Catholic Church 'will refuse Kerry Communion'

[T_i_B]

This story looks daft even by the Torygraph's standards.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/04/wkerry04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/04/ixportal.html&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=62956

A battle in John Kerry's presidential election campaign may soon be fought at the altar rail, if senior traditionalists in the Catholic Church get their way.

Priests and bishops across America are being urged by members to refuse Communion to the first Catholic to run for the presidency since John F. Kennedy. The sanction would be imposed until Mr Kerry abandoned his permissive views on abortion and other issues such as gay marriages.

The campaign - which has the explicit blessing of the Vatican - is gathering force and, with Holy Week drawing near, Mr Kerry's aides have been forced to visit churches before allowing him to attend Mass. Rome has become increasingly concerned about the possibility of an avowedly Catholic president who is both pro-choice and approves of gay civil unions.

Mr Kerry has described himself as a "believing and practising Catholic" who is "personally" against abortion, but believes in a strong separation of Church and State. In Congress, he has voted in favour of the controversial late-term partial abortion method - - in which fully-formed babies are partly delivered before being killed by surgical means.

[DODI]

1. I don't think he can take communion anyway

He is divorced and remarried. Unless he had the first marriage annulled, he should not be receiving communion under "Catholic" law, I believe.

[Quetzal]

4. From what I understand

he did get the marriage annulled.

[I Lean Left]

30. Hold it! He had it annulled???

He has two grown children. How do you get a marriage annulled when you have two grown children? Does that make them illegitimate? Not that there's anything wrong with it! Just saying.

[abburdlen]

44. Common misunderstanding

By Fr. J.T. Zuhlsdorf (father_z) on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 5:55 am: Edit Post

The 1983 Code of Canon Law for the Latin Church still has canons that define legitimacy (cc. 1137-1140). This also includes a description of legitimation. If the parents marry or receive a sanation this legitimizes children. Legitimation can also be obtain through a rescript from the Holy See.

Foundlings and adopted children are assumed to be legitimate unless proven otherwise.

Also, there is no such thing as an "annulled" marriage in the Church. There are some marriages which the Church judges to have been "null" from the beginning. The Church does not make marriages "null". Children of marriages that are declared null are not necessarily seen as illegitimate.

Once there were laws in the older Code of Canon Law that prevented illegitimate children from doing certain things until their status was determined, such as receive Holy Orders. Those canons are no long in the present Code.

Fr. Z

http://oldforum.catholic.org/discussion/messages/41/783621.html?1076507700

[blondeatlast]

16. He can and has in the past. I believe his bishop has

said he is OK with him taking communion.

[dflprincess]

41. You are correct

I was going to post the same thing. Unless his first marriage was annulled - or he was not married in the Catholic Church the first time - he cannot take communion.

[arcos]

2. Their loss, not Kerry's...

I would have lost all respect for the Catholic Church if I still had any left...

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Why? Because Mel Gibson made a call?

n/t

[TexasProgresive]

9. Mel is separated from the RC church

I don't think Mel can receive commmunion as he is a member of a break away sect who don't accept the primacy of Rome.

[Quetzal]

5. Who exactly is running this campaign?

The campaign - which has the explicit blessing of the Vatican - is gathering force and, with Holy Week drawing near, Mr Kerry's aides have been forced to visit churches before allowing him to attend Mass. Rome has become increasingly concerned about the possibility of an avowedly Catholic president who is both pro-choice and approves of gay civil unions.

Probably the Santorum wing of the Catholic Church?

[harrison]

6. Let's see. the Catholic Church can shuffle around pedophile

priests, but Kerry can't have communion. Oh, I think I understand.

[Hav]

8. yeah

They seem to be more interested in talking about gays than kicking out and speaking out against their pedophile priests.

[wildmanj]

11. communion

nuf said and from my observations the pope seems hardly to know where or what country he's in

[Iceburg]

7. Because they are too busy blessing cats and dogs

Don't get me wrong, 2 of my best friends are dogs.
But I do find it a little disturbing that this collective of bipeds makes a point of blessing our darling quadripeds while sentencing gays and lesbians to a life in purgatory.

