I knew it. As soon as it looked like Obama would win, his ratings would sink like a lead balloon

[mtnsnake]

Already the polls that once favored Obama in head to head matchups vs McCain are now starting to shift in favor of McCain, now that everyone thinks Obama will be the lone survivor of the Democratic Primary race.

By Peter Wallsten, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 27, 2008

WASHINGTON -- As he emerges from a sometimes- bitter primary campaign, presumptive Republican presidential nominee John McCain poses a stiff challenge to either of his potential Democratic opponents in the general election, a new Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg poll has found.

The findings underscore the difficulties ahead for Democrats as they hope to retake the White House during a time of war, with voters giving McCain far higher marks when it comes to experience, fighting terrorism and dealing with the situation in Iraq.

Both Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton have made ending America's involvement in the war a centerpiece of their campaigns. And even though a clear majority of those polled said the war was not worth waging, about half of registered voters said McCain -- a Vietnam vet who has supported the Bush administration's military strategy -- was better able to deal with Iraq.

In head-to-head contests, the poll found, McCain leads Clinton by 6 percentage points (46% to 40%) and Obama by 2 points (44% to 42%).

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-poll27feb27,0,5452138.story


Obama isn't as invincible as you once thought he was, but go ahead and keep underestimating old washed-up John McCain all you want.

People, our work will be cut out for us because we will not have the luxury this time of going up against an imbecile like we did in 2004, and Barack Obama is no John Kerry when it comes to foreign experience and military background in a time of war. Hopefully, if Obama is the nominee, he'll run a flawless campaign to make up for his lack of experience as a Presidential candidate.

It won't be as easy as what some of you are bragging it will be.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[babylonsister]

2. Cry me a river. If Obama had the opportunity to concentrate on

the GE instead of this primary stuff, I imagine the numbers would and will change. Someone needs to let it go already so he can get on with it.

[MNDemNY]

4. This primary stuff?

It's called an election, you guy has not won.

[oasis]

19. Sorry, not every Democrat has been stricken with the "Messiah Virus".

:eyes:

[MNDemNY]

24. Then, you must get "right " with BHO.

We now live in the United States of Obama.

[oasis]

45. Please don't use "H". Obama's running away from that until after the election.

:yoiks:"H"

[MNDemNY]

47. Good thing his middle name is not "Larry".

BLO Or "Robert".

[elixir]

32. Boohoo BS. Poor BO can't focus on the primaries because his skirts getting dirty in debates.

[babylonsister]

35. Ah, but who won the debate, and who has won the last 11 primaries

overwhelmingly? :think:

[elixir]

43. Are you serious? He won the debate?!!! Now you're just fooling. HRC beat him up on NAFTA, foreign

policy and, most important, looking and acting presidential. He looks like he took keopectate and is waiting for it to work.

[babylonsister]

56. Tell that to Cleveland, OHIO:

:nopity::nopity:


http://www.cleveland.com/editorials/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1204113439284890.xml&coll=2


Editorial: Barack Obama showed in debate he has best chance to achieve changes
Wednesday, February 27, 2008

snip//

In purely political terms, Clinton needed somehow to change the momentum of a campaign that is undeniably slipping away from her. She failed.

As he has done repeatedly in recent weeks, Obama consistently deflected her efforts to portray him as callow or somehow indifferent to Democratic Party principles.

Obama disputed the idea that he is all about pretty talk. But he noted, quite effectively and correctly, that to achieve real change, a president must inspire the American people to demand it, must bring together people in a new sense of cooperation and self-interest.

In her final seconds, Clinton urged voters to ask themselves who can actually change the country.

The problem for her is that the question had already been asked and answered.

And once again, Obama had prevailed.

[elixir]

58. An editorial. Hmm, isn't that just like you post, opinion.

[babylonsister]

59. I didn't know you could grade debates; what you post is your

opinion, nothing substantive, but I'm used to that from you.

So provide a link, not from a r/w souce, that will prove Clinton won. A link that's not opinion. Thanks.

