Factcheck.org on CNN just said the BO campaign lied in both Ohio mailers

[Freida5]

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_mailings_false.html

what kind of campaign idiot would put a student newspapers quote evaluating a health plan. my observation not factcheck

[liberalnurse]

1. Yes! Shame on You Obama!

Damn-it anyway! You just keep decieving Obama.

Ohio need not be bled out and mislead anymore. We have suffered so!

Obama, your campaign shall sink and you soon will find humility.

[PretzelWarrior]

30. you sound kind of whiney

[rodeodance]

41. any you sound like SOUR GRAPES

[liberalnurse]

43. No, I'm angry as hell . You should be here with me in Ohio.

The people are suffering.

[Berry Cool]

57. I'm with you in Ohio. I know the people are suffering.

They just don't all seem to agree with you as to who can best help relieve the suffering.

[liberalnurse]

60. As a nurse who works with a Community access Clinic....

and the Emergency Room, I see the misery of every age group. I can barely talk about it, what I see that is..... All a direct result of the republican carpetbaggers causing excessive urban decay.

Hillary has the best action plan and sincere empathy to work with all of us in Ohio to renew our lives.

[rodeodance]

67. Thanks for you real life story. adds validity.

[OzarkDem]

2. Good to hear validation

it was pretty obvious.

[rodeodance]

58. but so much damage have been done already

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

3. You are not telling the truth

I saw the same segment, and factcheck guy didn't say "lied"

He cited the factual problem with the NAFTA mailer and criticized a similar Hillary NAFTA mailer.

I support Hillary and thought he should have been much harder on the healthcare mailer, but he wasn't.

And he certainly didn't call either one a "lie"

[bigtree]

13. I call the fact that the mailer included the debunked statement that she had called it a 'boon'

makes that statement in the mailer a LIE

[Window]

26. Desperate.

Unreal

[rodeodance]

102. "We find that a [BO} mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleading

[thunder rising]

4. I think you inflated the the analysis. Hillary, how is all this spin and lie working for you?

[totodeinhere]

5. CNN's anti Obama bias is palpable.

[rodeodance]

11. Rovian tactic: KILL THE MESSENGER

[avrdream]

29. Yep.

Strange seeing those tactics around here. I thought DU was better than that.

This OP should generate a good discussion......"should" being the key word.

[totodeinhere]

52. It's not a Rovian tactic if the criticism is valid

Sometimes media outlets are biased. For instance, would you also call it a Rovian tactic to call Fox News biased? Everyone knows that Fox News is a right wing propaganda machine, and there is nothing wrong with saying so. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with calling out CNN on their bias. For instance, that racist Lou Dobbs was shamelessly shilling for Clinton earlier today.

[rodeodance]

56. up date yourself about the media bias on the candidates.

[totodeinhere]

59. You didn't answer my question.

Is it a Rovian tactic to call Fox News biased? And if it is not, why is it a Rovian tactic to call out other media outlets when they are also biased? Have you seen Dobbs lately? He is shamelessly biased against Obama.

You accused me of using Rovian tactics. If you are going to make such an outlandish charge against me, then you should be prepared to back it up.

[rodeodance]

75. too bad

[JAbuchan08]

95. yeah, for you.

[MonkeyFunk]

93. Any and all criticism of Obama is called "Rovian" here

people don't know what the word means.

[dchill]

98. Any and all criticism of Clinton is called "Rovian" here

too. And I know what it means. I'm certain that you know which candidate brought it up first. That in itself is "Rovian."

[ncteechur]

19. Not sure if it is anti-Obama but CNN sure is pro-Hillary.

[rodeodance]

37. ha ha---it is really the silly season to her you say that

[Whisp]

66. in full swing for Hillary today, for sure!

sure can tell they got the Big Memo today.

Lou Dobbs smugly giggling about Obama's pic of the day and making fun of people who dress funny in other countries and beneath it is for a President or rep of the U.S. to dress up so silly. The big asshole. Like a business suit should be the standard cultural wear around the globe. The big asshole.

John Roberts, the big asshole, saying they are both attacking each other - showing the clips of Hillary's latest embarassments but nothing exists of Obama acting so shamefully so no vid on That. but Roberts the big asshole making it sound as if Obama has lowered himself to Hillary's level nonetheless.

Candy Crowley inserting a snark in the 'someone said' jackal fashion about it could have been Obama's camp that sent out that pic today. No sources, no nothing, just her own big asshole idea to throw that in.

[anigbrowl]

33. You think so? I haven't been bothered by any.

I mostly watch CNN for TV news, I think they have been pretty fair to all candidates. Sure, every so often I hear some remark about Obama I don't like, but then the same goes for every candidate.