[xchrom]

10. let it happen

it will do more damage to the american catholic church than good.
the superstitious hordes are looking for out and out confrontations with liberals -- and liberals aren't the ones who will walk away looking bad from these.

[Quetzal]

12. The Vatican will send an envory to meet with Sadaam

but they won't even have a meeting with gays?

Sure, there were human shields that went to Iraq, but they went to protect the people there, not military installations.

[The Backlash Cometh]

13. Good. It's time to get a break-away wing from the Vatican.

Kerry can lead the way. I'm sure he'll find quite a few priests who will do as Jesus would do and give him communion.

[Streetdoc270]

14. Sad but true

The Church has even gone as far as threatening excommunication for Senators and Congresspersons who support abortion rights....


and people wonder why I don't consider myself a Christian...

[ButterflyBlood]

32. if that's the only reason why, it's a poor one

I was raised Catholic and have basically renounced and condemned the entire church, but I'm still a Christian. The Catholic Church is not the entireity of Christianity.

[Streetdoc270]

37. Not the only one....

Just posted it after a bad event with a "christian" who is a hippocrite like most of the bible bearing 'holier than thou'

[Joanne98]

15. Fuck you fundies

Uppity child molesters.

[blondeatlast]

18. I thought we were discussing the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is far removed from the fundies, but if you want to paint us all with a broad brush, you may as well call me Fred Phelps. I have been called that before right here on DU.

How terribly tolerant and progressive of you!

Sheesh.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. I'm agreed on that blonde

:hi:

[pop goes the weasel]

23. not true

The Catholic Church is a broad institution, being, you know, "catholic" and all. There is a fundy wing, and I believe the current pope is in that wing. Catholic fundyism is different than protestant fundyism, but it is no less intolerant of difference, democracy, and individualism.

[drfemoe]

24. Far removed?

Are you saying that just because the RC doesn't erect monuments to hate crimes against gays that makes them better than fundies who do? It's okay to scorn and persecute gays as long as you don't put up a statue? Wouldn't the RC have you believe that 'Jesus' hated gays too? Otherwise, how can they canonize the practice?

They are a lot closer than you seem to perceive.

[goddess40]

28. not that far removed

until they recognise women as equals, they are still on my sh-t list. I can't understand why anyone who values women would be a member of an organization that lists them as second rate citizens.

[OneBlueSky]

17. I thought churches weren't supposed to get involved with politics . . .

isn't that one of the conditions of their tax exemptions? . . . maybe it's time to start taxing those that stick their noses into the political arena . . .

[blondeatlast]

19. Indeed, but this is a muddy issue. I don't like wat the Church is

doing, but they need to be free to do it, IMHO.

Still, coming from this papacy, it doesn't put the Church in a good light at all.

[OHdem10]

47. To think--JohnFKennedy had to make special trips

and speeches through the south to assure them (Christian Fundametalists} that the Pope would not be pulling strings at the White House. Whatever happened to separation of Church and state.

[ScreamingMeemie]

21. It's their rule system, and we shouldn't get uptight about it.

Who cares. The Catholic Church should be refusing 95% ( just a guess) of it's flock communion. The majority of us have made a mortal transgression somewhere along the way...and still, there we sit, in the pews. :hi:

[loftycity]

22. Kerry should be honored with their dismissal--Maybe they

should be paying attention to their pedophile ranks. Instead of chasing down one man to say no he can't have any of their 20 yr old dried up bread.

[The Zanti Regent]

25. It's time to tax all churches.

If they want to render under Caesar with their political action, they need to render under Caesar with their $$$$$ too!

[Killarney]

26. This really bothers me (more)

That Kerry is blasted over and over again for being unworthy of his church because of his abortion stance.

