Obama's attempt to have it both ways may be coming to an end.

[kennetha]

Obama has succeeded brilliantly so far in having it both ways. On the one hand, his rock-solid support from African Americans is based largely on good old-fashioned identity politics. On the other hand, he has been able to present himself to the latte liberal crowd as a post-racial apostle of a new politics. But I think the flap over Minister Wright puts him in a serious bind. There is nothing post-racial about Trinity United, it seems, or about Minister Wright, Barack's long term and freely chosen spiritual adviser. The main problem for Obama is that the more we learn about Wright the less it makes sense that a truly post-racial person, of the sort Obama presents himself as being, would choose such a man as his personal spiritual adviser. But there is also this. If Obama goes too far in distancing himself from Wright and from Trinity United in order to shore up his "post-racial" bone fides, the less, I would think, he can rely on good old fashion identity politics to fuel large turn-outs among African Americans. I don't think he is in any danger of losing any significant share of the African American vote though. I'm only suggesting that there may be less passion among AA's if Obama is forced to go explicitly "post-racial" and disavow the things about Wright that may give him resonance with many inner city AA's. Look, for example, at how strongly Trinity has reacted to how it is being portrayed. Obama can't let himself be partying to dissing a black church as such on pain of turning off some not insignificant number of blacks who find this kind of message deeply uplifting and pertinent to their lived experience in America.

Obama actually said something quite true about this in the video response he released and in some of his other appearances. Wright belongs to a sort of wounded generation of black men who have a certain deep, and not entirely unjustified, moral indignation at American and the people who run and benefit from its oppressive structures. White America has never been and will never be comfortable with such black men. White America is only comfortable with Black men who offer them racial absolution. That is what Barack does. But he's been brilliant at simultaneously doing that and keeping all manner of African Americans on board and motivated.

But it may be that this episode will put that fully to the test. If he disses Wright too much, he loses some of the racial solidarity with the broad mass of black people that he has managed to maintained. But if he disses Wright too little, he loses some of his sheen with liberal whites as Mr. Post-Racial new hope.

It's a delicate balancing act and if he can pull it off, he will have my great admiration -- even if he still won't have my vote. On the other hand, if he can't pull it off, he may well still win the nomination, but he'll be very damaged goods and the Repugnants will have a field day with him.

[anonymous171]

1. Your appreciation of White America makes me fucking furious.

:mad:

[BostonMa]

6. You plan on winning by not appreciating white America? good luck

[DrCory]

52. Nice anti-intellectual blanket condemnation. N/T

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Drachasor]

3. You base this on a few out-of-context lines of Wright and ignore Obama's years of service?

Yeah, sounds like you're putting a lot of thinking into this.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

5. What did the man say about America you don't

agree with. Do you really think:
that God of approves America for: slavery, our treatment of American Indians (a only good Indian is a dead one), Jim Crow Laws, KKK (which was the leading political party in some states in the 1920's, interment of the Japanese, 2nd class citizenship for Blacks until the last few decades, racial hatred, Homophobic preachers, the Iraq War, corporate greed, America's rape of our environment, global warming, our consumption of natural resources and food while millions die and we we see it on TV, we turn the TV channel with our remote because we are too tired of looking at it.
I think that God has many things he could damn us for.
Do you really think that we are a God fearing nation with the blood we have on our hands?.

What he said was said very poorly, I have problems with the way he said it, but not what he said.
This being said, I love my country, we are a giving nation like no other. We do have much to be ashamed for.

Support your candidate, vote for him or her, give to him or her monetarily, work your ass off for him or her during the primary campaigns. Don't do what I have been seeing tonight on this site. It is silly.

Vote Democratic in The GE no matter who wins.

Work to change our country into one that God would be proud of.

[elixir]

58. I disagree w/ everything he's said. America did not deserve 9/11, the KKK does

not represent America, ... Wake up, this is going to kill his campaign and I don't think there's any way he can talk his way out of this.

[doc03]

15. What is out of context about God damn America? It's no

different than when Pat Robertson prayed to God for the hurricane to hit Florida because they have a gay pride day at Disney World. Maybe God heard Rev. Wright's prayers and sent hurricane Katrina to New Orleans.