[elixir]

66. I didn't say she "won", no one can assume anyone "wins" a debate. The election will tell.

[Political Heretic]

69. LOL - that's all there is about judging debates.

Sorry I just had to interject, because that was hilarious. :rofl:

[mtnsnake]

36. LOL

Isn't it amazing the excuses they come up with? Imagine how they'd be if he was losing. Good gawd

[flyarm]

41. won't happen here in Fla..maybe no one will get the delegates..but McCain is 16% points+ on Obama

and with all the Vets here in Fal..don't count on Obama carrying Fla..in fact many dems i know keep saying ..if it is Obama they will vote McCain..and those are serious dems..Maybe Obama sells to the young ones..but not to the older folk of Fla..they are not fooled here.

Unlike the young kids flocking to Obama..the older folks here in Fla understand health insurance!

[DemzRock]

3. Well, he's gotten much more favorable media coverage than Hillary...

Now that the corporate media is turning their attention on him, well watch out.

But, I do believe he will destroy McBush in the debates.

But that doesn't always matter.

[Levgreee]

5. That is one poll.. truly you must know the error in basing an analysis on a single poll?

[Avalux]

6. Polls against McCain are not relevant for two reasons.

The general election is not decided on popular vote (as we well know). Voter turnout - look at the numbers of Dems compared to Republicans - it's 2:1.

Who will have the momentum and the voters? Obama.

[cyberpj]

9. Unfortunately there's this to consider:

From The Onion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF5Kdm4Eu6w

[Avalux]

16. Unfortunately, there's some truth to that.

If the turnout holds though and Obama can win some red states, they won't be able to steal it.

[cyberpj]

21. Hope you're right. "They" have been able to do anything they want so far... nt

[UALRBSofL]

33. The turnout ratio of 2:1 is deceptive

As we know, but can't prove because we can't get statistics but the ratio reflects many cross-over republican voters whom will vote republican in the general election. The other pertinent statistic is the possibility of a lower republican turnout in the primary because McCain has already been the determined nominee for the republican party. Think what you want about statistics but don't loosely brush them aside and take them for granted because as we have seen in this election cycle polls aren't reliable.

[MNDemNY]

52. Not untypical of primary turnouts.

Not at all.

[Armstead]

7. There's one solution tto that....Hillary could see the writing on the wall and drop out

I'm fairly certain that Hillary's attacks on Obama are helping drive those negatives. McCain has been fairly tame so far.

Also the requirement for Obama and his campaign and supporters to concentrate on Hillary rather than the GOp nominee isn't helping either.

If you're really concerned about the General, it might be a good idea for Hillary to drop out, unite with Obama and start going after the GOP now.

[elixir]

40. Sorry, since HRC is both mathematically and politically "in the race" she won't be leaving.

[UALRBSofL]

46. I don't believe Hillary should drop out with the race this close

And it's difficult for me to think fellow democrats want a candidate to drop out to justify the party line. As a democrat and a progressive I believe everyone should have the opportunity to vote, the candidates shouldn't be pressured out of the race like we are in Communist China or Russia. Again, we have many more primary's to go and we don't know how all the super delegates will go. That said, Hillary stays in the race and democracy wins.

[Armstead]

53. I was commenting on the concerns raised in the OP

Mtnsnake was so worried that time is short to battle the GOP.

Well, if so, one way to have a stronger candidate and party in the General is to stop fighting among ourselves and re-aim the cannons at the GOP.

But I also do think it is past time for her to think beyond her own ambitions. She has had plenty of opportunities to come back and level the race, and she hasn't done it. Obama has had plenty of time to screw up.

Maybe, possibly theoretically Hillary could still do it, but how long does she intend to drag it out, and what damage will be done in the process?

[rodeodance]

68. so stop telling HRC to drop out and let the voter's "count"! This is the primary season!

[poverlay]

8. I've underestimated Obama thus far. I look forward to seeing him deal with McCain. It's going to

be epic. The man is the most Presidential candidate I've ever seen.

[tyne]

15. What everybody

has to remember is that these polls do not include voters who don't have landlines.

[crispini]

23. Actually, they do weight for that nowadays.

Polling is a topic that really interests me. I saw an excellent interview on .... one of those talking head shows... with a pollster that said that they went out and did a specific cellphone-only poll to see what their politics were like. It turns out that the cellphone-only folks really do pretty much track others in their age and demographic groups, so it's possible to compensate by weighting a bit for them in a poll.

Now, whether this particular poll has done that, I don't know, but in general, pollsters are aware of the problem and can compensate.

[totodeinhere]

10. It's going to be a tough campaign no matter who the nominee is.

That's why we had better stop all of this vitriol and come together as a party as soon as possible. I'll bet you that any McCain supporter who reads DU would get a real kick out of all of the intramural squabbling between Obama and Clinton supporters going on at DU. Hardly a day goes by that we don't see a thread from a Clinton supporter saying that they won't vote for Obama in the general, or vice versa from an Obama supporter. This bullshit has got to stop. Our goal should be to stop a third Bush term which is what we will get if McCain get elected. Yes, I am a passionate Obama supporter, but if Clinton pulls off a comeback and gets the nomination you had better believe that I will work my heart out for her. And so should everybody else work for the nominee no matter whom they support now.

[mtnsnake]

25. I couldn't agree more

What a shame that the Obamawhiners (not you) aren't as realistic and level headed as the true Obama supporters like yourself.

[DemGa]

11. And these are pre-swift boat numbers

Hillary would remain stable at the very least, with a likely steady increase -- especially among women.

The first to go from Obama will of course be the independents and "Obamacans" -- under the influence of the coming right-wing media barrage.

[Bluerthanblue]

12. Seems like you are working hard to fulfill your 'prophesy'-

but it will not succeed.


peace~

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. yup the old rope a dope

[back2basics909]

14. One word... outlier...

.. people who jump on these things so soon, know nothing about statistics.

[flpoljunkie]

17. Realclearpolitics: Obama leads McCain by average of 3.5%.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html

John McCain (R) vs. Barack Obama (D)

Poll Date Sample McCain (R) Obama (D) Spread
RCP Average 02/18 to 02/25 - 43.6% 47.1% Obama +3.5%
LA Times/Bloomberg 02/21 - 02/25 RV 44% 42% McCain +2%
AP-Ipsos 02/22 - 02/24 755 RV 41% 51% Obama +10%
USA Today/Gallup 02/21 - 02/24 1653 LV 48% 47% McCain +1%
CBS News/NY Times 02/20 - 02/24 1115 RV 38% 50% Obama +12%]
Research 2000 02/18 - 02/21 802 LV 44% 50% Obama +6%
FOX News 02/19 - 02/20 900 RV 43% 47% Obama +4%
Rasmussen (Tues) 4 Day Tracking 1700 LV 47% 43% McCain +4%

[tabasco]

18. You will dance in glee if McCain is elected to stroke your petty ego.

It must suck to be you.

[Windy]

20. Clinton/McCain numbers are worse so what's your point? n/t

[Emit]

22. Your posts are often a source of negativity on this board n/t

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. And yet McCain beats your candidate by more than he beats Obama in this poll.

Are you admitting that Obama is a better candidate now? Or are you still clinging to the argument that somehow the candidate who has consistently done the worst against Republicans in general polls is the best choice?

[mtnsnake]

28. Accoding to this poll, yes he does beat her by more points than he does Obama. n/t

[meow mix]

29. the polls are gonna be squirrly right now due to "end-primary disarray"

give people some time to cope, theyll come around...

[MNDemNY]

31. I don't think We Dems will like were the people will "come around" to.

[meow mix]

39. after bush? itll be like the sky opening up..

literally.

im confident all the suspicion and fear will go away, a year from now.

[MNDemNY]

44. One "nation security" event before November,

and the scared little sheep will surely run for cover behind "Daddy" McCain.They will flee from BHO as quickly as they drank the Flavor-aid.

[Arkansas Granny]

30. You bring up a very valid point. While the majority of DUers have

given their support to Obama and he has been winning Democratic primaries, it is still going to be a hard battle with the Republicans for the GE if he is the Democratic nominee (which appears likely at this point). I sincerely hope that enough of them have seen the need to change the direction in which our country is headed that they will step across party lines to vote. We will have to work hard to insure an overwhelming Democratic vote (i.e. one that can't be easily tampered with) in order to have a chance to make the changes that need to be made.

[weezie1317]

34. You're missing the point - Obama competes BETTER against McCain than Clinton does. ()

[mtnsnake]

38. WTF good is that if he loses? It makes you happier if he loses to McCain by less than Hillary??

...and I'm the one missing the point? HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[weezie1317]

49. He has better chances of winning than HRC does. Look at all these polls...

Not only is Obama far more likely to beat McCain than Clinton is, in the majority of the polls, he already is leading McCain.

I want the candidate that has the best chance of beating McCain, and that is Obama.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

and

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_clinton-224.html

[Bluebear]

54. Interesting that Edwards, for instance, had to drop out so early.

And Biden, and Richardson...

I wonder how they would have stacked up against McCain? After all, we want the BEST candidate to win, and I don't think the remaining two are that.

[weezie1317]

60. I was big on Richardson this year and Edwards in 2004, but they each have their flaws, too.

[stevietheman]

37. The November election is 2 or 3 political lifetimes away.

Chill.

Obama is competitive with McCain, and you know he'll have a good chance to pull it out.

Obama is far more dynamic than McCain, but he has been bogged down in this primary with the ultimate loser, Hillary, who keeps attacking him relentlessly with nonsense crap.

[NeedleCast]

42. I wish I had a crystal ball too

Hehe, I love the supporters in both camps carrying on about how their choice is the "only one who can win the general election." The retardary of statements like that is just mind-boggling. The better part of a year until the GE and some of you wanna-be Nostradamuses (Nostradamii?) are just fucking determined to go all Fox News 2000 and start calling the general election results. Just shut the fuck up, how 'bout? You don't know who will or can win the GE. I don't know who will or can win the GE. Neither does anyone else. It's all just (mostly) uneducated speculation at this point depending on which pony you're riding. We've hardly scratched the surface of the general campaign and those of you who are acting like you've got it all figured out are just begging to look stupid come November.

[Raffi Ella]

48. Not only that

but if We do offer up this unqualified,inexperienced man the MSM is going to turn it's guns on The Democratic Party itself as they always do.

They'll repeat the Mantra "Democrats just can't get it right.They had this election handed to them on a silver platter and look what they did with it.They can't get it right to save their lives!"

THAT is what we'll be hearing all summer long.Well that and they'll start annihilating Obama the same way they have Hillary all these many past months.

[mtnsnake]

51. You should post that as an OP sometime because it's the cold hard truth

Once Hillary is out of their way (if she loses this thing), the rightwing will turn their focus onto Obama and for the first time, Obama won't have Hillary around to share the vitriol. It will be all coming his way and if we're not prepared for it, it'll be curtains for us again. Judging by all the comments from the Obamaites here, it's obvious that most of them aren't prepared for what's coming and don't seem to care to be.

[formernaderite]

50. NO ONE is underestimating McCain

I doubt if anyone htinks he's washed up either. We will have a formidable fight on our hands regardless of who wins the nomination. Both of our candidates left in the race have personal obstacles to overcome...but you know what? So does McCain. Let the race begin.

[JackORoses]

55. It doesn't just look like Obama will win, he has won.

[GodlessBiker]

57. Man. I sure have a lot of "deleted" and "ignored" posts here. Must be a doozy.

[bvar22]

61. NOW you are worried about "electability"?

Dude, the time to consider electability was BEFORE Dodd, Biden, Richardson, and (especially) Edwards were eliminated.
ALL of them were more electable than Hillary or Obama.

