Caucus Drives Latest Ruckus: Clinton Campaign Says System Is Undemocratic

[DeepModem Mom]

WSJ: March 6, 2008
Caucus Drives Latest Ruckus: Clinton Campaign Says System Is Undemocratic; Obama Camp Disagrees
By JUNE KRONHOLZ, BEN CASSELMAN and T.W. FARNAM
March 6, 2008; Page A7

Presidential nominating caucuses are older, cheaper and more citizen-driven than primaries. But Sen. Hillary Clinton is charging that they also are less fair, after her loss to Sen. Barack Obama Tuesday in the Texas caucuses despite winning the state's primary earlier in the day. The Clinton complaints against the Obama campaign almost assure that the caucus system will be part of the fight between the two Democrats before the August nominating convention -- and just as surely will become part of a Democratic Party review of the nominating system after the November elections.

Among other things, the Clinton campaign is charging that Obama supporters edged out Clinton supporters in the Texas caucuses by arriving early and either locking the doors or taking charge of the packets explaining how the caucuses were to proceed....

***

Caucuses work to the advantage of a campaign that can turn out voters for a designated hour or two, usually on a weekday evening. A candidate's supporters meet at a central location, where only those who are present can cast ballots. Supporters divide into groups according to candidate. That system has benefited Sen. Obama, whose strongest support is among young voters, students and white-collar workers who have flexibility at work and aren't intimidated by the face-to-face nature of caucus politics. Clinton supporters, on the other hand, are generally older, less educated and working class, with less control over their work schedules -- a practical problem that Sen. Clinton has spoken of in recent rallies.

The rules can be confusing. In Dallas Tuesday evening, Clinton supporter Irene Alexander talked to Obama headquarters after her precinct voted 95% for Sen. Obama. "I'm trying to determine if Clinton gets any delegates out of this precinct," she said as other volunteers consulted the party rulebook. "I'm a schoolteacher. I don't know how I got up here, involved in all of this." Other Clinton supporters complained of boos and laughter when they identified themselves at caucuses in precincts where Sen. Obama is popular, or said the system discouraged elderly voters by requiring them to stand in long lines to state their preferences.

Sen. Clinton is likely to use those claims with Democratic superdelegates, whose shift to Sen. Obama before the Texas and Ohio votes had been seen as dooming her hopes of winning the nomination....By arguing that she has won in the big primary states -- California, Ohio, Texas and her homestate of New York among them -- Sen. Clinton could claim that she is better able to beat Arizona Sen. John McCain, the Republican nominee, than could Sen. Obama. In her victory speech in Ohio Tuesday night, Sen. Clinton pointedly reminded Democrats that the party needs an Ohio win in November, a key swing state, if it hopes to take the White House.

Party leaders have long defended the caucus system by saying it relies on the candidates' organizational skills and grass-roots support, both of which become vital in the November elections. But the national party often has little control over the states' nominating processes and little interest in getting involved in changing them....

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120477008315515593.html

[billbuckhead]

1. Caucuses reek of Castro's Cuba

What ever happened to voting in secret?

[NorthernSpy]

6. yeah, Castro lets citizens hold caucuses...

Teh stupid... Oh it BURNSSSSS!!111!!!!1!`


:rofl:

[cali]

9. don't be utterly ridiculous. There is nothing inherently undemocratic

about caucuses. Far from it. Every fucking year I got to town meeting, and *gasp* vote by aye or nay. Vermont's Town Meetings are held up throughout the world as an exercise in pure democracy. Every year contingents of people from other countries come to Vermont to witness our town meetings. This year groups from Iraq and Bosnia came. And caucuses used to be the standard by which nominees were chosen. Furthermore, in parliamentary systems, there is no choosing of a leader by the public at large. Are you actually claiming that no parliamentary system is a democracy.

You guys have got to quit the whiny poopy baby act.

[Lucinda]

14. You think a fixed window of time that prohibits some from voting is democratic?

[Justitia]

18. You are clueless as to how caucuses work in my state. -eom

[Lucinda]

23. So those people who can't caucus can still be counted?

Are they allowed to vote absentee? And if so, are those figured into the state results?

