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There is a two state meeting going on. Howard Dean not invited.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:30 PM
Original message
There is a two state meeting going on. Howard Dean not invited.
The campaigns not invited. Wonder which two states those are? Three guesses and the first two don't count. They are having a meeting to decide things that are already supposed to decided by party rules.

But then we are learning that one campaign does not recognize party rules are important. However, I was happy to see Obama on a Countdown segment tonight saying his campaign was abiding by DNC rules.

Here is something about the meeting. Sounds pretty important.

From NBC's Mike Viqueira
The Florida and Michigan Democratic congressional delegations will meet together behind closed doors this evening to discuss their respective convention delegate situations.

Rep. Alcee Hastings has organized the confab. He says that it is not the first such gathering, but that the situation "became more complicated after yesterday," and this meeting has been called in reaction to the fact that the race continues. There were those who had hoped that things would be decided so that this issue could be glossed over, he says, but the results from Ohio and Texas "muddied the water."
Hastings, a Clinton supporter, says that the meeting is not expected to result in a definitive decision, but is needed to make sure everyone understands the state of play, both politically and procedurally.

He dismissed the notion that the GOP-controlled Florida legislation would allow Dems a "do-over," and regards the comments attributed today to Gov. Crist with skepticism. Hastings says the cost of such a re-do would be between $18 million and 20 million.

He says that senators from the two states are invited. There will be no reps from the Obama or Clinton campaigns, nor will Howard Dean be there. The meeting is to take place in the Capitol later tonight after votes, perhaps 8ish.


From First Read

Did you happen to notice that Hillary Clinton did not tell the truth in that Countdown segment? I am looking for the transcript to get the exact words...but she said she wanted FL and MI to count, and she portrayed them as victims of the GOP. I was stunned to hear her say that. I want to believe she is not aware of the way it went down here. I do not want to think she lied on purpose. Not when she is running for president.

They were most certainly not victims. The state party and the legislators, plus our congressional delegation were right in on it from the start with the GOP, since 2006. They helped introduce the bill, supported it every step of the way, and they voted for it 115 to 1. Then they sent emails blaming Dean for disenfranchising them.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

This is a direct challenge to Howard Dean's authority at the DNC. There is no doubt of that. There is another lawsuit to be heard on March 17, and if the results don't suit them....they will go on to the Supreme Court.

"We have been impatiently waiting for the Appeals Court to grant us this hearing considering the fact that time is running out if we have to appeal our case to the United States Supreme Court if the Florida Delegation is still shut out of the convention in August at the same time the Supreme Court takes its annual recess" according to Mr. DiMaio. "We are grateful to the Atlanta Justices for granting us the best option of of the three options available. The Court could have denied our appeal and dismissed our case or they could have asked us to mail in our pleadings. Instead they have granted us the opportunity to present oral arguments and the Court has cleared their docket for an entire afternoon, an option that was denied to us at the Tampa District Court. Considering the closeness of the Presidential Election at this point, every delegate vote could make a difference in deciding who the next President could be.


Did anyone notice the snarky attitudes of Keith Olbermann and Chuck Todd tonight as they read the statement from the DNC signed by Dean. They smirked over the word "rules". They giggled. They acted as if rules were foolish things not needed.

Hillary will get her Florida delegates one way or the other. The media loves this story. The media is on her side on this. That makes her the winner of the delegates.




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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. And governors working to get those delegates for Hillary.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Too bad they didn't have
a proper election..their officials' arrogance got in their way.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. I consider any election where people show up and vote, proper.
Even if it's a caucus at least people are exhibiting their will.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
61. it's not proper if people are told beforehand that it doesn't count.
You must admit that this affected the outcome in both places. Especially in Michigan where Obama wasn't even on the ballot.

Revote or nothing.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. They had record turnouts.
Please don't tell me these people didn't want their vote to count. The only reason you'd vote in an election that "didn't count" is if you didn't want it to count.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. there were other issues besides Presidential nominee on the ballots.
The turnout would have been even higher if people had thought Delegates were being awarded.

Quit denying that this damaged the results.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #72
114. Dean Statement on Primaries:
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
80. Did you read what you just wrote
"I consider any election where people show up and vote, proper."

That's got to go high on the list of dumbest things I've read in this forum.

People showed up and voted in Florida in 2000. It's just that, unfortunately, with a heavy dose of nefariousness and stunning incompetence, that election got pummelled and pilfered and perverted.

