Staunch Repub says to me in a bar tonight in Pennsylvania...

[blue neen]

He knows I am a registered Democrat and knows that I always vote, so he asks, "So who are you supporting in the primary?"

"I don't know yet. I was an Edwards supporter and haven't made up my mind yet."

My friend, who is also a Democrat spoke up and said, "I think I'm voting for Hillary. I've always liked her."

Staunch Repub replies, "Well, you just do that because we think McCain can beat her in the general election."

For the record, Republicans and Independents cannot vote for Democrats in a primary in Pennsylvania. And also for the record, I haven't made up my mind completely yet but found this to be quite interesting and a little chilling.

No flames, please...just relaying what this man (white male, over 50, lifetime Republican) had to say.

[EmilyAnne]

1. I keep hearing this from people. In fact, I just had a conversation with my next door neighbor

about it. There can't be THAT many Limbaugh listeners. I guess it keeps getting repeated over and over. I wish this shit would stop so people could just vote for who they think would be the best person for the US. Then again, I suppose a part of that is considering who can beat the republicans.

The weird thing is that a few months ago, it seems that the republicans were afraid of Hillary and thought Barack would be easier to beat. They, like so many others including, perhaps, Hillary's campaign, were bowled over by Barack's movement.

Where were you, by the way? I'm in Pittsburgh!
:hi:

[blue neen]

7. Westmoreland County, very close to Pittsburgh.

We hold a Democratic registration edge, but the county has gone red the last few presidential elections.

Interesting that you would say that about Limbaugh because the man who said this LOVES Rush Limbaugh. He bought my boss a book about Ol' Limpballs.

[sybylla]

13. I heard it long before Limbaugh said it

from many people in my Midwestern state. From almost as many people as those who said I'd vote for anyone but Hillary Clinton for President.

I'm not surprised you're hearing it in Pennsylvania.

[Liberal Dose]

47. Pittsburgh ROCKS!!!! nt

:hi:

[crim son]

2. I'm afraid McCain can beat them both.

Both have too many strikes against them and republicans would rather have an insane old man in the WH rather than compromise their "values" i.e. racism, misogyny.

I'm voting for the Dem nominee, whoever that may be. When the time comes, Democrats must present a united front against McCain; it's our only chance.

[democrattotheend]

32. Me too

That's why I was saying earlier that maybe Obama should be VP. I am not sure either of them can beat McCain and if a joint ticket lost Obama could get the nomination next time.

I was a hardcore Deaniac in 2004, but after the election was over, I was glad Dean hadn't been the one to go down, because that would have been a precursor for the party to institute new rules to prevent an insurgent from getting the nomination again.

[krkaufman]

41. "Obama could get the nomination next time"

Opinions will vary. Personally, I don't see why now isn't his time. He has earned it, certainly as much as any other candidate, and he would not be guaranteed anything down the road.

Re: "a precursor for the party to institute new rules to prevent an insurgent from getting the nomination again"

Say... like ultra-frontloading the primaries? It was tried, but the results did not go as expected.

[Trajan]

3. No flames ....

But had I been there, I would have told him I could give a fuck what he thinks about the GE ... It is out of his control ....

[blue neen]

9. IMHO, Staunch Repub wanted to see me lose my cool.

That would have reinforced his Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly fueled notions of those "whining, crazy liburls."

[Trajan]

10. No need to 'lose your cool' ...

When you are taking out the trash ..... Just hold your nose ....

I have two RW brothers, whom I have scoffed at since who knows when .... I laugh when they repeat their RW mantras ... As if I give a fuck ....

Putting them in their place is NOT 'losing your cool' .... it is passionate refutation: You should not let THEM frame the debate: They are wrong ...

[Muttocracy]

4. isn't that anecdote and other like it just confirming what the polls say?

I don't think her strength has ever been electability in the general election. The numbers have been all over the place, but she's never had a confident lead over McCain in head-to-head polls.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

edit to add - Obama's done better against McCain than she has in polls,
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

And her negatives have always been among the highest of any candidate.

[Indiana_Dem]

5. I'm a white female in her 40s and I have one thing to say about that--

I think a lot of white males are going to get a rude awakening whether it's Hillary or Obama or both of them on the ticket!
(I hear this from a lot of Republican white middle-aged males, too. I'm from Indiana, of course) There are a lot more females and other minorities around than middle-aged white males, I think. We just have to put in our vote, that's all.

