Dean and Kennedy attacked by members of DLC for going too far.

[ECH1969]

Former Vermont governor Howard Dean described Iraq as "Bushgate, which is far more serious than Watergate in many ways because 600 . . . Americans are dead, in addition to countless Iraqis.

"Will Marshall, president of the Progressive Policy Institute, said that even if Kerry is temperate in his criticisms, he could be hurt by the comments of others. "I think the campaign needs to be wary of the risk of mixed messages," he said. Rand Beers, national security adviser to Kerry's campaign, said, "Senator Kennedy did not clear his speech with us and Governor Dean did not clear his comments with us, nor would we expect them to, even though we talk to them."

Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution said Kerry, in contrast to Dean, has set the right tone. "Anything that goes right goes to their benefit," he said of the administration. "But anything that goes wrong is due to their action. What we've seen in the last 12 months is incompetence following incompetence, arrogance following arrogance, ignorance following ignorance. Kerry is right to point that out, quietly as he has."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56064-2004Apr6.html

In one of the political chat rooms I lurk at they were debating if Dean and Kennedy have gone to far in attacking the war and the administration in that the American public will see them and thus Kerry as unpatriotic in a time of war. I was suprised how many dems in chat thought that Dean and Kennedy should shut up. I wonder what the people here think.

[swag]

1. Dean and Kennedy are fantastic

and need to keep talking.

[flpoljunkie]

81. The point of the article...JK's pointing out Bush's inflexible ineptitude

"I think they wanted to get the troops out, get the transfer out of the way as fast as possible without regard to the stability of Iraq," Kerry told reporters after a campaign rally here. "It is a mistake to set an arbitrary date and I hope that date has nothing to do with the elections here in the United States." - John Kerry

[NMDemDist2]

2. sing it loud! sing it clear! Bush lies and people die n/t

[Semi_subversive]

11. Amen!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. I think Will Marshall should go fuck himself

but that's just me :D

[madfloridian]

24. I notice we agree a lot lately.

:hi:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. We agree on loads of shit

we just get caught up in the details :hi:

[madfloridian]

35. Yep!

:hi:

[AntiCoup2K4]

87. It's not just you

Actually, since Marshall happens to be a PNAC'er and a traitor against the United States, I personally think the son of a bitch should be shot at sunrise - along with the rest of those lying fascist MIHOPping bastards.

My only question is, will Kerry stand up to this walking pile of feces, since it's in his own best interest to do so?

[ithacan]

116. yes!

we're in total agreement :toast:

[Imperialism Inc.]

4. Wasn't Rand Beers in the Bush Administration at one point?

How did that switch happen?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

7. He realized what an incompetent bastard bush was. eom

[Imperialism Inc.]

29. Do you think Kerry will dump him after the election?

He's a real piece of shit.

[madfloridian]

36. Kerry better dump him before the election or speak up about this.

There are a whole lot of furious folks around about this tonight.

[Imperialism Inc.]

38. I don't see anything wrong with that statement above.

I just mean some of the crap he did in his previous role, mostly regarding Columbia and fumigation. Claimed FARC was training with al Qaeda (under oath) and later retracted it.

[madfloridian]

42. Do a search on the PPI and NDOL sites for Howard Dean.

Read the articles, trust me, there are many many of them. Then say there is nothing wrong with that. I don't like his previous roles either, but the issue here is his statements about Kennedy and Dean.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

86. He won't drop him. Because they see eye to eye unfortunately. eom

[patricia92243]

49. Beer was in Bush admin and now runs Kerry campaign!!! I'm flabbergasted.

[LandOLincoln]

128. Looks like some of your fellow DUers didn't get the message

that Rand Beers is a "NeoCon Fascist" who "wants Kennedy and Dean to shut up:"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x495927

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

5. I'm sure a lot of peopel here feel that they should say

whatever the fuck they want to say. How about you?

[bloom]

6. I think not

I think the DLC seems like Republicans or worse when I hear this stuff.

There have been many Republicans that criticize Bush* more than the DLC will.

[madfloridian]

8. That goes too far. Dean does NOT have to clear his speech with Kerry!

Either Kerry speaks up on this or a backfire is coming big time.

Howard Dean is a human being, and I pray to God he keeps talking. Marshall and Beers both seem to be pushing Kerry to the right.

This is it. Kerry stands up for Dean's right to speak or no vote.

[Old and In the Way]

31. Why not read the statement first,?

Your anti-Kerry bias is clouding your reading comprehension skills.

[madfloridian]

34. He said Dean does not need to clear his statements.

That is NOT the tone of the article. They are wanting to play nice and proper, and I hope to goodness Dean and Kennedy keep speaking out.

It was implied they were hurting Kerry. You read it between the lines. Think for yourself, not just in Kerry think, and you will see that I am mostly right here. You can not wiggle out of the wrongness of this article.

[Old and In the Way]

67. Now you are hearing tones and implying meanings?

I'm reading the statement, you are reading between lines. Or maybe your silly Kerry bashing is fogging up your glasses.

You really should get on board with Dean and support Kerry. You do support Howard, don't you? Or has he sold out to the DLC/Corporate, Tri-lateral Illuminati, too? Or maybe you just really want to see George Bush re-elected?

[madfloridian]

88. It is all quite clear. Did you not hear when I said we donated to Kerry?

Did you not hear that Dean donors gave Kerry a lot of money? Your statement about "silly Kerry bashing" is untruthful. Look me up, ok.

[ACK]

9. Kerry is doing exactly what he needs to do

He criticizes Bush on the big picture while cheering surrogates (actually I find that term demeaning) ... allies to fire the hardcore nasty grams at Bush on the day to day tragedies.

There is one part of this article that is so true.

There are nothing but shitty options left to Kerry.

Leave Iraq and have even more Iraqis die in a country in shambles with the infrastructure still in dire need of rebuilding.

Stay long enough to rebuild and be accused of postponing the inevitable and causing more American casualties with no clear and absolute chance that they will be able to rebuild before even more huge tragedies happen.

Nothing but crappy choices from a crappy war.

[madfloridian]

13. HOGWASH

.

[Old and In the Way]

28. Nice refute.

I liked the part about "hogwash".

We have screwed Iraq for 35 years. The place is a basket case, thanks largely to the fault of US policy.

IMHO, the 1st thing Kerry should do, when elected, is to go to the UN and form a coalition to fix the infrastructure of Iraq. We should underwrite it, too. Concurrently, establish a UN policeforce and bring the Sunni's, Shi'ites, and Kurds in to discuss the future of Iraq. If they can't decide on a democracy to run the state, then split the country along ethnic lines. Let the UN control the oil and split the profits according to the population % of each state.

Then, we leave.

[madfloridian]

33. It is only thing that describes this pandering.

Right now, hogwash best describes the situation of our fearful spineless Democrats. I just could not think of another answer.

I fully realize now how little any of it means. Kerry approved of this war, and he needs to get courage to speak up. I think he believed in the war, and I don't think he was fooled. He is way too smart for that. This is a ridiculous thing to do to blame Dean and Kennedy for hurting him.

Kerry needs to get a spine and tell his advisors to buzz right back to the PPI and DLC!!

He unlinks Kos, Dean links Kos. Dean will continue to speak his mind, and I hope to God Teddy Kennedy does, too.

So, hogwash is a very good term. IMHO

[Old and In the Way]

68. Dean's is working to get Kerry elected President.

Why aren't you supporting Dean? So is Kos. Maybe you really aren't a Democrat?

[madfloridian]

89. Why are Kerry advisors implying these things?

Stand up for the viewpoint...defend what Marshall and Beers say. Don't go after me for opposing their view.

Do you agree with what they say? If so, defend it. I am entitled to my view.

[sangh0]

94. Because they have opinions

I thought you were all in favor of free speech.

Do you agree with what they say? If so, defend it. I am entitled to my view

I don't care what they say. I care what President Kerry DOES.

And they're entitled to their view.

[madfloridian]

100. That is not defending their view.

You are fussing at me, not defending Beers and Marshall. I just suggested you defend what you are agreeing with.

[sangh0]

105. I'm not going to defend Beers and Marshall

I don't agre with them, but they do have a right to say what they think.

[AntiCoup2K4]

104. What part of MARSHALL AND BEERS ARE NEOCON FASCISTS

....don't you understand??

[sangh0]

106. The part

where it's OK to deny rights to the people you don't like. You've been whining all over DU about how Nader has a right to voice his issues, but I guess others are not as fortunate as Nader.

[AntiCoup2K4]

110. When Ralph Nader invades a country in the name of global corporate fascism

..I'll tell him to shut the fuck up as well.

[sangh0]

113. Marshall invaded Iraq?

IN which dimension?

I'll tell him to shut the fuck up as well.

I'm glad to see that your love of free speech extends only to those whose opinions you support. I'll be bookmarking this post for the next time you start ranting about free speech in order to show how little you understand about the concept.

[AntiCoup2K4]

124. Marshall is a PNAC'er.

And PNAC is responsible for the invasion of Iraq.

As if you didn't know :eyes:

And do I care about the free speech of traitors who are trying to turn this country into a fascist empire?

No, quite frankly I DON'T. They don't deserve to breathe air, much less speak, since they are traitors dedicated to the destruction of American democracy. Not to mention exploiting the rest of the planet.

[LandOLincoln]

122. All right, I'll defend Beers' statement, since I think he's saying

the opposite of what you're so convinced he's saying.

"Senator Kennedy did not clear his speech with us and Governor Dean did not clear his comments with us, nor would we expect them to, even though we talk to them."

To me, that says pretty clearly that the Kerry camp is fine with what Kennedy and Dean are saying and doesn't expect or want them to clear anything ahead of time.

Please see my post #121 below for the rest of my response--and watch for my response to your posting of Common Dreams foolish attempt to paint Clark as being in favor of the invasion of Iraq. I'll be posting that too just as soon as I get some time.

[Democat]

123. Bush has been very successful in letting others make the hard attacks

Kerry can do the same if the Democratic Party can get organized.

Let Kerry seem diplomatic while the others (Dean, Kennedy, etc.) go on a full scale attack and say what needs to be said.

Kerry can't be screaming his head off too much or he will seem too angry and non-presidential.

Let those surrounding him do the meanest work that needs to be done.

[David Zephyr]

10. Who Cares What These Bastards Think! Fuck Them All.

Where were they when Ted Kennedy stood with Kerry?

Where were they when Howard Dean spoke out against the lies about Iraq?

Fuck them and the sawhorses they ride on.

[madfloridian]

12. How dare they! I am outraged.

"Rand Beers, national security adviser to Kerry's campaign, said, "Senator Kennedy did not clear his speech with us and Governor Dean did not clear his comments with us, nor would we expect them to, even though we talk to them." "

[ACK]

17. Rand Beers said the right thing!

Neither Dean or Kennedy should clear speeches through the Kerry campaign.

