The only people to survive the RW Attack machine: Bill & Hillary Clinton.

[jlake]

They deserve a round of applause for that - Period.

Only those who have faced the machine are qualified to judge it.
It looks like Obama is going to get a first hand look at it....

[anonymous171]

1. The people who accidentaly created the RW attack machine:

Bill & Hillary Clinton.

[jlake]

4. Hon, it's been around longer than them.

[eridani]

58. Can you say 1996 Telecommunications Act?

I knew you could!

[Bicoastal]

2. Well by all means, let's elect them, and their children, and their children's children

because no one with the last name of Clinton could ever lose. EVER.

Except perhaps to a Black Freshman Senator with a funny name. :evilgrin:

[jlake]

6. Um, I think you're missing the point.

[Bicoastal]

11. I think you're missing one as well.

TOUCHE!!!!!!!!

[anonymous171]

23. ALL HAIL QUEEN HILLARY!

lol no

[FrenchieCat]

3. Part of your title is right....

the RW Attack machine: Bill & Hillary Clinton.

Also, I agree with a small modifier: Obama has gotten a first hand look at it....

and with an adjustment, Obama has faced the machine and is qualified to judge it.

[jlake]

8. Why don't you start your own post on that...

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

5. Clinton/McCain advisors lobbyist from same group

"Mark Penn's lobbying shop is headed by John McCain's top adviser" »

http://www.obamaiswinning.com/2008/02/mark-penns-lobb.html

[jlake]

12. That doesn't relate to the OP...are you spamming the board?

[Just-plain-Kathy]

66. Hillary supporters don't want to hear the truth, and facts just get in the way. ...n/t

[nightrider767]

7. I'm for Obama but,,,,

Since Hillary is not the front runner, perhaps that is to be expected.

Either way, standby by for a "spirited" political season!

[IndianaGreen]

9. The only one to hold his own against Bill and Hillary Clinton, McCain, and Nader at the same time

The next President of the United States, Barack Obama!

[jlake]

13. Ha! The attack machine hasn't even fired up yet.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

10. Clinton advisor Mark Penn tied to Blackwater

so yes, I suppose that would explain alot.

[jlake]

15. Obama backed by lobbyists and the old Chicago political machine.

NOTHING new about him.

[ingac70]

14. They did, but we didn't...

Only started to climb out of it in Nov. '06.

[jlake]

16. Blaming the victim I see....

[ingac70]

25. Bill left office...

with a %65 approval rating and makes millions speaking. Hillary get millions for writing her memoirs. They are not the victims... we are.

[bluestateguy]

32. Our party still has not fully recovered from the massacre in 1994

We are in the majority now again, finally, but not with those kinds of pre-1994 numbers.

[jlake]

61. And you put the blame squarely and solely on the Clintons?

[Recursion]

126. There were several factors, and the health care proposal was one of them

The biggest culprit, as most of us in the "guns" forum will argue, was the Assault Weapons Ban, which prevented 0 crimes and cost us Congress. But the Clintons were certainly a part of it, particularly the disastrously mismanaged health care proposal.

[benEzra]

140. Yup. I didn't get the impression at the time that the health care thing was all that big a deal

President Clinton laid most of the blame for the Congressional losses on the ill-advised "assault weapon" non-ban.

[bpeale]

91. if someone has to bear the blame for the current situation...

it be the dems in congress/senate who have had their backbones surgically removed by the republicans.

[Swamp Rat]

17. Ted Kennedy n/t

[jlake]

18. Sorry, but I think he was derailed from higher office.....

[Swamp Rat]

26. Senator is nothing to sneeze at, and most of his family was murdered by the CIA/GOP/BushlerSr/Reagan

I'd say he's the #1 survivor of them all.

But yeah, the Clintons have held up very well after YEARS of vicious attacks from the GOP.

[TheDonkey]

19. How did they survive it?

[jlake]

21. Are you serious?

[Bicoastal]

24. I'm starting to note a trend with the Clintons--it's always completely about THEM.

I'm sick of feeling their pain, when I could be voting for someone who doesn't make their mistakes in the FIRST place!

[TeamJordan23]

20. They ran against Bob Dole. Come on... nm

[jlake]

22. Yeah, because Bob Dole was the one after them for 8 years.....get a clue.

[ingac70]

29. What?

Dole left office after his failed Presidential bid. What do you mean "Dole was the one after them for 8 years"?

[jlake]

31. Um, the point is that Dole wasn't the RW attack machine.... he ran one race against Bill...

[Just-plain-Kathy]

67. Neither Bill or Hillary ever ran against a GOP member who had a chance.

Someone please help with the name of the friend of Bush Sr who was known as a "king maker", -you know the guy, -the friend of Bush who made Bill King.

[jlake]

71. Wow. You are kidding - right? Bush was an incumbent in 92...very strong.

[Nedsdag]

125. Bush was a weak incumbent in 1992

Clinton just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

It came down to timing for Clinton since Bradley, Gore, Gephardt, Bentsen, Rockefeller, Cuomo and Jackson decided not to run in 1992 against Bush's so-called "high poll ratings." GHW Bush couldn't sustain his Gulf War popularity and all hell broke loose in regards to the economy.

[jackson_dem]

98. Bill lost twice to a rethug so they obviously had a chance

The first was in his house race in 74' so I guess we can exclude that because he was a political newcomer at the time. He did lose in the 1980 gubernatorial election and then came back to take the governorship back in 1982. 80' and 82' certainly have to count. In 1992 he ran against an incumbent who had 70% approval at the end of 1991. Lazio was very competitive, both in polls and fund-raising, with Hillary until a gaffe in a debate before the election. Clearly the Clintons have faced real rethug competition. It is Obama who has never went up against the rethugs.

[Mooney]

109. Lazio was never competitive

His war chest mostly consisted of money handed over to him by Giuliani when he dropped out of the race. And watching his campaign was like watching a seventh grade school play where the lead keeps forgetting his lines. Granted, he wasn't as much of a complete and utter joke as Alan Keyes, but he was a total lightweight, and since that campaign he's never been heard from again. He was basically a sacrificial lamb.

[jackson_dem]

111. 44-42 isn't competitive? Then what is?

[Mooney]

114. Getting to that spread on your own

...instead of being shoe-horned in at the last minute by Giuliani, and hoping no one will notice.

Lazio's entire campaign "success" was the result of being shoved in at the last minute as Giuliani's understudy. If he had tried to run for the senate seat from the beginning he would have amassed a war chest of about fifty cents. By contrast, if Giuliani had stayed in, he would have beaten Hillary Clinton pretty easily.

[jackson_dem]

116. What difference does it make how he got there? He was competitive and that is the issue

If someone else gives you a fast car for a race and you win does it mean you weren't competitive because you are an average driver who would have lost in a regular car?

[Mooney]

117. Let's put it this way:

Let's say you have a popular two-term Republican president. As his second term draws to a close, his Vice President, who is a disliked, fourth-rate candidate, throws his hat in the ring. He wins the election, but not because of anything he did on his own, and certainly not because of his wonderful personality. He gets elected mainly because of his association with the popular, exiting president.

Now let's imagine this same vice president had never been a member of the popular person's administration, and had tried to run instead on his own qualifications as head of the CIA, and of course his charming personality. This candidate never gets past the primaries. The only way he gets elected president is because of his association with the former president. If he hadn't had that going for him, he would never have received the nomination. He would never even have made it past the primaries.

Rick Lazio ran as a Giuliani substitute, was voted for by what remained of Giuliani's supporters, and campaigned with Giuliani's money. Without those things, he would never have had the opportunity to run for the senate seat, and without those things, his share of the electorate would have been dismal.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

68. Neither Bill or Hillary ever ran against a GOP member who had a chance.

Someone please help with the name of the friend of Bush Sr who was known as a "king maker", -you know the guy, -the friend of Bush who made Bill King.

[AX10]

27. K & R!

They do deserve that!

[ORDem]

28. I don't want to just survive! I want to live!!!! n/t

[jlake]

30. Good goal. We'll see if Obama can even survive.

[JeffR]

38. He seems to be surviving impressively opposing Senator Clinton

He seems to be prospering, actually, at her expense. Go figure.