But I guess that according to you, it was proper.

PLEASE STOP BEING IDIOTIC ABOUT THIS

It is a very Republican thing to be this insulting of our intelligence. CUT IT OUT!

:argh:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
82. really? that's your only criteria?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. Maybe...
it's just as well it is not visible to me.
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jsmirman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #84
85. Trust me, it's just as well
it fits solidly into the "either shockingly dumb or terrifically disingenuous" category.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. So Hillary is counting on a REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR to help her steal the nomination?
Nice.

First a Rovian campaign, now she has a GOP governor shilling for her.

She really should be McCains VP.

She seems to get along better with the Republicans anyway, so why not?
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. LOL...I love the FAKE OUTRAGE!!! "Rovian" "McCain" "Republican"
Your post is a true keeper.:rofl:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Well, actually...did you hear how she praised McCain..
in the same breath that she damned Obama? What do you think of that?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. McCain does have more foreign policy exper. than obama. Your point??
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. She praised McCain and insulted Obama in the same breath.
It is so odd to me how her supporters accept anything she says.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. saying he has less experience is valid. you call it insult. so be it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. That is not what she said.
I'm done. Defend it all.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Read the transcript--then we can talk.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. It has been all over the news. She said his experience was just one speech.
Now I could go and look up the video, find the transcript. But you can do that, too. And since you have been so insulting tonight, I don't think I will help you.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #33
108. the only thing foreign to Hillary
is Bill's - - - -
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:17 AM
Response to Reply #33
112. rodeodance, meet honesty. honesty, here's an introduction to
rodeodance. Not that it's that big a deal to me, but what she said was that she and McCain have the requisite experience to be President and Obama hasn't.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
93. Did you hear how Obama praised Reagan?
And has damned the Bill Clinton presidency often?
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #93
103. Yes, I remember that.
Obama also said that the Republicans were the party of ideas. He later denied it.

I think Obama is having trouble keeping track of all his lies.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. I heard a lawyer today--Hillary's point was that a Bush and Repug leg. set the
rules for the Democratic Party. she thinks they have a case. Not victims in the sense the OP is portraying.-
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Which Bush? The vote was after Jeb was gone.
From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

The Democratic leaders went along and the legislature voted for the primary 115 to 1.

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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. sorry--the new gov--
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. What? The DNC set the rules for the Democratic Party
and the Florida legislature voted to move their date up AGAINST DNC rules. (A Democrat sponsored the legislation and all but 1 member of the legislature voted for the move.)
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. and who prevailed?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. Oh my you seem so proud of the rule-breaking FL dems
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. do you know?
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #34
110. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Putting rules before people. How authoritarian of you.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Nobody - certainly not the Florida voters the Democrats were supposed to be representing
rather than the party leaders who all just happened to have endorsed Hillary Clinton.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #20
109. bullshit, there was only 1 single vote opposing the move
and Dems were praising the vote to high heaven.
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
116. Hillary doesn't know who is Gov of Florida?
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. And Obama is counting on Republicans to help him win the election.
I don't see the difference. :shrug:
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #66
111. Good one, Auntie Bush...
Independents helped him out quite a bit too. More Democrats voted for Hillary.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. The headline on Yahoo! right now is that they're considering a revote. Your gossip...
...and innuendo doesn't do the process any favors whatsoever. The states would have to pay for their own revote, of course they should meet, especially since MI is in the shitter and could use a bit of money from FL for such a revote.
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. madfloridian's account is 100% accurate
Maybe you should read her journal and educate yourself on the story. And don't look to FL for money, FL can't afford it's own revote. DNC has offered to pay for caucuses, but Bill Nelson is adamantly against (gee, I wonder why?). I think what is really pissing off Thurman and Nelson is that their SD status was stripped... Wahhhh!
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
69. Caucuses are undemocratic.
I wouldn't want a caucus either.
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
89. Says you, but what the fuck do you know? -eom
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Beregond2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Meeting
It won't happen. It would mean the end of the Democratic Party. I realize the party means nothing to Hillary, being a Repug at heart, but Dean and a lot of other people who respect the rules and value democracy will never stand for it. And if it DID happen, it would be the end of Hillary's political career. She would stand forever revealed as a person for whom nothing mattered but her own ambition. That wouldn't matter if she were a Repug of course, but she has burned her bridges with them.