[blue neen]

8. Staunch Repub also asked me if it was true that Obama was a Muslim.

I set him straight on that one.

He acted like he was uninformed about the subject, but of course, he was not.

[Indiana_Dem]

19. Oh I get that a lot, too.

I'm in a predominantly Republican/red state that plays Rush all day everyday for 3 hours locally, and there are lots of "Christian" people, too. (I'm also Christian, mind you, but I do think for myself) Nothing could convince a strong Christian co-worker of mine that he is not Muslim! She shut up immediately when the rest of us talking started slamming McCain and Bush regarding continuation of the wrong war. That was a good moment for me at work recently. I work in a hospital and am constantly barraged (?) with patients, doctors, and some co-workers who watch nothing but Faux news and slam Hillary and/or any Dem candidates when they talk politics.

All you have to say to counteract any of those types of comments is to ask them if they really want 4 more years of how it has been? No end to the war in Iraq? More than likely a bombing of Iran in the future? They don't usually have much to say after that to me.

[blue neen]

26. I like the way you phrased that, particularly when dealing with these people.

"A continuation of the wrong war."

I will remember that when speaking of McCain.

[Indiana_Dem]

29. Here's another one I'm going to start using:

When I get the old "tax and spend" party line, I'm going to say "at least I'm not for the 'borrow and spend' party" or the "sell and spend" party! lol

[stellanoir]

33. try the "loot and waste party" instead

[CitizenLeft]

34. I'm stealing that, thankyouverymych...

...if you don't mind, LOL! I'll use it next time a Republican says that to me!

[stellanoir]

36. The expression itself sort of suggests that you do so.

It just came to me when my formerly liberal brother gave me the standard "tax and spend" line about Dems.

I thought, "isn't that essentially what all governments do?"

And I then said, "what. . . do you truly prefer loot and waste. . .?"

We've had no accountability whatsoever. I heard on NPR the other day from a Nobel prize winning economist, just how absurd it is that 5-6 year old conflicts are financed solely by "emergency provisions."

Starting with the lavish propaganda sets, the flatbeds of cash delivered to a war zone for bribery, the hiring of exorbitant mercenaries, our crumbling infrastructure, the call for fiscal responsibility only over aid to sick kids, it's all totally nutz.

[CitizenLeft]

38. yep... and that is exactly the argument we must make...

...against McCain. Perfect!

[krkaufman]

40. "loot and lend"?

Hmmm... will have to work on that.

edit: "loot and rend"? back to the drawing board.

[Seabiscuit]

39. "Obama a Muslim"; "McCain can beat Hillary". 'Nuff said. The guy's a brain dead brainwashed moron.

[susankh4]

46. I concur

And I'll go further to say that... we really need BOTH the Clinton and Obama supporters out there to knock 'em on their a**.

A combined ticket is the only way to go.

[msallied]

6. This is turning into American Idol

You know those "vote for the worst" campaigns? It's infiltrated American politics. God help us all...

[HughMoran]

11. This is something we haven't heard here before

I swear, did 10000 people just step off the turnip truck and decide to join DU and assume that everything they hear is an original observation?

[blue neen]

17. I swear, I didn't just step off of any kind of truck transporting any kind of vegetable,

and if you'll kindly check my profile you'll see that I have been on DU a little longer than you have been.

Of course it is not an original observation, but it is unique in the fact that the Pennsylvania primary actually means something this year. That's not something that we experience very often, and we are taking our decisions on who to vote for in said primary very seriously.

[HughMoran]

21. So it's not been posted like 10,000 times that Republicans think Hillary is beatable?

...or was it 100,000 times? Here's a fact - Republicans are liars and they are not your friend.

[blue neen]

25. Yes, of course it has been.

Maybe a million times, but nobody in Pennsylvania paid attention until last night (except Ed Rendell). :)

[HughMoran]

28. lol - I'm happy for you

It's been a while since your vote has mattered - glad you are excited about the primary!

[krkaufman]

43. The dude was just sharing an anecdote.

Take it or leave it.

[goodgd_yall]

12. He's just a parrot.

As time goes on, we'll see that Obama and Hillary's chances against McCain will be just about equal.

