An example of soft sexism used daily against Senator Clinton

[satireV]

I hear the following phrase a great deal.

"I would vote for a woman but not THAT woman, Hillary Clinton."

To me that is clearly sexist, because if you changed it to this....

"I would vote for a black, just not THAT black, Barack Obama"

Everyone would be up in arms calling it racist.

The first one seems to be accepted by many, but the last one would never be acceptable.

[MadBadger]

1. Neither is sexist or racist

People respond this way when asked if you would vote for a women or a black person. So for example, for a Republican, lets say they would vote for Michael Steele, but not Obama, that sentence (those phrased poorly) would make sense. Same goes for Hillary. Lets say somebody wont vote for anybody who voted for the IWR, but would still vote for a woman. That is the correct response.

[Hieronymus]

13. Of course neither is sexist or racist. Hillary supporters are grasping.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FrenchieCat]

3. I would vote for a woman, but not for Hillary Clinton......

who has to drag her husband along to get the job.

Maybe you can just call Obama a man, which is what he is, if you are going to compare apples to apples.

If you want to say, I would vote for a man, but not that man....I don't see a problem with that, and I'm not sure why you would.

[roguevalley]

71. I am a woman who wanted a woman for a long time in the job but

I won't vote for her because she is not lining up with the things I need. That doesn't make me a sexist for godsake. it makes me a discriminating consumer. Who says I have to vote for her because she's a woman? If Laura Bush ran, would I have to vote for her because she's female? (Or at least that is what they tell me.)

[MadBadger]

4. And what I stated above is the basic position of Susan Sarandon in the primary

She wants to see a female president, just not this female.

[NanceGreggs]

5. There are many women who don't support Hillary ...

... and many blacks who don't support Obama.

That might be because they're NOT looking at race or gender as a basis for their choice.

Crazy stuff, huh?

[MadBadger]

7. You know just like there is a sexism problem on DU, there is also a problem of overclaiming.

People claim everything is either sexist or racist. Take this for example, or I was told that the words manipulative and inauthentic when referring to Hillary is sexist. People take things too far.

[lligrd]

6. You Know What Is Really Sexist?

Pretending that women need protection from every nuance in the friggen English language.

[satireV]

10. This is an example of the kind of soft sexism

It exposes the soft underbelly of genderist or sexist mentality that is rampant. It proposes that women should be allowed to be put down with language. Everyone should be protected from being put down because of their sex or race, but apparently you believe women don't need the same protection accorded others. It wouldn't be allowed for a black, but somehow it is allowed for a woman.

[casus belli]

18. And this post will change all that. n/t

[lligrd]

20. Sorry, I'm An Ardent Feminist Who Refuses To Accept

that I need your defense against every single word that is uttered. Hillary's problems have nothing to do with her sex. They have every thing to do with her asinine votes. (I do hope you don't find the word "asinine" sexist.)

[Kurovski]

24. You ain't the boss 'a me!

as a homo, I'm in charge 'a all y'all. :crazy: :-)

Oh yeeeeeah, boweee.

[Berry Cool]

28. You tell 'em, Kurovski!

Seriously...if Ken Blackwell were in the race, you can bet your last money I would say "I have nothing against having a black president, just not THIS black president," and I don't think a soul here would call me a racist! Instead they'd be saying "You don't want the guy who stole the Ohio vote and wants to make us one nation under God? Right on, Sister!"

ed. to fix typo

[Kurovski]

57. I would vote for Keith Olbermann,

but only if he were a Filipino woman.

[Darth_Kitten]

45. The sexism, dear, is women being held to a completely different standard than men?

Got it now?

[KLee]

8. This is getting old...

It's no wonder we get labled when we pick apart every little word, read into it, and dream up this ludicrous crap.

This feminist will pick the right battle, like Chelsea being "pimped out" Hillary trying to be the "smartest girl in the room".

No wonder we can't make headway in this country with this issue, because there will always be a chorus of a few that dream up this stuff and ruin it for the Chorus of many who have real issues.

It's like Crying Wolf....eventually they stop listening to us.

[Drunken Irishman]

9. I don't see it as that.

I would vote for a Catholic, but not William Donohue.
I would vote for a black, but not Condaliza Rice.
I would vote for a woman, but not Liddy Dole.

[grantcart]

11. I would vote for a black, but not Jesse Jackson

[Kurovski]

27. I would vote for a drunk, but not an Irishman.

ooP! That one don't relly work good.

:hi: That one WOULD be discrimitilizin'

"I would vote for an idiot, but not Kurovski." There now, thas' betta.

