SEAT the Florida Delegates in FLORIDA AS IS and NEW PRIMARY in MI

[boston bean]

It's as simple as that.

That is the fairest Solution for all.

[cali]

1. They'll work something out

but I doubt FL will be seated as is. Knowing Dean, that won't be happening.

[ihelpu2see]

84. They should live with their choice, and it was their choice... They will know better

next time.

[flpoljunkie]

250. FL and MI 2 of 4 states where Republican turnout exceeded Dem turnout. The others Utah, Arizona.

Every other state has had record Democratic turnout. No way should the voters of Florida or the DNC accept the January 29th primary results as legitimate!

[fadedrose]

276. Dems were "advised" by people in the know

Ask for a Republican ballot (in Michigan) so that if the candidate you want is NOT on the ballot, at least you can vote for the republican candidate you would most like to see get in who would be easiest to defeat. Either that or vote "uncommitted."

[napi21]

2. What really be the effect for each candidate if these candidates

were seated? I keep hearing all this talk of how important it is and how necessary itt is, but I checked the other day and it doesn't look like it would put either one of the candidates over the top in delegates!

[boston bean]

4. It gets Hillary much closer to him in elected delegates and is a story changer. nt

[EmilyAnne]

8. It would at least put this issue at rest. Damn, I hope Florida gets its act together by the GE.

Seriously, how many times can elections get botched in that state?

[DrDan]

14. and exactly how was the election botched?

It was the candidates who decided not to put their names on the ballots.

It was the national party that decided the voters should be disenfranchised for the sins of the party leaders?

It was the party leaders - on both sided - who were so hungry for power that created this mess.

The election came off fine.

[EmilyAnne]

18. I see what you mean. I still don't understand why this had to happen. Couldn't they foresee such a

fiasco? Its bizarre and I just don't see a reasonable solution to it. Its just another issue to polarize the party with.

[DrDan]

31. I agree - but it is a fiasco of our own making

the DNC and the state party leaders are the culprits here - both hungry for power and status.

[Usrename]

65. I don't think that's right. The part about the DNC being culpable.

The party leaders have never accepted Howard Dean, the people's candidate, as head of the DNC. This whole mess, at least in FL, was created to try and demonize Dean and get him tossed out on his ear.

Thankfully, the folks who got Dean installed in the first place, mainly the internets bloggers and MoveOn.org types, were not fooled by this whole maneuver, and they refused to play along with the whole "blame Dean" strategy. If you think a little about who the folks are, inside the party, who have publicly been the enemies of Dean, it's not difficult to see their involvement in the debacle with the FL primary, and which candidate they support.

[durrrty libby]

50. Don't blame the people. Blame the repub gov and legislature

[Usrename]

68. The govenor and the Republicans had nothing to do with this debacle.

The party leaders are to blame.

[durrrty libby]

78. I know first hand so shove it

[olkaz]

191. good lord!

You are just a shining example of intelligent conversation, aren't you?

Did Obama crap in your cereal this morning?

[anigbrowl]

252. Why, are you a FL state legislator? I think not, somehow.

If you have a case, make it.

[Umbram]

279. Always a persuasive argument. nt.

[trueblue2007]

287. WELL THERE IS NO WAY, WE SHOULD PAY MILLIONS FOR MORE ELECTIONS.

That is out and out stupid....a horrid waste of money.


The people voted. MAKE THEIR VOTES COUNT!!!

[Florida22ndDistrict]

213. RE: I keep hearing all this talk of how important it is and how necessary itt is...

As a Florida resident this issue is not about which horse finishes first, this is about our vote. If you don't think that Florida's vote is important, I hope you enjoy the next 4 years.

[napi21]

277. I don't mean that your vote isn't just as important as everyone elses

but in all fairness, how is this situation different from when my primary is so late in the cycle that my vote doesn't matter either? I always voted, but I knew it would only matter for the local & State candidates because by the time I had the opportunity to vote, the presidential candidate had already been chosen. Hell, I even voted for Dean even though he had dropped out of the race because I wanted to demonstrate to everyone that I still thought he was the best choice.

From what I can tell, even IF FL & MI have another primary vote, it WTILL won't matter, because neither candidate can get to 2,025...with or without those two states.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

283. RE: I don't mean that your vote isn't just as important as everyone elses

Florida usually comes late in the primary cycle as well. In 2004 I voted for Dean even though Kerry had been crowned, but at least my vote was recorded and delegates were sent to the convention to represent me. This is not about who wins the horse race, this is about the fundamentals of democracy and respect for those who have ultimate power (the people). Being that neither candidate can get to the magic number without the supper delegates or through a second vote, it is even more imperative that the voters of Florida and Michigan are counted and represented at the convention in full. As a side note, that magic number gets bumped a little higher if the sanctions are removed.

I understand your sentiments, because I am in the same boat as you many years. The only real solution I see to that problem is a single day closed national primary for 2012 and beyond. Maybe this mess will bring improvement, but a national primary will probably be taken down by the media, because they make so much money by having it stretched out.

[LeftCoast]

3. How do you figure?

Both states broke the rules.

[boston bean]

5. Dean's rules, what about the rules of democracy where everyone's vote counts. nt

[LeftCoast]

10. Except you're saying one state should revote

I don't understand how that's fair.

[Hepburn]

147. JMHO....

....it seems to me that they did not like the rules, broke them, had a tantrum and are now being rewarded.

IMO, that sucks.

[jefferson_dem]

20. Blame the FL and MI officials who broke the rules, knowing there would be consequences.

Those are some of the same officials who are now whining about the fact that they don't get to play. Democracy requires fair and open elections. Neither was the case in those two states.

[seabeyond]

91. this isnt a tough one. break the rules, pay the price. i am not getting

all these people wanting special rules.... now that they are paying the price. and i ma not even a rule follower. but since i break so many rules i understand that always there is the chance i have to pay the price. firstly

and secondly, blame the appropriate people. blaming dean is again giving the people who did all this what they want. dean tried at least twice, before and now to find a solution and those in power said no

re run both. but a candidate doesnt pay the price, we dont have an unfair elections, we have been fightin that for years.

what about all the people that knew votes didnt count, didnt go into vote and now yawl say SURPRISE..... it counts. then you, those that advocate letting this vote stand, YOU...... disenfranchise that voter.

[anigbrowl]

254. Why did the state legislatures move the primaries forward knowing this would happen?

Weren't they warned explicitly about this outcome? BTW I am NOT arguing that the votes should be ignored.

[MadBadger]

6. The fairest solution would be to have two new primaries.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. Two new FULL primaries would be fair but unless each state ponies up the $25 million for them.....

it isn't going to happen.

[seabeyond]

95. then it once again falls on the states shoulders for fuckin their voters. n/t

[mainer]

7. Obama didn't even campaign in florida

He assumed the rules were the rules, and he thought everyone would abide by them. Now the rules have changed?

[Uben]

12. Neither did Clinton nt

nt

[yourguide]

17. she held "fund raisers" in FL

stating it wasnt campaigning but come on...

[kikiek]

23. Obama held fund raisers there. He ran campaign ads. How come he flies under the radar all the time?

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama is the first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then.

Obama and others have pledged not to campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

[Florida22ndDistrict]

239. RE: she held "fund raisers" in FL

You do realize that Florida citizens have the internet, magazines, newspapers, radios, and television don't you? The campaigns were quite obtrusive this year, so don't ramble on about how candidates didn't get to campaign. Every news channel has been playing with there touch screens and big boards nonstop for the past 6 months.

[dysfunctional press]

278. and clinton had MUCH more name recognition to start with.

it's never fair to change the rules after the fact.

[kikiek]

13. Actually he ran national ads there on cable. His excuse was they couldn't stop them in FL alone.

He was the 1st democrat to run them in FL.

[DrDan]

15. obama is the only one who had ads airing in Florida

[Hugabear]

21. While Hillary actually showed up in Florida

You can call them fundraisers if you want. She got plenty of TV coverage here in Florida when she came down here.

