NAFTAgate not over yet! Guess Who Is In Trouble Now? Just GUESS!

[Yes We Did]

Okay, there was a thread posted earlier about Obama being cleared of NAFTAgate... But it forgot one tiny detail. A candidate's staffer did tell Canadian Officals not to worry, and that staffer was from... say it with me: CAMP CLINTON!


Here's a snip for you...

Since 75 per cent of Canadian exports go to the U.S., Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton's musings about reopening the North American free-trade pact had caused some concern.

Mr. Brodie downplayed those concerns.

"Quite a few people heard it," said one source in the room.

"He said someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry."

Read the full story!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080305.wharpleak0305/BNStory/National/home

[k8conant]

1. HILLARY !!!!

[bhikkhu]

2. Politics are what they are...

I take the statement of "someone from Clinton's campaign" to the Canadians the same as I take the statement to them of someone from Obama's campaign. They are both well within the bounds of standard expectations to reassure foreign governments on points perhaps overstated for domestic consumption.

On the whole, if Hillary gets roasted over this to the same level of crispiness as Obama, fair enough. I hope intelligent people will not make too much of it.

[Yes We Did]

3. That's all I ask... I nice Hillary flavored crispy cream donut.

[jakem]

18. ew.

[0007]

22. Wow!! And the average American pit bull owners can't understand why they're

still doubting the process.

[Leopolds Ghost]

10. "intelligent people" should hold Obama at his word of perfectly reasonable expectation not to honor

A temporary, NON-SACROSANCT, NON-SACRED, and non-permanent trade treaty
that has been nothing but good for corporations and bad for workers in
Canada, US and Mexico by turning North America into a vast "duty-free
zone" for large corporations.

If Obama supporters are expecting him to lie to working voters on this
issue, then I say screw 'im. And Clinton goes double of course,
since her husband passed the bill

(along with dismantling every New Deal regulation under the sun,
another set of regulations I am sure wise old Dems will say are
pointless to long for, just like pre-NAFTA conditions are
"never to return")

because that would not be "progress", whereas what Clinton did
was "progress".

Nevertheless, I'm more willing to believe Obama is actually opposed
to NAFTA (and afraid to say so outright for fear of serious physical
or political harm from the big-business media-industrial cartel) than
I am to believe Clinton's bullshit about how she now opposes NAFTA.

It would be a classic Rovian tactic on Clinton's part to use her biggest
weakness to tar her opponent, especially if his advisors are constraining
him not to run to her left on any issue.

Did I mention Bill Clinton sold NAFTA as a temporary measure to be renegotiated
later? How soon we forget. Fuck the wise old Dems in the inner circle, I
say, with their fat bank accounts.

[Voice for Peace]

30. No more politics as usual.

Hillary Clinton seems to thnk politics is a wonderful game of smear and wink, win at all costs. In real life she may be a wonderful person, but who has been in politics too long to see clearly.

Playing these games is disingenuous, it is manipulative, it is fucking with people's heads, intentionally, for the purpose of winning.

I don't like it. If she can not win fair and square on her merits, then she needs to muster some dignity & integrity and lose graciously.

I would not want her on the same ticket with Obama, hope he isn't considering it. I think she's deadly for the GE.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

4. Well isn't this just great for John McCain.

Wouldn't it be nice if so-called "Democrats" would be more concerned about their constituents than the powerful elite. I suppose it's too much to ask. :evilfrown:

[Yes We Did]

5. It is sad. It is very sad.

And I would love to ask Hillary that.

At any rate... Good Night.

[0007]

23. Tough times are for tough people.

[woolldog]

6. It's interesting that Bill Clinton

has connections inside the conservative Canadian government.

I wouldn't be surprised if the fact that Obama was setup to take the fall here for something the Clinton campaign did, is a result of Clinton "calling in a favor" to his conservative Canadian friends.

Hopefully this will give Obama insight on what it would be like to be part of a Clinton White House as VP. He would constantly have to take the blame for the administration's failures and would end up badly damaged politically by his association with them.

[TwilightGardener]

7. There is a reason the government leaked that memo that was used

to make Obama look dishonest (thru his advisor)--someone needs to figure out the paper-and-favor trail here.