[Justitia]

27. Yup - absolutely. We have early voting for a full 10 days.

The ballot voting counts for 2/3 of your individual vote and you have 10 full days to do it, 12 hrs per day most days, always includes a weekend, Saturday AND Sunday.

The caucus gives you an additional 1/3 of a vote, if you choose to participate.

[Lucinda]

30. So the votes of people who can't go to the caucus don't count the same as those who do both?

I think its a step in the right direction, but still unfair.

[Justitia]

38. No, 2/3 of all delegates come from ballot, 1/3 from caucus. It's a percentage of the same vote.

And the delegate allocation is based on how many Democrats showed up to vote in the previous Democratic governors race.

The system is very rewarding for those Democrats who consistently vote for Democrats.

You MUST have voted in the Democratic primary to participate, so no last minute cross party shenanigans.

The caucus is always held in the evenings, after every last Democrat has voted (no matter what time the polls close, we WAIT), and everyone who wants to participate is included - not just Dem party officials.

It was the most raw display of Democracy I have seen in this state and it was incredibly redeeming for those of us who genuinely want to advance the Democratic Party in TX.

[Lucinda]

42. Isn't the 1/3 vote still biased against those who cannot caucus?

I love the idea of a caucus very much, I just think there should be equal representation for EACH voter in the delegate selections.

[Justitia]

51. No, it's not "biased", the 1/3 is representative of Democratic activism.

It's not an "either / or" scenario. Everyone who wants to vote in our primary can vote - for weeks.

It's not ballot "or" caucus, it's both, but weighted more heavily toward ballot.

Democratic activism is rewarded by how many Democrats actually voted in an off-year gubernatorial race.

Like me, I vote for Democrats whenever I can, even if it's for dogcatcher. And I've voted for some stinky Democrats even when I had no other choice. As a reward for my Democratic loyalty, my precinct had more delegates than the Republican precincts where no Democrats show up.

You cannot judge our system without participating in it first hand.
Our system rewards faithful Democrats.

[Lucinda]

53. And doesn't reward those who have to work or are not physically able to caucus.

Guess we're just going to have to disagree about this. :)

[democrat_nanny]

43. Maybe in Texas but not in all states...

Not in mine. If you can't be there at 6:30 PM on a Tuesday in February then you're out of luck.

[Lucinda]

49. I like the idea of a caucus a lot, but each person should have the same say

in computing delegates. Some provsions should be made for those who can't caucus.

[eridani]

58. Maine has absentee caucusing for any reason whatsoever

I'm advocating that for WA state in the future. Currently we allow absentee only for military, disability and religious reasons.

[cali]

21. I think caucuses are very democratic

but then as a Vermonter I'm used to direct, participatory democracy.

[Lucinda]

28. I LOVE the idea of a caucus. It's direct and raw and very romantic, but

if there is no way for those unable to caucus to be part of delegate selection, then I think it's very undemocratic process. If there was a combination of caucusing combined with early/absentee voting which counted for delegate selection, then I think the process would be fair.

[Window]

52. They're only undemocratic because Hilly loses them.

They've been doing this for years, but all of a sudden it's undemocratic because Hilly says so. Please.

[Inuca]

15. Really?

I voted in a communist country once upon a time, the voting was secret, the problem was that there was only one choice to vote for! Not a caucus, trust me.

[tabatha]

2. Open primaries

where Republicans can vote for Democrats for nefarious reasons, are undemocratic too.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

3. All this familiarity with politics, and now she complains?

[WolverineDG]

5. She loved it in 1992

when the caucuses were used to score a win for Bill. The only thing different this time is she's losing.

dg

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

7. It's funny how it's only undemocratic when you lose. Gimme a break!

[WolverineDG]

4. Oh yeah

because running the conventions BY THE RULES is UNFAIR! :eyes:

I've got loads of stories from Clintonland where their behavior was much worse. I haven't heard anything about doors being locked by anyone except the election judges.

dg

[Vincardog]

35. I was the election judge. We locked the doors at 7:00 to keep the Caucasus goers out until the

last eligible voter had voted. When that time approached I went to the door and asked for the Precinct captains to come to the front of the line to get their packets. Very few came forward. After the last voter had voted I opened the doors and the several hundred Caucasus goers rushed in and began shouting their preferences for candidates.