[kikiek]

25. As did he! He held a press conference after a fund raiser the day after he signed the pledge!

[Iceburg]

39. "assumed the rules were the rules"??? he ran ads in FL -- AGAINST the rules/nt

[ElsewheresDaughter]

81. yes he did! Obama ran TV ads, held fundraisers and he even held a News conference in Tampa!!

[murbley40]

153. Is running ads not campaigning?

He ran ads in Florida. He was on the ballot and the votes should be counted and awarded.

[ps1074]

9. how is it fair?

By the time of these primaries, Hillary was 20-25% up in the polls nationally. We all know how well Obama is doind when voters get to know him. One can argue that if there was actual campaigning in these states, he would have done much better and could even win FL and MI.

[DrDan]

16. set a date and let 'em campaign . . .

not so difficult, really.

[Mezzo]

11. yep. He campaigned there (FLA) and outspent her

as far as I'm concerned, taking his name of the Michigan ballot while leaving it on in SC was falling for a sucker bet.

[ObamaWinsWH09]

19. All the candidates agreed to not seat the delegates....

We can't change the rules in the middle of the game. They can't go back on their own word, just because one of them won. I want to see Florida and Michigan count too, and they will, but it won't be a rule changer that does it.

[kikiek]

24. Obama said he would despite that. Think losing had anything to do with rule sticking now?

According to Sanchez and Tom Scarritt, Obama was asked during the event about making sure Floridians have a role in the nomination, despite the DNC sanctions and the pledge. Scarritt said Obama responded that he'll "do what's right by Florida voters."

The DNC has threatened to refuse to seat a Florida convention delegation because of the too-early primary, which the Florida Legislature decided on last spring. But if a candidate amasses enough delegates before the primary to ensure the nomination, that candidate would take control of the convention, including the power to seat a delegation.

State Democrats are considering asking all candidates to pledge they would seat the state's delegation.

The boycott pledge was demanded by the four states - Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina - which are allowed to hold primaries before Feb. 5.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

[ElsewheresDaughter]

85. At a News conference in Tampa Obama told reporters "I promise to have the FL delegates seated"

Holding that News conference was AGAINST the rules and he knew it!

[anigbrowl]

256. Source for your statement? Cause it doesn't match my sources.

Back it up with facts.

[charlie]

26. No, the pledge they signed

was to not campaign. Nothing about the fate of the delegates. So, now we're in a storm of high dudgeon over disenfranchisement because someone who assumed they'd win with or without them, suddenly needs them reeeeal bad.

[kikiek]

27. The only one who ran campaign ads in FL was Obama too.

[UALRBSofL]

51. The candidates did not agree to not seat the delegates

Get your story straight. The only contract they signed was they would not campaign in these states.

[lojasmo]

22. Can't seat Florida. Against the rules.

Dean can't change the rules in a way which would unduly benefit one candidate over another. the states each need to hold another contest, or abide by the constitutional committee's decision.

[MonkeyFunk]

64. Clinton won

fairly in Florida. It's not an unfair advantage for her to have the delegates seated.

[Usrename]

77. That's just a lot more crap.

She never won Florida fairly. She agreed that Florida was out of bounds. Your just lying again.

Oh yeah, that's right, I almost forgot. Hillary says she won FL and MI so it must be true. :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

82. She did win

1.7 million democrats voted - more than twice as many in 2004. Every candidate was on the ballot. Clinton won, and she had no advantage over the others.

The only one who had a slight advantage was Obama, whose commercials ran there.

[Usrename]

115. You think she won a contest that she agreed was not a contest.

That's dishonest.

And there were no ads here until AFTER the South Carolina primary was over, so none of the early states that were being protected was ever affected by it. And, the agreement to stay out of Florida had already been violated by Clinton at that point. You must know that, if you know all the other talking points.

You are being fundamentally dishonest about this, and you must know it.

That's alright, keep on kidding yourself.

Why do you think Edwards and Obama had their names removed from the ballot in Michigan, and why do you think they tried to get their names removed in Florida? Why would they need to bother with that?

Because they knew folks like you would be dishonest about this, that't why.

[MonkeyFunk]

137. What's dishonest?

Obama had ads run in Florida. I don't care if you think he had a good excuse - the fact is, he had ads running. Therefore, he was the only candidate that can be said to have had any advantage in the Florida primary.

Clinton violated no part of the agreement, btw. Fundraisers were specifically allowed, and Obama held fundraisers there before Clinton did.

[Usrename]

194. Yeah, keep telling yourself this stuff.

Obama was on the campaign trail here in FL. :eyes: I don't think you're going to convince anyone.

[MonkeyFunk]

197. I never said he was on the campaign trail.

Why would you suggest I did?

[Usrename]

286. Here is the story of the Obama campaign in Florida.

http://www.pollster.com/08-US-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

These two graphs show the rolling FL polls and the rolling National polls.

Can you venture a guess as to when the Obama campaign pulled out of Florida, per the agreement?

[yourguide]

99. She didnt win FAIRLY in FL

she won on name recognition alone.

Again, if campaigning, advertising, and allowing the voters to "kick the tires" wasnt an important part of of the process wouldnt all the candidates stay home? If that was the case only movie stars would win in elections, on name recognition alone.

so stop already.

[MonkeyFunk]

113. People keep saying that...

do you have a link to any polls showing the relative name recognition of Clinton and Obama in late January of this year?

[Usrename]

118. Now you are just completely in denial.

Everybody (except for you) understands that Obama has closed 20 and 30 point leads in states where Clinton was the presumtive leader. Go ahead and pretend that you are not aware of this phenomonon. You are only kidding yourself. I don't think anyone else here is fooled.

[MonkeyFunk]

134. Do you have a link to any polls

showing the relative name recognition of Obama and Clinton in late January of this year?

[yourguide]

140. yes...ALL of them

Lest ye forget she was the presumptive nominee prior to Iowa, her national numbers were HUGE, she had ALL of the media coverage and all of the money until Iowa, and then what happened in Iowa - Obama campaigned, she claimed she'd lock it up Feb 5, and what happened? Obama campaigned. And that's where we are today. Had she not deployed her "ignore 40 states" strategy she could have won.

So STOP, campaigning is a very important part of this process and sways voters - if it didnt then why would the candidates bother to go out and do it?

[Usrename]

193. Why, so that I can reinforce your cognitive dissonance?

When you admit to me that Obama has closed 20- and 30-point leads to win states where he has campaigned, then I might direct you to a poll or two.

Until then, you are on your own with your fantasies. I won't play along.

[yourguide]

120. yes, ALL of them...

Lest ye forget she was the presumptive nominee prior to Iowa, her national numbers were HUGE, she had ALL of the media coverage and all of the money until Iowa, and then what happened in Iowa - Obama campaigned, she claimed she'd lock it up Feb 5, and what happened? Obama campaigned. And that's where we are today. Had she not deployed her "ignore 40 states" strategy she could have won.

So STOP, campaigning is a very important part of this process and sways voters - if it didnt then why would the candidates bother to go out and do it?

[MonkeyFunk]

138. Do you have a link to any polls

showing the relative name recognition of Obama and Clinton in Florida in late January of this year?

[yourguide]

142. asked and answered.

sorry, keep spinning all you like.

[MonkeyFunk]

145. Sorry, I didn't see a link

please post one in your reply to this.

[yourguide]

149. Here's one in california

amongst dems:

96% clinton
77% obama

http://workingcalifornians.com/story/analysis_of_ca_primary_voters_survey_democratic_horse_race

read it and weep.

[MonkeyFunk]

That's California in April of 2006

Got Florida in January, 2008?

[yourguide]

151. Ohio

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2007/05/14/daily34.html

HRC: 100%
Obama: 87%

[MonkeyFunk]

159. That's Ohio in May of last year

Got Florida for January of this year?