[jlake]

46. Are you saying she is the RW machine?

[JeffR]

48. I won't repeat what I said

It's sitting there. Read it again and use your pointy little head to figure it out. I have faith in you, thought I'm not sure why.

[jlake]

50. Yeah, but if you think her attacks in any way compare to the RW hate machine you've done lost your

mind.

[JeffR]

55. I don't think that at all

And while I'm not a huge fan of his, it seems to me - based on what I've seen so far - that he's no pushover. We could run Jesus and the hate machine you mention would go into overdrive.

[loveangelc]

33. Bill "survived" because he's still well liked, unlike Hillary whose negatives are higher

than her positives. So it depends on your meaning of "survived." She'll be hit from every side if she were to somehow be the nominee. In a GEt men won't vote for Hillary, so it won't matter in a GE whether she's a ~survivor~ or not, she'll lose.

[Liquorice]

34. I agree. Every other democrat has been almost completely

destroyed by the RW hate machine. Bill Clinton survived and won a second term because he had a very loyal base. That base is still out there and has supported Hillary, but it may not be enough for Hillary to win the primary. I wonder whether Obama can build a loyal enough base to withstand the attacks. The hype surrounding him seems to indicate he can, but when the attacks start to stick some people will be embarrassed to be seen as an Obama supporter, and they will peel off.

[scheming daemons]

35. You can fear them if you want, jlake... I no longer do....

2006 exposed their weak underbelly.

[jlake]

47. Okay. Complacency it is.

[Jamastiene]

36. That's because they both are tough as nails and

they NEVER GIVE UP. =)

[dicknbush]

37. Well up until now..But of course the right wing just let the left wing of the Dem party finish them!

For twenty years the Right winged wackos of this country have been trying to destroy the Clinton family and that included their daughter Chelsea...but they could not do it. The Clintons stood up to the tactics and the hatred of the republican right wing and beat them every time. But the wack job lefties of the Democratic party taking up where the Republicans left off have it seems completed the destruction of the Clinton family at least politically. As a family they are so much stronger then any thing the Republicans put forward as examples of upstandiing family values...and I am sure they can stand up against a lot of Democrats as well starting with that fat bloated fuck Ted Kennedy. The republicans put the knife into Hillary for twenty years but it took the Democratic party to drive it through her heart..Shame on every last one of you traitors!

[JeffR]

42. That's really stupid

just really stupid.

[Thrill]

39. Only one to survive the Clinton Political Attack Machine

Barack Obama

[Muzza]

40. Exactly. A few people need to keep their mouths shut until they have survied the attacks themselves!

[anonymous171]

41. They didn't survive

They just deflected the slime onto the party.

[jlake]

54. Wow. I can barely tolerate this ignorant post.

[rodeodance]

79. Obama's campaign does excellant job of bring its own slime into the party

[CyberPieHole]

43. If Obama is the nominee I hope he gets exactly what he deserves...

For the first time ever, I will just sit back and enjoy the show.

[dailykoff]

44. Yes, the presidency.

That's what we're all hoping! :hi:

[JeffR]

45. Spoken like a good and true Democrat

Nice. Enjoy the show.

[stevietheman]

49. Bill and Hillary have become the Reich Wing Attack Machine. n/t

n/t

[jlake]

52. Oh, I see. David Axlerod is such a nice guy!

Bill & Hilly are the evil ones out to get Pure St. Obama.

[anigbrowl]

59. I don't need Axelrod to tell me that. nt

[Occam Bandage]

51. And yet, ironically, they ended up being destroyed by their own attack machine.

[jlake]

53. Hmmm..... not sure what you're getting at there.

[Occam Bandage]

56. Look. She started this campaign

with a 45% negative-image rating. It doesn't take a genius to see that if she convinces 6% of the electorate to dislike her, then she had mathematically eliminated herself from winning. She went hard negative. Going hard negative when you already have a high unfavorable image is absolute suicide; all Obama had to do to win was just stand off and let her self-destruct.

[jlake]

57. But what does that have to do with turning the RW against herself?

[Occam Bandage]

60. We have a pronoun-ambiguity problem.

Ironically, Bill and Hillary Clinton were destroyed by the attack machine of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

[jlake]

63. Gotcha. You had to get all fancy and shit to explain it to me.

But I do disagree that that is what has harmed Hillary's campaign.

[monomach]

62. How do you figure they survived it?

They both have national negative ratings, especially Hillary. Hers are enormous. A large section of this country flat-out hates her.

[jlake]

64. Hmmm... Both have net positive numbers.....and Hillary is a US Senator and Bill has made $30Million

giving speeches since he left the WH...I'd say they're alive and kicking....thriving if you will.

[LadyVT]

65. Good job! (hang in there)

[jackson_dem]

99. Clinton had the highest approval rating of any post-WW2 president

65% when you leave office is the highest you can realistically go during a time of peace. If he is elected anyone want to bet St. Obama won't leave with 65% or higher?

[Skidmore]

69. They bought the RW attack machine and it is running their campaign.

[jlake]

70. Yeah. Right.

[HeraldSquare212]

72. It depends on what the meaning of 'survive' is.

They're stated policy positions haven't survived well.

[jlake]

74. Oh, I see....and Barack opposing those policy positions is helpful how?

[HeraldSquare212]

81. Huh?

[jlake]

82. Universal healthcare for starters.

[HeraldSquare212]

88. After seeing Bill cave on DOMA and welfare reform, and Hillary's vote on TWR,

I question her ability to enact the policies she supports. So, they've survived, but often by simply selling out their own policies. That's what what she's for doesn't really interest me - likely as not, what she's for is a lot different than what she will successfully fight for.

[stillcool]

73. survived...

I would rather they had actually succeeded....or maybe they did?

The right wing current of the Democratic party, characterized by its neoliberal economic policies, support of Israel, desire to increase defense spending, and links to heavy donors and fundraisers.

Believes that "left-wing" positions are not politically viable. Describes itself as "moderate and pro-growth". Probably responsible for erosion of the Democratic Party's historical labor and minority base due to support of treaties like NAFTA, lack of support for affirmative action and poverty programs, and their siphoning away of campaign funds from minority groups.

At the national level, the movement was founded by the Democratic Leadership Council (501c4 educational non-profit, founded 1984) and includes the House New Democrat Coalition (founded 1997), the Senate New Democrat Coalition (founded 2000), the New Democrat Network PAC (founded 1996), the misnamed Progressive Policy Institute (501c4 think tank, "Bill Clinton's idea mill", founded 1989), and the umbrella funding group The Third Way Foundation (501c3 non-profit, founded 1996).

Since coming to power within the Democratic Party with Bill Clinton's presidency, the New Democrats/DLC have worked towards "essentially the same purpose as the Christian Coalition... to pull a broad political party dramatically to the right" according to John Nichols of The Progressive.

DLC operatives actively worked to sabotage Howard Dean's candidacy for the US Presidency in 2004, claiming that the "far-left" Democrat was wrong to attack George W. Bush's tax cuts and national security policies.

Corporate contributors to the DLC and New Democratic Network include Bank One, Citigroup, Dow Chemical, DuPont, General Electric, Health Insurance Corporation of America, Merrill Lynch, Microsoft, Philip Morris, RJR Nabisco, Chevron, Prudential Foundation, Amoco Foundation, AT&T, Morgan Stanley, Occidental Petroleum, Raytheon, and many other Fortune 500 companies.

The New Democrat Movement is sometimes referred to as the Dixiecrat movement due to the DLC's origination in the southern states, their desire to get rid of affirmative action, and their membership's overwhelming whiteness.

" shift the primary focus from racism, the traditional enemy without, to self-defeating patterns of behavior " --Chuck Robb, 2nd DLC Chairman, Governor & Senator of the Great State of Virginia, White Man, 1986.

"I'm from the democratic wing of the Democrat Party" --Paul Wellstone, progressive Democrat, criticizing the New Democrat Movement.

"Democrats for the Leadership Class" --Jesse Jackson, progressive black Democrat, describing the DLC.

[jlake]

75. Not everyone is as far left as Jesse Jackson.

[stillcool]

78. not everyone is as far right..

as the DLC.

