Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Hillary supporters: Please explain Hillary's vote for Iran resolution where Bush can now call the...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 01:54 PM
Original message
Hillary supporters: Please explain Hillary's vote for Iran resolution where Bush can now call the...
...parts of Iran's military a "terrorist" group?!

I can give her the benefit of the doubt with the Iraq vote but the Iran thing is inexcusable to me.

Obama didn't vote which is still a little questionable but not as questionable as her vote FOR the resolution.

Thank you in advance
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. Especially since she was the only Democrat voting for it...and her vote was the difference...nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Damn!! You know, I respect Obama even more now...I would've HAMMERED her with that vote
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Would You Have Respected Him Even More If He Had Shown Up For It?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. No, the fact that he didn't vote at all doesn't gain him anything with me I think he has to answer..
..but her voting FOR the resolution is more alarming to me.

up to now no one has said why she did that
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. She Wasn't The Only One, And Her Vote Wasn't The Difference.
Try not to be so ignorant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. What has she said in regards to the vote? Thank you in advance
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. First of all, at least she showed up for the vote. As for Obama, his motto was simple:
when the going gets tough, the tough gets lost. Second, Hillary simply voted to tell the truth. Iran's revolutionary guard IS a terrorist organization. They are a parallel military to the regular Iranian military who are there to protect the values of the revolution (i.e. the state). One of their key duties has involved carrying out terrorist acts abroad. If they commit acts of terrorism then they can fairly be labeled a terror group.

Steve
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Again, I don't give him points for not voting against it but I TAKE AWAY more points from her for...
...voting FOR the resolution..

You're response doesn't explain why she did.

Thank you in advance for your response
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I can't speak for Senator Clinton, but again I assume that she voted for the resolution
because it was the truth. Iran's revolutionary guard IS a terrorist organization.

Steve
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. ...so do you think it was better for her to name it a TO vs. keeping Bush for taking us to another
...war!!?!?!?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
StevieM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. But Bush hasn't taken us to war there. He has 10 months left....there isn't going to be a war
with Iran. The resolution wasn't a vote for war, it was a non-binding resolution to recognize a terror group.

Steve
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Obama pushed earlier Senate legislation, along with Dodd
that designated Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. That one didn't make it out of committee though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Could you site the resolution? Also, that wouldn't have gave Bush the right to go to war with Iran
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 02:09 PM by uponit7771
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Here is a link to an excellent DU discussion on exactly that
It has all the citations and links. Obama was a co-sponsor of S970 which said in part:

S. 970: Iran Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007 (Senator Obama one of 68 co-sponsors)

SEC. 3. SENSE OF CONGRESS.

The following is the sense of Congress: ...(8) The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189) and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224 (66 Fed. Reg. 186; relating to blocking property and prohibiting transactions with persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support terrorism).


Now here is the wording in K/L that was lifted from the legislation Obama co-sponsored:


Kyl/Lieberman Amendment No. 3017 to the 2008 Defense Authorization Act.

...(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224


The thread was by Kurt_and_Hunter:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4165479


In the backlash to her K/L vote Hillary Clinton issued a number of statements and took a number of acts. She co-sponsored the Webb Amendment that would have forced Bush to return to the Senate for specific authority to attack Iran, and she was one of a number of those Democratic Senators who had voted for K/L who signed a Webb written letter to the White House clarifying that that amendment was not intended to support use of military action against Iran. She also issued clear statements attacking Bush for not engaging in real "all issues subject to negotiations" diplomacy with Iran. In short she negated most of the political milage Bush could have hoped to squeeze out of her vote should he later attack Iran. I didn't say all, I said most, and I think that is an honest appraisal.

I think it is bullshit to claim that Clinton wants a war with Iran. I think she made a political calulation regarding Iran that snapped back to bite her. Almost all of the Democratic candidates had been doing the same thing but the rest of the ones in the Senate were clever enough not to attach their names to a Senate resolution sponsored by Lieberaman, that was a huge turn off to many Democratic primary voters who didn't give half a damn about the rhetoric toward Iran prior to then.