[apocalypsehow]

12. Absurd analogy. The polls in Texas & Ohio must be worse for HRC than I thought - this kind of

trotted-out crap usually only comes from the most desperate of partisans on their last, wobbling legs in the absolute last gasp of a losing campaign.

[Mojambo]

14. You're wrong.

As pointed out above, neither statement is sexist or racist.

[casus belli]

15. This is so utterly tired. n/t

[barack the house]

16. Hillary is milking the gender card as her last stand Barack has not played any card.

In as being as blatnat to say hey vote for me I would be the first black guy. Hillary has shamelessly tried to milk this for al she is worth are HRCs credentials not enough. The most criticism of her is her dirty poltiics it's been filthy and that isn't about gender that is what has occured.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. milking involves teats. Ergo SEXIST!

LOL, some of the hillarians here are really past the point of parody. One can only have pity on their pathetic twisted irrational views of the whirled.

[barack the house]

22. You got me there good one.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. . . .

:)

I suppose it was sexist of me simply to raise the issue. OMG! Females have NIPPLES!


hey, wait. So do men!

[casus belli]

26. I've never heard of someone overcoming sexism...

by calling someone a sexist. Maybe I'm just out of the loop, but I'm pretty sure someone would be hard pressed to find a victim overcoming victimization who didn't first refuse to be a victim. Last time I checked, the people overcoming adversity and bigotry were those who were able to look beyond it and trudged forward despite having the odds stacked against them.

[Darth_Kitten]

41. Right, oh, WELCOME to DU, by the way

:eyes:

It's "blatant", as well. And right, she is saying so many nasty things, right. (wasn't born yesterday, dear)

[donheld]

17. Bullshit

"I would vote for a black, just not THAT black, Alan Keyes"




We all said and did it. I make no apologies for it.

[SoCalDem]

21. I choose the yellow shirt today... therefore I hate the green sweater?

Flawed logic..

I could vote for Barbara Boxer.. I would NOT vote for Harold Ford or Condi Rice..

Politicians are first and foremost , INDIVIDUALS..

Would you marry just anyone? Nope you choose a particular person that you happen to love...a "stand-in" of the same sex just won't do..

If you are a woman and you choose to love a man, are you homophobic because you did not choose a woman?

We get to choose.. Some women prefer Obama..it does not mean they are sexist and hate Hillary

some women choose Hillary./.it does not mean they are racist..

Your rationale is straight off the Rove Playbook.,.chapter 7, page 30, subsection II.

[anigbrowl]

23. Boooooring....

[JVS]

29. So where was everyone when Al Sharpton ran?

They were willing to vote for a black man, but not that black man.

BTW calling someone a black sounds racists, and I think that's why your OP was even able to be put together. Black is an adjective, not a noun.

[Mass]

30. Well I am a sexist woman in this case. This is inane and I suspect you know it.

Actually what is sexist is to tell us that we have to vote for Hillary BECAUSE she is a woman. Men have tried to suppress our voices for centuries. We do not need women to do the same.

[Adelante]

31. Silly nt

[Connie_Corleone]

32. This is just stupid.

So, is a person sexist because they don't want to vote for Hillary, but he/she has no problem voting for a different woman for president?

Maybe that person just doesn't like Hillary or doesn't think Hillary could get anything done as President.

[billyoc]

33. "I would vote for a woman but not THAT DLC member, Hillary Clinton."

That work for ya?

[Bright Eyes]

34. Grasping at straws, much?

Soft sexism? Are you just making stuff up now?

[Darth_Kitten]

42. You take sexism personally, do you?

It seems like many of the Obama supporters cannot even begin the grasp of sexism in society. I really feel bitterly sorry for ANY female they may know. To think how easily and callously they are dismissed.

[Bright Eyes]

52. I DO take sexism personally...

If it's actually sexism.

"I would vote for a woman but not THAT woman, Hillary Clinton" is not sexist.

I've seen plenty of sexist comments in the media and on DU, but I hate to say this isn't one of them. Not everyone who won't vote for Senator Clinton is sexist.

Just like how not everyone who won't vote for Obama is automatically a racist.

[Frumious B]

35. I've heard that kind of phrasing bandied about...

...but most of the people I hear using it are Republican leaners who probably won't be voting for either Clinton or Obama in November. My reservations about Clinton that have me supporting Obama over her have nothing to do with her gender. I'm troubled by her lack of contrition over her vote for the Iraq war and I feel that she is, perhaps, a bit out of touch and tone deaf to ordinary people in a way that Obama is decidedly not. To be honest, I also feel like Bill drags her down and that she would be so much stronger without his, erm, "help". Those things said, I would not hesitate to vote for her in November over John McCain if she is is the nominee.