[yourguide]

161. Just like an HRC supporter - keep moving the goalposts

It's pretty obvious but if you want to start denying polls now be my guest.

[MonkeyFunk]

172. Don't be daft

you asserted that Clinton won in Florida only because of name recognition. I asked you for evidence of that, and you post polls from other states from last year.

I'd need to see a poll from Florida in January of this year to determine whether you're just talking out of your ass.

[yourguide]

174. Just posted one from FL in November

which is close enough...

[MonkeyFunk]

177. And there was a 2% difference

which logically would be even less come January, after Iowa and New Hampshire, and after Obama's ads ran in Florida.

So there was no actual difference in name recognition between the two. Your assertion is bullshit.

[yourguide]

179. That 2% would be 35,000 vote advantage for HRC.

That's what that 2% equates into and we havent event started on the neutrals yet. Also an automatic 2% margin in her favor in the totals. That's an automatic 51% - 49% in her favor at the polls.

You denial is what's bullshit, I just gave you the math but you deny deny deny.

[MonkeyFunk]

196. Again

it's statistically meaningless. And you can't presume that 35,000 people went out to vote for Clinton adn didn't know who Obama was. That's just silly.

The fact is, name recognition wasn't a factor. People in Florida have TVs.

[yourguide]

217. 2% saying they didnt know who he is

is not statistically meaningless, there is no margin of error on that. I can assure you that if you have a candidate that you know vs. a candidate that you've never heard of you would vote for the candidate that you have heard of, otherwise Mike Gravel would have done better at the polls. Dont be an idiot. That is an easy 2% advantage and considering how tight this race is EVERY percentage point counts

Now, lets move on to the undecided dems, the neutrals, I hate to break it to you yet again but 28% neutral on Obama and 15% neutral on Clinton which equates into nearly HALF A MILLION voters in FL have no opinion either way on Obama and over 250,000 voters have no opinion either way on HRC. This is why people go out to states, advertise, and campaign - thats why CANDIDATES campaign in these states to let voters get out and kick the tires.

You know as well as everyone else not being able to campaign and advertise puts the lesser known candidate at a disadvantage so stop this nonsense. If you want a FAIR vote then let them revote, if you want to strong arm the ALL of the voters in the United States then keep begging for them to be seated.

Mark Penn, is that you?

[yourguide]

155. Clemson university poll

http://www.clemson.edu/newsroom/special_reports/internal/Poll_details.htm

HRC: 98%
Obama: 91%

[MonkeyFunk]

162. That's August of last year

Got anything from Florida in January of this year?

[yourguide]

167. Florida November

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media/acrobat/2007-11/33818342.pdf

HRC: 100%
Obama: 98%

Based on 1750000 turnout, that 2% equates into 35000 voter advantage for Clinton out of the gate. That's an automatic +2% for HRC. And it looks like not having a chance to sway the 28% neutral for Obama and 15% neutral for Clinton equates into 490,000 voters and 262,000 who had no opinion either way - I'd suggest that is very significant.

So, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it's quiet time for you - take a time out.

[MonkeyFunk]

176. OK

so in November, he was 2 points behind her.

I would expect that it was closer come January.

There's no reasonable statistical difference between them in name recognition, so your assertion is just stupid.

Maybe you need a time out.

[lojasmo]

125. It is AGAINST THE RULES

It would give her an advantage, and it is AGAINST THE RULES>

[MonkeyFunk]

143. It's an arbitrary rule

and now meaningless. Iowa and New Hampshire kept their primacy. Now it's all about protecting Howard Dean's ego. It should be about making sure the votes count.

In 2000, Florida Republicans touted a blind allegiance to the rules in order to disenfranchise people. Most of us thought that was wrong.

[Hepburn]

152. Rules are rules....

...arbitrary or not....it is NOT like she had no notice of the rules, right?

And now that she has been knocked off her throne, she wants the rules to change.

:eyes:

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

247. Rules are for fools in Hillary's warped world.

[lojasmo]

237. No it wasn't.

The rules were agreed to by committee. Dean can not change the rules mid-campaign. He HAS to remain impartial.

[truebrit71]

260. "Clinton won" and "fairly" do not belong in the same sentence regarding FL...

..."fair" is the furthest thing it was...

[dysfunctional press]

280. what if "clinton won" and "fairly in Florida" are followed by...

..."NOT!"

[truebrit71]

282. Thanks you! Much success!!

Would you like to see my sister?

[yourguide]

28. Nope it's not

Sorry it's not an fair election when it's based on name recognition alone. Campaigning is an important part of the process as is advertising so people can get their message and platform out there. If campaigning wasnt an important part of the process then why dont these candidates just stay home? You have a candidate who won on name recognition alone and if all elections were run the way FL was and counted then the only people we would have in office are movie stars due to name recognition.

And as a side note, if people were paying THAT much attention to what's going on in politics down there, where was the outrage when the FL legislature voted to have their votes stripped from them, why is this all coming up now with the board flooded with people going I didnt know?

Stop people. MI cant count as is, FL cant count as is and shame on frigging Bill Nelson and the other DEMS down in FL that voted them into this mess.

[DrDan]

30. so the solution is simple

let 'em campaign - and lets vote.

The party screwed it up - the party should pay for it.

and. . . . the Fl legislature did not vote to strip votes from the Dems - that was the decision of the DNC.

[yourguide]

35. No it was the FL legislature that stripped the votes

the vote total was 115-1


Dean offered a revote solution, paid for by the DNC - Bill Nelson said NO NO NO.

[DrDan]

42. here is the bill that was voted on

it had to do with setting dates

"Revises fines applicable to violations of requirements relating to third-party voter registrations; revises dates relating to presidential preference primary; authorizes municipalities to move their election date by ordinance to coincide with presidential preference primary; exempts persons seeking federal office from resign-to-run law; requires that all write-in candidates reside within district of office sought at time of qualification, etc. "

http://www.myfloridahouse.com/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049&SessionId=54&SessionIndex=-1&BillText=&BillNumber=537&BillSponsorIndex=0&BillListIndex=0&BillTypeIndex=0&BillReferredIndex=0&HouseChamber=H&BillSearchIndex=0

It was Howard Dean and the DNC that set up the rule stripping Florida of delegates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275.html

[yourguide]

45. So

They were warned ahead of time not to move up the primary, they did.

They were told if they did it that they would be stripped of their delegates, they didnt care.

They could have voted against it, they didnt.

They could have had the moved up date removed from that legislation, they didnt.

They could have accepted deans offers for a revote, they said no over and over again.

So if there is a law on the books that says you cant park in front of a hydrant, and you park in front of the hydrant are you going to blame the cop for you getting a ticket?

[DrDan]

46. they were told ahead of time . . .

what did the DNC think the repubs in Florida would do? They are not dumb - they know better than us how to rig an election - legally.

We were outplayed because of a ridiculously naive H Dean and DNC.

[yourguide]

53. The dems voted FOR it. 1 lone dem voted against it.

[DrDan]

74. I know - I have never supported hte actions of the state leaders

I think there is blame on both sides . . . they are both power-hungry

[yourguide]

59. Read post #4 of this thread

it clearly shows the FL legislators were in this all the way:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4921691

[DrDan]

49. but . . . if someone else is driving a car and knowing it is illegal

to park in front of a fire hydrant, but does so anyway - who should pay the ticket?

The owner of the car - or the driver who parks it there.

The voters are getting screwed - and this needs to be corrected!

[PassingFair]

56. Recall the legislators who voted to force the early primaries.

In Florida, a DEMOCRAT INTRODUCED the legislation.

All but ONE democrat voted for it.

THAT is where the outrage should be channeled.

A DO-OVER is on the table.

The people of Florida and Michigan should DEMAND it.

[DrDan]

66. how do you "demand it"

I have written letters, written LTTEs.

There are plenty even on this site who continue to support "screw the Florida voters".

There is plenty of blame to go around - the whole "no delegates" rule should have never been considered. The D's in the Fl legislature are to be blamed for their actions. All grabbing power - at the expense of the voters.

[yourguide]

73. CALL THEM

Have all of your friends call them, hell go to their office!

This is not a "screw the florida voters" message as much as it's unfair to allow the state of Florida or Michigan to screw one of the candidates without a fair election.

I am all for a re-do, but if MI or FL wont accept a re-do then NO they shouldnt be seated. I mean really, look at Michigan, only HRC was on the ballot - should those delegates be seated?

Look, the DNC has offered at least 4 times to pay for a caucus for you guys and Bill Nelson keeps saying NO NO NO. Dont blame the DNC for this. Call and keep calling your dems, have your friends call the FL state dems but let's be fair, I think it's unfair to seat as is.

[PassingFair]

75. Can't you hire these assholes....?

They're not doing anything right now....

[DrDan]

83. yeah - but they are practicing for November . . .

[yourguide]

87. Dan, just know I feel your pain

but you guys have to put pressure on your leaders. I think this is so screwed but I just am trying to make sure people put blame where the blame belongs and hopefully your state will see it for what it is and kick some of these folks responsible for this mess out of office.

[DrDan]

92. I agree with that . . .

we need a drastic overhaul in all layers of this organizational debacle . . .

[yourguide]

57. So why hasnt Bill Nelson accepted Dean's solution?

The voters are getting screwed by their own state leaders.

So this is a presidential election, the election was unfair, are you going to screw one candidate so an unfair and uneven vote can be counted?

[DrDan]

61. I don't know - but the voters are getting screwed!

[yourguide]

63. Read post #4 of this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4921691

This poster has been following this since prior to the legislature voting on it.

What should happen is the people in these states should pressure their state leaders to accept Dean's offer of a compromise. They screwed up and they should stop this my way or the highway mentality, they should accept deans compromise.

[Maribelle]

The people's votes are a far more important part of the process than campaigning, don't you know?

And as far as the campaigning for Obama to get his message hype - California shoots you down.

Stop insulting the intelligence of Floridian Democrats.

Florida voted. Their votes were counted and placed in the archives of The State of Florida. Delegates have been selected based on the vote.

The only thing that remains is will the Obama supporters respect our Democracy where the voices of the people matter, or will they continue with this forked-tongue hypocrisy where they want all Democrats in Florida punished because a few egomaniacs could not get their own way?


From my perspective the egomaniacs are winning and tragically our Democracy is losing.

[seabeyond]

103. what about all those voters that didnt vote, knowing it didnt count, knowing their people broke

rules and nothing would come of the election and did NOT go out and vote because they knew it was not a legitimate primary. and now you all are saying SURPRISE the primary counts. tough shit that you didnt vote. shit out of luck

what about those people that this disenfranchise. or are they expendable.

[Maribelle]

166. That's not true 'knowing it didn't count'. Each voter in Florida received ....

a sample ballot in the mail with pertinant instructions regarding how important their vote was. All local news stations and news papers carried important messages from the governor, their state representatives, their state senators, the Florida Democratic Party, and their locally elected officials regarding the fact that the vote would count and it was an extremely important election for them. There were other issues on the ballot besides the presidential preference.

It was a critical vote for Florida. Voters shattered all records in turnout.

In the mail, on all TV stations, in each and every newspaper - - - - - the message was heard loud and clear.

A Florida voter today that says they did not vote because they heard their vote would not count is like a Florida resident saying they did not evacuate from Key Largo because they heard from a friend that Hurricane Andrew was heading to Canada.

[seabeyond]

195. you guys were having a fight. florida official saying would count. dnc saying no

because they say it would count, as they break the rules does not make it fuckin so.... obviously. thru force the voters may have hoped that would be enough to convince dnc to allow it to count. i would have hoped too. STILL..... the stupid ass elected officials that did this was doing it to go after dean and it was a stupid fuckin political game with these people and back fired and the voters are paying the price.

NO campaigning was a clue in to each and every voter that the whole thing was fucked up

[Maribelle]

230. The DNC said the delegates would not be seated. Nothing more.

And not one presidential candidate on the ballot in Florida agreed to anything concerning the delegates on or before January 29th. Not even one.

[wileedog]

216. IF what you really care about

is making sure every vote is counted and every person has a say, you MUST have a do over.

People were told it wouldn't count and stayed home. To seat the delegates as is denies those people their voice too.

You can't claim to care about the Democratic process and yet argue to tally an invalid vote just because you got the results you want.

Quite frankly, I think Obama would get killed again anyway given FLA's demographics, so I'm not sure why Hillary people are so against this.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. I'm All For That Solution.

[Coexist]

132. you really can't - Obama has proven that when he personally campaigns

in an area, he cuts into Clinton's lead.

[jsmirman]

32. Ok, so you've made a ridiculously dumb statement. How about showing us the

tortured logic that gets you there.

Let's see what possible nonsensical steps took you to your conclusion. Seriously, why don't you share with the rest of us.

Because I think this would not only be the LEAST fair solution, but it would be a celebration of terrible behavior and the kind of totally illegitimate result that Republicans have hung their hats on for the last eight years.

I actually think it is a SHAMEFUL position.

Now, it's silly, because the perversion of the system you are dreaming of just isn't going to happen, but please, let's see the elaborate goings on in your fly wheel.

Terrible.

[bowens43]

33. the fairest solution is to do what has already been agreed to.

the delegates don't get seated. You'd have to be as morally bankrupt as Hillary to think otherwise.

[jmg257]

34. No - both re-votes (which no one will pay for) or don't seat them. Fairest for the candidates.

Which they agreed to by the way.

Pissing off voters in a couple states is bad enough, but pissing off 1/2 the party voters in the country is another.

[WVRevy]

36. I asked a question yesterday...

...and pointed out that Hillary ALWAYS has an advantage BEFORE campaigning in any given state. That is purely a name recognition thing, where she is basically getting the same advantage that an incumbent would receive, but loses that once both sides start campaigning in the state.

THAT is the reason it would be nowhere NEAR "fair" to seat Florida as is. The pattern has been repeated in virtually every state that has held primaries already. Hillary starts out up 20 points, and has to hold desperately to that lead until the day of the primary. It is flat ridiculous to suggest that the playing field was anywhere near level in Florida, when Obama never got a chance to campaign in the state.

I have no problem with a re-vote, but would STRONGLY object to seating either of those states as they currently stand. The elections there are null and void. PERIOD.

[seabeyond]

105. she was how far ahead in texas. obama came in and campaigned, and won

another point i hadnt thought about. thank you

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

122. He lost. n/t

[seabeyond]

129. no.... actually it appears he has won. but beyond that, he was down 30%

and thru campaigning raised it signficantly

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

136. Agree about tightening it up significantly but lost primary.

I know about the caucus results, too.

I know that he's going to win more delegates in Texas.

I know that mathematically, Clinton was hurt on Tuesday.

Fair, or not, Clinton will be given credit for Texas. (I know it's a tempest in a teapot)

[seabeyond]

144. i jsut had another post saying dean not at fault but doesnt matter....

and here you say fair or not.... doesnt matter

a poster last night said to me a preceived win is a win.... again, truth doesnt matter

well it does. i wish more people believed it did.

obama won, whether he was given credit. those that want to continue to believe a nontruth will no matter..... as with all things, but it is still a non truth

[snappyturtle]

181. Yes. Here we are discussing delegates, delegates, delegates..

obviously very important, but in the delegate count in Texas, Obama's delegate numbers don't matter.
What??????????

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

182. Hillary won the primary. Period.

Obama will win the caucus. Period.

I agree that in terms of delegates, Obama will win Texas. A point that I'm sure will be made after Clinton's confetti clears. Imo, the pledged delegates are going to be what determines the nomination, so yes, Obama won Texas. But Clinton did win the primary with the popular vote and I think it's unfair to suggest otherwise.