What would have happened had Clinton voted the other way? Instead of passing by 76 to 22 it would have passed by 75 to 23. Same difference in terms of how Bush could have used that vote after the fact, but instead of Iran suddenly erupting into a huge topic of debate, because of the primaries, it would have been forgotten in a few days by most since no one could have gained any political advantage by forcing pulic attention to it. There is a reason why Obama, Edwards, and Dodd all made prior political moves to call out Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization. You can call it simply politics or you can say it was a principled position to influence Iran away from a certain course of action through the use of "sticks" in diplomacy. The policy that John Edwards advocates toward Iran for example is to enter into diplomatic negotiations with them; using a mixture of sticks and carrots. Prior to the political usefulness of the K/L vote fall out, most of the Democratic candidates agreed that designating Iran's Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization was one of those "sticks" that everyone kept talking about.

In fact a majority of Democratic Senators, those who gained no political advantage in the primaries by pleasing left of center Democratic primary voters, voted for Kyle-Lieberman. And yeah, I think they were wrong to do so, probably. Why do I say probably? Because there were some serious back room negotiations on the final version of that amendment.

The original version came much closer to actually providing Senate backing for Bush's ability to attack Iran whenever he wanted to. Which would have been worse? The mostly nuetered K/L Amendment passing by 76 to 22 or a much more hawkish version passing by something like 59 to 39? Because that may have been the actual real choice without a back room deal. I am only speculating I admit, but not wildly so. We do know that there were last minute negotiations on the final wording, we do know that the final wording was much clearer about not authorizing attacks inside of Iran, and we do know that Hillary Clinton at least claims she would have opposed the origninal version and that she was involved in those closed door negotiations.

We also know that the entire Democratic Senate leadership...

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Senate_leadership

...ultimately voted in favor of the revised K/L Amendment, without exception.

Harry Reid, Majority Leader; Aye
Dick Durbin, Majority Whip; Aye
Patty Murray, Conference Secratary; Aye
Chuck Shumer, Vice-Chairman of the Conference/DSCC Chairperson; Aye
Debbie Stabenow, Steering Committee Chairperson; Aye
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00349#position

That on the surface is consistent with a deal having been struck. Durbin in particular is no foreign policy hawk.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Obama may have been negligent but he was not ducking it
He came out clearly opposed to the resolution. He should have gone to DC to vote on it, but that was bad scheduling rather than cowardice.

As for the intention you stated -- maybe technically that is correct. But it is foolish to give Bush any ammo that could potentially come back to haunt us if he decides that Iran is the New Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. K, that's enough for me...if he spoke out against it publicky I can give him neutral points instead
...of none.

No one is explaining Hillary's vote though
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. And what acts of terror have they committed?
Links, please.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jconner27 Donating Member (356 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Where was Obama?
Your guy didn't vote at all.. That should speak more than this crap you cult followers put up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:04 PM
Original message
I've indicated I didn't like that but why did she vote FOR the resolution?!!?!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thoughtcrime1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Maybe she feels that we need to
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. No one is answering on this, they keep talking about Obama missing the vote
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. It least we know how she stands on it & can make a judgment.
Who knows what Obama would have done?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. He came out publically against it during the voting process, that's enough for me. Could you answer
...the question about Hillary?

Thank you in advance
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Then why didn't he bother to vote?
Thank you in advance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. We know what he would have done
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 02:45 PM by NCevilDUer
because he did what he did.

What is not clear is the whys and wherefores of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
21. Her Explanation Below Suits Me Just Fine.
Clinton on Thursday defended her vote on the resolution during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio, saying "what I voted on was a nonbinding resolution. It's not an amendment. It's not a law."

While Clinton was campaigning Sunday in New Hampton, Iowa, an audience member at a town hall-style meeting pressed her on why she voted for the Iran measure and asked why she hadn't learned from past "mistakes." Calling "the premise of the question" wrong, the senator from New York argued the resolution calls for the terrorist label so that sanctions can be imposed.

The sanctions, Clinton said, will in turn "send a clear message to the leadership" and lead to stronger diplomatic efforts.

Earlier this month, Clinton also co-sponsored legislation with Sen. Jim Webb, D-Virginia, that would prohibit military operations against Iran without congressional approval.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. K, it was non binding...that's a good answer...it's easier for me to let this one alone then....thx
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. Roll call.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I've said it bothered me that he wasn't there but he makes up for it by speaking out against it....
...also, it was a "non-binding" resolution which makes up for her voting for it if it didn't mean anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. It would be nice if he spoke up a bit more on the Senate floor.
Edited on Mon Mar-17-08 02:40 PM by rug
The bottom line is they've both been less than spineless in fighting to end this war.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
itcfish Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nonbinding
Resolution. It means nothing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Yeap, learned that earlier...I pray Bush wont do anything with it ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. It means nothing
except what Bush wants it to mean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC