Forgive her Democrats, for she knows not what she has done

[IsItJustMe]

The last few days, I have done some soul searching and have Hillary to thank for that. I think the bottom line is this.

Hillary has come out of an environment where back room deals are more important open democracy, where perception is more important than substance, where competition is more important than cooperation, where dirty tricks miss-direction, and obfuscation are the rules of the game rather than the exception, and where it is more important to win than how you won in the first place. She can’t help it. This is where she comes from.

Some people love this methodology of winning at all costs. They excuse it and say, ‘That’s politics’. I don’t agree with that and is one of the major reasons that I have a strong aversion to Bush and what he has done over the past 7 years. For me to join this type of mind set, I might as well be a Republican. I know the Democratic Party as a whole isn’t perfect, but even now, it’s still a sight better than the Republicans. I fear that if Hillary wins, that last vestige of hope will be gone. But if that is the fate of our party, let it be.

[Lerkfish]

1. "let it be"?

mmmm wtf?

[Fran Kubelik]

3. not a Beatles fan?

;)

[Lerkfish]

15. I"m a HUGE beatles fan, just trying to understand your meaning here

are you saying that we should let Rome burn while our guitars gently weep?

screw that! I'm fighting for democracy and democrats.

[IsItJustMe]

22. No, not saying that, and at first appearance, given the mind set of our culture, I can see why

people would think that. We have all types of wars in this country. Wars on poverty, War on drugs, and War in Iraq. It seems that when we are strongly against something, we get more of it.

Rather than being against Hillary, we should be for honest straight forward politicians. We should be for open democracy. We should be for dignity and character.

We are strengthen when we are for something, we are weakened when we are against something.

[Lerkfish]

24. ok, thanks for the explanation

wasn't really tracking you before.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

2. Is this Sen. Obama's new talking point?

Hosana, Hey sana, Sana, sanaho, Sana Hey sana hosana.

[Demeter]

4. She Knows--She Just Doesn't Care

We are the "little people", and not to be reckoned with--just diddled.

[IsItJustMe]

46. We have to get to a better place than just hating on Hillary. I understand where everbody is coming

from on this but we have to move beyond it. Rather than being against Hillary, we need to be for people who do not follow the same road as she does.

In other words, focus on what we are for, rather than who we are against. I do believe that this is how all true progress is made.

[Medusa]

5. She knows exactly what she's doing

and that's what really disgusts me.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

21. Yes she does - destroying the Democratic Party. I'm disgusted too.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[flor de jasmim]

7. "Give me liberty..." or give me--whatever

But I think I know what you're trying to say--that having seen the light at the end of the tunnel, you will feel a greater degree of hopelessness. Is that right?

[Sal Minella]

13. I strongly recommend that you read the post to divine what the OP is saying.

The language is very clear and the ideas are expressed in unambiguous terms.

[IsItJustMe]

16. Accept the reality of the situation and then move forward. Only by accepting it first can you

effectively move forward.

[Benhurst]

8. ...

And the Chicago political environment? Touchie feelie political rhetoric does little to counteract the harsh realities of generation upon generation of crimes, corruption and insider deals. What floats to the top is better not examined too closely.

I fear we are screwed either way. It's down to different facades hiding similar realities. Tweedledee vs. Tweedledum in a political fight to the death.

[ginnyinWI]

10. I'm really glad I'm not that cynical. Sheesh. nt

[IsItJustMe]

35. Maybe I don't express myself well. I am not trying to be cynical. The over all point of my post

is to get people to face the facts (let it be), move beyond their disgust with Hillary (forgiveness), and be strong in what they are for (straight forward politicians, how you win is as important as winning, etc...).

[Benhurst]

44. Yes, ignorance of our nation's history

tends to make one a Pollyanna. Sweet dreams.

[aquarius dawning]

9. I'm so sick of hearing Obama's supporters bitch and moan about how terrible Hillay is

It just increases my resolve to win this thing.

[GarbagemanLB]

11. She has no realistic way of closing the delegate gap. Her ONLY option is to have the SDs overturn

the pledged delegates. Do you really think it is healthy to have this contested nomination going into August?

[Benhurst]

17. Neither Clinton nor Obama is going to reach 2025 without super delegates

overturning the choice of elected delegates on the other side.

Super delegates will end up having to push one of the losers of the race to 2025 over the finish line to victory.

[GarbagemanLB]

19. There is a significant difference in having SDs vote AGAINST the pledged delegate majority vs.

SDs pushing the winner of the pledged delegates to victory.

[aquarius dawning]

26. I don't think so. Not when you consider that millions of votes for Hillary were not even counted

Like I told you previously, you like the rules when they favor you and then you want to change them when they don't. It doesn't work that way. Deal with it.

[GarbagemanLB]

27. and the SDs won't overturn the winner of the pledged delegates. Deal with it.

[aquarius dawning]

29. did your crystal ball tell you that?

[GarbagemanLB]

31. No, just every Democratic spokesperson I've heard. Anything less would destroy the Democratic party

in November.

[Benhurst]

36. If either candidate gets a majority, then the nomination is in the bag.

According to the rules, however, a plurality does not win the prize.

All our candidates accepted the rules, and, to my knowledge, none even objected or tried to have them changed.

Any candidate from Mike Gravel to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama who fails to reach 2025 is, according to the rules they all accepted, a loser.

Maybe a plurality should have been sufficient for victory. Unfortunately that is not the case under the rules-- and it's a bit late to be trying to change them.

I personally think there should have been provisions for a national runoff in cases where no one wins the necessary 2025 delegates. Many say a runoff would be too expensive; but I think a Superpower which can spend trillions of Dollars for an immoral and criminal invasion of a country which has done it no harm, should be able to fund runoffs similar to those held by many lesser nations. But there is no such provision in the rules all the candidates accepted.

Unfortunately, we are left with the system our candidates accepted. And neither of our two biggest losers has the moral high ground in this spat.

[Benhurst]

38. Neither Clinton nor Obama will have a majority of the delegates unless

one reaches 2025.

One may have a plurality, but UNDER THE AGREED RULES, that doesn't count for anything. The rules may be wrong, they may be stupid, but they are the rules all the candidates agreed upon.

According to the rules, a plurality does not win the prize.

All our candidates accepted the rules, and, to my knowledge, none even objected or tried to have them changed.

Any candidate from Mike Gravel to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama who fails to reach 2025 is, according to the rules they all accepted, a loser.

Maybe a plurality should have been sufficient for victory. Unfortunately that is not the case under the rules-- and it's a bit late to be trying to change them.

I personally think there should have been provisions for a national runoff in cases where no one wins the necessary 2025 delegates. Many say a runoff would be too expensive; but I think a Superpower which can spend trillions of Dollars for an immoral and criminal invasion of a country which has done it no harm, should be able to fund runoffs similar to those held by many lesser nations. But there is no such provision in the rules all the candidates accepted.

Unfortunately, we are left with the system our candidates accepted. And neither of our two biggest losers has the moral high ground in this spat

[aquarius dawning]

20. Neither candidate can win outright at this point and given the dynamics of this race,

I think a SD outcome is appropriate. These are our rules and this is our system. Ya'll seem to like the rules when they serve Obama but if there's a chance that our rules may favor Hillary, all of a sudden they're "undemocratic" or worse. Fuck that. You've already disenfranchised millions of people who voted for Hillary in Florida and Michigan and now you want to deny her superdelegates. I for one am starting to get seriously pissed off you guys and, frankly, I no longer care about the consequences.

[GarbagemanLB]

23. What about the voters in Michigan and Florida who didn't vote because they thought it didn't matter?

Are they not disenfranchised? Do you support a re-do? I think that is the only fair way to resolve the issue of MI and FL.

[aquarius dawning]

28. A.) Nobody told BO to take his name off the MI ballot.

We're not going to be punished for his bad judgement. B.) Florida had record turnout. Don't even try to say that people stayed home because they thought their vote wouldn't count. Furthermore, anybody who did stay home showed bad judgement as well. He was on the ballot in Florida and all things were equal. Hillary won. End of fucking story.

[GarbagemanLB]

30. The delegates will not be seated as is, sorry. It is either a re-do, or some other agreement.

You cry about 'disenfranchisement' then shrug off people who stayed home for a VALID REASON: they were told Florida's votes wouldn't count. And the record turnout? You DO know that there were some big legislative issues on the ballot besides the primary, right?

[aquarius dawning]

34. there are no do-overs in a democracy. it is completely incompattible withthe principles of Democracy

And regardless of whatever you want to say about the reason that Florida had record voter turnout, the facts remain: Florida had record voter turnout; all things were equal; Hillary won by wide margins.

[Benhurst]

40. We recently had one major do-over.

The United States Supreme court did a do-over on December 12, 2000, which led to the destruction of the Republic and the mess we find ourselves in today.

[rucky]

12. Nail, meet hammer...

Well said. K&R.

[shraby]

14. Problem is, she DOES know what she has done

and will continue doing it with gusto.