Ultimately, we're splitting hairs here.

[seabeyond]

190. no..... obama got more delegates. he won. period. lol lol. geeeesh. n/t

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

201. OK, damnit!

:toast:

[seabeyond]

204. lol lol

i needed the laugh. thanks..... wink

[earthlover]

37. If FL and MI are seated...in 2012 EVERY state will want to move up their primaries....

regardless of the Democratic Party rules.....because they know the rules won't be enforced anyway.....

Sorry, but these states broke the rules. They took a gamble, and they suffer the consequences.

However, if you have another election in MI it makes no sense whatsoever to seat the FL delegation as is! If you have a new election, it should be for both states or it makes no sense.

I think, to be fair in Michigan, since the first election did not have Barack Obama on the ballot, the second election should not have Hillary on it....just to see who does better between the elections.....sarc

[jsmirman]

41. Yes, but let's embrace a position that flies in the face of all logic

and decency, simply because it suits us.

I'm guessing not a single Hillary supporter will contest your points. Why? Because there is no sound response.

[UALRBSofL]

55. In 2012 our votes wont count either

Because the republicans have no intentions of changing the date of the primary. Seeing the florida legislature is overwhelming republican the democratic party can't vote it down.

[MonkeyFunk]

67. we have four years

to broker a deal that's agreeable to all states. We have to find SOME solution to this problem.

[DUyellow]

38. LOL, never going to happen that way.

[tekisui]

40. I can deal with that.

:thumbsup:

Hillary would gain 42, as is. With 27 Uncommitted or Edwards.

MI MUST be re-done to count at all.

[UALRBSofL]

43. MassDemm The whole state of Florida knows now what is going on

It's been on TV and in the newspapers every day. Now we see the republicans in florida getting involved. There saying to DNC, let our votes count. Between the FRP and the FDP they are all making it a big issue that our votes doesn't count. I can't speak for all of florida but I can guess many voters may either skip or do a write-in of Hillary or the independents will vote for McCain. The same thing seems to be going on in Michigan.

[PassingFair]

58. In Michigan we are aware that our legislators and the MDP SCREWED UP.

We want a RE-DO here.

[salbi]

71. They should each have a redo if they want their votes to count

I'm an Obama supporter and even though I think if FL does redo it's primary it will still go to Clinton, at least it will go to Clinton fairly, not by changing the rules to suit the candidate. I think we have a chance in Michigan with a redo but only time will tell.

[UALRBSofL]

80. salbi, florida would go to Hillary cuz we have all these old folks

LOL. :)

[salbi]

72. They should each have a redo if they want their votes to count

I'm an Obama supporter and even though I think if FL does redo it's primary it will still go to Clinton, at least it will go to Clinton fairly, not by changing the rules to suit the candidate. I think we have a chance in Michigan with a redo but only time will tell.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

243. What kind of Re-Do?

A caucus? BHO would like that.
A primary? HRC would like that.

Who's eligible to participate? Everybody? Everybody who voted in the primary on a Democratic ballot? Everybody who did not vote on a Republican ballot?

The rules will cause headaches. If one candidate feels disadvantaged, can they haul the MDP into court?

I agree the legislators, etc, screwed up. But it may make more sense to just have the DNC hold the line, don't seat MI delegates.

:hi:

[PassingFair]

248. I think the rules stipulate a caucus in this circumstance.

Doesn't matter who it would "favor".
That is what is allowable as a fix.

I don't know whether it would have to be an open
or closed primary.

[seabeyond]

107. but god forbid, ..... they wont put the responsiblity for this mess on those responsible.

well bully for them

[shadowknows69]

44. Fairest for Hillary you mean

[jsmirman]

47. Nope. Just best for Hillary. They have no interest in fairness. *

nm

[Vinca]

48. So what do you say to the Florida voters who knew of the arrangement

and stayed home because they believed their vote wouldn't count? You can't change the rules after the game is played. Those voters would be penalized for being more informed than their dimmer counterparts who apparently had no idea the primary vote wouldn't matter because of the idiot agreement their leaders entered into. A redo or nothing.

[durrrty libby]

52. Fl had record turnout. 1.7 million. You want them to not count?

The BullShit here stinks to high heaven

[WVRevy]

54. You're right, it does

Hillary has a HUGE advantage in any state where they don't campaign. As soon as both start campaigning, people start turning to Obama (gee...long exposure to Hillary makes people look elsewhere...kind of explains some things about Bill, huh?).

The bullshit is people like the OP claiming that it shouldn't matter that a relatively unknown junior senator from Illinois had no opportunity to campaign against the most well known female politician in recent American history.

[Apollo11]

62. Once again, an Obama supporter blames Hillary for Bill's extra-marital misbehavior.

In the above post, WVRevy wrote:
(gee...long exposure to Hillary makes people look elsewhere...kind of explains some things about Bill, huh?).


I don't seek to excuse or minimize the damage that Bill Clinton did to his marriage, to his administration and to the Democratic Party by abusing his position of responsibility, messing around with a star-struck young subordinate in the Oval office, and then lying about it afterward.

But I think it is totally unfair to blame Hillary for Bill's mistakes.

[WVRevy]

70. Dude, it was a JOKE...

...that's all. Simply a joke. A reference to that because it seems that the more exposure people in states have to both Hillary and Barack, the more likely they are to go with Barack. Nothing more to it.

[durrrty libby]

76. Get off the Kool-Aid.It has killed your last brain cell. You're incoherent

[WVRevy]

88. Really? What is it in my post you can't understand?

Did I use too many big words for you?

[Maribelle]

90. To wit: California

Perhaps Obama supporters want to forget California happened, yes?

Put your pompous act to rest on that campaigning grandiosity - it is a fact that the Florida vote was valid and has been recorded in history as shattering all democratic records.

[WVRevy]

106. So, that's 1 out of 41...

...How would YOU explain the FACT that Shrillary has lost 20 point leads in virtually every other state?

[seabeyond]

112. and those people that didnt vote? disenfranchise ok for them?

[seabeyond]

110. you didnt answer the question. you dont want those people to count? n/t

[Vinca]

242. Gee, give me a break. I do leave the computer from time to time.

Of course I want those people to count, that's why we need a revote. Would you be so hot to seat the delegates if Obama had the majority? I doubt it. The only fair thing to do is have a revote to allow all parties to campaign. It has been shown many times that as soon as Obama hits a state, his poll numbers rise. In fact, I'd say it happens each and every time by double digits. The Clinton campaign, of course, would like to have a coronation today and forget about fair voting. Can't you just relish in the current glory of "winning" Texas, despite Obama getting the majority of delegates?

[seabeyond]

109. exactly. disenfranchising them MUST be OK for the greater good???? n/t

[electron_blue]

253. Yep. Most of my family stayed home that day.

Only my sister went out and voted. My mom, brother and sil were all set to go but sat it out, saying they were told it was a waste of time. I told them to go anyway, but they didn't. They normally vote and have voted in the last elections. This is not fair - and I'm a Hillary supporter.
\
Don't tell people their vote won't count and then count it.

[MoonRiver]

60. I agree, but Obama seems to hate democracy.

But he better get a long term perspective real soon. If he gets the nom by allowing Florida's Dems to remain disenfranchised, he'll lose Florida through Dems sitting home or voting McCain. Pukes won't even have to cheat.

[seabeyond]

116. do you purposely ignore fact and truth? i gotta know. i am seeing to much of this

and it tends to be a republican trait, but really i want to know.... to defend you candidate do you purposely ignore fact and throw out garbage. do you giggle while you do it. or is there anger and righteousness while you do it. just trying to understand the process

[MoonRiver]

119. Back at ya.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

128. bah hahahhaha. ya, that is another way to handle it. dont n/t

[Vinca]

246. Obama thinks it's fine if there's a revote. Sheesh. Get a grip.

Oh, wait, I'm dealing with Clinton logic here and that means just seat the delegates today to hell with the rules. The Clinton campaign's new motto should be "Just Crown Me."