[jlake]

115. Most are at parity or to the right of the DLC....fact

[stillcool]

134. Fact? Can you name one?

[blm]

76. Because the PARTY DEFENDED THEM. Clintons never backed up other Dems being attacked

because they had groomed the party machine since 1993 to serve and defend only them - so all Dem spokespeople at DNC and on television were schooled in defending Clintons and knew little about any other Dem.

[jlake]

80. They sure are all powerful in your mind.

[blm]

87. When he was president and for a few years after Clintons DID RUN THE PARTY.

Any president does IF they want to control the POLITICAL outcomes for their party.

[rodeodance]

77. "applause for that - Period."---thanks.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

83. Yup. Other than the Impeachment, the RW hardly laid a glove on him...

:crazy:

[jlake]

85. Um, I think you missed the point.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

94. Um, I don't think I did...

The Clintons were a punching bag for the RW for eight years, and we lost Congress control of Congress for the fist time in 40 years under their watch.

Do I want a candidate who's going to spend next year getting slobber-knockered by the Right Wing or a candidate who has a chance to build a working coalition?

Don't answer that -- it's a trick question.

[jlake]

96. The point is that you are blaming the victim. The RW Hate machine will go after ANY Democrat -

and most won't fare as well as the Clintons did. In fact, none have thus far.

[jackson_dem]

101. They think Obama is immune to that. He will charm the rethugs into disbanding the GOP

Democrats have been attacked going all the way back to Jefferson but St. Obama the Messiah will not be? Give me a break...This whole thing is a big fairy tale...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

108. Thanks for telling me what I think...

But you're a little bit off. I was really thinking, "What a flaming asshole that guy is. What kind of incredible moron would post something so stunningly idiotic. Who but a serious shit-for-brains would assume that anybody in their right mind would think that Obama wouldn't be attacked by the Republicans. I mean, you'd have to be dumber than a sack of doorknobs to think something like that."

That's what I was thinking.

Like I said, you were just a little bit off.

[jackson_dem]

112. Who said anything about you?

"They"=Axlerod's "movement for change".

Has Barack ever explained how he is going to create a working coalition? He sure hasn't done it in the senate on anything controversial...

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

107. Really?

1992
Clinton - 44,909,806 votes

1996
Clinton - 47,400,124 votes

2000
Gore - 50,003,926 votes

2004
Kerry - 59,028,011 votes

And Gore managed to win a majority of both the popular vote and the electoral vote.

If you're suggesting that Barak Obama is not qualified to run for President because his wife has never run for President before, then I guess you have a point.

An incredibly stupid point, but a point nonetheless.

[khaos]

84. there is no such thing..

it's just another way to distract the peasants while criminals on both sides conspire together to sell us out

[jlake]

86. LOL! Good one.

[jackson_dem]

102. Damning photos!!!!!

Here are two more:





St. Obama with McCain and his mentor.

[khaos]

120. 2 factions of one corporate party..

very sad

[Mz Pip]

89. Did they really survive?

I wouldn't call being Impeached and having your reputation trashed to the point that half the country dislikes you as a positive thing.

[jlake]

90. You don't think the Republicans will try to impeach *any* Dem - I sure do.

[Mz Pip]

92. Then it hardly matters

who the Dem is does it?

[jlake]

93. Someone needs to read the OP again. The point is the Clintons are the only ones to survive.

[Mz Pip]

95. I read it.

I'm glad you can predict the future as to who and only who can withstand the GOP attack machine. Sadly, I do not have psychic abilities.

[ProSense]

97. Bill was impeached and Hillary is running one of the worst campaigns ever, blaming the media.

The Clintons survived the 90s on the sympathy of the American people, who while they sided with the Clintons, were outraged by their overt divisiveness and covert triangulating.

They brought that same thinking to this campaign: divide and conquer using Rovian/right wing tactics.

"The only people to survive the RW Attack machine: Bill & Hillary Clinton."

That sums it up: it's always about the Clintons!

[jackson_dem]

103. He was impeached. Was he removed?

That means he survived the rethug coup attempt...

[ProSense]

105. Impeachment = success! n/t

[jackson_dem]

113. Impeachment=the rethugs losing ground in Congress in 1998 and 2000

They actually lost the senate because of impeachment + Jeffords' switch after 2000. They also lost the 2000 presidential election. Impeachment was a failure for the rethugs. Only a selection and 9/11 resurrected the party's fortunes until 2006.

[AtomicKitten]

100. The point is that Americans are tired of the bickering and bullshit and aren't interested

in a front row seat to another four years of it. Thanks anyway.

[jlake]

118. Yeah, but Republicans won't change because Obama wishes so.

[AtomicKitten]

122. The dynamics change once the Clintons are taken out of the equation.

[jlake]

132. Oh God! You actually think it was about *them* and not *generic Democrat*.....someone

hasn't learned from history.

[AtomicKitten]

139. I was paying attention during the 1990s.

GOP hatred for all things Clinic is pandemic. Obama simply does not invoke anywhere in the same ballpark of rage as the Clintons' longstanding feud with the Republicans. Your preconceived notion about the status quo is apparently impervious to actual events and facts.

[Taverner]

104. True

That's why I also don't mind a Clinton Presidency again

They too can fight

[tekisui]

106. Bill did.

Hillary is nowhere near the politician he was.

[DemzRock]

110. I agree with OP. Gore failed. Kerry failed....

If Obama goes against them, I hope pretty words are all he needs.

But then again, he seems to have a pretty good attack machine himself.

So if Obama wins the nomination, I will support him against McBush full force (except that I trust NO politician, especially one with so little track record).

[WilliamPitt]

119. 2000 to now is called "surviving"?

I'd call it "aftermath." Not dogging the Clintons, but your definition of "survive" is a trifle dubious.

[jlake]

121. Hillary won in 2000. Gore lost because he shunned the Clintons.

Thank you for proving my point.

[WilliamPitt]

123. Mm. OK.

What did we win, exactly? By "we," I mean, like, the people and stuff.

[jlake]

129. You should know better.

[WilliamPitt]

133. I do.

I want to see if you do.

No rush.

[Recursion]

124. They "survived" by surrendering

Welfare "reform"

Surrendering the health care plan

Surrendering on gays in the military and coming up instead with the first legal protocol for the removal of a servicemember simply for being homosexual (you actually couldn't do that before DADT; homosexual sex was illegal under the UCMJ but being homosexual was not forbidden)

Losing Congress

Getting impeached

So alienating half of the country that the sitting Vice President couldn't have the sitting President campaign for him

They did not "survive", they succumbed. Both of them.

Yes, she has been "vetted". She has been "vetted" and failed.

[butterfly77]

127. He is probably going through it now...

he is getting a lot of attacks that we don't even know about.

[jlake]

144. Care to explain that odd comment?

[Dawgs]

128. HELLO!!! They created the RW attack machine.

They also gave 12 years of a Republican congress and at least 4 years of Bush.

[jlake]

130. So the Clintons were around 200 years ago? Damn they are evil!

[Tom Rinaldo]

131. NO. They threatened the Republicans by breaking their seeming lock on the Presidency

They did that by appearing to have reasonable proposals to the American people. They actually balenced the budget without a single Republican vote in favor after the Republicans bragged about how they were going to do it in their Contract to America. And that is when the RW attack machine was born to hunt and hound them down. Because the Clinton's DID appeal to the center - and that worried the Right Wing very much.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

135. "Only those who have faced the machine are qualified to judge it."

:rofl:

Dramatic much?

[jlake]

136. No. Obama has no business talking smack about how Hillary is harder on him than

the Republicans will be.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

137. Link to "smack."

Please.

[DemGa]

138. And St. Obama used it against Hillary; a Brilliant though treacherous strategy....nt

[jlake]

141. Yeah, talk about siding with the GOP. "they don't like you so we shouldn't either"

[Laelth]

142. Neither survived, I am sorry to say.

Yes, Bill got elected President twice. Hillary got elected too, but after 15 years of constant right-wing smears and lies, the Clinton brand is finished. Hillary's negatives speak volumes about the damage that Fox propaganda and hate radio can do in that amount of time. Sorry, but Obama has the teflon now. The Clintons do not.

:dem:

-Laelth

[jlake]

143. Wow.