[Trajan]

8. Anyone tired of the attack dogs joining DU to tear up red meat in the lobbies ?

I am ....

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. Only if we consider the prospect of real NAFTA reform "red meat" for the lumpen folk n/t

[featherman]

9. The Clinton campaign called the Canadian government...

to reassure them that the Clinton Nafta talk was all just political posturing and not to worry.

Repeat: the Clinton campaign called the Canadians.

Then Clinton and the press bashes Obama who literally doesn't know what they are talking about because his campaign did not call the Canadians.

He looks bad for three days and loses Ohio and Texas.

Somebody has egg on their face and it's not the Obama campaign. Their guy was called by the Chicago Canadian Consulate and he said nothing more nor less than what the campaign has been saying all along.

Of course the damage is done due a careless, incorrect, and vindictive report by the CBC eagerly seized by an American press corps eager to show they can be "tough on Obama".

[Leopolds Ghost]

11. Classic Rovian pre-emptive attack by the Clintons to get out in front of the story

By tarring your opponent with your weakest point in order to pre-emptively undermine him.

[Jawja]

13. Alright.

So WHEN do I see this blared over MSNBC and CNN with the enthusiasm they carried it against Obama?

Want to take any bets on it?

[City Lights]

14. For those watching the cable news channels today, please fill us in

on the air play this gets.

[NDambi]

17. NOTHING YET...NOT A PEEP ON MSNBC

[City Lights]

20. I've sent the story to Mourning Joe, NBC Nightly News, Hardball and to

their general email address. I also tried Countdown, but my emails to KO keep getting returned. I don't seem to have a valid email for KO anymore. :-(

Thanks for watching and keeping me posted! :hi:

on edit - Obama's campaign needs to call the media out on this.

[NDambi]

21. I'll try to send it to KO, and will send to Dan Abrams

[City Lights]

24. I forgot all about Abrams. I just sent it to him too. eom

on edit - Please let me know if your email to KO goes through. I've tried both [e-mail] and [e-mail] and both were returned. :shrug:

[Scurrilous]

15. Kick

For the lady!

:kick:

[Vinca]

16. I'm surprised you would post this. You know it DOESN'T COUNT.

:rofl:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

19. I hope Obama openly condems Hillary on this.

[LeftCoast]

25. Please show me where Obama was 'cleared' of this scandal.

I have read two non-denial denials from the Canadian government about this, but have yet to see a true denial.

[UALRBSofL]

26. Obama has not been cleared and a phone call wont do it

For The Record I could have called the canadians and told them to overlook the NAFTA campaigns and I could have said I worked for the Clinton campaign. So, it still lies on Obama's shoulders. No deflecting this issue.

[casus belli]

27. No scandal, just handwritten mintues from a conference call taken out of context.

http://geo.international.gc.ca/can-am/washington/menu-en.asp?lang_update=1

[LeftCoast]

29. This non-denial denial you mean?

Statement by the Canadian Embassy

Washington, D.C., March 3, 2008 — The Canadian Embassy and our Consulates General regularly contact those involved in all of the Presidential campaigns and, periodically, report on these contacts to interested officials. In the recent report produced by the Consulate General in Chicago, there was no intention to convey, in any way, that Senator Obama and his campaign team were taking a different position in public from views expressed in private, including about NAFTA. We deeply regret any inference that may have been drawn to that effect.

The people of the United States are in the process of choosing a new President and are fortunate to have strong and impressive candidates from both political parties. Canada will not interfere in this electoral process. We look forward, however, to working with the choice of the American people in further building an unparalleled relationship with a close friend and partner.

My problem with this is it doesn't deny that he said it.

[casus belli]

31. That's because there is no "statement" to deny

The entire fiasco is based on notes taken by Joeseph DeMora and are his characterization of the meeting, they are not the words of anyone in Obama's camp.

[LeftCoast]

32. But they aren't denying the substance

They simply say that conveying that wasn't their intent.

If the Obama camp didn't say it, I truly don't understand why the Canadian gov doesn't just say the memo was flat out wrong.

[Yes We Did]

35. You are joking right?

You have to be. Anyone intelligent enough to find this board can't be that ignorant. OH, you had me for a second.