Some of the precincts had smooth running events some did not. The ones that did not seemed to be to be run by people pushing their preference for their candidate. The ones that ran smoothly seemed to me to be run by people who took the time to read and understand the rules and be more interested in having a successful event rather than working to generate a particular outcome.

After the start no one locked the door until the caucus was over for everyone.

[WolverineDG]

55. Our election judge kept us out until after the last person voted

She wouldn't even let me in at 7 to get the packet. "Nothing starts until I say so." :eyes:

At another site, they locked everyone out, even 45 minutes after the last voter left because they were still "working." The Hillary crowd, pumped up by the machine to "vote twice," became unruly. Cops were called, cameras were there, it was a madhouse.

My convention ran rather smoothly because I insisted that the rules be followed. It became evident beforehand, however, that they were not intending to follow the rules at my precinct. See my journal for more.

dg

[ClayZ]

8. It looked like democracy to me!

It sounded like democracy!

It smelled like democracy!




I loved my first caucus!



That was here in Washington State several weeks ago.

K and R

[MagickMuffin]

10. She didn't have a problem with the Texas caucus in 92/96 when her husband ran

:cry:Hillary:cry:

For her to claim that the states she has won, that somehow those voters wouldn't vote for Obama in the GE, is Bullshit.

[snooper2]

11. So, the caucus are not democratic because some people got heckled

and had to wait in line

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[anigbrowl]

12. Desperation is a stinky cologne

ALL the candidates know about the caucus system going into the race. It's been around for a long time and is a well-established tradition in American politics. The whole point of the caucus system is to allow a candidate to get into the public eye even if they don't have vast $$$ for signs and TV ads etc.

That's why candidates spend so much time in Iowa before their caucus - it's not just the fact that it's first, but the fact that they can only win by getting their supporters to make the case for them at caucuses. In both parties, unless there is an incumbent there may be as many as 10 candidates bidding for the nomination. A primary is a terrible system for getting a result from a alrge field like this unless you use some sort of proportional representation like ranked-choice voting. A causus works far better because it is an incremental rather than a one-time process.

If you hate caucuses, you must really hate the democratic convention because that's basically just a giant-sized caucus.

[NorthernSpy]

13. her own training materials call for excluding Obama supporters from serving as caucus officials...

The Dallas Morning News published her call to her supporters to "get control of the sign in sheets" and keep "procedural control" of the caucuses.


She was perfectly willing to play the game, and in a pretty damn hardcore fashion, to say the very least. She just lost, that's all.


And now she's carping about it. Big surprise there.

[theboss]

16. The Clintons essentially ran the DNC for 12 years

Eight years in the White House plus four more years with their puppet McAuliffe in charge.

Why weren't these problems addressed then?

[democrat_nanny]

45. States Rights....

Individual states are allowed to choose how they conduct the presidential nominating process. The DNC has no control over this.

[eridani]

59. Indeed. Why weren't caucuses undemocratic in 1992 and 1996?

[pampango]

17. At least the "voters are sheeple" meme will die an overdue death now. It is inspiring

to read how the wisdom of the average primary voter is superior to that of the political activists who exert more influence in caucuses.

For many years I have been reading too many posts at DU about how voters are sheeple, easily led and fooled by politicians and PR strategists, while many much wiser activists can cut right through the same lies and distortions.

Whether one prefers caucuses, closed primaries, open primaries, some combination or that candidates just deal with system the way it was set up before the nomination process began, at least the wisdom of the common voter seems to be ascendant here now. That is a good thing.

[JackORoses]

19. Hillary's supporters just aren't as dedicated, that's all.

Sure she can draw in droves on name recognition and win a Primary,
but those same people just don't care enough to make it to a Caucus.