Rand Beers said that they were NOT expected to, even though the campaign talks to them.

Translation for political speak. We know they are going to talk and what is going on but we are not sitting around rubber-stamping their messages.

Any other answer would be demeaning to a Senior Senator and former Governor. They do not need Kerry's permission and Kerry is saying he is not expecting them to get permission.

[madfloridian]

19. They need to hush.

.

[Terry_M]

14. Yay, let's rip Dean's and Kennedy's spines out!

That'll make all democrats equally useless, as opposed to the differences we see now.

[malatesta1137]

15. Get Kennedy in the ticket!

Kennedy had two brothers assassinated, why should he take Bush's bullshit sitting down?

Get him for the VP spot.

[madfloridian]

18. They want to shut him up! Why would they want him on the ticket!

.

[JI7]

46. that's why Kerry had Kennedy campaign for him

even though kennedy has already given a bunch of these speeches criticizing bush.

[madfloridian]

52. He wants Kennedy on the ticket? Fine.

Whatever, but Dean needs to keep his distance and keep speaking out. Kerry is allowing his advisors to play this all wrong.

[sangh0]

108. Dean has endorsed Kerry and is out campaigning for Kerry

and Dean has nothing critical about Kerry's advisors. Maybe you should take the hint

[madfloridian]

131. Maybe I should take the hint?

There are a lot of implied threats like that lately.

I speak for me. I am critical of any advisors of anyone who advocate our remaking the map of the mideast and/or the world as do the members of the PNAC think tank.

If you have not read the articles at DLC and PPI that they have written about Dean, you really should.

Dean is no liberal, but they attempted to paint him as one. They make fun of those who oppose the war. If you have not read the goals of the PNAC, you really should.

That is who is setting the agenda for our nominee. You may make fun of me, say rude things, and just generally disagree with me. That is fine.

You can not deny who is setting the agenda for our nominee.

[LandOLincoln]

115. Oh sure, they want Teddy to shut up. The Kerry campaign

wants all the Kerry surrogates to shut up.

That's why the Kerry campaign is booking Kennedy and Clark and Dean and Edwards and Graham and etc. into every TV and radio show they can--because they want them to shut up.

Boy, are those guys devious! :tinfoilhat: :eyes:

[madfloridian]

16. Kerry has a very short time to make this right. This is deadly for him.

SNIP...."Some of Kerry's most prominent surrogates have ripped the administration's Iraq policies. On Monday, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (Mass.) called Iraq "George Bush's Vietnam," drawing rebukes from Bush's GOP allies. On Sunday, appearing on CNN's "Late Edition," former Vermont governor Howard Dean described Iraq as "Bushgate, which is far more serious than Watergate in many ways because 600 . . . Americans are dead, in addition to countless Iraqis."

Will Marshall, president of the Progressive Policy Institute, said that even if Kerry is temperate in his criticism, he could be hurt by the comments of others. "I think the campaign needs to be wary of the risk of mixed messages," he said. ...."

[Gloria]

22. The most effective and on message is Wes Clark...and if he is the

VP nominee, it will be even better. I wish Kerry would name him so that the visibility would go up. Clark is clear and Americans can understand what he is saying.

He got to the point last night on CNN when he said the Admin. can't get past Chalabi as their favorite puppet. The Iraqis don't want a phony
leader, and Wes is right...it's the political solution that has to be worked, or military or no military, we LOSE.

Frankly, I'm not impressed with Kerry....Wes is doing the heavy lifting on this and Kerry really should name him, if he isn't already in the deal.
One Wes is named as VP, I will feel much better about this whole thing.

[madfloridian]

23. That is so silly. Kennedy and Dean are outstanding on this.

Clark is as well, but you can not say he is the only one. That is silly. You can jump me if you want, I am past caring.

[Gloria]

25. He has the experience/crediblity and he seems to be the "official"

surrogate in terms of appearances for Kerry. April 17, he'll be out again at a party dinner (Nebraska? one of those states) as a surrogate.

Kennedy and Dean are fine, but Clark seems to be the one with the direct link to Kerry so far....

And, no matter how many times others say they're not speaking for Kerry, we all know that the media will never make that clear to the public and it will all go back to Kerry. Some care is required with the type of media we are faced with.

[madfloridian]

27. You know what? This is just plain not about Clark. Sorry.

Clark is great, he is good. The article is about Kennedy whom I admire and Dean whom I admire. It is NOT about Clark.

[JI7]

43. excuse me ?

it's interesting you go around here trying to claim people are trying to get dean to shut up just because they might disagree with him. in ted kennedy's case he has been saying things and giving these speeches for months and john kerry never told him to shut up, in fact he had him with him out there campaigning for him and on super tuesday night kennedy was the one who gave the speech right before kerry spoke. and why can't clark supporters talk about what wes clark is doing ? is it about the issues , of iraq ? or is it about dean ? i see nothing wrong with what she said about clark. wes clark opposed bush and spoke out against him also. to respond by saying this is not about clark just doesn'tmake any sense.

[madfloridian]

53. It is not about Clark, not this article.

Kerry loves Clark, let him be VP. I just don't want Dean near him if he is censored.

Dean said Bushgate....he is right. Kerry needs to get a backbone very soon.

[JI7]

58. Wes Clark has not spoken about Iraq ?

this article is about iraq also.

[sangh0]

114. Dean also said "Support Kerry, and "vote for Kerry"

but it's OK to ignore what Dean says when you disagree with it.