[ProgressiveEconomist]

69. In other words, net HRC 38 delegates and 288,000 popular votes from an UNFAIR,

undemocratic "election" with no campaigning allowed?

With no campaigning, a sham "election" is a name-recognition contest only. Many Floridians may have thought they were voting for a proxy third term for BILL Clinton, even though they may have seen "Hillary" on the ballot.

Why should an unfair electoral sham be allowed to wipe out half of Obama's LEGITIMATE poplular vote margin in FAIR, DEMOCRATIC primaries and caucuses? See the spreadsheet at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4918049 .

[Apollo11]

86. So a lot of Floridians think that Hillary is Bill?

Man, they must be a dumb bunch down there! :sarcasm:

[ProgressiveEconomist]

96. Bill's precise role in an ostensible HRC presidency still remains unclear

Maybe Hillary would play Dubya to Bill's Cheney, a "proxy" for the REAL decisionmaker.

Maybe some reporter in a future debate will ASK her this question, one of many important matters about which HRC has managed to finesse with complete secrecy so far.

Watching future campaign coverage, look at Barak Obama with spouse Michelle always at his side at important moments, John McCain with spouse Cindy, and HRC standing alone. Hmmmm.

[Apollo11]

98. "In my whitehouse, we'll know who wears the pantsuits!" - Hillary

She said it on CBS The Late Show on February 3rd.

[Maribelle]

94. Who said? Florida ran a fair election. How dare you claim it was undemocratic.

How dare you.

[yourguide]

101. IT WASNT FAIR

it was won on name recognition alone. you HRC supporters are hysterical over this.

[Maribelle]

104. When candidates signed the "I will not campaign pledge" they never signed anything about the vote.

They never signed anything that said continuing with the January 29th election would not be recognized. They never signed anything about not letting the delegates be seated. The vote was fair to all Floridians. It is your misinformation that is not fair. It is your candidate's attempt to obfuscate reality that is not fair. It is beyond shameful, this


It is only the Obama supporters that seem totally confused on this issue. I wonder why?

[yourguide]

108. not fair and sorry...

she won on name recognition alone.

Again, if campaigning, advertising, and allowing the voters to "kick the tires" wasnt an important part of of the process wouldnt all the candidates just stay home? If that was the case only movie stars would win in elections, on name recognition alone.

so stop already.

[Maribelle]

121. Florida had absolutely nothing to say regarding campaigning. Florida held a fair election.

None of your pomposity will change the truth. Get used to the truth.

[yourguide]

126. And none of your ignorance will change the truth

and perhaps you should get used to that.

[seabeyond]

117. no it wasnt. there wasnt anything fair. people thought it didnt count.

candidates didnt campaign. sheeeeit.

[Maribelle]

123. Where are the laws in the US Constitution or Florida's Constitution regarding campaigning?

Your campaigning rant is false regarding fair elections.

Get used to the truth.

[seabeyond]

127. so there should be no rules when a state has primaries or any other

rules what so ever. free for all. you advocate this?

[Maribelle]

135. The State of Florida set their election rules and regulations. The DNC wants to ignore these rules.

Sorry, but the DNC can play the fools all they want, and can play with the delegates all they want, and can twist the truth regarding the Florida Democratic Party all they want.


But the DNC cannot boss the State of Florida around.


And the Florida Democratic Party cannot boss the State of Florida around.

The State of Florida held a fair election based on our democracy. For Obama supports to cry the election was not fair flies in the face of our democracy.

[seabeyond]

148. you really slurped down the koolaide didnt ya. it is warm in florida

add some ice.

[Maribelle]

154. That you would rather personally attack rather then finding the truth speaks volumes.

[seabeyond]

156. no... at a certain point and time we learn to walk away when a person is sit on agenda

at the exclusion of reason. that is all. truth i love. that is not what you are shelling. you are not into fair. you are into winning. i am never impressed or sucked in with that mentality

[Maribelle]

169. The State of Florida held a fair and valid primary election. Any comment that tries to negate this

is invalid, and has as its foundation a biased political and personal agenda.

[seabeyond]

170. dont put hands on ears. no campaigning was allowed. voters thought didnt count, didnt vote

there are two very clear areas that made that primary unfair and invalid.

[Maribelle]

178. It was fair. There is nothing in the election rules of the State of Florida regarding campaigning.

Not campaigning was Obama's choice, Hillary's choice, and all of the other's choice. This has nothing at all to do with what the one millions seven hundred thousand democratic voters' choice to vote on January 29th.

I am appalled that Obama supporters would try to twist the choice of candidates into a view that would negate the choice of the voters of Florida.

This is a democracy. What you are trying so hard to shove down the throats of others does not support our democracy.

[seabeyond]

180. you a lawyer. you are so full of shit. n.t

[Maribelle]

183. One million seven hundren thousand Floridian Democrats chose to vote on Januarty 29th.

These voters shattered all records.

Their voices deserved to be heard. That is the ways of our democracy. I am truly sorry that Oama's supporters do not like our form of democracy.

[seabeyond]

184. no reasoning w/u, a reality. you got it. they broke the rules. they lose. n/t

[Maribelle]

185. So now you're crying out that 1.7 million Democrats in Flordia broke the rules?

Perhaps you had better clearly define this latest rant of yours. Accusing 1.7 million people of breaking the rules is not a pretty thing to do.

Do you speak for Obama?

[seabeyond]

188. the handful of people that made the decisions broke the rule. all have to suffer repercussion. n/t

[Maribelle]

198. Wow. So even though 1.7 million had nothing to do with it you want them to suffer.

Suffer?

How does this support our democracy?


Suffer?

You are truly digging your hole deeper.

[seabeyond]

202. NO i dont WANT them to suffer. that is STUPID. a handful decided on iraq

all those people dying. reality. life. and death. what happens when you have a bunch of assholes with power and control over you. put the blame where it belongs. even yet.... you would rather shift the blame to me, little ole me sittin on a damn computer in amarillo texas, than at the people responsible for this.

[Maribelle]

228. In # 188 you said all have to suffer. Are your retracting that statement or not?

Well, which is it Yes or no?

[apocalypsehow]

214. Wrong. The state of Florida was given fair warning that if it moved its primary up, those delegates

would not be seated. All that burbling piffle about "democracy" is simply that: piffle. They broke the rules, and those are the consequences.

[Maribelle]

229. 50% - - - - - - the DNC and the RNC both said 50% before the law was voted on.

The RNC said 50% and stuck to it.

The DNC SAID 50% before the vote. And after the vote the DNC gave us a song and a dance, and changed their minds to 100%. The DNC let their egos renege on their word.

[wileedog]

219. Telling people the vote doesn't count

and then sitting the seats anyway is not in any way shape or form fair or democratic.

[Maribelle]

232. But what was the source for the 'vote doesn't count'?

[seabeyond]

150. i am not going ot just walk. all agreed the delegates not be seated. voters did not go out

because they knew it was not counted.

regardless of al that other bllshit to put the blame on the person not responsible and the person that has tried to resolve..... bottom line, they all agreed wouldnt count

people didnt vote

what about them

simple question

what about those voters who didnt vote because they knew it wouldnt count

[Maribelle]

171. No one, NONE of the presidential candidates agreed that the delegates would not be seated.

If voters did not go out to vote, they were not paying attention to their local news stations, their newspapers, the Governor, their Florida representatives, their Florida senators, the sample ballots they received in the mail from their local supervisor of elections, the Florida Democratic Party, their elected United States Senators, and a veritable plethora of other extremely important voices.

So you need to ask yourself, when they say "they knew", how did they know - - just who on earth did these voters listen to and how did they receive the politically tainted and false information?

[Jennicut]

89. This is so dumb. New primaries, use the candidate's fundraisinf to pay for them

Seriously. Or if its too expsensive then have caucuses. This is a joke. Florida went against the rules and paid the price. However, the people should still be heard. Maybe all that money flowing into the DNC and the candidate's coffers could be put to could use for a change.

