The condition for a re-vote in FL and MI should be the resignation of the state party leaders.

[TheWraith]

They're complaining because they broke the rules, they were TOLD they were breaking the rules, told they would be denied delegates if they went ahead, and they went ahead anyway. They tried to amp up their own importance in the national process at the expense of their voters.

The condition for a re-vote in MI and FL should be the resignation of the leadership in each state party. We should have full participation, but we also need to send a clear message that trying to scam the system will not be tolerated.

[redqueen]

1. If the DNC has to pay for it... then that seems fair to me.

They've cost us time, money and credibility with this horsepucky.

[BOSSHOG]

4. Dean says the state's must pay

The Governor of Florida says the party has to pay for it. Doubtful it will happen. Unless the right wing noise machine sees the opportunity for more dividing and conquering and talks the RNC into picking up the tab.

[redqueen]

7. I can see there being some behind-the-scenes negotiations going on...

depends on how important the issue of not disenfranchising their own voters is to these clowns.

[wileedog]

5. The DNC can't pay for it

That could be $40-50 million between the two states. That is a ton of money that could be directed at McCain to hold two primaries in an election that is all but decided.

Someone tell me again how Hillary holding on by her fingernails and scorching every last piece of earth on her way down is 'good for the party'

[redqueen]

14. It's so frustrating and shameful that a few arrogant people

have created this problem, and now they expect for the rules to be ignored, and who knows how many voters disenfranchised, to pay for for their idiocy.

[flyarm]

18. well Fl State won't pay for it..all day our news has said cost $18-25 million bucks

and the state is in cardiac arrest ..as Nelson has said..he said state Legislators said no way...won't happen that Fla state will pay for it.

hell the counties just had a run on the state Sub-prime accounts because they couldn't pay county employees ..all over Fla..

who is kidding who here...

we are leading the nation or possibly tie now with Calif on forclosures..people all over the state are losing their homes..and you behind your computer think the taxpayers are going to pay for another election..after they already paid for one..and 1/2 the state is republican???????/

what are you smoking?????????

what make any of you think the Republicans in this swing state are going to bail out the dems with Taxpayer money?????????????

Money the state doesn't have...

do any of you think??????????

this was a dem party fuck up..plain and simple..

Dean is Enemy #1 in Fla right now..rightly or wrongly..but he better damn well stop worrying about supporting one candidate and fix the damn thing before 99 % of floridians cross over the the dark side!

because they are pissed here!!

remember we have the largest block of Vets in the nation.. who fought for their vote to count!!

and we have a McCain running for pres..against a guy who lost by 400,000 votes here in Fla...in a *closed* democratic primary...and as of last week was 16% points behind McCain in Florida...yes he lost by almost 1/2 a million votes to dems..and dems only..

wake the hell up Americans.

Dean better make a deal and think of the party instead of his candidate..or he will lose Florida for many many years in the future.

fly

[HooptieWagon]

24. OK, I largely agree

The state doesn't have the money for another primary. DNC has offered to pay for a caucus, but FDP refuses (most vocal has been Sen Nelson - big time DLCer, BTW) Yes, Dean is taking some heat here b/c the Clinton/DLC crowd is pointing the finger at him in the media, even though they are the ones who are to blame. That's why the work madfloridian has done is so important - making sure the Truth doesn't get lost among all the bullshit being flung.

[Capn Sunshine]

31. THE HELL WE CAN'T

we could raise the money online between the two campaigns.

In about a month.

But I agree that this is only necessary because of Hillary's refusal to see the writing on the wall

[TheWraith]

32. Nor should they.

That amount of money translates to how many ads? How many elections? Should we let Florida and Michigan have their say at the expense of picking up a couple of Senate seats?

I think Dean's response is appropriate: One million per state. That's enough money to pay for a caucus, or they can use it towards a primary. It's not the national party's fault if the state leadership screwed up their first opportunity.