[Independent-Voter]

36. Quit yer bitchin'. HRC's just a horrible candidate, regardless of plumbing

Her name recognition is the ONLY thing that has kept her in this race so long as it is. She'll be done in less than a week in any case.

[Darth_Kitten]

40. Why, because she's smart, articulate, and blows away Obama in ANY debate?

Whatever.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. she pulled a Monica on Obama during the debate? WHEN? I missed that.

[Independent-Voter]

46. Did you even watch the last few debates? Care to explain her horrid management of her campaign?

HRC is simply a horrible candidate by any measure. Again, if she wasn't married to Bill Clinton, she'd no longer be in this race.

[indimuse]

37. "You challenge the status quo and suddenly the claws come out." - Senator Barack Obama

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=27029
Talk about stepping in it. Mr. Obama needs to enter the 21st century.

Lambert over at Corrente caught this earlier.


"I understand that Senator Clinton, periodically when she's feeling down, launches attacks as a way of trying to boost her appeal. ... .." - Senator Barack Obama


Emailing back and forth with friends, it was also mentioned that Norah O'Donnell and Andrea Mitchell took exception of this insulting slap by Mr. Obama. TM.com

reader Grey was quick and transcribed the back and forth:


Nora O'Donnell: "He said, 'I understand when she's down (emphasis hers), that she makes these kinds of attacks. It's getting a little personal."

Andrea Mitchell: "It's getting a little personal and, very frankly, you know how deeply we interpreted every comment to look for some sort of racial motivation before

South Carolina. A lot of people said it was there. But, you know, when you start describing a female (emphasis hers) candidate as being "down" and "striking back." I

don't know, that's a little edgy, don't you think?"

Nora O'Donnell: "Yeah. And I think there's gonna be a lot more comments about that."


So come on, Barack. Tell us how you really feel.

According to him, we women just can't handle the stress of the big time. We get depressed, and lash out, you know, and suddently the claws come out. Remember

that remark? I gave him a pass on it.


"You challenge the status quo and suddenly the claws come out." - Senator Barack Obama


I shouldn't have. Because once is a mistake. Twice, it's a way of thinking about women. A way of demeaning women in power; even saying we're not up to the job.

Seriously, Senator Hillary Clinton is a woman running for president. Not some emotional menopausal diva popping pills because she's depressed she broke a nail.

Where do these guys get off spewing this crap?

But if Obama's looking for people "feeling down," go no further than his own guy blogs who seem to be getting the vapors over the current delegate fight. Pussies...

er... I mean, wimps. If anyone's feeling down, it's the Clinton hating crowd, because they thought she (and her supporters) were simply going to hand over the

nomination because Mr. Obama won Idaho. Strap in, fellas, it's going to get bumpier from here.




Meow Mother F*cker!

[satireV]

60. Thank you... you get it.. you really do.

Let's see if anyone defends him on this comment.

[nutsnberries]

38. i call not-so-soft bullshit here!

If you're so insightful about language and soft -isms, then how come you can't see the difference in your two examples?


"I would vote for a woman but not THAT woman, Hillary Clinton."

"I would vote for a black, just not THAT black, Barack Obama"


I see nothing wrong with the first statement, it is just a statement, but I AM bothered by the second statement, but not because racism is less acceptable than sexism.
IMO --- the first statement refers to Hillary Clinton as a person, since a woman is a person.
The second statement is not equal to it since it refers to Obama as a color and the person part is just supposed to be *understood*. It is much more flameworthy because it reduces him to a color and minimizes his person-ness.

tsk,tsk,tsk, SHAME ON YOU, satireV!!! You should know better!

So, what gives? What are you really trying to do here?

:shrug:

[satireV]

62. Your analysis is flawed

Just as the second statement reduces a person to their color, the first one is much more than just a statement as you gratuitously assert. It also reduces a person to their gender and minimizes their person-ness.

Your addition of a personal attack on me by trying to push your shame on to me, seems out of place.

[nutsnberries]

70. again, i disagree. people don't just blurt out those statements, i was

assuming it was an answer to a question. like...

Why won't you vote for Hillary? Because she's a woman?

and therefore I stand by what I said and still think you're trying to make an arguement.



I won't vote for Hillary because I don't trust her as far as I could throw her. And for the record, I trust John McCain even less.

[Vinca]

39. Someone needs to get a life. Racism is that Latino lady

saying Hispanics won't vote for Obama because he's black. Sexism is someone saying they won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. I've often said I want to vote for a woman, just not Hillary. That's not sexism. That's dislike of Hillary. I would love to vote for Barbara Boxer.

[dansolo]

44. Actually, your example was used regarding Al Sharpton

When Al Sharpton ran in 2004, I heard that quite a lot.

