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I understand why this is being spun as a big win for Hillary. But it wasn't. Here's why.

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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:54 PM
Original message
I understand why this is being spun as a big win for Hillary. But it wasn't. Here's why.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:25 PM by enki23
First, remember the big margins everyone was saying she was going to need to win to stay competitive? She didn't get those. She didn't get anything *close* to those margins. All she can hope, from here on out, is that a) Barack Obama's campaign completely implodes, for some as yet unforeseen reason, or b) she manages to hold on just enough, maybe even make a few gains in spite of the fact that the demographics of many of the remaining contests don't favor her, and overturn what would very probably still be a substantial delegate advantage for Obama via the superdelegates.

To do the second, which is the only one of the options she can plan for, her campaign has to do its damned best to push this idea of "momentum." Momentum, as it is (mostly stupidly) used during political campaigns and other sporting events, is the mostly erroneous idea that recent events count more. Somehow, a touchdown at the beginning of the game is worth less than one near the end. And just like in sporting events, it's mostly bullshit. A major difference is that politics, as a popularity contest, is a perception game. So she has to hope, not necessarily unreasonably, that June, July, or August Democrats will believe February was just too long ago to count.

Anyway, the real problem here is that the math didn't get better for her last night. It got considerably worse. Before last night there just under a thousand pledged delegates left to be allocated by the primaries and caucuses of the remaining states. Approximately 370 delegates (according to Slate's delegate calculator numbers) have been or will be assigned based on yesterday's results, resulting in a net gain of around ten or so delegates for Hillary Clinton. Now 370 / 981 remaining delegates (again, going to Slate's delegate calculator), means that nearly forty percent of the remaining pledged delegates were allocated last night. And she gained ten(ish), against a 150+ pledged delegate lead. At that rate (and these were some of her strongest remaining possibilities, remember) she would expect to gain fewer than 20 more delegates. Obviously it's not quite that simple, but this still should be a pretty good example of just where she's actually sitting. I would argue that in delegate terms, she's considerably worse off than she was before yesterday. Public perception, of course, is another matter. That brings us back to what she really has to do. She has to create the perception that later contests mean more than earlier, and convince the superdelegates that this recency is sufficient justification for overturning what will still almost certainly be a substantial (100+) delegate lead for Barack Obama, barring any massive changes in the voting patterns so far.

In a football analogy, she needed a touchdown ,and probably a two point conversion, to have a reasonable chance to stay in this thing. But even with good field position, and a reasonably good series of downs (marred only a little by a nasty personal foul she wasn't called for) she still had to settle for a field goal. And she wasted over a third of the remaining clock to do it. Now she's gotta keep it as close as she can and hope the refs decide to declare her the winner anyway. In this particular game of football, that could actually happen.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. It was a BIG WIN because no one expected her to pull it out....but she did.
the big mo has shifted.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Do you really think she's got momentum?
So you think she'll win in Mississippi?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. and wyoming?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Speaking of which...
what are the polls looking like?
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. Rasmussen 43-48 Clinton
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. for where?
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smotrage Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. She'll lose Mississippi.
And she'll lose because all of the blacks will vote for Obama.

She'll win Wyoming and Pennsylvania though.
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Maddy McCall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. I have said before, to the nicer people here, that I expect Obama to win Mississippi.
Which is a red state.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. She was ahead in the polls in RI, Texas and Ohio - why is everyone surprised?
She has been counting on winning those three states since day 1 and has stated thats why it wasn't a concern to lose 12 in a row.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. It's amazing, isn't it?
:wtf:
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. Yep, a true come from ahead upset victory
and all this with only most of the Democratic party machine behind her.


Jesus, next thing we know, they'll be calling Kansas an upset winner when they beat the No. 16 seed in the first round.
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likesmountains 52 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
53. that's funny! A come from ahead upset sums it up perfectly..
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. 490
oops now 489
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Everyone expected her to pull it out by 20% margins.
She didn't come close.

Which "no one" are you referring to? Certainly not the media or her own campaign.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Honesty doesn't count, apparently.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. I'll have to post what her campaign staff said they'd do yesterday so you can eat their words
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Maddy, she was expected to take Ohio and Texas a week or so ago.
It's no surprise to anyone she won. The key is the percentage in which she won, which wasn't enough. Obama held his own and almost pulled it off in Texas (popular vote). He did exactly what he needed to do.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. If you use a football analogy, she got a touchdown and a conversion...
But it's the fourth quarter, Obama's got the ball, and she's still down 150 points.

Oh, and don't forget that Texas hasn't finished counting yet.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. That's what really pisses me off...
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:03 PM by TwoSparkles
Why did the media even call Texas for Clinton?

As others have said, the only way for Clinton to win is to convince
the Super delegates that her zero-gain delegate day--was some enormous
victory. The only way that is accomplished is if she can tout OH and TX
NOW, and while she's making the talk show rounds.