[Drachasor]

18. So you say he was preaching that violence be done to America and its people?

Over something akin to a parade? Because that wasn't the context AT ALL.

[doc03]

32. Yes I am.

He asked god to damn America that was the context, he said nothing about no damn parade. No wonder the poor guy in LA had his head smashed in with a brick a few few years ago if they preach such hate for whites in the black Churches. If either Hillary Clinton or John McCain attended a church that spewed such hate for blacks as Rev Wright does for whites you would be demanding and probably get your way and force them from even holding the office they have now. This is the most blatant example of a double standard I ever saw. Trent Lott was forced to resign just because of a comment he made about Strom Thurmond.

[stillcool]

33. I know there is nothing...

that will quell that outrage you feel about those few sentences you've heard that were spoken by a Black Man....but...he was talking about this. Not that you care.

Blowback excerpted from the book
Blowback The Costs and Consequences of American Empire
by Chalmers Johnson
Henry Holt, 2000
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blowback_CJohnson/Blowback_BCJ.html

p8
The term "blowback," which officials of the Central Intelligence Agency first invented for their own internal use, is starting to circulate among students of international relations. It refers to the unintended consequences of policies that were kept secret from the American people. What the daily press reports as the malign acts of "terrorists" or "drug lords" or "rogue states" or "illegal arms merchants" often turn out to be blowback from earlier American operations.
p9
One man's terrorist is, of course, another man's freedom fighter, and what U.S. officials denounce as unprovoked terrorist attacks on its innocent citizens are often meant as retaliation for previous American imperial actions. Terrorists attack innocent and undefended American targets precisely because American soldiers and sailors firing cruise missiles from ships at sea or sitting in B-52 bombers at extremely high altitudes or supporting brutal and repressive regimes from Washington seem invulnerable. As members of the Defense Science Board wrote in a 1997 report to the undersecretary of defense for acquisition and technology, "Historical data show a strong correlation between U.S. involvement in international situations and an increase in terrorist attacks against the United States. In addition, the military asymmetry that denies nation states the ability to engage in overt attacks against the United States drives the use of transnational actors that is, terrorists from one country attacking in another."
The most direct and obvious form of blowback often occurs when the victims fight back after a secret American bombing, or a U.S.-sponsored campaign of state terrorism, or a CIA-engineered overthrow of a foreign political leader. All around the world today, it is possible to see the groundwork being laid for future forms of blowback.
------------------------------------------
Terrorism(by definition)strikes at the innocent in order to draw attention to the sins of the invulnerable. The innocent of the twenty-first century are going to harvest unexpected blowback disasters from the imperialist escapades of recent decades. Although most Americans may be largely ignorant of what was, and still is, being done in their names, all are likely to pay a steep price-individually and collectively-for their nation's continued efforts to dominate the global scene. Before the damage of heedless triumphalist acts and the triumphalist rhetoric and propaganda that goes with them becomes irreversible, it is important to open a new discussion of our global role during and after the Cold War...
------------------------
"Blowback" is shorthand for saying that a nation reaps what it sows, even if it does not fully know or understand what it has sown. Given its wealth and power, the United States will be a prime recipient in the foreseeable future of all of the more expectable forms of blowback, particularly terrorist attacks against Americans in and out of the armed forces anywhere on earth, including within the United States. But it is blowback in its larger aspect-the tangible costs of empire-that truly threatens it. Empires are costly operations, and they become more costly by the year. The hollowing out of American industry, for instance, is a form of blowback-an unintended negative consequence of American policy- even though it is seldom recognized as such. The growth of militarism in a once democratic society is another example of blowback. Empire is the problem. Even though the United States has a strong sense of invulnerability and substantial military and economic tools to make such a feeling credible, the fact of its imperial pretensions means that a crisis is inevitable. More imperialist projects simply generate more blowback. If we do not begin to solve problems in more prudent and modest ways, blowback will only become more intense.