[Maribelle]

130. The taxpayers of Florida paid over $25,000,000 for the January 29th primary.

Floridians have paid a steep price for this already.

Why on earth should they have to pay even more millions for a few egomaniacs that could not get their own way?

[Kitty Herder]

93. The FAIR solution is to follow the rules to which the party already agreed. Or else let them

re-do their primaries so they can have fair ones with more than one candidate on the ballot and people actually bothering to vote because they'll get some delegates from it.

[Maribelle]

102. I think if you were interested in the truth: the DNC changed the rules after the Florida law passed

When the state was working on the law to ammend the dates already passed. the DNC was pretending they would on cut the delegates by 50%. And a funny thing happend on the way to the coventions - - - this is exactly what the RNC is still doing. Sadly, it is the RNC that kept their word and not the DNC. After the Florida law was passed, the egomaniacs at the DNC chaged the rules and shot down the 50% rule and inacted the 100% rule.

The DNC should be ashamed of themselves for not admitting they are the ones that changed the rules in the last instance.

There is only one fair solution to our Democracy.

Florida voices must be heard, their delegates should be seated as is.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

168. Convention rulings to seat MI and/or FL IMO wd be seen as fair as the Bush V Gore

USSC decision. Howard Dean said this morning on MSNBC that if there's no re-vote, seating or not seating the 128 MI delegates and the 185 FL delegates would be up to the Clintonite-heavy Convention Rules Committee.

"The rules" combined with inertia would lead to a party-destroying CATASTROPHE, in my opinion.

IMO there MUST be do-overs in both Michigan and Florida, or Denver 2008 will make Chicago 1968 look like a stockholders' meeting.

[lse7581011]

97. Why?

They knew the rules......they broke them........face the music!

[GeorgeGist]

100. Even simpler -if it's legal-

Fl and MI should put the winner of their Democratic primaries on the November ballot.

[saltpoint]

111. If it were the fairest solution no one would be arguing over it.

[smiley_glad_hands]

114. The easiest thing to do is for Hilliary to drop out now. eom

[Maribelle]

124. Hillary holds the lead in the Popular Vote. Democrats want Hillary. Obama should drop out.

Yes!

[Coexist]

133. no she doesn't. The only way she leads the popluar vote, is if you are sad enough

to actually consider counting a state where she was on the ballot and he wasn't.

[Maribelle]

146. That some democratic candidates took their names off a ballot was a blunder-

That you want voters voices silenced because of some candidates' blunder is tragic.

[seabeyond]

157. and those voters that didnt vote cause told wouldnt count. just a blunder? n/t

[Maribelle]

187. I believe those that told them their votes would not count were wrong.

Their votes counted.

It is in the state's records. District by district, party by party, their votes were counted.


Whoever told voters that their votes would not count was wrong.

[seabeyond]

200. are you delegates seated. no. so they didnt count. and voters didnt vote

because of the major cluster fuck and now you are saying screw those people that didnt vote..... and disenfranshising them in all your hypocrisy

[Maribelle]

238. On March 1st the votes from January 29th were used to selecte delegates in Florida.

The votes counted with the State of Florida and are in the historic records.

The votes counted as a tool to selecte delegates.

The remaining issues is will delegates be seated.

[Coexist]

192. give me a break - that was a really lame response.

[Maribelle]

199. You know what is truly lame - folks claiming Floridians didn't vote because ...

they were told their vote would not count.

[NC_Nurse]

131. That is not fair.

They need to BOTH hold new primaries or be left out.
The voters in both states didn't think their votes would count. They deserve another chance.
Hillary has more name recognition without campaigning and thus an unfair advantage.
If they are going to seat delegates, they need new primaries. Period.

[Maribelle]

139. All the voters in Florida knew their votes in the primary would count. And they were counted.

Anyone in Florida that tries to claim otherwise is either lying or had oranges stuffed in their ears in the run up to the primary.

[seabeyond]

160. ALL voters knew this would be a legitimate primary? they werent in a quandry as

to why, for the first time in the history of american, there was not any campaigning?

[Maribelle]

205. Obama's campaign ads before January 29th reached 6.5 million households in Florida ....

6.5 million households (how many millions of people does this include?) - - the ads reached down to the tip of Florida, up through the peninsula, and across the panhandle to the border of Alabama.

[seabeyond]

207. florida has endured a few races in the past. they know what a campaign is

you cant convince me those few ads did the trick. now you are just being silly.

[Maribelle]

226. I do not have to convince a soul that political ads are part of a political campaign.

To attempt to indicate that political ads are not part of campaigning is specious at best.

[seabeyond]

266. the point is there was not a campaign in the state. a couple ads dont cut it

and you know it.

[PassingFair]

173. Not true. They knew there was a CHANCE that they might be counted.

Not the same thing.

All candidates pledged to "not participate" in the primary.

How can you be awarded delegates based on an election in which you
did not participate?

The Credentials Committee will have to decide,
if there is no caucus held.

Simple.

[Maribelle]

210. They knew the delegates might not be seated, or might be seated. It is wrong to believe that ...

they thought there was only a CHANCE their votes might be counted.

There is strong evidence that each and every voter in florida was given a sample ballot, stressing how important their vote was, and that their vote would be counted. There is also strong evidence that the Governor of Florida and almost each and every elected representative stressed that the election was valid and their votes would count.

[seabeyond]

212. "representative stressed that the election was valid" and it was NOT.

so go figure. because they are stomping their feet and throwing fits that it is valid doesnt make it so..... obviously. and they probably knew it all along, using the VOTER as a pawn to get one on dean.

arent you pissed at them for using you and all of florida. or are you defending them at all cost cause hillary camp has never liked dean and always worked against him, so really you are on the side of fuckin the voter at the expense of dean. really i want to know

cause this hillary camp pointing finger at dean makes no logical or prangmatic sense.

[Maribelle]

220. Wrong again. The election was valid. It's official. It's in the history books.

Give it up that it was not valid. A lot of pomposity will not change the facts.


http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/index.asp?ElectionDate=1/29/2008

[Dawgs]

273. It's not valid if the candidates did not campaign.

Quit being so desperate. It's embarrassing.

[PassingFair]

284. Are you friends with the guy that says that Hillary won Texas because that's what the papers say?

Rogue Primaries.

No Delegates.

Actual Delegates could vote to
seat the renegades in Denver IF
they choose.....

Or....RE-DO!

[Kaylee]

141. That makes no sense.....

I don't even understand how you could think seating Florida "as is" would be fair. The US is not some Third World country that runs sham elections.

[seabeyond]

163. we seem to have gotten so used to rigged elections that now we insist on them

i too am surprised.

[Life Long Dem]

158. So any state who jumps out of line should be allowed to?

How about others while your in line shopping? Should anyone who wants to jump ahead of you be allowed to once they do? What about the next election?

Then of course there are the rules to prevent that but we don't want to hear that do we?

[skooooo]

164. Must be a Hillary supporter, they don't like to follow rules..

...when it disfavors their side.

[Exilednight]

165. They knew the rules and should live with the consequences.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

175. No, that's not the fairest solution.

Campaigning in those states would've been much different had the delegates counted. Those votes are not a reliable indicator of how the state would have turned out.

[DefenseLawyer]

186. Cancel the remaining primaries and award the delegates to Hillary

It's a simple solution. Seems very fair.

[seabeyond]

206. that would be the only FAIR thing to do. and you know it. n/t

[Maribelle]

189. I would only agree to allowing those that did not vote because they heard their vote would not count

I would also expect them to provide something to substantiation to how they heard their votes would not count - - - - such as hearing Kerry on CNN on election eve, such as hearing Obama rant on MSNBC, or something of the nature.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

203. Aha! You appear to fear letting those who cast ignorant ballots for HRC out of name

recognition in the phony election change their minds and vote for Obama in a new legitimate fair and democratic do-over.