Clinton thinks she can take us all down the rabbit hole, and define a zero-sum-gain
in delegates a major upset and a shift in the momentum.

She was ahead in OH and TX by 20+ points three weeks ago. She's been leaking poll
points like a sieve.

But suspend reality, please!! For Hillary!!!

If you didn't detest her for her warmongering, her scandals, her corporatist ties
and her presumed inevitability--her ridiculous venture into fantasy land just might
do it.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. The media wants a contest.
If Obama wins the caucus, boy will the media act like it's a surprise.

Patience is a virtue.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Rarely do so many words have so little to say
Obama's momentum was halted. Obama's campaign was completely ineffective in dealing with he fallout from the NAFTA memo and the 3am ad. People are finally, maybe a little belatedly, realizing that the empty suit will only deliver empty promises.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Momentum doesn't mean anything, that's the point of the OP.
All that counts are the final numbers. Last night was not a good night for Hillary.
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. Momentum is not good?
The Obama sycophants have been going on and on for weeks now about how many states IN A ROW Obama has won and calling it the Big MO.... now they claim it isn't important.

Yeah because Obama got stopped dead in his tracks and the results of Marc 4th made it mathematically impossible for him to win the number of delegates to get the nod without SDs CROSSING over to vote for him.

Oops.. you forgot you are AGAINST SDs crossing over.

Damn... you shoulda thought of that before whining about it.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Irrational thinking... two wrongs don't make a right.
It's post like yours here, completely lacking in any sort of logical thought, and critical thinking, that is destroying DU.

I'm putting you on ignore. Not because I don't like you, but because I feel the quality of your posts degrade my experience here.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. I wasn't one of those people.
.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Here's it more succintly: "Momentum" is mostly bullshit.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:15 PM by enki23
And Hillary hasn't got a prayer without a large proportion of superdelgates being willing to overturn the results of the primaries and caucuses.
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Neither does Obama
He can't win without SDs crossing over now. This is because of the results of yesterday.

Now you know why Obama stopped whining about SDs a few weeks ago.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Even if that were true (I'll reserve judgement for now)
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:12 PM by enki23
it would be much easier to justify "crossing over" to the pledged delegate leader than to justify the reverse.
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Obama can't get enough delegates without the reverse.
That's his biggest problem. He needs crossover SDs to win the nod. But has been whining about it for weeks.

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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. er... what about my post did you not understand?
obama *will be* the pledged delegate leader, without a massive, *massive* change in the current conditions. crossing over *to* the delegate leader (obama) would be easier to justify than crossing over to the one who is *not* the delegate leader. yet, we would have to expect far more delegates to do the second than to do the first. and don't think that wouldn't get media play. it would be a hell of a lot harder for the party to spin the superdelegates overturning a substantial lead in pledged delegates. that's the sort of thing that plays out like an advertisement for the opposition party.
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
54. The part where you and other Obama sycophants stop the hypocrisy
apologize for your double standard.

Obama and his thralls have for weeks and weeks whining about how the SDs should vote the way the primary results indicated. Now they spin it and say... never mind what I said earlier it is a good idea to vote for Obama even though it isn't how our state's primary indicated you should vote. Because after all, it is Obama and he already has more delegates than Clinton.

Your double standard sucks worse than a 60 year old Hoover.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. once again (and christ, again and again...) i never said any such fucking thing
and honestly... buy a thesaurus. "sycophant" doesn't work in that sentence. i don't know obama. i will never meet the guy. i'd have a pretty fucking hard time kissing his ass. seriously, words actually mean things. you also might want to note that there's no such thing as a monolithic "obama supporters" group who all say and believe the same things.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. Ahh, but that is all that the obamaniacs have been trumpeting over the last month
ever since Super Tuesday, really. And now it is "mostly bullshit" because the other candidate has it and he does not?

You culties really crack me up.
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. i am not an "obamaniac," whatever the hell you imagine that to be
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:35 PM by enki23
and i never said anything of the sort. not everyone who wants obama to win says the same things. how fucking hard is that to comprehend? as for "cultie..." well, goodbye.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Just start putting those who lack critical thinking skills on ignore.
It's helped me really enhance the QUALITY of my time here at DU.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. P.S. if you're lucky they'll put you on ignore too, and not darken your doorstep.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:38 PM by CitizenRob
Because they won't be able to see your threads if the totally ignore you.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Then stop saying things that are remarkably stupid
Momentum has been trumpeted as a good thing for a month when it was on on Obama's side. Now it is being dismissed as a bad thing by the very same people, just because the opponent has it.