[HooptieWagon]

9. Why?

Why should the DNC have to pay for enforcing the rules that everyone agreed to? Especially since they offered to help by contributing a million towrds a revote, or by paying for a caucus. Sounds like Dean and the DNC are going out of their way to help Florida correct the problem... but the problem is Florida Dem Party refuses to abide by the rules, and is intent on generating a confrontation with Dean.

[redqueen]

13. I don't think they should!

I think the stupid clowns who forced this situation on the voters of Florida should pay for it. Let them take out personal loans if they have to, since they made this mess.

[HooptieWagon]

17. I'm not sure of your position

The DNC had rules in place that everyone agreed upon. FL and MI decided to break the rules. DNC is within their rights to enforce their rules. Blame goes to those who decided to break the rules - namely, the FL and MI legislatures.

[redqueen]

My position is I'm with Dean on this one.

They knew the rules, and the consequences, and didn't care.

I only feel for the disenfranchised voters. It's only for them that I hope there's some kind of do-over.

[HooptieWagon]

27. OK, you had me confused

b/c in an earlier post you seemed to support making the DNC pay for a revote, even though they aren't the ones who broke the rules.

I do agree with the OP in the sense that the responsible parties (FDP and Fl Leg Dems) should be held accountable in some manner.

[redqueen]

28. Sorry... no, I was only saying that if the DNC did end up paying...

that heads should absolutely roll for this mess.

It makes me sick, thinking about the way these DLC assholes have screwed things up this year.

[flyarm]

35. i blame both..DNC/DEAN and DLC..Dean ignored & the DNC ignored the voting machine problems here in

Fla..they knew there was a problem and those of us who worked our asses off to correct the problems were told for years..sit down and shut up..the DNC didn't want to know anything about the problems..and that unfortunately is the facts.

they ingored the problems with the DRE machines when our voted was stolen in 2002 by these machines..and then in 2004 again.,,they ignored the problems we were begging for help with before the 2004 election..again..told us to sit in the corner and shut up..

then again..we paid ourselves for Audits,..that couldn't be done on our machines..we paid out of our own citizens pockets for tests on the machines..we filmed them even..again..the DNC told us..go to the corner and shut up..

i blame this on the entire national DNC..and including the state DNC

there is no one not to blame.

there are no innocents...

But Dean knew what this bills main points were about..and they were about throwing the paperless /non auditable/Dre machines out of the state...and getting Voter Verified Paper Ballots...but it doesn't seem the dem party gives too much of a rats ass about our votes..because we were punished because that is what we the people were fighting for in the bill this primary change was tagged onto.

someone some where is playing with our damn elections..and with the damn rules..but it is we the people who fought for our votes to be counted..and now we are fucked for it by the dem party.

so someone better ficking figure this crap out before we lose a boat load of a very important Democratic voting block!

and stop with the idealistic bullshit.

fly

[HooptieWagon]

37. Yes, the DREs were a concern

The legislature easily could have separated the bill into two, though - one bill replacing the DREs, and one moving the primary up. The reason they combined them was to provide political cover for breaking the rules in scheduling the primary.

[redqueen]

38. I already asked for an explanation of your rant once.

How did the VVPB bill demand that the state move it's primary up?

Stop with the not backing your points up bullshit, how's that?

[flyarm]

42. well go read the posts i answered that question..it was tagged onto the bill

that required VVPB..

and stop being so nasty!


do you have google? look it up yourself..i helped pay for some of the work that was done to get VVPB...and i helped train some people who worked on it with Andy Stephenson..and i did a couple years of public speaking around the state trying to make people aware of the problems with the DRE machines.......you go look it up yourself...i owe you nothing.

if you weren't so nasty..i might tell you where to look..but go look for it yourself.

i don't respond so well to nasty.
fly

[redqueen]

43. I'm nasty?

"and stop with the idealistic bullshit."

I'll seek answers elsewhere. This conversation ain't worth it.

[truebrit71]

22. Um, no the States parties did that...the DNC is not at fault here..

...they shouldn't have to pay for do-over that was 100% avoidable if the States had simply played by the rules...