All we can do now is work our asses off for Obama, the next nominee.

[RiverStone]

62. And the good news is?

Rather then whining about maybe losing, why not focus on winning stratigies for the GE?

Politics is a team sport ya know.

And Obama has a damn good chance of kicking McCain's ass - lets see what happens when they begin to address each other directly. Obama has not even hit the ground yet for the GE.

[MNDemNY]

63. He has a better chance of falling on his ass.

[GOTV]

64. Pffff - nothing to be concerned about at this point n/t

[pnwmom]

65. The LA Times writer is twisting the poll results to suit the owner's purposes.

The poll shows Obama and McCain within the 3% margin of error -- which means they are officially TIED.

[onenote]

67. I, for one, have never thought that this election would be a "cakewalk" no matter who we nominate

Whether its HRC or Obama, its going to be a tough, close race. Which is why the "within the family" sniping that is so prevalent here -- and the "if so and so is nominated I'm taking my ball and going home" rhetoric is so dispiriting.

[elixir]

70. K&R

[Pryderi]

71. This is proof that HRC is hurting Obama and should drop out. n/t

[mtnsnake]

72. You got that backwards. With Hillary out of it, it's obvious that Saint Obama's ratings will plummet

when she isn't around to take the brunt of abuse from the other side. It's only human nature, like it or not.

[Pryderi]

73. Obama's fighting BOTH HRC and McCan't.

[Jennicut]

74. C'mon people, get it together. Support the eventual Dem nominee to fight the rethugs

I will vote for Hillary if she is our nominee even tough I voted for Obama in the primary here in CT. We must NEVER allow another Republican near the Whitehouse. At least not this current bunch. Time to get over our differences soom. After Ohio and Texas if it looks like Obama is to be our nominee or vice versa its time to suck it up or risk losing the presidency to another Republican. Furthermore, the LA Times is a notoriously right wing newspaper. Talking about it like its a perfect snapshot of what the race would be verse Obama and McCain is naive. Calling each other cultists and Clintonistas is not going to help either nor is forcing people to bow down to "your" views because you are right. That is Facism. This is a Dem Underground board and this is the United States and we still have freedom of speech (even though Dubya and his cronies clearly want that taken away). I don't thing we all have to agree on every issue and back all the same Democrats. However, don't make the mistake of 2000 when some decided Al Gore just wasn't good enough. Real smart decision there. Rethugs have underminded our freedoms. King George wasted trillions on an unecessary war. He and his cronies like Karl Rove have targeted Dems and others who would stand in their way and put them in jail (Seigelman), uncovered the status as an CIA agent (Valerie Plame) and gone after U.S. attorneys who would not tow the line (U.S. attorney firings). There are countless other terrible "big brother" actions that they have done not to mention illegally stealing an election in 2000 to start this mess. However, if Al Gore had just had everyone's support on the liberal/democratic side he might have been able to overcome the shenanigans in Florida. Maybe. It might have still been stolen. But we should not aid the Rethugs in any way possible. If not we face a continued proactive approach to countless other "hotspots". This simply means we will have a leader in McCain who will put the military whereever we have a flareup or leader we don't like. Think regime change on a multiple level. We will collapse under the weight of overspending. Our debt is already out of control. We are on the brink of recession if not worse. Our ultimate goal should be to stop the Rethugs and support the Dem nominee. Both candidates have overall good views evem if they are not "perfect" . I don't love Hillary. She seems to crave power and throw her finger to the wind too much. Obama is inexperienced and maybe naive against the Rethugs. But that is what we have and we have to support one of them because the alternative is far far worse. They are Dems, they want to reform Healthcare. McCain would do nothing. Supreme Court? Hillary or Obama would get a moderate to liberal in there. Iraq? We won't be there 100 years with either candidate. 4 more years of the Rethugs in the Whitehouse? I don't think I can take it.