The American Empire: 1992 to present
from the book
Killing Hope
by William Blum
2004 edition
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/American_Empire_KH2004.html

Following its bombing of Iraq in 1991, the United States wound up with military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates.
Following its bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999, the United States wound up with military bases in Kosovo, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Hungary, Bosnia and Croatia.
Following its bombing of Afghanistan in 2001-2, the United States wound up with military bases in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia, Yemen and Djibouti.
Following its bombing and invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States wound up with Iraq.
This is not very subtle foreign policy. Certainly not covert. The men who run the American Empire are not easily embarrassed
And that is the way the empire grows-a base in every neighborhood, ready to be mobilized to put down any threat to imperial rule, real or imagined. Fifty-eight years after world War II ended, the United States still has major bases in Germany and Japan; fifty ears after the end of the Korean War, tens of thousands of American armed forces continue to be stationed in South Korea.
"America will have a continuing interest and presence in Central Asia of a kind that we could not have dreamed of before," US Secretary of State Colin Powell declared in February 2002. Later that year, the US Defense Department announced: "The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations then it has been throughout history."

A Brief History of U.S. Interventions: 1945 to the Present
by William Blum
Z magazine , June 1999
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/US_Interventions_WBlumZ.html
The United States carried out extremely serious interventions into more than 70 nations in this period.

Just keep that outrage stoked about the old Black Man that so offended your sense.

[Drachasor]

35. Thanks for the assist :)

[stillcool]

37. I just turned 50 this year...

and I've never seen or heard anything like this. Blinded by their bigoted arrogance.

[doc03]

43. You know a bigot doesn't necessarily

have to be white. If you are so blinded by your own prejudice you can't even comprehend what Rev. Wright said is wrong there is no use continuing this. I doubt you even think Farrakhan is the least bit racist. If a white preacher would talk like that blaming the black people for everything wrong with the country you would want him crucified.

[stillcool]

48. I see you couldn't be bothered...

reading my response to your post, but instead interject your little hate-fest with my response to somebody else. You have no clue as to who this elderly black man is. You have no clue as to the life he has led, and you could care less. You choose to take excerpts from a sermon and judge a human being, and his life based on those statements. You are railing against black people, not this man. Seeing as how you had nothing to say regarding my first response to you, I'm going to assume that you don't give a shit about anything but your little hate crusade. Are you getting off on it?

[Drachasor]

34. Here you go:

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

The "giving them drugs" part, could refer to "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male" which happened not so long ago (especially to Wright). Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male

He did not preach for disasters to strike. He was not talking about some sort of trivial matter. The prison issue is real and present, as are the other things he discussed. Now, is "God Damn America" striking, unsettling, and outrageous? Yes, but the purpose of such a sermon is to startle you out of complacency in many case. (And note, that is just part of the context, I am trying to see if I can dig up more -- seems that the rest of it was not released by the media, which probably means it isn't very outrageous).


And please, if you have any evidence he has given hate speech against whites, please give it. (In fact, he has done no such thing).

And do you even recall what the statement Trent Lott said and who Strom Thurmon was back in the day?

[DrCory]

53. Service to whom?....Himself and his crooked cronies. N/T

[Drachasor]

4. Wright has a "not entirely unjustified, moral indignation at America"? NOT ENTIRELY UNJUSTIFIED!?

NOT ENTIRELY UNJUSTIFIED? HOW ABOUT ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED!

[2rth2pwr]

7. Well written, very good points. nt

[DJ13]

8. By acting overly concerned about non-existant racism, you're being racist

But coming from the Hillary side of our party that thinks Obama wouldnt be successful if he wasnt black Im not surprised by your actions.

[kennetha]

10. I don't get this.

Would you care to elaborate?

[doc03]

9. I agree, the sad part of this is the MSM sat on this story

until the primaries have pretty much reached the point of no return in nominating Obama. I am afraid we are in for the most humiliating defeat since Micheal Dukakis. The 527 groups are going to play Rev. Wrights videos until we will see them in our sleep this fall.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

11. What world do you live in?

I look forward to seeing Barack Obama inaugurated next Jan.

It is the economy stupid.

All he has to say is are you better off thaN last January.
The whole country will answer back, HELL NO.

NUFF SAID

[kennetha]

12. That's Naive

It's never that simple. Barack is still being introduced to the country. How he handles this moment will define him for millions.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

14. Reagan

It worked for Ronald, and he was senile.

[kennetha]

16. It worked for Reagan

because he was running against a fine man who, unfortunately, happened to be a flawed and failed president. Even with approval ratings in Bushian territory, Carter might still have pulled it off except for a truly terrible debate performance on his part and a stellar debate performance by Reagan.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

19. MCain+Bush= Worst Recession since 1930's

Barack will win.

[goldcanyonaz]

13. I agree. It's going to be very ugly.

[dkf]

21. You hope its ugly you mean.

Pah. Obama is going to make things better for everyone, not because they are black or white or brown or whatever.

He is black and he is white and he has an Asian half sister. He is America and he is going to do what he can to heal this nation, so nobody feels they need to damn America any more.

[goldcanyonaz]

36. Uh huh...

[LisaL]

20. Those commercials are practically writing themselves.

[Hissyspit]

17. The "latte-liberal crowd?" They sell f*cking lattes at McDonald's.

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

22. and they are very good

Latte, umm....very good.

O Bama........very, very, very, good

[Voice for Peace]

23. A couple of video links, if you haven't seen them.. well worth your time

and I think might surprise you.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/as-this-video-shows-obamas-pat.php
This is a speech from 2006 in which he talks about the relationship between religion and politics. It's brilliant in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioaChVw_pUw
This is a white woman pastor speaking about Obama's church. Moving.


For the record, I do think you're wrong about Obama.. I don't think this is hurting him as much as many think. (and some hope).

[sorrybushisfromtexas]

25. doc03

Read post #5 and comment on it.

Do you agree or disagree.

[doc03]

41. I agree the USA is not perfect, but I

never owned a slave, never interned any Japanese, I'm not rich, never took any native Americans land etc. But Rev. Wright is nothing more than a hate monger and the congregation was eating it up, everyone of them were on their feet. I don't think it does his own people any good to preach hate for the entire white race, according to him they are all victims of whites racism. Like I said I never owned a slave, none of my ancestors ever owned a slave. Some fought on the Union side in the Civil War and some may have even been involved in the Underground Railroad, thousands of slaves passed right through this area. I saw this black lady comedian (can't recall her name)on Jay Leno the other night and she said we are going to have to find a new excuse. She said we always blame the Man but if Obama wins we will be the Man. There's a lot of truth to that. Didn't Bill Cosby catch a lot of flack a few years ago for sort saying to get over blaming everyone else for all their problems?

[Voice for Peace]

46. not sure if your request was directed at me?

I don't disagree except that I don't believe in a God that damns one way or the other. I think it's people who do the damning. Rev. Wright doesn't bother me at all. I think people are making a big deal out of nothing and that it's not going to hurt Obama's campaign.

[PerfectSage]

63. But, but , but those links don't come from newsmax. They can't be true. lol

Thanks for the links

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DesEtoiles]

26. Pfffft.

[Quixote1818]

27. He is pulling it off because all he has to do is act natural and be who he is.

Ever fucking think about that?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoof Hearted]

30. Obama's possiblility to have it at all has come to an end. He's

“I ceased to advertise my mother’s race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.” - Barack Obama.

[anonymous171]

39. So you were trying to make him the black man...

[LisaL]

40. He is a black man, why does anyone have to try to make him one?

[Forkboy]

38. Well, at least you managed to do this without using Newsmax.

[cooolandrew]

42. It's OK it'll be fine we llove Obama anyway. READY TO GO. =)

[avrdream]

44. Interesting analysis.

At least you are thinking things through instead of just blindly REACTING like so many here on GD-P are. What you say makes sense.

And, it appears that Barry has juggled these two extremes quite well so far. IMHO, that is sad, because he isn't going to get a free ride as our candidate and I personally don't believe he is ready yet to be POTUS.