[Guaranteed]

66. LOL okay whatever. nt

[terisel]

20. I am hoping they are just saying so in order to prevent

Bush from being able to use their statements to launch a direct attack on Kerry- of the "Kerry is picking on me" variety.

I think it is good for Dean and Kennedy to speak out strongly on their own.

I'm still not hearing a big Republican defense of Bush at this point-I am hoping that every day they are seeing the political wisdom of keeping their distance.

[bklyncowgirl]

79. Strategy? Kennedy and Dean Kerry's semi official flamethrowers

Kennedy and Dean are two high level Democrats who can take what the liberal talk show hosts and bloggers are already saying and bring it up to the next level.

Kennedy probably has the safest seat in the Senate and even if he were to be thrown out of office he'd still be a Kennedy. Throwing bombs at Bush is what made Howard Dean a national figure.

If either goes too far, Kerry can back away. More than likely though, this will set the tone of the debate with guys like Wes Clark, Bob Graham and other foreign policy and military pros coming in to explain exactly why Bush is a liar and this war is a diseaster.

[madfloridian]

21. Dean has said over and over he is NOT speaking for Kerry.

Kerry camp needs to hush. I am disgusted over that article.

To those of you think this is a surrogate, not surrogate game, I suggest you go to the PPI and NDOL online sites and read the horrible stuff they have used to attack Dean.

This is no game they are playing.

[saracat]

125. I am soo tired of

People whining about Dean and trying to make him front and center about everything. Kerry needs to be somwhat diplomatic while still maintaining an edge. The last thing he needs is to be associated with the Dean Hysterics and foot in mouth experience that marred Dean's campaign. Dean destroyed himself and alot of people don't want that rhetoric around Kerry. And just maybe they are right. I notice not many people voted for CDean and we must get everyone and thats the operative word ,everyone to vote for Kerry.

[madfloridian]

132. I am tired of people telling me they are tired of what I say.

I am an American, a loyal one. I do not like what is happening to my country.

I would like for you to read what you just posted, and realize that it is not all about Kerry either. We all still have our voices, and it is still a country of varied opinions.

It is obvious you detest Dean and all his followers. Frankly, none of us especially care if you do or not. It just does not matter because we have our own goals.

The worst thing you can do right now is hush the varied voices. Most of us are not still about Dean, not at all. We are working still as a group to keep our voices heard.

What you are doing, what Kerry's advisors are doing, is really to hush voices that differ with the goals of "progressive internationalism." And I do....differ, that is. Bigtime.

[LandOLincoln]

134. Nobody detests "Dean and all his followers" but some of

us are getting pretty sick and tired of the constant paranoia and hysteria displayed by some Dean followers, nor do we appreciate having our candidates vilified as "PNAC fascists" and "war criminals" by Dean followers and so-called progressives who think anyone to the right of Che Guevara is a NeoCon and a traitor.

You in particular have consistently ignored ANYONE who's pointed out--sometimes time and time again--that Kerry and his campaign not only DO NOT want Kennedy and Dean to "shut up," they're booking the two of them AND Wes Clark AND John Edwards AND Bob Graham into every radio and television talk show in existence, and for as often as the traffic will bear.

And while none of you have established that Ivo Daalder or Will Marshall have any official connection to the Kerry campaign, at the same time you've totally ignored those of us who've pointed out that the statement of Rand Beers--who does have an official connection to the Kerry campaign--clearly means exactly the opposite of what you are determined to believe it does.

The inescapable conclusion is that some of you are sore losers, just as another poster said, and have chips on your shoulders that lead you to imagine slights where none in fact exist.



edited to remove excess italics

[madfloridian]

136. Daalder advised Dean....Marshall wrote Kerry's Jan. 21 speech.

Dean is no liberal, he is not anti-war. He was anti-Iraq war. I am not a sore loser, as we have not lost anything. I am sorry you don't understand what I am saying. My point is that Dean and Kennedy's stances did not even have to be mentioned at all by the Kerry campaign. It would have been best to ignore. I don't know where you got the idea that I was really leftish or that Howard Dean was...I am strongly against the Iraq invasion...that has to do with honesty and morality.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040223&s=foer022304
Dean supporters Face Retribution
SNIP..."What makes this rebuke of Dean's foreign policy particularly odd is that Daalder was himself a primary architect of that policy. It was Daalder who helped draft the speech Dean delivered at the Pacific Council for International Policy last December, outlining his approach to national security. In foreign policy interviews Dean gave to The Washington Post and The New York Times a day before that speech, Daalder sat by the governor's side. Similarly, it was Daalder who presided over a question-and-answer session at the National Press Club, when the Dean campaign unveiled its foreign policy team. According to one of his Brookings colleagues, who watched a procession of high-powered Democrats traipse to Daalder's office to pay respect to Dean, "Ivo was The Guy...."
SNIP..."Why is Daalder backpedaling so furiously? Because he understands that he could suffer payback for his Deaniac days...."

Here is an excerpt about Will Marshall advising Kerry. I am sorry your opinion of me is so low, but it really does not bother me. I am secure about myself. I don't need your approval.
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/other_stories/multi2/documents/02833709.asp

"First, there’s Harlan Ullman, author of the " Shock and Awe " concept
employed by the Pentagon at the start of the war against Iraq, who shares
Kerry’s background as Naval veteran of the Vietnam War. And there’s Will
Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute (the think tank linked to the
centrist-leaning Democratic Leadership Council), whom Kerry tapped to draft
his January 21 Georgetown speech. He’s also been in touch with Michael O’
Hanlon, a senior fellow in foreign-policy studies at the Brookings
Institution. O’Hanlon spoke out in favor of continued " containment " of
Saddam Hussein in February 2001, but came out in support of Bush’s Iraq
policy after the president addressed the United Nations on September 12,
2002. Testifying before the House Armed Services Committee on October 2,
2002, O’Hanlon predicted between 1000 and 5000 American casualties in a war
with Iraq."

[jburton]

26. DLC can kiss Teds ass

This is the first time they've made the press since their poo-poo on Dean days.

They must be happy, in that dour sort of DLC way that they can now piss on Kennedy.

With the exception of Bobby Byrd, I think Teddy Kennedy is the most historically knowledgeable, solid, fighting, REAL Democrat we've got.

DLC can kiss his ass.

[IndianaGreen]

30. The Kerry campaign thinks it is wrong to refer to Iraq as Bush's Vietnam!

Rand Beers, national security adviser to Kerry's campaign, said, "Senator Kennedy did not clear his speech with us and Governor Dean did not clear his comments with us, nor would we expect them to, even though we talk to them."

Kerry does not support bringing the troops home preferring instead to keep them there until Iraq "stabilizes." Now we have members of Kerry's campaign and national security team trying to douse any talk that Iraq is another Vietnam. Why? Perhaps it is because Kerry has the same goals that Bush had in invading Iraq, but Kerry thinks that he can manage the occupation more efficiently than Bush. If this is the case, then Kerry is as delusional about Iraq as the neocons in the Pentagon.

From a political standpoint, I think Kerry is missing an historic opportunity to drive a wooden stake through Bush's phony war on terror. In football terms, Kerry has chosen to punt on first down!

[JI7]

37. even Howard Dean never said he would remove the troops

[madfloridian]

39. Dean said he would get mostly foreign troops

Besides, the issue is that Kerry is petrified of people speaking out. Shame on him. Dean has always said it would not be good to pull out without getting other troops in there. Now it is just about too late for any troops.

[IndianaGreen]

41. Kucinich did--within 90 days

But even Dennis's plan has been overtaken by events. The only way to save lives is by leaving Iraq to the Iraqis, and pulling all military and civilian personnel out of Iraq.

We can no more "win" in Iraq than we could in Vietnam.

[JI7]

45. within 90 days ?

why within 90 days ? and what would happen after 90 days ?

[IndianaGreen]

48. All of that is moot now

The premise was that we had done enough harm to Iraq, going back to the time the US engineered the coup that put the Baathist in power. All of that is moot now.

[JI7]

51. so Kucinich wants immediate withdrawal of troops now ?

[IndianaGreen]

55. No, he had a timetable of 90 days

Current events show that Dennis's timetable is too long. We must get out of Iraq ASAP without having to wait until next year.

[JI7]

60. well i am talking about right now

has kucinich changed his position in response to change in events and now calls for immediate withdrawal of all troops ? that's what kerry supported in vietnam.

[IndianaGreen]

62. Dennis still calls for UN involvement--Iraqis don't want the UN either!

http://www.kucinich.us/pressreleases/pr_040404.php

[diamondsoul]

90. He's dropped the time-table from the

entire plan. He still advocates the same 10 point plan but without an estimated time it would take to complete the withdrawal.

http://www.kucinich.us/issues/iraq.php

"America must make a dramatic reversal of course: we must acknowledge that the continued U.S. military presence in Iraq is counterproductive and destabilizing. We have a choice in front of us: either we change course, withdraw our troops and request that the UN move in, or we sink deeper into this occupation, with more U.S. casualties, ever higher financial costs, and diminished security for all Americans."

"We must work to bring Iraq back into the community of nations, not through destruction, but through constructive action worldwide. America, with the international community, can help negotiate a resolution with Iraq that encompasses unfettered inspections, the end of sanctions, and the cessation of the regime-change policy. America can do this. We have the power to do this. We must have the will to do this. It must be the will of the American people expressed through the direct action of peaceful insistence, and this is the place to begin that. If we begin this in any place in America, begin it here!"

[RainDog]

44. The Iraqi occupation is nothing but a neocon pile of shite

...and Kerry should tell the truth to the American people.

The Bush League lied to Americans to draw them into a mess which they had been planning for a DECADE...

but even so, they were and are so incompetent they failed FROM THE MOMENT THE INVASION BEGAN.

They got rid of the Generals who told the truth about troop numbers needed.

They lied about WMD. They lied about ties to Al-Qaeda.

They lied, and ignored experienced Generals' testimony that invading Iraq would make America and the world more vulnerable to terrorism.

Kerry really disappointed me by agreeing to the IWR. He disappoints me now that he is not telling the American people we need to GET RID OF THE BUSH LEAGUE to make us safer.

Those people who want to blame the messenger should be called out because this isn't just politics. This is about the life and death of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians and hundreds, and who knows how many more, of American soldiers' lives.

A war on terror is not fought via conventional means. Until America understands this, by our leaders helping them to understand this, we will continue to do terrible things.

Personally, I think the Bush league should be charged with war crimes and America should totally repudiate this horrific regime.

This can pave the way for some sanity.

If Kerry thinks he can continue to let corporations loot Iraq and that America can continue to keep military bases there...

well, let me just say that I have NEVER voted for any president. Looks like that's the way it will be until someone in this country decides that the American people deserve as much representation as corporations and especially the military-industrial killing for profit machine.