[frogcycle]

14. wiht anecdotes like that

I don't know why she doesn't just slit her wrists

[SammyWinstonJack]

52. ...

:spray:

[LisaL]

15. And if you friend said he would vote for Obama, I guess

the McCain supporter would just cry and say no way McCain would beat him in November?
Give me a break.

[FrenchieCat]

16. Evidence....apart from Limbaugh et al.

Ohio Republicans pulling for Clinton to win
If she's Dems' nominee, GOP faithful think she'll unite GOP

One of the worst-kept secrets of the Ohio presidential primary is that Republican Party leaders have a candidate they are rooting for on the Democratic side.

Her name is Hillary Rodham Clinton; and they believe that if she wins the Ohio primary and goes on to become the Democratic nominee, she will be the one who unites their dispirited and divided party and gives them their best chance of keeping the White House this fall.

It is a belief that the Clinton campaign says is wrong; and they will campaign across the state for the next three weeks making the argument that their battle-tested, experienced candidate is the only one who can go toe-to-toe with John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee.

She'll need to do some convincing, fast.

For Clinton, Ohio's March 4 primary is looking more critical.

With his sweep of the "Potomac Primaries" Tuesday night, Barack Obama has won eight primaries and caucuses in a row. Clinton enters the sprint for the two big March 4 states - Ohio and Texas - ahead in the polls, but she desperately needs wins in both states.

'HIGH NEGATIVES'

To hear Republicans tell it, they're rooting for Clinton.

"There is no doubt about it," said John Becker, a Clermont County Republican who represents much of southern Ohio on the Ohio Republican Party Central Committee. "There is nobody who can consolidate and energize the Republican Party like Hillary Clinton. It will get the people out and the money will flow."

Part of it is that Clinton has what pollsters call "high negatives."

A USA Today poll this month showed that as many Americans had an unfavorable view of Clinton - 49 percent - as a favorable view (48 percent). The same poll showed Barack Obama's unfavorable rating at 34 percent, and his favorable rating at 58 percent. The Feb. 8-10 poll of 1,016 adults nationwide has a margin of error of 3 percentage points.

There are many reasons for Clinton's high unfavorable rating - years of attacks by high-profile Republicans, her voting record in the Senate, her vote in 2002 authorizing President Bush to go to war in Iraq - but, in the end, there are many who simply don't like her.

"She acts like she is owed it," said Julia Ward Perdue, of East Walnut Hills, a long-time Democratic activist who said she will vote for Obama. "It's arrogance, like we owe it to her to elect her president."

Becker, who supports Mike Huckabee for the GOP nomination, said that while he believes Clinton could energize GOP voters, he'd rather see Obama win on the Democratic side, "because I want the Clintons to be gone."

"That's how much I dislike them," Becker said. "And there are a lot of Republicans who feel the same."

State Rep. Kevin DeWine, R-Fairborn, soon to become Ohio Republican Party chairman, made no bones about who he wants to win Ohio when he went head-to-head last month with Ohio Democratic Party Chairman Chris Redfern at a Clermont County Chamber of Commerce luncheon in Eastgate.

TV news anchor Jack Atherton, the moderator of the Clermont Chamber debate, asked the Democrat Redfern whom he favored for the Democratic nomination.

Redfern demurred, saying that, as party chairman, he would remain neutral. But DeWine piped up immediately.

"I'm endorsing Hillary," DeWine said, setting off laughter in the largely-Republican crowd.

'IT'S ALL BEEN SAID'

There is some polling evidence that suggests Republicans like DeWine and Becker might be right.

An Associated Press-Ipsos Poll released Monday showed that Obama led McCain with 48 percent to 42 percent nationally, while a McCain-Clinton match-up suggested a virtual dead heat - 46 percent for Clinton, 45 percent for McCain. The poll surveyed 1,029 people nationwide between Feb. 7 and 10, with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.3 percentage points.

Hamilton County Commissioner David Pepper, a Clinton supporter, said that polling showed Clinton would clearly be competitive in a head-to-head match-up with McCain.

"Republicans have been throwing everything they can at Hillary Clinton for years now," Pepper said. "I don't know what more they can say that is going to drive more people away from her. It's all been said. You either like her or you don't." But Obama, Pepper said, has yet to be a target of the Republican "attack machine."

Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland, another high-profile Clinton supporter, agreed.