[redqueen]

25. I agree they shouldn't have to...

I'm just saying that if they did, I'd definitely think that heads should roll for it.

[BOSSHOG]

2. Agreed, but this might result

in a much needed chit chat about the primary machination. Why is New Hampshire and Iowa always first? Because they want to be? Fuck that.

[HooptieWagon]

3. Well, maybe resignation is going too far

Since they'll have to face the voters eventually anyway. However, the FL superdelegates should not be seated, since they by and large are among the crowd that perpetrated this mess.

[seabeyond]

10. every hillary voter i have talked to refuse to blame them. it is dean and obama that did this

to florida.....

pathetic.

first they have assign proper ownership.

my guess is hillary people arent fond of dean ergo, they are with florida and the slap upside deans head, so they cant place ownership of the mess where it belongs.

[HooptieWagon]

16. Yes, the feud between Dean and Clintons/DLC goes way back

And the Clinton supporters blindly accept her statements as "fact". Remarkably similar to Bush's base, IMO.

[Malikshah]

12. How will the face the voters? Most of the asswipes here in FL

are not the Beltway Bleaters.

They're the local good ole boys and girls who toady up to the Repubs.

[HooptieWagon]

19. The Dem FL legislators obviously will have to face the voters

So will Sen Nelson. State Party Chair Karen Thurman is also culpable, but it will take dynamite to get her out - DLCers control State Party.

[flyarm]

26. Look all the blame is being laid at the Feet of Dean..period. eom

[HooptieWagon]

30. yes, Dean is being blamed by the guilty ones.

[cascadiance]

40. It seems that if the DNC is being asked to foot the bill, then yes...

... they the DNC should have the suthority to ask that they be fired. Because if the DNC is in effect being made responsible for the mess that happened, and therefore the state officials actions that lead to this mess, then as a part of that responsibility, they should be able to ask that those officials be fired as a condition for the bill (or at least part of the bill being paid by the DNC).

If those officials don't want to be fired, then they should find a way to fund the fix to their own mess, and if it costs the state party and its members more money, then that's one more thing they will have to answer to those state members for. The rest of the country shouldn't have to pay for their mistakes if we don't have any say as to who runs their party's business.

[yourguide]

6. HELL YES!

[katmondoo]

8. Yes and I live in Florida so it is yes,yes,yes

[flyarm]

11. i would agree to that in a heart beat!! from Fla here..eom

[fadedrose]

15. Those responsible Elected Officials should pay out of their pockets...

They're all pretty wealthy for a poor state like Michigan. Let their wealth do us some good.

[seabeyond]

20. something. these fools purposely played with americans vote. and that is just fucked. n/t

[flyarm]

23. my vote goes to firing both heads of the State party's for malpractice...

but some here in Fla tried that and didn't get to far..in fact ..they pretty much got.. all but Booed out of the state convention.

fly

[seabeyond]

33. what is that. i dont get it. so often lately peoples votes messed with and people say o.k.

it is foriegn to me. i am sorry flyarm. i cant agree just handing it to hillary but i hate what happened to the people in these two states. goes against everything i am

[HooptieWagon]

34. You're right about that

FDP has a tight reign on things - a bunch of self-serving scratch each other backs, power-hungry thugs. They are only interested in their own power - not growing the party.

[flyarm]

41. I'll tell ya what ..I have come close to leaving the dem party down here..

but i was an elected delegate in 2004..and too many older Dems..in our womens club and the biggest Jewish club depend on me..they think i am like their daughters..that aren't here with them..i couldn't abandon them and the dem party has been their life for a very long time..understand..going to the dem clubs here is alot of the seniors social life..

My husban d and i have put up the money for tests on our voting machines..i have been part of tests on the voting machines..with the media and camera's there..the dem party ignored our problems..until 18,000 votes dissapeared in 2006...do you honestly think we weren't down here screaming about it well before that?? we were screaming since our votes got stolen in 2000..and 2002, and 2004..and we were ignored

remember we had Jeb..and the most crooked state in the country..