Don't give me the work schedule Hillarite bullshit.
The Texas Caucuses started at 7pm.
If Hillary supporters had really supported her, they would have shown up.

It all comes down to the simple fact that Obama's Grassroots support is stronger than any seen in Politics for years.

[Justitia]

20. When Clinton loses, she threatens to sue state Dem parties & throws them under the bus.

The Clinton Machine is poison to our party.

[Cha]

22. Whine hilary Whine...'cause that's all your

little campaign has left..the Whine, the fuckin' scarey cheez, and your incessent blubbering.

[MoonRiver]

24. It is becoming increasingly clear that BO is no friend to democracy.

:puke:

[blocker]

25. of course, she's losing

shut up hillary!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shadowknows69]

26. Then run for President of Paraguay or something Hillary

Rules is rules

[Avalux]

29. We've had the same rules in Texas since 1972. Why the outrage now?

It's so shallow it's not even funny - if the caucuses favored Clinton she'd be praising them instead.

[AtomicKitten]

32. Because the rules are biased and make Hillary sad.

:silly:

[paulk]

46. trite

look - the caucus system sucks, and not just in TX. It sucks everywhere for the reasons stated above. Caucuses exclude people. That's why the turnout is so low. They are inherently undemocratic. The states that have them need to change - that we're having such a close race now is why this is coming up - yes - but that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to select delegates. Hopefully by 2012 we can have some movement to toward primaries in all the states.

It doesn't always have to be about Hillary and Obama!

[AtomicKitten]

54. What is trite is her sniveling about the rules in the middle of the game just because she's losing.

Get that part straight.

[Justitia]

33. Because unlike when her husband won here in '92, she's losing. -eom

[mrreowwr_kittty]

31. Whereas anonymous voting into hack-able machines owned by RWers is the epitome of democracy.

Give me caucuses over that shit any day.

[AZBlue]

34. Bet I know what she'd be saying if she'd WON...

This is Presidential?

[Lucinda]

36. Voting should be made as easy as possible for everyone to participate. I have a hard time

understanding why anyone would support anything other than that.

[zulchzulu]

37. Why doesn't Hillaryworld like democracy?

[lmbradford]

39. yeah...welll.....

If she was so smart, why didn't she challenge it before the contest? After the race is lost is too late. SORRY! snark/

[MadBadger]

40. Of course they arent fair, but these rules have been in place for a long time, and she knew about it

[democrat_nanny]

41. The caucus process is undemocratic...

It disenfranchises everyone (at least in my state) who's not able to drive to their local high school, walk 3 blocks from the closest parking spot on a freezing cold night and spend 3 hours sorting through confusing regulations and mounds of paperwork. It's unfriendly to newcomers, the elderly, the disabled, people with small children, people who work in the evening, et. al.

[zulchzulu]

50. The caucus process is only "undemocratic" when your candidate gets their ass kicked

I've observed several caucus events and they are VERY democratic. You have plenty of time to schedule to go to caucus. What it brings are voters that know the issues and can discuss them with other voters.

[WolverineDG]

57. If you really want to participate

you will find a way.

dg

[ProgressiveEconomist]

44. But simultaneously, HRC wants to net 616k votes and 100 delegates from Michigan's

and Florida's Soviet-style "primary elections", with Obama's name missing from one ballot and campaigning not permitted in the other sham "election".

It's reminiscent of the sophistical reasoning in Bush V Gore, that somehow counting all the LEGITIMATE votes would violate Equal Protection of the Laws.

[billyoc]

47. Yes, they're obviously undemocratic, Clinton lost.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ExFreeper4Obama]

48. Pack it up Hill, your finished. n/t

[sniffa]

56. They are undemocratic

because Hillary doesn't do well in them.

[Why Syzygy]

60. Those are her failing tactics.

There were some precincts here that signed in and voted until late into the night. It was not "an hour or two". People are turning out in record numbers for good reason. They are sick of status quo. They are nauseated with the path we are on. They want to DO SOMETHING. McChillary doesn't want that to happen? I don't think she can stop it.