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Regardless of who wins it, I hope one thing dies....

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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 09:34 PM
Original message
Regardless of who wins it, I hope one thing dies....
..and that's the notion that these high paid high profile DC lifer consultants and strategists aren worth a single goddamned thing, let alone the obscene amounts of money they're paid for negative results.

Yes, I personally am favoring Obama to win so let's get that out of the way. But the times in this campaign and this primary season that Senator Clinton has done well and gained the most not just electorally and vote-wise but also my own personal sympathy/empathy was when she was allowing herself to drive both what she said and what she did. When it felt like she wasn't being consultant driven. When she was speaking for herself and not letting her strategists speak for her. When she would speak and it was from the heart and seemed sincere I would think to myself "This is why at the outset of this primary I thought I'd be pulling for her." But when Mark Penn or Terry McCaullife or James Carville spoke, or when Senator Clinton would say things that sounded like they were written by any of those people it showed in the results and it speaking for myself it showed viscerally in my reaction and the reaction of many people that I knew. I'm from NJ so I watched closely her campaing in 2000. I watched how it started as what seemed to me to be a poll driven, back room decision maneuver that I feared would strike most as cynical. I watched as she won over not just the easy parts of Manhattan, New York City, etc. but also the rest of the state. I watched as she let people see who she was, rather than who Bill's advisers and consultants and strategists positioned her as. And I watched as she won it.

At it's worst those negative, consultant driven moments that I speak of reminded me of what happened with Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004. How much more evidence do we need to see that a sizable enough chunk of the democratic base and the average voter responds more to seeing someone speak from the heart and speak as a fellow American rather than seeing their surrogates and high paid DC consultants speak for them. I can't explain it but we have the inverse problem I think from what Republicans have. Their media strategists and their insider consultants tend to play the game better than their actual candidates. Their insiders can take the biggest turd of a candidate who left on their own would repulse most voters and turn them into a palatable candidate who can win an election. Conversely our candidates are better, more intelligent, have more experience and heart and passion and prowess than even the best republican, but our consultants and strategists are buffoons who sap them of all of their strengths and powers and mire them in a poll driven bog that turns off far too many voters both in and out of the Democratic base..

If Senator Clinton pulls this out (and I think there's every possibility she might) I hope someone, ANYONE in ANY position of power and authority within the democratic party realizes that it was because SHE did what SHE needed to and SHE said what SHE needed to say and that the times in this primary season where this person of influence, authority, intelligence and power faltered was when she let these other people, so devoid of any kind of connection to average people speak for her and seemingly decide for her what she should do or say.

And let me make it clear I'm under NO, absolutely NO delusion that Obama does not have consultants and strategists and insiders, etc. But they appear at least to me to be more behind the scenes and I think this is how his appeal has seemingly gone from zero to 60 in such a short period of time on the national stage. They appear to be more a cog in the machinery rather than the ones pulling the levers and calling the shots. The times that Senator Clinton has gone toe to toe and won, the times that she has risen above, and the times that she has prevailed both before this primary season and during it has been when she has commanded the stage. When she has SHOWN people what she is made of. When she has taken the reins and commanded the drivers seat. If she wins.....when she wins?.....I hope this is a lesson that's gleaned from this. And maybe I'm wrong, and I'm sure there are plenty of Hillary supporters who will hate me for saying this and that's fine. But after tasting success in the 2006 election by bucking this insider, blue state plus one only mentality, and comparing that to the insider playbooks that cost us 2000 and 2004, I just want to make sure that whoever our more than capable candidate is of these 2 people that this is the lesson that's taken away. I fear that it won't because there's too much money and influence and power at stake, but I can wish.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. I voted for Hillary in our WA Caucus and I really believed
Edited on Sat Mar-01-08 10:40 PM by MadMaddie
she had a chance...but blunder after blunder....her biggest blunder hiring Carville and the other pathetic losers who only have their self interest in mind. In my mind Hillary campaign was in peril from the beginning....We will see what happens on Tuesday.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It's my biggest fear of her winning...
...not as much that she will make some drastic decision or do something bad but that it will lead the insider idiots to believe that they were right all along rather than that she would have won DESPITE the damage they did to her during the primary.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Her WA state coordinator was really an ass also
Tried the heavy-handed "inevitability" bullying on the LD and county chairs, which backfired big time. However, the Clinton campaign contact for my LD was a really personable fellow.
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boston bean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. I do not think Carville is on the Clinton payroll. nt
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. It's more that he's the archetype for that kind of consultant
And he's certainly pro-Clinton
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. She didn't hire Carville
he's not working for her campaign.