My husband put up money for audits in 2004 and in 2006..and ya know what..all we could prove was ..no audits were possible of the DRE machines.

cost $2,000. bucks for that answer each time.

and many of our citizens with very limited income put money up to try to get their votes to count..

we had people sitting all nights with phones hiding in cars by the warehouses watching people go in and out of the warehouses the voting machines were in..
we had citizens jumping into dumpsters..

and you know what we got from the National and State DNC..shut up and go away.

i hold all of them accountable.

all of them


I paid for a couple audits but i had Andy Stephenson help me train people in my area way before the 2004 election.. of what and how to look for the stealing of our votes...and those people were at the audits they worked their asses off for our votes..all on their own time....and ya know what.no one from the DNC showed up..no one.

I faked being a reporter one time and got into a presser by our SOE and got the book with problems and rule changes of one of our elections.. ..when no one from the Dem party was allowed in..i have risked a shit load doing what i have done..many times on the sly..to try to protect our votes.

so please save it when you sit on your computer and think you know why this happened..you do not.

this happened because the Democractic party ignored a problem here, for way to long, of our citizens votes being stolen..and the people took it into their own hands..and our citizens fought back.

It took seeing 18,000 votes dissapear..and no one willing to fight for those votes by the national democratic party..for the people to say..we are mad as hell, and we are not going to take it anymore.

There was alot of fin-agling and chicken shit crap that went on, on both sides.. both parties..but the initial bill was to get the people of Florida ..Voter Verified Paper Ballots and to get rid of DRE's in the entire state.

instead of the powers that be In the Democratic party in Washington , cheering that feat, in a state that dems have had little ..to no power..they punished us..

well sorry..i blame Dean just as much as i blame the DLC..they both put their ego's ahead of what was best for the voters..and the citizens of my state.

Yes, the citizens ...many of who fought for their vote to count..and that is not said lightly, as we have the biggest voting block in the nation of vets who fought for that vote.

enough of the bullshit..enough with party fucking egos..they are destroying the democracy that so many in my state of Florida fought for, worked for.. their entire life..and fought for many of us ..to vote today..

i belong to the oldest womens club in the nation here in Florida..and you know when the club was started over 67 years ago..women could not vote.

and the board of directors of the womens democratic club..were men.

we had our 65th anniversary a couple years ago..we have a woman over 100 yrs old..and several in their 90's who helped build the democratic party..shouldn't their vote count????????? When these women began the First Democratic women's club in the nation..they could not vote...it was many years before they could..they weren't even allowed to be on their own board..they had to have men sit in those positions..

I will not stop fighting for their votes to count..because they fought for me to have the right to vote.

and i was elected by many of them to be their delegate in 2004..and i will always feel the utmost respect and a responsibility to them for what they did for me and all my women friends, and family, and all the women of my generation and all the generations to come.

I will never take my vote or the vote of others for granted..to much sacrifice has been made by too many for those votes..by people we don't even know..and won't have the opportunity to thank..other than to fight for the votes of all.

We need the the damn party to get in a room ..put their damn ego's outside the room and the bullshit ideologies aside ..and they better think of the best thing for this country..snd for this party..not who they want or don't want as president.. and not come out until they have a fair solution to this..and let the people of this country decide..many of whom built the very party they serve under.

This should never have gotten here!

fly

[flyarm]

21. well the lady who is the FDP state chair ..i don't think has $25 million bucks for a re-vote....

be real..

fly

[redqueen]

29. Let her mortgage her home.

She and Nelson both can go around with their hats in their idiotic hands. It's their mess. Let them fund the cleanup.

[HooptieWagon]

36. State Party Chair is Karen Thurman

She's also a lobbyist in Tallahassee - represents several republican favoring businesses and industries to the rep dominated legislature. She knows what side her bread is buttered on.

edit to add: She is generally regarded as a puppet to Sen Nelson, who is the main string-puller in State dem Party.

[chill_wind]

39. Let the State Heads roll. They perp'd it. They must answer for- and reap it. nt