[LandOLincoln]

121. IMHO, Rand Beers is saying the exact opposite of what so many of

you seem to think he's saying.

"Senator Kennedy did not clear his speech with us and Governor Dean did not clear his comments with us, nor would we expect them to, even though we talk to them."

To me, that says pretty clearly that the Kerry camp is fine with what Kennedy and Dean are saying and doesn't expect or want them to clear anything ahead of time.

And since it's the KERRY CAMPAIGN which is booking these guys onto the talk shows in the first place, you gotta admit that's a pretty strange way of "stifling" them, isn't it?

[madfloridian]

40. We better watch that Dean guy tomorrow. 3 radio appearances.

Will Marshall better assign someone to listen, don't you think? Someone pop him a note to monitor tomorrow.

3 Radio Shows Tomorrow!
First, Governor Dean will appear LIVE in the final segment of Ed Schultz's morning show "News and Views" http://www.kfgo.com/talk/ed/ed.html . The show runs from 9:30am-12:00pm EST. The interview will then be rebroadcast on Ed Schultz's afternoon show "The Ed Schultz Show" which runs 3-6pm EST.

Next, Governor Dean will appear LIVE after the top of the 12pm EST hour on the John McMullen Show http://www.johnmcmullen.com/index.html which runs daily from 11am-2pm EST.

Finally, he will appear on the "Tony Trupiano Show" http://www.thetonyshow.com / which airs from 4-6pm EST. If you can't find a way to listen online on the TTS Show, you can check www.mlive.com or www.radiopower.org, both of which carry the show.
The Ed Schultz show can be streamed here:
http://www.620knews.com/listen/index.php

John McMullen show here:
http://tinyurl.com/3cdk4

The Tony Trupiano show here:
http://www.radiopower.org/talkradio /

[patricia92243]

47. Kerry cannot win being "Bush-lite".

[IndianaGreen]

50. Iraq's invasion was a mistake

Continuing the occupation of Iraq, with or without NATO or the UN, is also a mistake.

The time to withdraw the troops is NOW.

[Alenne]

54. I don't see an attack on Kennedy or Dean in this article. nt

[madfloridian]

56. Read it again.

Not a direct attack, an implied one.

[Alenne]

57. I read it five times already

trying to find an attack. I don't see it.

[madfloridian]

59. Some here do not get what is going on.

That is ok. This is serious. They are planning to go along with the right wing stategy, and they want
all who speak out to get out of the way.

Very sad.

[LandOLincoln]

64. And some here don't seem to understand the plain,

unvarnished English of "NOR WOULD WE EXPECT THEM TO."

[jsw_81]

61. Dean needs to watch his mouth

His stupid comments destroyed his own promising campaign and he better not try to bring down Senator Kerry just because he's bitter and can't handle the fact that he lost. You Deanies need to take a cold shower and come to grips with the fact that you lost and that Kerry is now in the driver's seat.

69. And what if he doesn't?

I don't like your implied threat, but I'm not going to get too sweaty over it because it's an empty threat.

Dean needs to do exactly what he is doing, and then some. Kerry won the nomination, not the sole right to speak. Kerry may be the nominee, but whether he's in the driver's seat is up to huim, not Dean. It takes action to drive the damn car, I don't give a damn where Kerry sits, if he doesn't lead it's his own fault.

UIt's funny that Dean has become to the Dem establiment what Clinton was/is to the Repukes -- a big bad Boogey Man

[JNelson6563]

77. New to politics are we?

Do you believe everything the Corporate media whores tell you?

*snicker*

Julie

[madfloridian]

96. So that is why you are so angry toward us.

I did not realize you thought all this stuff. Oh, my, you don't have a clue about Dean or about any of his supporters. We will think of you at our continuing meet-ups tonight, and we will think of you as the organizations of grassroots grow.

Kerry is not in the driver's seat. Will Marshall and Rand Beers are in the driver's seat. We fear Kerry is afraid to speak out enough.

The funny thing is you actually think we lost. No, we are winners. Dean is a powerful voice, and it does not matter whether Kerry and his advisors like it or not.

You thought we felt like losers? Oh, my goodness, no. We most certainly do not. We are just taking back the party another way.

[mzmolly]

97. BULL! Who the hell needs *wimpy wishy washy* politicians?

I'd have supported Zell Miller if I wanted a complacent R enabling Democrat.

"Watch his mouth" when people are dying because they were LIED into a war?! MY GOD PEOPLE WAKKKKKEEEE UPPPPP!!!!

We shouldn't be ANGRY ABOUT THAT?! :argh: WTF is in the water man!

Should Ted Kennedy (Kerry's buddy) "watch his mouth"? After all, he is a close personal family friend who ENDORSED Kerry?!

BTW, I realize Kerry is driving. :eyes: But, it's like taking a cross country trip with my elderly aunt who drives about 20 on the friggin freeway ...

One can only hope Kerry chooses an interesting and bold running mate who will fill in for his areas of weakness.

Thank God for Dean and Kennedy, people like them allow me to remain a proud part of this Political Party.

[AntiCoup2K4]

127. And he's driving right off the edge of a cliff...

....into PNAC canyon with Shitbag Marshall and "Ollie Replacement" Beers.

[Dr Fate]

63. I disagree. They need to say it again.

As long as they dont make anything up like the GOP & media does, it is fine.

[Guaranteed]

65. DLC morons want to lose another election.

THEY need to shut up. When they start winning elections, then they can say something.