[kennetha]

45. Thanks

It seems pretty near impossible to get a thoughtful conversation going here these days.

[EFerrari]

47. Obama will not lose the black community.

Because that community, like any community that has had to survive bigotry in this country, knows exactly what he's up against.

[kennetha]

49. I agree

He can't lose the black community. But I can imagine the black community becoming slightly less motivated and turning out for him slightly less heavily.

[anamandujano]

61. BO doesn't even have to do the NAFTA wink-wink with this. They

already know he is doing it for political expediency.

Therefore, his black support will not erode at all.

White support, woman support, Jewish support and other races Wright has grilled--that's another story. I guess we can just watch the polls.

[kennetha]

62. Pretty much agreed

But the one thing is that if "kow-towing" to whites, women, jews, etc somehow makes him look like a "sell-out" to AA's rather than like a man who will stand up for them, then he might lose some AA support. THink about how Trinity United is defending itself and its minister yesterday and today. At some point, Obama may have to take a stand either pro Trinity and Wright or against Trinity and Wright. I know it's simplistic and probably much more complicated and nuanced than the media will portray it. But our public discourse has almost no room for complicated, nuanced, subtle debate.

[anamandujano]

64. I'm not really sure how it will play out but think his AA support, as well as

his numbnut supporters here will rationalize just about anything he says or does.

The rest of the country will decide what happens to his career over this.

[dionysus]

50. uh, you're a douchebag?

[suston96]

51. Thoughtful and well written ......nt

[moobu2]

54. Barack will have a hard time race baiting in the GE

when they have a full blown racist outed from the closet.

[ronnykmarshall]

55. Oh my stars!

:hide:

[Seabiscuit]

56. I don't buy the notion that the vast majority of black voters approve of Wright's message and

falsely equate his hate speech with "black churches" everywhere.

Obama would be better off quitting the church now, condemning Wright for turning his place of "worship" into a soap-box for racist and sexist hate speech.

Sure, it will ring hollow, because Barack has been sitting there listening to that maniac for 20 years now and no one but his most ardent and denial-ridden supporters will try to ignore that fact. The MSM and the Repuke 527's certainly never will. Because it's the biggest glaring contradiction to his claim of superior "judgment".

Barack blew it by not quitting that church before he bagan his presidential campaign. It has now come home to roost, and it will undoubtedly take him down for good. For the good of the country, I hope it's before the convention so that it doesn't cost us the election in November.

Just a week ago Rasmussen polls put Barack up at 50% to 42% for Hillary. Today they came out with new results showing Hillary at 48% and Barack at 42%. That's a swing of 14% (!!!) in just 5-7 days.

If this keeps up, Clinton may win Pennsylvania by a ratio of 70% or more to 30% or less, and by May could take the delegate lead away from Barack. Better now than having a crippled candidate lose big to McCain in November.

[kennetha]

57. I wouldn't say the "vast majority" approve either

But I do think Wright's anger and defiance has a certain resonance among a certain segment of the AA population. That defiance and anger isn't a stance or a pretense. It's deeply felt and connected to lived experience in America for many blacks -- especially inner city blacks. Of course, the anger and defiance is also mixed in with a lot of social activism in the Chicago, from what I understand. Many blacks are probably willing to accept the whole package -- the anger and defiance and the social activism. But again, I wouldn't predict that the "vast majority" share the anger and defiance. But I do think they probably understand it, even if they don't share it, and view it as an authentic way for Black preacher to express himself.

[Zodiak]

60. Care to link that Rasmussen poll?

Nah...you probably won't...because you are lying.

"The dialogue about Wright’s controversial comments appears to have had at least a short-term impact on public perceptions of Barack Obama. The Illinois Senator is viewed favorably today by just 47% of voters nationwide. That’s down five points since last Thursday (see recent daily results). The number with an unfavorable view of Obama has risen from 44% on Thursday to 50% today. Among White voters, Obama is now viewed favorably by 43% and unfavorably by 54%."

This is from Rasmussen today...it has not been 14 points...it has been 5.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/daily_presidential_tracking_poll

I hate full of shit posts.

[elixir]

59. k