Hypocrisy defined.
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CitizenRob Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Name calling is not welcome in civil discourse.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:35 PM by CitizenRob
And that is why you are going on my ignore list now.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. You get what you deserve, kiddo.
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hillary did what was required to stay in the race - I guess that could be perceived as momentum?
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InAbLuEsTaTe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
49. She has every right to stay in it with her victories. But the question is . . .
what's in the best interest of the PARTY?! I don't think Hillary gives a shit about anything but herself. That explains her "kitchen sink" mentality.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. The only "win" that came out of yesterday wasnt Clinton's
It was a win for no one but the MSM, who worked overtime to prevent the end of the Democratic race from happening by parroting every questionable "issue" the Clinton campaign raised against Obama in the last week.

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ReverendDeuce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. It was not a big win, it was a squeaker in Texas and Ohio was expected...


Come on folks... This was COMPLETELY expected...

I said it before and I'll say it again: This was not a huge win!

She finagled Texas and got a squeaker victory. Ohio was completely expected. She's gained nothing whatsoever.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. Momentum is a term in physics. It is the product of the mass of the object
and the velocity of the object. Net momentum is conserved in collisions. There is Newton's first law of mechanics in place. I am not sure we can assume Hillary will keep on sliding from victory to victory from now on. Her momentum ends Saturday.
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satireV Donating Member (497 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. You miss the other picture
Obama cannot get enough delegates using the current allocation rules WITHOUT super delegates voting AGAINST their states primary results.

OOPS...... Obamaa and his thralls have been insisting for months now that SDs must vote the way the primary results indicate. But now if that happens Obama doesn't get enough delegates.

Maybe Obama saw this coming and forgot to tell his acolytes, because he himself and his campaign stopped whining about SDs a few weeks ago and knew if he didn't win big this week he was stuck.

Too bad Obama didn't do shit in Florida or Michigan. Those two states are now in play.
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Blaukraut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
23. Thank you! Rec'ed! n/t
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. She needed 57% fo delegates .. right ?
Of the 370 delegates in play last night, HRC needed 57% to catch Obama, thats 211., she got about 52%, 191 delegates, at best 191. IF HRC gets 183 for tuesday, thats about 50%.

A 50/50 delegate split means she doesn't gain an inch on Obama.

SO yeah, last nights results make it worse for HRC.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Obama needs only 46 % of all remaining SD and PD to get the nomination
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 PM by grantcart
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I'm not counting supers.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. No one can win the nomination without them they have to be counted
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Check. IMHO the pledged delegate count/race has been great fun
I mean we had a good field of Democratic candidates at the start, the strongest field in years. Again IMO. I started with Gore, he didnt run, then I supported Edwards, as I bought an Obama button, Summer '07. So I was able to pop that Obama button as soon as I heard from Edwards.

I can hardly remember a time we've had 2 front runners going at it this late in the season. DO I wish it was over... sure, McCain clearly emerged as their front runner super Tuesday, clinched last night. It might be fair to say McCain will remain unscathed, until we democrats have decided on our nominee. If so, McCain can fundraise in a better environment, a slight advantage for MCCain vs the democratic nominee.


Obama had the chance to put the lid on the pledged delegate coffin last night, he didn't do it. OTOH Hillary secured the blocking move to 2025 pledged delegates, IIRC.
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ColdComfort Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. Clearly Obama will maintain delegate lead
It's clear now that Obama will maintain his delegate lead and Clinton will not be able to catch up let alone surpass it, without further damaging the Democratic party's chances of capturing the White House in the fall. The question now is: How badly does the party want to win? Will they continue to allow Clinton to erode those chances, or are they finally willing to lead by standing behind Obama. I'm a registered Republican looking for change. And yet the Democratic party's current fiasco reminds me of why I became a Republican. The DNC needs to lead. The older members of its establishment need to lead. Otherwise, Americans will not only begin to wonder if the DNC deserves a candidate like Barack Obama, but are we really willing to let a bunch such as this remain in power in the legislature.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. A plurality of votes is a win. So is winning when you're expected to lose three out of four...
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:14 PM by onehandle
...and you win three out of four.

We all know the math. It's recanted here every five seconds.

I'm not a Hillary supporter and I don't expect her to win the nomination.

Why are Obama supporters such Bitter winners?
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I'd prefer Barack, but i'm hardly one of his biggest DU backers.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:21 PM by enki23
Anyway, Hillary wasn't actually expected to lose three out of four. She was expected to win Ohio all along. She was expected to win Texas until very, very recently when it became a tossup. And tossup it it was. Everything fell out almost exactly as expected. I'm just here to point out the spin, and why it's being spun that way. Because I don't like this particular spin. I think it's bullshit. That's reason enough.
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RiverStone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
39. Back to football...
Her hail mary pass is to go all out for the FLA and MI delegates - hoping to send the game into overtime.

And the Clinton's are very determined to make this happen. She said last night she "already won FLA" - there is even rumor that if they do not get their way - it could go to court.

If we have an overtime period, who would flip the coin to determine possession?

I'm still confident Obama has a comfortable lead going into the 4th quarter, but I'm concerned that the referee is not entirely objective.

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