Until then, SHUT UP.

[LandOLincoln]

70. Since the DLC candidate won the last three elections

I'm assuming you just forgot the "/sarcasm" after your spot on Bill O'Reilly imitation. :evilgrin:

[Guaranteed]

80. LOL yeah RIGHT

You have ONE...count them....**ONE** victory under your belt. Clinton beating Dole in '96.

'92 doesn't count because people just wanted Bush out.

2000 doesn't count because we LOST.

What you FAILED to mention is that we have been LOSING CONGRESSIONAL SEATS EVERY ELECTION since '94. Would you like to take credit for that, sir? It's all yours. Enjoy!

[LandOLincoln]

93. I am not a "sir,"

and your claims about the '92 and 2000 elections are as bogus as your perception of my gender.

And I'll "take credit" for the lost congressional seats as soon as you Nader-voting Bush enablers "take credit" for siphoning off enough votes in Florida ALONE to make our winning margin narrow enough for the BFEE to steal.

[Guaranteed]

101. Yeah, well your claims about my Nader-voting, which is non-existent,

are as false as your perception of my voting record! :P

Ma'am!

[LandOLincoln]

102. Touche...

Sir B.G. Loony. ;-)

[Piperay]

71. DLC has a good track record...

NOT! DLC lost it for us in 2000 and 2002 by having Democrats be repuglite, they can stick their criticism up where the sun doesn't shine. :argh: :mad: :grr:

[LandOLincoln]

72. I take it you disagree with the General, then, when he

accuses the Bushies of stealing the 2000 election?

[Piperay]

74. No, they stole it but

it should never have been close enough for them to have stolen.

[LandOLincoln]

76. It wouldn't have been close enough for them to steal

if the traitor and unashamed Bush-enabler Ralph Nader hadn't deliberately siphoned off nearly 100,000 votes in Florida alone. If only a TENTH of Nader's votes had gone to Al Gore instead, Dubya would still be playing video games in Texas.

[JVS]

119. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have a merry Xmas

[JVS]

118. for me to poop on!

I thought that was going to be the first kine of your message :-)

good post

[Finch]

73. Which Forum was this?

[lojasmo]

75. well colin powel agrees

so that must meen that the criticism of Dean and Kennedy is baseless. Personally, I think it's bullshit. Of course, since Kerry voted for the war, he's going to have to distance himself somewhat from the war's detractors, and isn't going to be able to go after the war as an election year issue-at not to the full extent possible.

[aneerkoinos]

78. Kerryites, I plead you!

Get rid of Rand Beers, Richard Holbrook and the rest of Washington neocons trying to take over Kerry campaign. Declare righteous jihad against those bastards!

[AntiCoup2K4]

129. Trying to take over???

No, they've been behind it from the beginning. Will "PNAC Shitbag" Marshall and Rand "Ollie North's replacement" Beers have been aboard the Kerry trainwreck for months. Those who got behind Kerry because they truly believed he was the same man as he was in 1972 have been greatly decieved. Those who believed he was the "only one who could beat Bush" were even more so. :(

[w4rma]

82. I think Will Marshall is more concerned about his pet issue being slammed.

It is my understanding that Marshall has strongly pushed support for this invasion and occupation.

[IrateCitizen]

85. Not only that, Will Marshall is a PNAC signatory

Recently, he published a paper calling for MORE troops to be deployed to the region. He actually said that we need more armor and more light infantry in the region -- I am assuming he said this because we all know how well-trained armor and light infantry are in policing and peacekeeping duties. :eyes:

In short, he's a complete hack, a willing tool of the neoconservative agenda.

83. Some Kerry advisors also think McCain is a good idea for VP

should we listen to them?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles...s_running_mate/
For Kerry aides, McCain would fit bill as running mate
Naming Republican seen as potent lure to undecided voters
By Glen Johnson, Globe Staff, 4/6/2004


Is John Dean going too far calling for Bush's impeachment?

etc.
etc.

Unpatriotic in a time of war? Way to buy into the republican talking points.

[apnu]

84. The DLC can bite my pimpled, hairy ass! (eom)

[pezcore64]

91. lol

its a good thing we arent electing a DLC democrat! .....

ohhhh wait ;)

[FDRrocks]

92. Uh oh!

[mzmolly]

95. The people here think that Repulicans should stop defining our agenda.

The people here think that MORE Dems should stop pissing their pants at the thought of conflict with the R's. :scared:

The people here think the Democrats need Ted and Dean and others like them because they have a friggin spine!

oohhhhhhhmmmm, oohhhhhhmmmmm ...

GO TED and ... GO DEAN!!! :toast:

[madfloridian]

98. I notice that the Dean blog linked to Kos yesterday, mzmolly.

I thought that was good.
:hi:

[mzmolly]

99. Great to hear MF. I don't get there as often as I like but I love any

thing Dean centric. Lot's of really good info there and some good folks too.

:hi:

Maybe I'll see ya round those parts? ;)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

103. I'll let my signature line...

speak for me.

[dolstein]

107. DU'ers don't understand the audience we're playing to

Kerry is trying to broaden his base of support to include Democratic voters who who didn't participate in the primaries, as well as independents and disgruntled moderate Republicans. Polls show that these voters don't know that much about him, other than perhaps what the Bush campaign is telling them.