"There will be venom directed at whoever the Democratic candidate is," Strickland said. "John Kerry, a war hero who was portrayed as someone who somehow didn't bleed enough to earn his medals. I mean, give me a break.

"Presidential politics is always a hard-fought contest in Ohio, and I believe Hillary Clinton is the most-vetted candidate perhaps ever to seek the presidency," Strickland said.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080214/NEWS01/802140346/1056/COL02

[blue neen]

22. Clermont County and Hamilton County in Ohio---that's Mean Jean Schmidt Country.

That just shows you the kind of Republicans who are in THAT area.

I actually travelled out there in July and August of 2005 to work for the Paul Hackett campaign for the special election for OH-02. Hackett almost beat Jean Schmidt in that district, which would have been a major accomplishment. Strangely enough, there was a "humidity problem" with the voting machines that night in a very close contest. Hmm. And I do believe the problem was in Clermont County which was Mean Jean's home county. Hmm, again!

I believe Republicans in that area would do ANYTHING to win.

[seabeyond]

18. i live in the panhandle of texas. i have had way more than one for a while

say that. and some yesterday voted with exactly that in mind. werent shy sharing it.

[UALRBSofL]

51. Look at the voter stats of Tx and Oh

Republicans and Independents split almost down the middle voting for Clinton and Obama. So, what does that tell you?

[Beregond2]

20. Staunch

Well, duh. The Repugs haven't spent the better part of two decades portraying her as the Antichrist to no effect. They know she is the one person that Repugs will rally to defeat.

[AlCzervik]

23. blech, talk about ruining a good beer.

[mmonk]

24. I could have told you that.

My wife, a democrat who hasn't made up her mind feels that Hillary has more of a chance of losing in more close states against republicans than Obama. She just wants to be sure of the issues before she finally decides but is an Obama lean because of that apparent fact in her mind.

[TexanDem]

27. Why do you think Rush and Laura Ingrams told Repubs to vote for Hillary?

Because they KNOW McCain will beat her.

[Indiana_Dem]

30. An honest question then--

then why were they so upset with McCain being the frontrunner?

[TexanDem]

31. they'll have to get over it.

McCain is now their candidate and they'll have to come around. Ingram already has. I heard her on Greta Vansustern tonight. McCain will have to try to make strides toward their hard right segment of the party. But they know as long as the Dem party is in chaos, the Rep party will benefit. It was strategy on their part. If it goes to superdelegates and they choose H when O has majority of delegates and votes -- which it looks like she will not be able to pass him on either of those (according to all the experts who run the numbers), the Dem party will disintegrate. It was strategy on their part. I live in Texas. Believe me, I know some hard core Republicans - and that has been their buzz, sabotaging the Dem primaries. Texas will go Red in November.

[barack the house]

35. It is statistically true..Barack is going to win big if he gets it, but only if...

One.. thing is true Repubs do their homework its how they kept power for so long.

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. That is why she won rural whites overwhelmingly in TX Panhandle and parts of Ohio

Among Repubs and Right-leaning Independents who flocked to the polls
to pull the lever for Hillary (she got what, half the vote among rural
white Republicans in places like Amarillo and Lubbock and Nacadoches?)

[Apollo11]

42. Recent poll shows Hillary would be our strongest candidate against John McCain.

The following is based on the results of Rasmussen Reports rolling polls. The pattern since Feb 5th is very interesting.

Around 3 weeks ago, Obama was beating McCain by up to 8 points. Hillary was losing to McCain by up to 6 points. So it looked like only Obama could beat McCain!

Now, McCain beats Obama by 5 points, but Hillary is almost tied with McCain. So maybe Hillary is the strongest candidate to go up against John McCain? :eyes:

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/general_election_match_up_history

[susankh4]

44. We heard the opposite here in Ohio.

Repubs are nutz that way. They think they shold tell us who to vote for.

[TheDeathadder]

45. No flames

but pass a message on for me to your Republican friend. McCain's got no hope to win. I don't have any chills at all.

[Medusa]

48. She's the GOP choice for the Dem nominee

because they know they can beat her. Vetted my ass. 35 years of experience? In her dreams.

[Iris]

49. Fortunately we live in a town where white males over 50 aren't the only citizens allowed to vote. nt

[theboss]

50. Why do I NEVER have these conversations in bars?

I must be doing something wrong.