But why not just make shit up?
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Hey Monkey Funk I stand corrected Campaign manager no
but political advisor yes....and he and the other advisors and Campaign managers are floundering this late in the game...

James Carville, an adviser to Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., made a candid assessment of Clinton's chances.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/carville-hillar.html
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. The sheer amounts of money are very disturbing ...
and so much of it goes to people who produce NOTHING. Not even results ... (well, OK, positive results for the candidate paying their fees).

Crazy. I can only hope that federal financing of campaigns can clean up some of this mess, and restore some fiscal sanity to the process.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I agree millions and millions of dollars down the drain and
no results.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Honey...we've been saying this for years.
Shrum is one example...it's as if they are Repugnant moles. And I don't understand why HRC has Penn...I think he is definitely working for the repugnants.

I believe you are forgetting something about 2000....evil tricks by Rove that led to the SUPREME COURT CALLING THE ELECTION...I believe a FIRST.

2004 was stolen via Ohio and Ken Blackwell...

And the success you tasted in the '06 Election....don't you have one lousy aftertaste in your mouth now? The Dems did NOTHING with their majority...a total and complete embarrassment as well as a showing of cowardice.

America is insane...and so fucking BACKWARD.

One important thing to keep in mind: HRC is UNsmearable. The repugnants have thrown all the dirt there is at her and she is still standing and fighting! She is showing some spine. BO is going to be smeared from here to the moon. And remember, BO is running his FIRST truly national campaign now. When he ran for Senate, he had no opponent..they had to bring in Keyes from MD. There was no contest.

He is UNKNOWN. Youth might like that...but Americans don't really like Change...just look how they have voted over the past 150 years. HRC has the best chance of beating McC.
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vi5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Yes, I know about 2000
However, part of the reason it was so close I think and will always think was because Gore ran a safe, middle of the road, consultant driven campaign and didn't show his true self until it was too late.

And yes I have that lousy aftertaste in my mouth at what the Dems didn't do. However, for myself I think Hillary represents more of that. She's much more entrenched in DC and the DC mindset and the DC consultant driven culture that tells that even though you have the majority and even though the majority of americans agree with you, that you must pander to the ones that don't.

It can't be both ways. It can't be that she has the most experience and has the most connections and thus is in more of a position than Obama to lead, but that somehow SHE'S going to be the one to break the hold of the Shrums and Penns and McCaullifes and Carvilles.

And just because Hillary has been smeared before doesn't mean that those smears don't still resonate with people. I respect your opinion and your position and it seems well reasoned. I just disagree with it and have a different view on what the solution is.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Bingo
just because Hillary has been smeared before doesn't mean that those smears don't still resonate with people.

There's this bizarre fantasy among some Clinton supporters that a large part of the country doesn't still believe all those attacks against her from the 1990's
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. You'll probably see soon enough...
TPTB want to run against BO...why do you think the MSM has been pushing him?

Thanks for the civil answer....It's so sad to me that after these horrid seven years, it appears that the least tested, least experienced and most smearable will be the nominee. And I will never see a woman president in my life....it's deja vu all over again. Frederick Douglas tells Susan B. that it's the Black man's time...then takes the vote and ridicules her and the other women who worked so hard against slavery and for the vote. It was another 50 years before women got the vote.

Women are over 51% of the population...add children to that and you have a large majority. No one would work as hard for them as HRC. BO doesn't care about women...read Michelle's Vanity Fair interview of Dec. '07. He lets his grandmother live in Africa without running water...and uses her in his response about foreign affairs..."The poor nations will trust me because I have a grandmother living in Africa without running water." Couldn't he maybe send her a few bucks for a well??

Just wait. He'll show his true colors. He'll comprise and concede on Choice...HRC would never do that.

Everyone talks about BO and his community activity after college. You know, after Yale HRC didn't go to work in a Corporate law office....at the age of 27, she started the FIRST Legal Aid Office in the entire state of Arkansas so poor people could get help.

I'm done.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
9. Well thought out post, nice civil thread.
Edited on Sun Mar-02-08 07:40 AM by crispini
I'll kick it! :kick:
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. I agree, if anyone is making a killing on this campaign
it is the consultants. The problem is that as their star rises they can demand more and their ego becomes uncontrolable.

It could be interesting in year from now to see numbers on what Clinton, Obama and McCain each spent on consultants alone. I think the amounts would make most of us **** our pants.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-02-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. first, we shoot the strategists.
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