I think she is too smart not to know all this, and is just making noises that make her seem concerned with the will of the voters, and as a way to distract Obama from the real issues.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The OP is wrong, they're not meeting to seat delegates, they're meeting to revote!
Please don't listen to the BULLSHIT by the OP.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. You're wrong
Working to enfranchise democrats won't be the end of the Democratic party.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
40. put your hate aside and try to listen to what is being said before you look too foolish.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. I see you are being attacked for your statements. Don't let it bother you.
:hi:
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
60. I don't think she cares...
how she gets there, as long as she gets there. And there are so many people who are just fine with that. Every election reminds me of who we are as a nation. We have no soul.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Truth lands in "muddy water"....again.
Thanks for all you've done on this incredibly simple story. :thumbsup:

For months I've tried to get people to see who and what was the culprit/motivation is here. This has DLC fingerprints all over it. This is the Clinton's REAL firewall, as well as their final slap at Howard Dean.

The saddest thing is, how many smart people ( ? ) refuse to see through the ruse.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Truth is simple, indeed. Until someone needs to change it.
Then it does become muddy.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. I wouldn't thank someone for lies and misinformation.
The link the OP provides is short on details. The AP story here explains what is going on: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble

madfloridian is projecting because they're obsessed with the MI and FL delegates. Many Obama supporters are obsessed with disenfranchising votes that actually did count.

But at this point I think a revote will at least STFU the bloggers and forum posters and flamers, that way we don't have a 2000 redux again where people like mad rush the DNC and riot or something.
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Maybe you should look into this a little deeper.
I'm amazed that you would be more inclined to get your info from a news article, who's writer you have no idea what their motivation is over someone who not only has been hands on and up close to this issue from the beginning, but who shares your ideological position. ( I think )
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I trust the AP over BLOGS. Sorry, the OP is full of gossip and innuendo.
And 2 hours after the meeting supposedly began we actually got news as to what it was about. And it was a revote, not Hillary's people forcing FL and MI from doing a revote!
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
59. We aren't obsessed with disenfranchising anybody.
if you're speeding while driving and a cop stops you and takes your license away, the fault is not another driver on the road.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
94. The votes cannot count if they are inviolate. Period.
No one wanted to disenfranchise the voters other than the Florida Legislature and whoever they colluded with.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. BTW, madfloridian, you might be happy that Hillary is all for the revote.
Not what the ridiculous and uninformed blog/forum based innuendo says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble

This is what we all want, right?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. The point she was making was that it was a Repug gov and legis. making rules for Dem party!!
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 09:48 PM by rodeodance



Did you happen to notice that Hillary Clinton did not tell the truth in that Countdown segment? I am looking for the transcript to get the exact words...but she said she wanted FL and MI to count, and she portrayed them as victims of the GOP. I was stunned to hear her say that. I want to believe she is not aware of the way it went down here. I do not want to think she lied on purpose. Not when she is running for president.

They were most certainly not victims. The state party and the legislators, plus our congressional delegation were right in on it from the start with the GOP, since 2006. They helped introduce the bill, supported it every step of the way, and they voted for it 115 to 1. Then they sent emails blaming Dean for disenfranchising them.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. But it was introduced by a Democrat. They all worked together.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

Here is his picture. His name is Jeremy Ring.

Hillary did not tell the truth. No one forced the Dems at all.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. the legal point though is the repug was a gov
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
91. Sorry, the FL Dems in the legislature not only introduced it, they voted for it overwhelmingly.
Unanimously, even, I believe.

It's their fuck up, they own it, and no manipulating by the Clinton Machine is going to change that.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #91
113. when/how will that get in the media though?
heck, they even report the "winners" when only 55% of the votes have been counted.
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Freida5 Donating Member (649 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. I am so glad Dean wasn't invited. He has really messed up our chances to win
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Why would Dean be invited? He can't deny them a revote. The rules say nothing about a vote...
...after the deadline. And it is after the dealine. They would have to accept those votes. But of course Dean has said this is an option, so it's all good.

Please read this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. You mean it was harder for Hillary and FL to break the rules?
Well, we agree then don't we.

He stood firm and warned both states. He did his job. Most states appreciate it, and only Hillary supporters truly blame him for doing his job.

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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. mad - I saw Clinton's comments on Morning Joe this AM
maybe there's a video of it? :shrug:

Thanks again for keeping track of all this.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I want to find her exact words. I will MSNBC tomorrow.
Usually takes a day to get the transcripts up.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. Thanks for keeping us appraised, mf.
It's almost like dealing with an obstinate 2-year-old who doesn't know what the word "no" means. Dean has his work cut out for him dealing with this nonsense, and I have every confidence in the world in him. Keep up the good work on this continuing saga of a candidate who has already lost but she just doesn't know it yet.

K&R :)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. She is determined to get those delegates. It is to show who is boss.
And I was shocked at Olbermann and Todd making light of rules tonight.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. If she was so determined then why is her campaign open to a do-over?
Please by all means explain to me, I'm completely confused. She's this evil "vote stealing shrill demon," but she's open to a do-over.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_on_el_pr/primary_scramble
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Rules are what separate us from the animals
... although I would say animals are far better creatures overall. :)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Ha just noticed your sig picture. LOL
:hi:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. self delete
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 10:17 PM by rodeodance
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Aren't you getting a little nasty there? I have told truth when others did not.
I think being nasty is a little much, don't you?
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. wrong post in this case--but I have my comments upstream
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. this meme is beyond tired -- party rules over voters is a perversion of democracy.
this attitude is sickening. Florida and Michigan VOTERS were not given a choice in this. these delegations are negotiating a "do-over." it's not the best solution, but if we want to get our voters out in the General Election we damn well better make sure we do right by our people -- not our "rules."

in the most critical election year of our lives, we do not need to bloody our fists hanging on to Howard Dean's and the DNC's ego.

the only issue of substance here is whether or not we value DEMOCRACY. it's up to us to make that work. putting "rules' above people is fine for Republicans. We're better than that.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Oh...so it really IS about Howard Dean. Just like 2004.
SO...that's it. Makes sense. How dare he be chairman and invoke rules. Now it is all falling into place.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
55. Rules don't matter, states don't matter..
voter suppression doesn't matter. The Nevada Lawsuit doesn't matter. Race-baiting doesn't matter. Islamophobia doesn't matter. What matters? And what kind of democracy is this, where no one is held accountable for anything, much less breaking rules?
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Justitia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #55
92. All that matters is a Clinton Legacy. Their personal ambition is boundless. -eom
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #92
107. she must want to double her $54 Million personal fortune
greedy greedy. Meanwhile, she bungled two opportunities to get us Universal Health Care
when Bill was in office.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
57. I say that each of us should make up our own rules.
And no one else's rules count.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #57
73. Me too. Anarchy ftw.
But unfortunately we're stuck with this BS political system with arbitrary democracy.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. You're just being silly now..
the rules were there before and the State officials chose to break them and then 1st whine and then blame Dean and whine some more.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #62
74. Dean, Pelosi, Clinton, *and* Obama were for steating them. Now it seems they're all for a do-over.
I really and truly don't see what the fuss is about, except for vieled innuendo and dishonest commentary.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #43
78. Oh so untrue. They WERE given a say in this.
They didn't fight the rule change, and now you want to change the rules mid-contest.

That's cheating. It's not dissimilar to what b*sh did in 2000.

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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
47. Alcee Hastings is involved? And he is a Clinton supporter?
Oh, perfect.....

Alcee Lamar Hastings (born September 5, 1936) is a U.S. politician, who was an impeached and removed federal judge...

A Representative since 1993 and a Democrat, Hastings was a lawyer and judge of the circuit court of Broward County, Florida, and United States District Court judge for the Southern District of Florida (1979 to 1989), until he was impeached and removed from office for corruption and perjury. He is only the 6th federal judge to be impeached and removed from office in American history.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcee_Hastings

I guess Hillary's latest motto would be, "By hook or by CROOK..."

:eyes:
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #47
63. yes, I remember Alcee Hastings' impeachment,
he's every bit as crooked as our rethugs and a big Clinton supporter.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #63
70. He and Bill Nelson sued Dean.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
48. Self-Delete. Dupe.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 10:20 PM by Hepburn
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
54. Video..she said FL leaders were "pushed" into the primary vote
by a Republican governor and legislature. She said the Democrats had no choice. She said they did not sign on to anything.

All of the above statements are false. All of them. The FL DNC members voted for the rules. Her campaign main guy Ickes is on the rules committee and voted for the rules. Then he did not like them and is now willing to break them.

Her own campaign speaks out against a redo...look at what Harold Ickes said.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1835

"Delegates to Florida and Michigan should be seated at the convention, Ickes said. "Why should Florida not be heard at the convention?" he asked. When asked if those contests should be held again, he replied, "We don't need a re-do. Everybody was on equal footing."

Toward the end of the call, Ickes, growing irritated, said: "We are in the heat of the ups and downs of the race right now."

Now she wants a re do.

Here is the video.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/05/hillary-asks-joe-scarboro_n_90015.html
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. I would be perfectly fine without a re-do, just count as is.
But if that's not gonna happen, then re-do is a good solution.
This way, no one can complain that they didn't get to campaign and that's why they lost.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. To just count as is would make the nominee questionable.
Doesn't anyone here care about rules anymore.

The DNC has always made the rules for the primaries, and the states followed them most of the time.

This is a presidential candidate saying that the DNC led by Governor Dean is not credible.

That is stunning to me.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #54
75. You don't know how politics work if you don't think the democratic reps weren't coerced into doing..
...it. They had a choice, yes, but if they wanted to get x bill passed, they better damn well have went along with the majority.
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HooptieWagon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #75
115. Pretty hard to claim they were coerced
when a Dem introduced the legislation and the bill was passed 115-1...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
79. Clinton lied???
I knew she's been race-baiting and trying to cheat her way out of a defeat, but LIE?

I mean, again?

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
64. Here's Dean 's complete response today.
The one Olbermann showed. Then he and Chuck Todd shared a snicker about the word "rules". Like they were unimportant. I was angered at that.

We're glad to hear that the Governors of Michigan and Florida are willing to lend their weight to help resolve this issue. As we've said all along, we strongly encourage the Michigan and Florida state parties to follow the rules, so today's public overtures are good news. The rules, which were agreed to by the full DNC including representatives from Florida and Michigan over 18 months ago, allow for two options. First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a party process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee, which determines and resolves any outstanding questions about the seating of delegates.We look forward to receiving their proposals should they decide to submit new delegate selection plans and will review those plans at that time. The Democratic Nominee will be determined in accordance with party rules, and out of respect for the presidential campaigns and the states that did not violate party rules, we are not going to change the rules in the middle of the game.

"Through all the speculation, we should also remember the overwhelming enthusiasm and turnout that we have already seen, and respect the voters of the ten states who have yet to have their say.

"As we head towards November, our nominee must have the united support of a strong Democratic Party that's ready to fight and ready to beat John McCain. After seven years of Republican rule, I am confident that we will elect a Democratic president who will fight for America's families in the White House. Now we must hear from the voters in twelve states and territories who have yet to make their voices heard."


http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/dnc_encouraging_florida_and_mi.php
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tnlefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. At least I'm glad that he mentioned the states that didn't
violate party rules. :thumbsup: And thanks again for all of your work! :hi:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. Dean will be fair and allow a revote, almost assuredly.
Either that or he will have to allow a seating.

Which do you think would go over easier?

Dean isn't a dictator, he can't prevent them being seated. And indeed, he can't prevent a revote, either.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. What the fuck are they doing mocking rules (and thus, accountability)?
Have we fallen so far as a nation that FOLLOWING THE RULES AS AGREED UPON is now a joke?

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better tomorrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #81
83. they were mocking
the fact that people think that they can just change the rules in the middle of the game, i.e. Hillary wanting the delegates counted after she agreed to "rules"....

BTW, do you know that she WAS in Florida prior to the Primary because a friend of mine sent me an invite to hear her speak here but because I was supporting Obama I didn't go. I wish now that I had and gotten her photo of her "breaking the rules"....
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
65. I would hate to be the Dem to court FL/MI Dem voters in October if Dems tell them to eff off now.
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LVjinx Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #65
71. Especially with McCain being so popular with independents
The DNC may be headed down a road that will cost whoever the eventual nominee is the general.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #65
86. That is a "hillary" argument. Do what I say or we will lose.
Come on, that is getting old.
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better tomorrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
77. the meeting has adjourned....
according to CNN with BREAKING NEWS around 11:30
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #77
87. must be a revote!
wow
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
88. Um. Dean isn't in charge of state parties - why would he be invited?
I'm all for nationalizing the process but as it stands Dean doesn't have shit to say about state party decisions, and certainly no standing in a governors meeting.