[Not the Only One]

18. baloney

Hillary has come out of an environment where back room deals are more important open democracy, where perception is more important than substance, where competition is more important than cooperation, where dirty tricks miss-direction, and obfuscation are the rules of the game rather than the exception, and where it is more important to win than how you won in the first place. She can’t help it. This is where she comes from.

Hillary does the things she does because she knows they will help her beat Obama at any costs, and she knows very well that those tactics are reprehensible. She just doesn't care-- anymore than Bush/Cheney know the things they do are wrong for America, but do them anyway. She knows very well "what she has done." She needs to be held accountable.

[joeybee12]

25. Get a grip...

...BO calling Hilary divisive way back in early February certainly was a new way of politics...he is a dirty Chicago pol, so give me a freakin' break.

[Avalux]

32. I can't forgive her. She knows exactly what she's doing and it's very ugly.

The "ends justify the means" mentality is something that I can't support.

[IsItJustMe]

39. On that we can agree. Some people call it prinicple, dignity, honesty, or whatever.

I like to think of it as just who I am and where I come from. Sure, I screw up alot, but at least I am honest with myself enough to know that.

[Upton]

33. Some things are unforgivable

Hillary is alienating millions of Democrats. What is wrong with her?

[SammyWinstonJack]

42. So is Obama. What is wrong with him?

[IsItJustMe]

43. Yes she is. But rather than hate of Hillary, which I have done my fair share the last couple of

days, lets focus on politicians who truly reflect the Democratic party.

Rather than hate on Hillary, lets focus on politicians who have strong character and are guiding by principles.

My argument is this, only by doing that will we transcend this bucket of slime that we find ourselves in and move forward to a much better place as individuals and as a party as a whole.

[workinclasszero]

37. Hillary knows what she's doing and so does Karl Rove, shes using his playbook after all (nt)

[MNDemNY]

41. Obama=Christ? ...Jeezus f'n christ.

[IsItJustMe]

45. No one has a corner on forgiveness, The concept exists in every culture that ever was.

On edit: would you rather me quote from some other person of knowledge or wisdom. Don't concern yourself with the messenger, listen to the message.

[Voice for Peace]

47. For one's own sake, compassion & understanding is a good idea. However

to allow her tactics & choices to be acceptable is not a good idea.

One can confront and challenge, using the truth, without hating.

[IsItJustMe]

50. Agreed: The way to get rid of darness is to shine the light on it. That is what we must do.

[Voice for Peace]

51. I think darness is ok, but the darkness needs to go.

[1776Forever]

48. Oh she knows. Whatever you say about Hillary she knows what & where she is at all times!

Michael Lutin:

Hillary's Horoscope: Her Comeback Was in the Stars
Jan. 9, 08

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-lutin/hillarys-horoscope-her-_b_80790.html

(snip)

It should come as no surprise that Hillary Clinton came out swinging after her defeat in Iowa. After all, it was in the stars: she is a Scorpio and Scorpio rules the instinct for survival. Scorpio also rules cockroaches. Did you ever try to spray or drown them? They can hold their breath and play dead until you walk out of the kitchen and turn out the light. Then they scurry away, laughing. Scorpios are loved and hated at the same time. Those who hate Hillary still respect her sheer chutzpah, and those who love her have to put up with the fact that she can be a nightmare to live with, especially if she gets a whiff of betrayal.

(snip)

Is she on a power trip? Be real. Why else would she subject herself to the pit bull attacks waiting in the political arena? Power, yes, but also this: When situations are dire, enterprises failing, businesses stalling, empires falling and extinction is right around the corner, Scorpios get turned on. Only they can walk right down into the Valley of the Lepers with bagels and cream cheese and think nothing of it. Grandiose or not, Hillary believes she can turn the current mess around.

.............

My question is "At what cost?" That is yet to be seen!

:hide:

[Utopian Leftist]

49. Rules?

Like I told you previously, you like the rules when they favor you and then you want to change them when they don't. It doesn't work that way. Deal with it.

You want rules now? How about this for a rule: the states that CHOSE to disobey the rules and hold their elections early WERE WARNED EXACTLY WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF BREAKING THE RULES WOULD BE! And they chose to break them anyway and hold their elections too early. If the voters in Michigan and Florida have a problem with this election, then THEY CAN BLAME THEIR LOCAL ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DECIDED TO BREAK THE RULES!

End of story! Sheesh, the unmitigated gall of Clinton supporters never ceases to amaze. YOU DON'T CHANGE THE RULES AFTER THE FUCKING GAME BEGINS! Hillary agreed to those rules before the campaign began and now only wants to change them because she is desperate.