Yet you never hear Bush's church condemning him and he has done MUCH more against Jesus' teachings than Kerry. His tax policy is against Jesus' teachings. His treatment of the environment. Human rights. LYING. KILLING. War.

Um, hello?

At least the Catholic Church is having the courage of their convictions. Bush's church is being hypocritical by presenting him as the chosen son when he is as far from Christian in his works as he could possibly be. He is only a Christian by name, not by what he does.

[kodi]

27. bush as texas gov. had more chances to save lives than kerry

and yet bush did not do so.

the catholic church is at least consistent, no death penalty, no abortion.

where is the outcry from right wing catholics and the church itself against bush not commuting the death sentences of 145 texas inmates who were executed under his administration.

the pope personally asked bush to commute timothy mcveigh's sentence to life, but bush allowed the needle to be plunged into mcveigh's arm.

no outrage from catholics then?

this smells of pure politics, and i think all churches should be taxed.

[ButterflyBlood]

34. actually *'s church has spoken out against him

they opposed the invasion of Iraq and even took out an ad in some major paper explaining it.

[polmaven]

38. Exactly when

has the United Methodist Church "presented him as the chosen son"? Some individuals in the UM, from the fundie wing perhaps, but not the UM Council of Bishops. Many others of us, from the more liberal side, are outraged and ashamed that he dares call himself UM.

I am a UM, and I seem to remember the Bishops condemning this unjustified war. This church generally does not try to set policy on taxes, environment, etc, as an official body. Our quadrennial General Conference will be coming up at the end of this month. I doubt very much that Bush will be even "officially" mentioned, much less held up as "the chosen son".

And to Senator Kerry....you will be welcomed at any time to receive Holy Communion at my church anytime. You do not need to be a member of the church or the denomination, for that matter. You do not need to be a member of ANY church. All you need is a desire to receive the sacrament.

Ya know, come to think of it, the communion ritual is prolly why Dubya chose Methodism in the first place. We use grape juice rather than wine so no one is unable to receive. Hmph...I'll just bet that's why! He can pretend to be religious much more easily that way!

[T_i_B]

48. I'm a Methodist too

And no way is Bush "presented as the chosen son". If anything the liberal wing is much more to the fore in Methodism and Bush is often seen as an embarrasment.

[stopbush]

29. Too bad this won't lead to JK reconsidering his being

"a believing and practising Catholic."

Hey, JK, we atheists/agnostics still love ya. You're welcome to drink wine at our homes anytime!

[I Lean Left]

31. What religion was Reagan?

For some reason I thought he was catholic too. Maybe he was as a child?

Maybe I'm the one with Alzheimers!

[NMDemDist2]

35. reagun was RC Lite wasn't he?? Ecopisipalian (sp?)

[ButterflyBlood]

33. oh well

who gives a fuck what the pedophile protectors say?

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SaveElmer]

45. In what way doesn't he follow their beliefs ?

To my knowledge he has never encouraged anyone to have an abortion, he has said he would not condone one personally. He apparently went through the ridiculous catholic exercise of getting his first marriage annulled. He simply believes in a strict seperation of church and state, something the pope and his minions do not understand!!!

[w4rma]

39. Seems like the RW Catholics doing this should switch to Protestantism (nt)

[ithacan]

40. will they refuse communion to all catholic pols who are pro-death penalty?

That'll be the sign of whether they are acting on principle or whether they are hypocrites.

[AntiCoup2K4]

42. Why would they say that Kerry's the first Catholic candidate since JFK?

They can't mean "nominee", since he's not yet. And as far as other Catholic candidates off the top of my head.... Obviously Bobby and Teddy Kennedy would apply. Pat Buchanan wears his Catholicism on his sleeve and he's been a candidate several times. Wasn't Dukakis Catholic as well? There's gotta be more...

[PopSixSquish]

43. Senator Kerry is Welcome to Recieve Communion in the Episcopal Church

In fact, I'd be honored to sit next to him.

[NightTrain]

46. Looks like we have a nominee for next week's Top 10 Conservative Idiots!

:eyes: