may not be seeing many bumper sticker-like quotes coming from him, he is quite capable of presenting his case. In this instance, he has a very good case to make.

[WillyT]

50. Agreed !!!

:highfive:

[Nederland]

40. Draining votes

My philosophy toward voting has always been the same. It goes without saying that I won't vote for Bush. If my state (Colorado), looks like it will be close, I'll vote for Kerry. Barring that, I'll vote for whoever I want to. That's what I've always done.

As for your hypothectical, I admit that its a tough balancing act that Kerry needs to pull off. He needs to move far enough to the center to pick up the votes he needs to win, but if he moves to far he pisses off his base. I remain hopefully that the far left will learn a thing or two from the far right and realize its better to get 70% of what you want than 0%.

The 2004 election will be a test of the far left's ability to learn from its mistakes of 2000.

[AP]

53. The center would have to move left before campainging

to the left would win an election.

Is that a tautology?

[Darth_Kitten]

56. Centrists aren't a majority......

At least liberals and even conservatives are willing to take a stand and make their views heard. :) (sorry, I just feel "most" centrists believe the world revolves around them)

Liberal views are hardly "out of the mainstream". Maybe it's time for centrists to start presenting some views instead of expecting politicians to cater exclusively to them. Middle America doesn't make the changes that people NEED....IMHO ;) :D

The rank and file TRADITIONAL democrat DO deserve consideration, not the fickle centrists. :)

[Finch]

61. "Rank and File Dems"?

LOL :eyes:

The two biggest groups in this nation are moderates and populists really.

Self Identified Liberals account for less than 20% of the voting population.

Within the Democratic Party around 1/3 are died-in-the-wool Liberals, 1/3 are populists (social moderates and economic liberals, think of organized labor and many blue-collar members) and 1/3 are moderates.

Moderates can have strong beliefs to... I Know i do (Scoop-Jackson Democrat)... It is just that they are moderate rather than radical... and more often than not they fall into line with what many americans belive...

Real Voters want low taxes and small government and believe in moderately traditional values and a strong military with an assertive foreign policy and I am prepared to listen to why they feel this way and except that they are right. However they also believe in access to excellent health care and education as a right and not a privilege and they also believe in working with other nations and having open and civil government... I believe that these are reasonable values and beliefs on the part of most americans...and i generally share them...

Why must you have to be a conservative or a liberal to be principled? I care deeply about this nation and the people of this nation and i will stick to my principles, the reason I am a democrat is very simple "we achieve more by our common endeavor than we do alone" and republicans believe the opposite... I just don't get how you have to be an unyielding ideology to get things done?... Evan Bayh, Jo Lieberman, John Breaux all moderate to conservative Democrats, but they are principled! there will be moderates in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania who are moderate to win votes as their will be conservatives in South Carolina and Utah who are conservative to win votes and there are liberals in Massachusetts and California who are liberal just to win votes... being a moderate and having principles are not mutually exclusive and i think it very closed minded and frankly arrogant to suggest that Moderates cannot have principles all politicans can have them no matter where the sit in the political spectrum...

Politics revolves around moderates for a very obvious reason... Liberals will vote Dem and Conservatives will vote GOP so the only group that holds the balance are the moderates hence you MUST pay attention to moderates and seek to appeal to them because like it or not there are more moderates (of one shade or another) than there are liberals or conservatives, its the same for both party's...

[lastliberalintexas]

62. Bad premise

"Self-identified" monikers mean nothing, particularly in this age where anything liberal, socialist or populist is considered evil by the voters. Labels are not the best way to determine whether people are really moderate, liberal or conservative.

On policy based questions, Americans by and large identify with the liberal/progressive/populist stand. They simply refuse to identify themselves as such. The RWers have simply won the language war.

[Finch]

63. I would say...

...from my own experience, most Americans are by and large economic populists and socially (not conservative) but inclined to tolerant, if traditional, attitudes, so for example most people don't like the idea of abortion but think that it should be restricted rather than banned and most people support civil union but not gay marriage generally but also do not support any attempt by Bush to legislate against it... i agree with your point about being self identifies but surveys which asks issue based questions without labels seem to come up with similar conclusions...

So I would guess about 20% of Americans are social and economic liberals, 10% would be Libertarians (social liberals and economic conservatives), 25% are both social and economic Conservatives, 20% are moderates of one brand or another (in between conservatives and liberals on economic and social issues) and about 25% are Populists (socially conservative but fiscally liberal)...

Liberals in the Senate- Tom Harkin, Dianna Feinstein, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, *more radical liberals, Russ Feingold, Barbra Boxer, Ted Kennedy (some of the time),

Libertarians -Lincoln Chafee, Gordon Harold Smith,

1.“Mainstream” Conservatives – Richard Lugar, Kit Bond, Elizabeth Dole, John McCain
2. “Hard Right or Religious Right” Conservatives - Trent Lott, Rick Santorum, Orrin Hatch (seems to mellowing though).

Populists- Fritz Hollings, Dick Gephardt, John Edwards, Harry Reid, Robert Byrd,

Moderates- Joseph Lieberman, Olympia Snowe, John Breaux, Arlen Specter, Blanche Lambert Lincoln, Evan Bayh,

Sadly on both sides the Conservatives and Liberals are so far at loggerheads and unwilling to compromise and thanks to the GOP majority, very little gets done and there is little civility and far to much open feuding within the senate…one day I hope things will be different…

[Nederland]

65. Nice Post (nt)

[Cocoa]

6. The NEA is supporting Kerry

Their take on Kerry's plan is a little more, shall we say, nuanced, than your "campaigning on the backs of teachers" stuff. Good for the NEA for disagreeing without pouting or throwing a tantrum.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4061713,00.html

<snip>

Kerry already has the support of the American Federation of Teachers and the National Education Association's political committee has recommended that the union endorse him at their annual meeting in July. Both unions said they support much of Kerry's teacher proposal - including the idea that teachers should get higher pay and more tools - but acknowledge they disagree with some elements.

``There are some things that NEA and its affiliates may have some problems with, but it's hard to judge without a higher level of specificity,'' said NEA spokesman Michael Pons.

[ulysses]

9. yes, I'm aware of that.

Check out LWolf's thread - the membership isn't entirely happy.

[sangh0]

13. The President of the UFT also approves

of Kerry's proposal

the membership isn't entirely happy.

The membership isn't entirely Democratic, so they should be unhappy.

[ulysses]

16. no, the entire membership of the NEA

The membership isn't entirely Democratic, so they should be unhappy.

probably isn't Democratic, but is it only the non-Dems that are unhappy?

[sangh0]

19. Yes uly. Only non-Dems are unhappy

Don't you know that Democrats are a unified block and every single one of them holds the same, exact opinion?

Oh, you mean they don't all agree? Then why bring up the fact that some disagree with Kerry?

[ulysses]

22. only because I know you love it so much.

;-)

[sangh0]

24. Avoidance through humor

I'm not surprised that you don't defend your little fallacy (and I do mean little)

[ulysses]

26. nah

It's just that I don't take you seriously.

[sangh0]

32. Funny how you only seem to remember that

after you've been nailed

[ulysses]

34. LOL - dream on!

Hey, I'm headed out for dinner. Don't go away, though, I'll be back.

[sangh0]

36. Bye bye

I'll see you another day, when you can respond to dozens of my posts even though you don't take me seriously.

[ulysses]

49. you do have a point here.

Responding to you, while amusing, is a huge waste of time. Adios.

*plonk*

[WillyT]

51. LOL !!! --- I Think I'd Like Ta Meet Him, Not Sure I Could Stand To...

drink with him though, ya know???

I knew guys like that in high-school. So proud to be proud of themselves.

Sigh...

:shrug:

[sangha]

55. I don't drink alcohol

but I think you'd change your mind if you met me

Also, you might want to read my post at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=524332&mesg_id=524748&page=

If I have an attitude, it has to do with teachers who supposedly care about education to criticize the plan, but don't seem to care enough to actually read the plan.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[kodi]

45. jesus christ, where the fuck is the fucking middle these days?

we're dealin' with quicksilver times now.

i have no time for sado-masochism but even less for be-headings.

what's moral? what's immoral these days?

the blood dimmed tide is loosed and there's nowhere to hide.

[WillyT]

47. Eggsactly !!!

Beautiful!

:-)

[AP]

54. It looks like it might be forming around Kerry,

which is a good sign.

Also, I don't think it's like quicksilver.

The middle hasn't moved very much since about '96. I think they feel like they were sold a bill of goods in 2000 (for the ones in middle who voted Bush).

I think they're going to realize that they're closer, ideologically speaking, to Kerry rather than to Bush.

They're not changing so much as their perceptions of what Bush is all about.

In other words, he's not really the compassionate conservative many thought he'd be.

[kodi]

59. yes, i hope you are right.

btw my remark of "quicksilver times" refers to a pandemonium of events occurring that demand a re-examination of what is moral conduct.

oddly enough, such situational morality is exactly the bane of the right, but recent events show its reality and the mouthings of the right this past week illustrate that they use it too.

[Darth_Kitten]

57. The middle is too busy..........

waiting to see what's going on before saying the sane, rational, stodgy, middle-america thing. ;) :D

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Finch]

58. What is your question?

...is it that Kerry should not run to the center?

...If so then you are wrong, either candidate be it Kerry or Bush must attempt to appeal to the hopes, values and aspirations of ordinary moderate americans... Neither Solidly Liberal or Solidly conservative stances achieve this, I'm a moderate because I'm not an ideology, I'm mildly conservative on social issues, I'm mildly economically populist and hawkish on foreign policy so I'm pretty much in line with someone like John Edwards...

My moderation is not born out of a desire to compromise "what i know to be right" so that my party can win, Its what i belive...

[Nicholas_J]

60. Kerry's political career

has been fartther to the left of every candidate except Dennis Kucinich, who's career is about equally to the lefft of center with Kerry's according to a number of people who analyze relative political positioning of politicians in the U.S.

Most presidential candidates have to run campaigns to the center, and then move to their original political positions once elected.

Bush ran rather closer to the center in 2000, and started moving to the far right amlost immediately after being elected.

It has happened with most presidents this way.

[dolstein]

64. Considering that Kerry is one of the most liberal Senators

I wouldn't expect to much more movement toward the center -- it simply strains credibility.

Sure, Kerry will contintue to highlight the few non-liberal aspects of his record -- his support for a balanced budget, his (less-than-enthusiastic) support for welfare reford and (at least outside the rust belt) his support for open markets and small business.

Honestly, only the left-wing could gripe and groan about having the most liberal Democratic nominee since 1984. Some people are never satisfied.