My favorite CNN moment so far this primary season, from a question to (Clinton supporter) Paul Begala:

Anderson Cooper: Paul, what do you think is the biggest problem facing Hillary Clinton?
Paul Begala: Well, she keeps losing.

[ingac70]

6. Thanks for that link...

it has some very helpful info..

"In closing, we'd just note that Clinton is no innocent on sending out misleading mailers. We reported on Feb. 6 that a mailing by her campaign contained a "big distortion" of Obama's position on Social Security taxes and falsely implied that he had "no plan" to address mortgage foreclosures. It also attacked him for voting for a "Dick Cheney" energy bill that gave "huge tax breaks to oil companies," when in fact the bill gave a net tax increase to oil companies."

[bigtree]

7. Obama claimed in his response yesterday that they hadn't been debunked

That should get buried amidst all of the Clinton hate, here and on the networks.

[OzarkDem]

10. They certainly have

hope this comes up in the debate tomorrow night.

[rodeodance]

27. BO was so swave yesterday calling a NEWS conferences about this.

[dchill]

8. Get over yourself and stop grasping at straws!

About Obama's mailer:

We find that a mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleading. One that attacks her health care plan we have previously described as straining the facts, though not exactly "false."

About Clinton's mailer:

We've also previously criticized Clinton for sending a mailer that twisted Obama's words and gave a false picture of his proposals on Social Security, home foreclosures and energy.

[bigtree]

17. sounds like Bush explaining away his own lies.

[dchill]

23. Not sure whether you agree w/me or not...

Maybe you should go into politics!

[madmom]

96. so a half lie is better than a whole lie? A lie is a lie is a lie...get over yourself, he's not

perfect no one is!

[dchill]

97. "A lie is a lie is a lie..."

I have always known that. I'm not the one who thinks it's OK. They both misrepresent the other's positions. They are both politicians. I'm over it, and I'm over myself. It's the ones like you who can't see that the sauce for the goose is equal to the sauce for the gander. Do yourself a favor and read it again:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_mailings_false.html

She did it, too, and she did it first, and she did it more often. The OP suggests that is not the case, yet posts a link that disproves itself.

Have a NICE day.

[madmom]

99. "It's the ones like you who can't see ...

that the sauce for the goose is equal to the sauce for the gander. Do yourself a favor and read it again:"

You really don't know "ones like me" I've been saying it about both for a very long time, just get tired of people thinking Obama is the second coming, he is far from perfect, so is Clinton, and it's about time we all realize it and move on to fighting the repugs.

"She did it, too, and she did it first, and she did it more often." since when does two wrongs make a right?

I am having a very nice day!

[dchill]

100. Then I guess I don't see...

why you're so angry with me!

[madmom]

106. Not angry just trying to see what the differnce between "not exactly false" and

"false" are. If one is said to be stretching the truth is that not the same as lying? Some think a little white lie is ok, but it still a lie no matter how little. I repeat since when do two wrongs make a right?

[dchill]

108. The territory between "false" and "not exactly false"...

is where practically the whole universe of politics exists. So, the "difference" between the two is vast. If you want ethical purity, you are really, really looking in the wrong place. In my opinion, without getting into situational ethics or even a discussion of strict morality, small lies are not as bad as big lies. I believe that this is why we have 30-day jail sentences and the death penalty.

It is not a question of two wrongs making a right. The math isn't that simple - it never is. I don't want to start a flame war, but I assure you that it is my judgment that Barack is not as bad as Hillary, and that I'm open to having that view changed, but I'd really hate to find that Barack is worse, because then I'd have a hard time even voting in November. Two wrongs DON'T make a right, but often two small wrongs are much less that one larger one. It's the real world and, sadly, no one is perfect.

[rodeodance]

9. HO HOO. BO on the TV said they were 'factual" ummm,,,,,, I like factcheck.

[Windy]

25. check Factcheck.org on HIllary's OHIO mailer on trade...

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/clinton_edits_the_truth.html

[sandnsea]

12. factcheck sucks, they ignore her own book

2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. “Creating a free trade zone in North America—the largest free trade zone in the world—would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once . I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances.”

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a “Victory” For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, “Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn’t hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill’s successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA.”

Oh, and yes she does force people to buy insurance and I cannot for the life of me figure out why she's denying it. People know what the word mandate means.

[rodeodance]

18. bitter much?

[Blue-Jay]

21. So those quotes from her book are wrong?

[rodeodance]

35. immaterial

[Blue-Jay]

39. Oh. That makes sense.

So....the quotes are accurate, but anyone who DARES post them is bitter?

Gotcha! :thumbsup:

[rodeodance]

46. sure does. glad you agree

[Blue-Jay]

49. LOL!

[rodeodance]

14. REC

[zulchzulu]

15. Did you actually read the article?

FactCheck didn't say Obama "lied"...

As for Hillary's mailers, I got some of her crap in Wisconsin where FactCheck clearly points out how she completely distorted Obama's record.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/youve_got_mailers.html

[bigtree]

20. 'misleading' and 'straining the facts' is lying

Is that something Obama means to change in his administration? Stretching the definition of a lie?

[zulchzulu]

22. Did you read the link about Hillary's mailers?

Talk about LIES...

[dchill]

28. If he DID read it...

he's not about to admit it.

[bigtree]

34. divert, distract

dissemble . . . everything but account for you own candidate's actions.

[rodeodance]

40. are they wittiy---using tactics straight out of Rove's playbook!

[anigbrowl]

42. Factcheck accused both camps of doing so.

"In closing, we'd just note that Clinton is no innocent on sending out misleading mailers. We reported on Feb. 6 that a mailing by her campaign contained a "big distortion" of Obama's position on Social Security taxes and falsely implied that he had "no plan" to address mortgage foreclosures. It also attacked him for voting for a "Dick Cheney" energy bill that gave "huge tax breaks to oil companies," when in fact the bill gave a net tax increase to oil companies."

From the link in the OP.

[rodeodance]

38. We find that a mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleading

We find that a mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleading. One that attacks her health care plan we have previously described as straining the facts, though not exactly "false."

[zach]

16. I don't get it...

If you're going to take the effort to post about something like this, at least be honest about what was said. He clearly didn't say anything about either of the campaigns outright 'lying'. What the OP conveniently forgets to mention is that he said the HRC campaign was just as misleading in her mailers as well; even pointing out that her new mailers being sent out as recently as today, were just as misleading as his.

Being dishonest about something as trivial as what the 'factcheck guy' has to say, seems pretty pointless.

[scheming daemons]

24. The paragraph you are conveniently ignoring from FactCheck......

In closing, we'd just note that Clinton is no innocent on sending out misleading mailers. We reported on Feb. 6 that a mailing by her campaign contained a "big distortion" of Obama's position on Social Security taxes and falsely implied that he had "no plan" to address mortgage foreclosures. It also attacked him for voting for a "Dick Cheney" energy bill that gave "huge tax breaks to oil companies," when in fact the bill gave a net tax increase to oil companies.


Hypocrite.

[Windy]

31. Frieda always "triagulates" or "spins" for her candidate. She's left out pertinent facts inthe past

Nothing new for her.

[rodeodance]

45. " windy always "triagulates" or "spins" for her/his candidate"

[gerrilea]

32. Don't you love how people now say "Fact Check" does mean anything

When it says something they don't like, like the truth...I accept the truth that the HRC camp has "spun" things, but the Obama supporters can't deal with the truth when their "savior" isn't perfect...wake up guys and gals...this is all POLITICS...anything is fair...don't forget the last two elections...

[rodeodance]

48. the word HYPOCRITE comes to mind

[gerrilea]

55. AMEN!

[AGirl]

89. No way, Obama NEVER LIED!!!

[Honeycombe8]

36. You are mischaracterizing what factcheck says in its article.

All it said, basically, was that the mailer shouldn't have put the word "boon" in quotes.

As for the second, factcheck said the mailer about healthcare is not false. It just "strains" the facts by not explaining everything...the same as Clinton's mailers about Obama's positions have done.

[rodeodance]

47. Well --uess BO on TV yesterday should have said he "strained" the facts vs saying 'accurate"

[rodeodance]

44. LETS HAVE SOME RECS--TAKE IT TO THE FRONT PAGE PLEASE

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

53. "goddamnit I'm so sick of the likes of youse"---What is a "youse"?

YOU are the liar!
Posted by Whisp


goddamnit I'm so sick of the likes of youse.

[anigbrowl]

68. A plural form of you used in some parts of the US, most widely in New York.

As any fule kno.

[rodeodance]

72. I am not from NY but thank you. and I am not a" fule" as you claim. Shame on you.

As any fule kno.

[avrdream]

54. Did you go to the link?

Not lying.

[rodeodance]

51. " We leave it to our readers to decide whether they should be "outraged" or not" OUTRAGED!!

[ProSense]

61. You're spinning: "We frankly find Clinton's past position on NAFTA to be ambivalent." n/t

[ProSense]

63. ""lacks context" and stretches the facts, but we can't agree that it is "false" as Clinton says."

The mailers are not false.

[rodeodance]

65. get into the NOW buddy: "We find that a mailer criticizing her position on trade is indeed misleadin

[rodeodance]

62. HURRAY FOR HILLARY--

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rodeodance]

69. get your facts straight before you spout off-OP was talking of Factck. Your post

brought in another article.