[LeftCoast]

41. No. Not joking. I have been asking for 'proof' for days now and have yet to see a true denial.

I find it telling that you too were unable to provide a direct quote, but instead felt the need to launch an ad hominem attack.

[Yes We Did]

53. You don't like their definition of "is"

Is that it? That's cute... coming from a Clinton supporter.

"is" LOL.

[LeftCoast]

55. Wow. A straw-man and an ad hominem in one post.

Good job!

[Yes We Did]

60. I'm done reading your garbage.

I will not have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

[casus belli]

70. My point is, what can they deny?

Goolsbee was there, he made statements concerning NAFTA which someone appears to have mis characterized. What can they deny except to say we regret this person's interpretation of the substance of the meeting?

edit: also now, with this apparently expanding to include some of CLinton's staff, it appears more and more likely that this may have been an intentional mis characterization that benefits our country's conservative party. Look, if Goolsbee had issued a statement in writing assuring the CE that there was a no intention of modifying NAFTA and that it was simply to allay fears among affected voters, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. Because this was the result of one person's interpretation of a meeting that all involved with the meeting has said was misconstrued as running contrary to Obama's public opinion, I say where's the beef. And this isn't just Obama adoration, I would stand staunchly in defense of Hillary were the shoe on the other foot - which it appears may at least be partially true.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Yes. And Bush Is Innocent With The Downing Street Memo! It Was Just Matthew Rycroft's Words!!!1111

Such a weak, weak, weak excuse, just like when the RW'ers used it. Weak.

[Spazito]

73. Just to add to that....

Mr. DeMora has gone silent, no access to him by reporters, since this broke. The Embassy has disavowed this memo and it's subjective opinion regarding Obama and NAFTA.

[NashVegas]

39. It's the Downing St. Memo All Over Again

Just not as grave a situation.

[Yes We Did]

37. Read Harder.

I know it's tough, but Hillary is caught on this one. I love how when it's Obama, it MUST be true... But if it's Hillary... well, I haven't seen any real evidence... Sad sad sad...

[LeftCoast]

42. You're going to need to provide evidence for both those statements

So far you've not added anything substantive to the debate.

[Yes We Did]

48. Not Substantive.... Look up... All the way up.

This is MY thread. I posted the link... That is pretty damned substantive. Nice try.

So please, back on point now...

Why is it okay that Hillary did this? Please, I would love to hear your defense. I mean, it was true when it was about Obama... So it must be true now. I mean, same source and all.

[LeftCoast]

51. To be brutally honest, all I know is that an allegation against Clinton has been made

AND she authorized the Canadian government to release any names of people supposedly involved. At this point none have come forward.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I have still not seen a single true denial by the Canadian gov't in terms of the Obama side of this story.

You can't keep denying those facts but that won't change them.

[Yes We Did]

56. Then you need to read harder.

I've seen plenty. And back to the matter at hand, There is no less evidence here then when she tried to politically lynch Obama for this shit. This shit that her campaign started.

If it was good enough sources to be true then, then it is just as true now about her.

Hillary is pathetic. And your defense of her is just sad. I pity you for so easily having the wool pulled over your eyes.

[LeftCoast]

59. Ok. It's obvious by now that you will be providing no evidence. Just attacks.

Have a nice day.

[Yes We Did]

61. My links weren't evidence at all. Yeah. Bye.

[Alter Ego]

28. I got a chuckle out of this.

Isn't spin magical?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

33. Is There A Memo That Offers Hard Evidence The Conversation Actually Took Place? Oh, There Isn't?

Sorry Obama, still on the hook for this one.

[carlotta]

36. The undisputable facts are that:

1. Austan Goolsbee-Obama's senior economic advisor DID meet with officials of the Canadian Embassy and NAFTA was discussed
2. The Obama campaign denied any such meeting
3. Goolsbee concedes that much of the note-taking during the meeting was correct, but says that the comment that Obama's public statements about NAFTA being just "campaign rhetoric" weren't an exact quote.
4. Hillary flatly denies that there were contacts between her campaign and Canadian Officials regarding NAFTA
5. She has given the Candadian government clearance to release the name of any Clinton campaign official they claim contacted them.
6. They have not done so.

End of story.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. Spot On.