[dailykoff]

47. She brings it up herself every debate: "I embody change,"

etc. And that's really all she's got to campaign on. Her health care plan is less popular than Barack's and that's her only other contribution.

[mopinko]

48. i was proud to vote for gerry ferraro. i didn't get a chance to vote

for pat schroeder. i was proud to vote for carol mosely braun as my senator, although i did not get to vote for her for pres.
i voter for barack obama over alan keyes. i supported jesse jackson, and still have a rainbow coalition button.
i cannot stand hillary clinton, and would not support her for dog catcher.
big deal.

[Occam Bandage]

49. That would be a perfectly acceptable statement if someone said,

"you aren't supporting Obama because he's black!"

(Also, your wording is coarse; change it to "a black man" and "THAT black man.")

[leftynyc]

50. Completely disagree

I would vote for Obama but not for Clarence Thomas is not a racist thing to say.

[Guava Jelly]

51. Sexism can work both ways

"I would vote for a man but not THAT man, Barack Obama."
"I would vote for a white, just not THAT white, Hillary Clinton."
I chose to support Obama over Mrs.Clinton for reasons that didn't evolve race or sex.

[OhioChick]

53. I Seriously Don't Think There is

Anything Wrong with Either Statement.

If I were Running, I Wouldn't be Offended if Anyone Said:
I Would Vote for a Woman, but Not That Woman, Ohiochick."


Big Deal. :shrug:

[backscatter712]

54. Not sexist nor racist.

Maybe the reason why Hillary Clinton's losing is because her campaign sucks...

[Whisp]

55. what bugs me about your argument...

is that you portray women as cookie cutter lookalikes - we have to be 'all the same' if ONE can represent the entire half the human population.

no individuality, no characteristics outside the 'woman' form - nothing else to determine whether Clinton is a good candidate other than her sexuality. forget her qualifiications or lack thereof.

that's is twisted and gross and demeans women more than what you are bellyaching about.

[Kurovski]

56. I know how to solve this...

Would you vote for a transexual? I would! Obama for black female president!

Get cuttin', Barack.

[jmg257]

58. Sounds more like "clintonism" or "obamaism"; someone doesn't like a candidate - too bad! It does

not have to be because of their race OR sex.

[Forkboy]

59. I have no problem with either one. And you cheapen the real sexism and racism.

As all too many are doing here. We already see people shrugging real instances of it off because the charges have been lobbed around more often than the pitches at a father son softball game.

[ORDem]

61. Isn't "soft" a sexist term? n/t

:dem:

[sniffa]

63. Brilliant logic

Poor Hillary - she doesn't deserve the scorn thrown her way, which is all rooted in sexism, whether it be soft or hard.

[anonymous171]

64. Not sexist.

Sexism would imply discrimination based upon sex.
Also, that phrase is often used to respond to HRC supporters who say "SUPPORT HILLARY! WE NEED A WOMAN IN OFFICE!"

[MadHound]

65. Nothing wrong with either statement,

You Hillary supporters are finding sexism when it's not even present. This all started when some of you thought calling Hillary by her first name was sexist, even though that is how she herself prefers to be addressed. This is just more of the same insanity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. So are you saying you're a racist?

If you're not a racist, how come you will not vote for a black man like Barack Obama?

[DuaneBidoux]

67. I think "Hillary" opens herself up somewhat by using her first name instead of "Senator Clinton."

That doesn't justify any kind of sexism but just using your first name instead of last in official settings sets you up to get less respect.

I learned, as a liberal long ago, that it was a big mistake to have my high school students (I teach) call me by my first name. I think this "Hillary" thing is very bad. You don't want to call your commander in chief "Hillary."

[texas_indy]

68. Cool, BIZARRO WORLD calling!! LOL LOL,.. gosh how about some actual logic..... now lets see...

If I try to prove that I'm not a sexist by saying I would vote for a woman, but not THAT woman; then that proves I'm sexist?!?!?!

So, all who would not vote for Obama are RACISTS or SEXIST according to your "LOGIC".

lets see how an anti-Obama would say it, shall we?

I would vote for a black, but not THAT black! <----------- racist
I won't vote for a black man! <---------------- racist
OR
I would vote for a man, but not THAT man! <-------------- sexist


Come on ant-Obama voters!! Which are you? SEXIST or RACISTS?

-----------------

GET 'ER DONE!!


Texas is Obama country! VIVA OBAMA!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fd-MVU4vtU

[LNM]

69. I guess I am racist and sexist.

I would vote for a woman, just not that woman, Condi Rice.

I would vote for a black, just not that black, Condi Rice.

I call bullshit on your statement.