?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Oh good grief. He does have stuff to say about primaries.
Hillary's supporters are well trained in her sarcastic nasty little tones. They are going to try anything to win.

Rules don't matter.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #90
99. I think you misunderstand the structure and the history. Dean is head of the NATIONAL party. The
national party actually has very, very little influence (rule wise) over the state parties. The only real power the nation party has over the state parties is that the charters state that Iowa and NH go first.

This is because (contrary to CW) those were the first and most vocal states to argue that THE VOTERS should decide who the nominee of the party was instead of the party conventions alone, which at that time did not HAVE delegates to represent the voters.

Are you bored yet?

This is YOUR Democracy. This is your democratic process.


Now,

If the state parties want a re-vote and it's actually brought to pass, there is NOTHING in the national party charters that will prevent them all from being seated.

Rules - are everything.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #99
101. I am not very bright, could you explain it all again.
Use little words, so my mind can understand.

From instigator to victim. It was a Dem who introduced the early primary bill in Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1829

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

Think I exaggerate about Florida's attitude? Here's a county chairperson's rant against Dean.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1827

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527



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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. How nice of you to spam on behalf of another, it's kinda cute, but
I don't see where you addressed my points. At all. Did you read my post?
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
95. I appreciate the amount of hard work and dedication to elucidating
on the facts. Big kudos to you madfloridian. :thumbsup:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. Thank you so much,
I am amazed how many have the narrow line of thinking...."i was disinfranhised." They were not.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
96. NBC's Chuck Todd last night: "Howard Dean MUST act. If he wants any sort of legacy as DNC chief"
In other words certain people expect to fire him in December
after he does the right thing and certifies the delegates needed
to put a certain candidate over the top. It's all supposed to be
about his "legacy" now.

as he is sidelined by the machine.

Either if Obama wins and then loses, or if Hillary wins at all.

Two options the Clinton camp seem to be counting on.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #96
98. Todd is used by the insider Dems to send messages.
It is probably a message from Hillary. Todd really is used that way.

Dean's legacy will be fine. Hillary's won't.
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barack the house Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
100. Can't see the local states over rule the DNC really.
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Hoof Hearted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #100
102. xpst. I think you misunderstand the structure and the history. Dean is head of the NATIONAL party
The national party actually has very, very little influence (rule wise) over the state parties. The only real power the national party has over the state parties is that the charter state that Iowa and NH go first.

This is because (contrary to CW) those were the first and most vocal states to argue that THE VOTERS should decide who the nominee of the party was instead of the party conventions alone, which at that time did not HAVE delegates to represent the party constituents.

Are you bored yet?

This is YOUR Democracy. This is your democratic process.


Now,

If the state parties want a re-vote and it's actually brought to pass, there is NOTHING in the national party charters that will prevent them all from being seated.

Rules - are everything.
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. Let me help. A cross-post would be in reply to a different OP. This is a repeat.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
104. You do get overwrought over things---when it involves Hillary.
Why don't you just realize that not everybody thinks as you do? Your posts are always detailed and I can tell you put a great deal of time in putting them together but you cherry-pick your facts and chose just the ones you agree with.

To you, Dean can do no wrong and it's hard for you to see the other side.

Just accept the fact that Hillary and the millions of voters in Michigan and Florida will get their votes counted. Do you want to see Florida voters disenfranchised again? I surely don't.

I never want to see a repeat of 2000 and we as Americans should make sure it doesn't happen again.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #104
118. Bull hockey
But I am learning to detest her now since the FL stuff started. I won't watch her on TV
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ProgressiveEconomist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
117. At stake are net 616,000 popular votes and about net 100 delegates HRC would clain
if inertia holds and a Bush V Gore 2 DNC Rules Commitee or USSC decision goes Hillary's way.

Hillary got 288,000 more popular votes and 38 more delegates than Obama in a no-campaigning Florida early name recognition contest, and had a Soviet-style "landslide" of 328,000 in Michigan, with Obama not even on the ballot!

Those phony votes would be enough to obliterate Obama's hard-won popular-vote margin so far, and most of his pledged delegate margin so far--see the spreadsheet and CNN links at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4918049 .

Should Hillary prevail and steal MI and/or FL in the courts or in Convention committees, IMO then it would be hello Democratic Party chaos, hello President McCain, and hello HRC's 2012 campaign.
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