[Yes We Did]

40. It's not the end of story. Nice Try. (cursing not edited... beware)

The whole fucking thing was that Obama's STAFFER'S comments about it being "campaign rhetoric"

You guys jumped right on the damned bandwagon then. No FUCKING problem then.

Give me a FUCKING break! That is just PATHETIC!

And now that it turns out that it was Hillary FUCKING Clinton who was responsible for the whole FUCKING incident, it is no big deal. Nothing to see here folks... Move along.

I don't FUCKING think so. She is a FUCKING disgrace to this party, and to this country.

[carlotta]

43. Explain to me

How it's Hillary's fault that the Obama campaign met with the Canadians and then lied about it? I'd really like to hear how that works.

[Yes We Did]

46. That is not the issue, and you don't get to change it. Not this time.

The issue is that this whole international mess was the Clintons' fault. That is the issue in this thread. If you want to try to deflect, go start your own thread. This one is mine. And the issue here is the FACT that Hillary's campaign was the one that told the Canadians all that bullshit.

You jumped on the bandwagon against Obama for this shit, now stop defending Hillary for it. You don't get to change the issue this time.

[LeftCoast]

44. You dodged every substantive argument in your response

Shrieking about Clinton isn't going to convince anyone other than TrueBelievers (tm)

[Yes We Did]

47. You mean telling the turth? Yeah, sure...

Sad, you really are sad. I love how it was so easy for it to be true when it was Obama in the hot seat. Absolutely amazing.

[LeftCoast]

50. I think you're confusing 'truth' with 'truthiness'

BTW, that was another ad hominem attack from you.

[Yes We Did]

52. I don't need to ad any more.

I added enough. Now, if you have something new, from.. oh say... today saying that this isn't true, let me see it. Otherwise, my information is the absolute latest.

Going by your standards, that makes it "truest"

So once again, staying on the point I started with, in this MY thread, defend her. Go ahead. Please.

Tell me how it is perfectly fine for her to have done this. I'm just dieing to hear it.

[LeftCoast]

54. Why would I argue it was fine for her to do this when all you have is an allegation?

:shrug:

[Yes We Did]

57. And Hillary had a whole lot better. Nice.

That didn't stop you guys, and it didn't stop her. My "allegation" is just a good as yours. Only, mine is more recent.

According to your rules, that makes it "more right"

[LeftCoast]

62. Clinton has authorized releasing the names/information

What more clarification would you like?

[Yes We Did]

64. As I said, I'm not reading any more of your garbage.

That right there doesn't tell me shit. Good bye.

[LeftCoast]

65. Come back later when you get a better argument

:hi:

[Yes We Did]

67. One word. Ignore. Bye Bye

[LeftCoast]

68. That was five words, but who's counting?

Don't you get tired of being wrong?

[mckeown1128]

45. Kick and REC N/T

[mmonk]

49. .

:popcorn:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

58. where does it say Obama is clear of this scandal?

[Yes We Did]

63. It's been all over the news. I'm not doing your work for you.

If you are too blind to see what is in front of your face, I cannot help you.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. It doesn't.......but....

Obama should take his lumps for the right hand not knowing what the left hand was doing.

This article isn't about clearing anyone. It's about implicating Clinton in the same scandal.

Mr. Brodie downplayed those concerns.

"Quite a few people heard it," said one source in the room.

"He said someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry."

Government officials did not deny the conversation took place.

If one reads the memo, there is nothing in it that is different from what Obama said in the debate or on the stump.

Here, we have the "grain of salt" comment coming from team Clinton. The exact accusation put forth against Obama that was refuted by the memo itself, in the introduction. As for the unknown "staffer," one would have to think that the Harper govt. is familiar with whether or not a person is connected with a certain campaign. Just as they knew about Goolsbee's affiliation.

[Yes We Did]

69. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

This wan't taken with a grain of salt when it implicted Obama. It cost him two states.

She won two states on a HUGE LIE. I take issue with that. And NOTHING anyone on here says is going to change that.

[bhikkhu]

74. Lie or not, she still lost Texas. So make that one state. n/t

[dchill]

71. I'm coming down with a bad case of...

Hillarhoids!

[redqueen]

72. Ironic, isn't it?

:rofl:

Oh, the humanity!