If DU'ers believe that rants by Kennedy and Dean are the way to appeal to this group, they are kidding themselves. Kennedy and Dean are great for throwing red meat at the die hard Bush haters. So let them go on Air America. Let them give interviews to Joe Conanson. But keep them off the networtk news, since they aren't going to win over the votes that Kerry needs.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

109. The same Will Marshall who's in on the PNAC deal?

Him and the "Progressive" Policy Institute?

Why should anyone care what he says about anything, especially when he claims about people being too tough on poor Bushyboy?

[AntiCoup2K4]

112. Because he's writing Kerry's foreign policy

.....and working out of the DLC's head office.

Face it folks, we've been swindled. Our so called nominee is a tool of the very same fascists currently in the White House :(

[LandOLincoln]

117. A PNAC signatory is "writing Kerry's foreign policy?"

I'm sure you'll provide the links to prove that assertion...?

Thank you.

[AntiCoup2K4]

130. Not a problem

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqstatement-031903.htm
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqstatement-032803.htm

[LandOLincoln]

133. Yes, I know Marshall is a PNACer. What I'm asking for is a link

proving that he's "writing Kerry's foreign policy."

What I don't see is Rand Beers' name on that document, and he definitely is now one of Kerry's foreign policy advisors (after quitting his counterterrorism job in protest of the NeoCon's obsession with Iraq, among other things):

"Rand Beers, a former No. 2 in the office who quit last year over the administration's handling of the war on terrorism, told Reuters the turnover had been 'unusually high' since the hijacked airliner attacks in New York and Washington.

"And one of the reasons is frustration with the way counterterrorism policy has been conducted, including the focus on Iraq," said Beers, who now serves as a foreign policy adviser for Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, who hopes to unseat Bush in November.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x495927

Yeah, that Beers is a real NeoCon, just like Kerry, just like Wes Clark. :tinfoilhat:

[AntiCoup2K4]

137. Kerry uses the phrase "Progressive Internationalism" on his own web site.

That phrase, and the whitewashed version of PNAC which it represents, are the work of PNAC shitbag Will Marshall.

[madfloridian]

138. Here is a link. More at my post above.

http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/other_stories/multi2/documents/02833709.asp

"First, there’s Harlan Ullman, author of the " Shock and Awe " concept
employed by the Pentagon at the start of the war against Iraq, who shares
Kerry’s background as Naval veteran of the Vietnam War. And there’s Will
Marshall of the Progressive Policy Institute (the think tank linked to the
centrist-leaning Democratic Leadership Council), whom Kerry tapped to draft
his January 21 Georgetown speech. He’s also been in touch with Michael O’
Hanlon, a senior fellow in foreign-policy studies at the Brookings
Institution. O’Hanlon spoke out in favor of continued " containment " of
Saddam Hussein in February 2001, but came out in support of Bush’s Iraq
policy after the president addressed the United Nations on September 12,
2002. Testifying before the House Armed Services Committee on October 2,
2002, O’Hanlon predicted between 1000 and 5000 American casualties in a war
with Iraq."

[PROGRESSIVE1]

111. First of all, "PNAC Will Marshall" should drop dead!

Second of all, Dean and Kennedy have a right to disagree with the administration.

Third, JK needs to ask Wes Clark about the proper way to respond to these critisisms.

[LandOLincoln]

120. Progressive 1, you are aware, aren't you, that Wes has been

speaking as John Kerry's official surrogate for weeks now?

And Ted Kennedy, Howard Dean, Bob Graham, John Edwards et al. have been speaking out as Kerry's unofficial surrogates as well? (The Kerry campaign is booking all of these men into every radio and television talk show they can.)

[onecitizen]

126. Those DLCers are at it again...........

they just NEVER learn. I'm thinking Nader doesn't look so bad after reading this. We need to get rid of the DLC!

"Oh don't say anything about Iraq. bush might get mad at us boohoohoohoo" shheeeeesshshhh

[KoKo]

135. We should have learned from the Repugs. They never attack their own.

For the DLC and Will Marshall or whomever to say that Kennedy and Dean should "silence themselves" because it will reflect on Kerry is BS!

If Kerry feels that way let him come out himself and say it, not do it through a "sneak attack" using surrogates like this.

And BTW, Dennis Kucinich feels the same way as Dean and Kennedy and said so on CNN this evening. Dennis is Officially running against Kerry, but ignored by the DLC/DNC.

[madfloridian]

139. Saying they don't have to "clear their words" started the controversy.

Even mentioning it, started something. Why it should have been mentioned is a puzzle.

[LandOLincoln]

140. You think maybe Beers was REBUTTING

Daalder's and Marshall's statements?

Nah--obviously he had some dark and sinister design. :tinfoilhat:

[milkyway]

141. The wingnuts are in power because they don't silence their less centrist

voices. One of their idiots will come up with an idea, it bounces around the rightwing echo chamber for a while, gradually seeps into the mainstream, and ends up becoming conventional wisdom for most Americans. They almost impeached the President of the United States with this kind of bullshit!

Yet anytime a Dem says anything slightly controversial the DLCers rush to quiet them, even if they are stating an obvious truth. Even in the face of the most criminal and incompetent administration in U.S. history, they don't want to make waves. If these people have their way, they'll lose another election and we'll get four more years of bush.

[Justitia]

142. Marshall & the DLC are what will hurt Kerry, not Kennedy or Dean

"he could be hurt by the comments of others"

True, Will. Specifically - YOU!
And the other Neocon/Theocon wannabes that whisper in his ear.

This coven is toxic to Kerry's campaign.

Caveat Emptor, Sen Kerry.