Topic subject YOU'RE THE LIAR
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4769303#4770110
4770110, YOU'RE THE LIAR
Posted by Stephanie on Mon Feb-25-08 08:19 PM

They said no such thing.



Freida5 Donating Member (383 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-25-08 07:33 PM
Original message
Factcheck.org on CNN just said the BO campaign lied in both Ohio mailers

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_mailings_...

what kind of campaign idiot would put a student newspapers quote evaluating a health plan. my observation not factcheck

[Stephanie]

71. WRONG - it's the same article

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_mailings_false.html

[rodeodance]

74. the factck form OP does not have the DU link which lead to the open left article -this

article is in addition to one provided for OP.






http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4137

Here's another direct quote from Hillary Clinton on NAFTA from a speech she gave to the DLC in 2002:

[Marie26]

70. Did CNN report Factcheck's findings? nt

[LadyVT]

73. THANK YOU for that link.

[DUyellow]

76. Show me the quote that says he lied in both mailers

[rodeodance]

77. 'misleading' and 'straining the facts' is lying'--from post #20 Enough said.

[DUyellow]

80. LOL, He doesn't need to campaign for HRC, that is her job to tell people about her plan.

far from lying

[rodeodance]

78. kick

[rodeodance]

79. kicky

[Johnny__Motown]

81. Good luck with that, see ya after the debate. (the word "Boon" is the only problem)

And can easily be countered with all the other quotes of her praising NAFTA.


As for the Mandate part of the other mailer, it is accurate. Maybe not fully explained but it is her job to explain her mandate, not his.


Good luck, enjoy your last week of the Clinton era while you can.

[ProSense]

82. It's only a problem because everyone, including Factcheck isn't representing it

factually.

Here is the mailer (PDF)

The word "boon" is in quotes because it was picked up directly from a Newsday quote, which is attributed in the mailer.



Hillary's desperate moment, with video

[rinsd]

104. And Newsday has stated they should not have used quote marks.

Newsday did not have a direct quote indicating she thought it was good for the economy at that time. Also, for that matter, Clinton's campaign did not contact Newsday to question the item after it appeared in print.

Obama's use of the citation in this way does seem misleading. The quotation marks make it look as if Hillary said "boon." It's an example of the kind of slim reeds campaigns use to try to win an office.

That said, Newsday should have been clearer.

http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/sunday/news/ny-lijani245590001feb24,0,5616373.story

[ArkySue]

83. K & R

:kick:

[Hepburn]

84. It's "newspaper's"....not...

..."newspapers."

:eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

85. "In closing, we'd just note that Clinton is no innocent on sending out misleading mailers."

It's a draw.

[MethuenProgressive]

86. The Obama supporters don't care.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

87. Do you care?

In closing, we'd just note that Clinton is no innocent on sending out misleading mailers. We reported on Feb. 6 that a mailing by her campaign contained a "big distortion" of Obama's position on Social Security taxes and falsely implied that he had "no plan" to address mortgage foreclosures. It also attacked him for voting for a "Dick Cheney" energy bill that gave "huge tax breaks to oil companies," when in fact the bill gave a net tax increase to oil companies.

The false outrage from both sides is pathetic.

[anamandujano]

92. This is important, lying, distortion, hurting core issues.

When I told my friend about it, she just screamed (and I mean screamed) "HILLARY WON'T RELEASE HER TAXES."

[ProSense]

88. Your OP is completely fabricated. Factcheck debunked Hillary's claims

link

[CyberPieHole]

90. Obama: Hope you can't rely on!

:kick: and rec

[Occam Bandage]

91. We said the mailer "lacks context" and stretches the facts, but we can't agree that it is "false."

[BootinUp]

94. Hillary was right to counter attack against these false accusations. nt

[rodeodance]

101. yes, she was. yes she was----and I am so glad she did.

[babsbunny]

103. We can't trust anything we read or hear, even on DU!

[AtomicKitten]

105. Some Dems are using the GOP defense of pulling at a thread.

Apparently she didn't say the word "boon." That's the ONLY discrepancy, but it is a fact that she is on the record as saying NAFTA is swell.

The healthcare flier was dead-on accurate. She does have mandates.

That's the point. That's the issue. One simply cannot dismiss with an iota of credibility both fliers as being false by virtue of one word. But I fully expect them to keep screaming "lies" to try to drown out the truth.

No worries. The silly season will be over soon.

[my3boyz]

107. Oh please..it is not Obama's responsiblity to put every

aspect of his plan in a mailer. Hillary sent out mailers talking about 15 million being left out without explaining his plan.