Has any "limited second-chance" election such as you've proposed here ever been held in the past, anywhere, at any time in history?

IMO it's do-over or "wink-wink" in Denver at the Rules Committee's meeting to decide seating.

And if it's "wink-wink", canceling the legitimate votes of 288,000 Obama supporters in other states, hello Bush V Gore 2, hello DP chaos, and hello President McCain.

[Maribelle]

208. Insulting the intelligence of Floridian voters is becoming quite the tool for Obama supporters.

But, I don't think this insulting would woo Floridian voters into voting for Obama.

In fact, I would bet it would havethe opposite effect.

I would bet that, like what happened in California, and in Massachusetts, Hillary would do even better on a redo.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

211. Huh?????

[seabeyond]

209. so you are afraid of fair campaigning before a vote. hillary needs the advantage to win

that is pathetic to even be afraid of a fair campaign and election

[Maribelle]

223. I believe Hillary would do even better in a redo of Florida, as Obama's numbers continue to slip.

However, the taxpayers of Florida already paid over $25,000,000 for January 29th.i

What is pathetic, however, is how Obama supporters attempt to insult Floridians.

[redqueen]

215. Why seat FL as is? That's unfair to voters in FL

who didn't vote because of the absolute mockery of democracy that FL's state party made of the process.

[Maribelle]

221. The vote in Florida shattered all records. What about fairness to these record breakers?

Shouldn't their votes matter more than some few crybabies that try to claim they heard political lies?

[redqueen]

224. Political lies? Those rules were agreed to by FL's leaders.

Calling disenfranchised voters 'crybabies'? Wow.

[Maribelle]

225. Florida's leaders agreed to nothing of the sort.

Florida's leaders thought the DNC and the RNC were telling the truth when they voted in the new laws.

The RNC was. 50 percent of the delegates would be removed from the delegation.

The DNC, however, changed it after the vote from 50 percent of the delegates to 100 percent of the delegates.

[redqueen]

261. Citation please?

[wileedog]

233. Who exactly

decides whose votes are more important than other people's votes?

[Maribelle]

235. The State of Florida has counted ALL Floridian votes - each of equal importance, each recorded.

To the State of Florida, and to most Floridians the argument is: should the resulting delgates be seated.

[redqueen]

271. Except for the ones that weren't cast... because disgusted Floridians

didn't bother voting in their idiotic leaders' charade of a primary.

[kentuck]

218. I don't think a Florida primary would change much from the last vote...

because all the candidates were on the ballot. It could be argued that the Edwards supporters might switch to Obama but maybe not?

[ProgressiveEconomist]

222. You think HRC would beat Obama by 38 delegates and 288,000 votes in a FAIR

election?

With Florida's favorable Hallmark Channel demographic, and with hundreds of thousands of minority "felons" yetl to reclaim their voting rights, stripped away for a lifetime under pre-Crist racist governors and legislatures, Clinton well might win a fair election in Florida.

But not IMO by those wide margins.

[kentuck]

227. In Florida ? yes.

Perhaps more the second time around. That would harm Obama's credibility if he were to lose a "fair" election in Florida. It might be to his advantage to let Florida stand and to call for a re-election in Michigan where he should do much better.

[blocker]

231. GOOD READ HERE:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/05/congressman-calls-special-meeting-to-discuss-fla-mich-delegate-dispute/

[Occam Bandage]

234. Nope. Obama reliably makes up 20 points when he can campaign in a state. Revote or nothing.

[Maribelle]

236. Reliably. As in polls? Actual votes indicate in large states such as California Hillary wins.

Actual votes are more reliable than polls.

[Occam Bandage]

244. Yes, Hillary won California--by 15 points less than she would have had they voted before Obama

began to campaign there. Hillary would still win Florida if they revoted--but states don't pick nominees; delegates do.

[Fox Mulder]

240. I disagree.

They should have a revote both in Florida and in Michigan.

[Zachstar]

241. Except for the many people who stayed home because they knew their vote was useless.

If you are against a re-vote in FL you are for your candidate winning at all costs and it is disgusting.

Revote in both states and whoever pays for them gets to pick primary or whatever!

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

245. How is that fair to the Florida voters who stayed home thinking their vote wouldn't count?

[Justitia]

249. Bullshit - trying to steal an election after the fact isn't fair to any REAL DEMS. -eom

[electron_blue]

251. No. 90% of my family in Florida did not vote in the primary bcs they were told it was only for the

Republicans.

Don't tell people it doesn't count and then count it.

[JackORoses]

255. Wrong! Revotes in both or nothing.

Your Queen isn't stealing it this way.

You Hillarites don't know the meaning of fair. When you say 'fair' you mean 'Hillary wins'.

Isn't it sad that she has to resort to all this just to even have a chance?
She really fucked up her shot at the big time.

[Maribelle]

257. Sadly, if the DNC hadn't reneged on its own rules there would be no argument today.

When the Florida Legislature moved the primary date to January 29th, the DNC rules said pledged delegates would be reduced by 50%. The RNC rules said the same thing. However, the RNC did not renege like the DNC did.

HB537 was passed in May 2007. The DNC changed its rules in late August 2007 to strip Florida of all her delegates.



The BEFORE rules of the DNC can be found on page 20 of the 2008 Delegate Selection Rules:

C. 1. a. Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party
provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes
the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior
to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the
event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after
such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to
the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by
fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty
(50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National
Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from
that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In
determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s
delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the
nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the
next nearest whole number.

b. A presidential candidate who campaigns in a state where the state party is in
violation of the timing provisions of these rules, or where a primary or caucus is
set by a state’s government on a date that violates the timing provisions of these
rules, may not receive pledged delegates or delegate votes from that state.


http://s3.amazonaws.com/apache.3cdn.net/3e5b3bfa1c1718d07f_6rm6bhyc4.pdf

[JackORoses]

258. The DNC makes the rules. The States must follow them. It is very simple.

Quit trying to pretend that this is anything other than a ploy to get Hillary some much needed delegates.

It is sickening watching you Hillarites cry disenfranchisement when your true aim is just to get Hillary in by hook or by crook.
It's shameful.

[Maribelle]

268. Do you agree or disagree that the DNC changed the rules after the law was passed?

The facts are on the ground. I pretend nothing.

[JackORoses]

274. the DNC is allowed to alter its rules. The States and the Candidates are not.

This is the reason any court case fighting this has been thrown out.
Parties are allowed to determine their own rules.

[seabeyond]

265. poster after poster right above who didnt vote or family didnt vote. and you say ALLknew vote

counted. doesnt seem to be the case

[Maribelle]

267. What I said was all registered voters received sample ballots telling them the votes would count.

This is not my opinion. These are the facts.

[seabeyond]

269. you said a persn wasnt to be believed if they didnt know their vote would be counted. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

259. Fair as a marked deck in poker.

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

262. Call em a draw, split the delegates 50/50. Sit their arses down.

And don't do it again!

[IamyourTVandIownyou]

263. Or don't count them at all.

No Do-overs.


Next time, don't break the rules!

[seabeyond]

264. i like this one both states. what you do with a major cluster fuck n/t

[dchill]

270. "FLORIDA AS IS"

Forget it - that's not fair at all.

[Dawgs]

272. It's not fair to those who didn't vote thinking it wouldn't count.

[AZBlue]

275. There is no way of looking at that proposal that makes it "fair."

Either don't seat either or both states re-vote in two or three months.
THAT'S fair.

[theHandpuppet]

281. That's what I think too, MassDemm

The Dems if Florida were victims of a Republican Gov and legislature who forced this stupid early primary of the citizens of the state. They should not be victimized AGAIN by their own party.

Michigan, on the other hand, should have a do-over since Obama's name was not on the ballot. I see that as the only fair solution and I'm an HRC supporter.

[smiley_glad_hands]

285. How about follow the damn rules? eom