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Would America be better off if Bill Clinton had not been elected President in 1992?

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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:49 PM
Original message
Poll question: Would America be better off if Bill Clinton had not been elected President in 1992?
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 08:17 PM by onehandle
Now that we've gotten a few votes this was just a barometer of how deep the Clinton hate is around here.

I believe some here have poor memories.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. Primary or GE?
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. No one is "elected" in a primary. I updated the poll anyway to say "President" nt
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Well then obviously no.
What's your point?
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cd3dem Donating Member (927 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
23. has DU turned into a republican site? perhaps it should read if "Reagan" had not been elected!
this is why the democrats lose elections, b/c democrats defecate on each other!
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. What's the alternative?
Bill losing to Al Gore in the primary, or GHWB in the general?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. other
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 07:51 PM by fascisthunter
will never know
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush 41 would have invaded Iraq
The war would have happened much sooner, and the internet would not be around for dissent...
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. "Bush 41 would have invaded Iraq"
He had already done that in his initial term.

The Gulf War ring any bells?

And unlike his idiot son he knew better than to think he could occupy the country afterwards.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. They launched an incursion into Iraq
They drove Iraqi military out of Kuwait.

They did not take Baghdad.

True, they continued to carpet bomb Iraq for a number of years after, but they did not invade it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Bush 41 was heading for impeachment after Dec 1992 BCCI report's release and he KNEW it.
Plus, IranContra was going to trial. A sitting president couldn't pardon his operatives right before the trial especially when he was set to go under oath and testify.
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. America would have been better off if Bill had kept it in his pants
He might have been able to accomplish something during his final two years in office, and we would have had President Gore for the past 8 years.
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NC_Nurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I agree with that for sure.
Otherwise, no, he was better than Poppy Bush.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. Poll needs third option
"LOL"

:7
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. Really Hard To Say [nt]
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. Dunno about that. Look what happened to America because Strom Thurmond wasn't elected in 1948. nt
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. What would 41 have done
that Clinton didn't, or vice versa?

:shrug:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Two big things that immediately come to mind
1) Continue failed rethug economics and hence preventing the Clinton era of peace and prosperity
2) Appoint more Clarence Thomases to the federal judiciary and giving conservatives a majority on the Supreme Court (no Clinton, no Breyer and Ginsburg) that would among other things have overturned Roe v. Wade and affirmative action.
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. The country? No.
The Democratic Party, yes it would have been better off.

Clinton brought conservative ideals into our Party, and that blurred the lines between us and the GOP to the point that the GOP could move on to running campaigns based on social issues (gay marriage, abortions, religion) instead of real issues relating to improving our country's economic future because they wasnt much difference in the ideals of government between the two Party's.

Both Party's became seperate wings of the same corporate owned bird.

Despite the right wing BS, liberalism had been destroyed in our Party the day Bill won the Presidency.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think I'll boycott
your little piece of shit poll.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. What's your fucking
point?
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. No. But Tsongas or Brown would've been better presidents, I think.
Clinton was decent but either of those two would have been better.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Tsongas died in 1997 (1998?) of the same cancer he had in 1992, so he would
not have been a good choice in retrospect. (I supported him in 1992)
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kwenu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. He was elected. What's the point????
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BigAnth Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, but that doesn't mean that we should elect his wife in 2008
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. In one VERY IMPORTANT WAY - Yes. Bush1 would've been impeached after Dec 1992 BCCI report
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 08:11 PM by blm
And add to that the trials that were set to start on IranContra - well, Bush couldn't have gotten away with those pardons as sitting president who was going to have to go under oath himself.

So, IranContra, Iraqgate, and BCCI would have gotten their fuller vetting - Bush would've been impeached and a Dem would most ASSUREDLY win in 1996.

Congress would never have turned over to GOP in Jan 1995 and....

A Bush2 would have been an IMPOSSIBILITY.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's possible because Dems may have retained control of Congress
and the Senate. If we had had control of the Congress and Senate with Bush in office we might not have the Supreme Court we now have.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
27. What is the point of this poll? It's sexist
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aquarius dawning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
28. Ross Perot? Bob Dole? Bill made some judgement errors but I think most Americans were better off
with the Big Dawg than they would have been with either of those two. Perot's position on NAFTA has been proven correct; however, in all fairness to Bill Clinton, it was GWB that made that legislation particularly harmful to Americans with his reprioritization agenda. That's my opinion at least.
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Why Syzygy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. He isn't running again.
This has nothing to do with the current election. I'll never forget the ditch he gave Gore.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. I believe some people have REALLY POOR MEMORIES and don't realize how weak and exposed BushInc
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 02:45 PM by blm
was when that BCCI report came out and IranContra trials were set to begin in early 1993. Most of BushInc should have been jailed by the end of 1994, not strengthening and planning their return in 2000.



The day any one of you can claim that deep-sixing all the outstanding matters in so many of those illegal operations turned out GOOD for this country will be an interesting day, indeed.

These are only the outstanding matters in BCCI at the time....

APPENDICES

Matters For Further Investigation

There have been a number of matters which the Subcommittee has received some information on, but has not been able to investigate adequately, due such factors as lack of resources, lack of time, documents being withheld by foreign governments, and limited evidentiary sources or witnesses. Some of the main areas which deserve further investigation include:

1. The extent of BCCI's involvement in Pakistan's nuclear program. As set forth in the chapter on BCCI in foreign countries, there is good reason to conclude that BCCI did finance Pakistan's nuclear program through the BCCI Foundation in Pakistan, as well as through BCCI-Canada in the Parvez case. However, details on BCCI's involvement remain unavailable. Further investigation is needed to understand the extent to which BCCI and Pakistan were able to evade U.S. and international nuclear non-proliferation regimes to acquire nuclear technologies.

2. BCCI's manipulation of commodities and securities markets in Europe and Canada. The Subcommittee has received information that remains not fully substantiated that BCCI defrauded investors, as well as some major U.S. and European financial firms, through manipulating commodities and securities markets, especially in Canada, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg. This alleged fraud requires further investigation in those countries.

3. BCCI's activities in India, including its relationship with the business empire of the Hinduja family. The Subcommittee has not had access to BCCI records regarding India. The substantial lending by BCCI to the Indian industrialist family, the Hindujas, reported in press accounts, deserves further scrutiny, as do the press reports concerning alleged kick-backs and bribes to Indian officials.

4. BCCI's relationships with convicted Iraqi arms dealer Sarkis Soghanalian, Syrian drug trafficker, terrorist, and arms trafficker Monzer Al-Kassar, and other major arms dealers. Sarkenalian was a principal seller of arms to Iraq. Monzer Al-Kassar has been implicated in terrorist bombings in connection with terrorist organizations such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Other arms dealers, including some who provided machine guns and trained Medellin cartel death squads, also used BCCI. Tracing their assets through the bank would likely lead to important information concerning international terrorist and arms trafficker networks.

5. The use of BCCI by central figures in arms sales to Iran during the 1980's. The late Cyrus Hashemi, a key figure in allegations concerning an alleged deal involving the return of U.S. hostages from Iran in 1980, banked at BCCI London. His records have been withheld from disclosure to the Subcommittee by a British judge. Their release might aid in reaching judgments concerning Hashemi's activities in 1980, with the CIA under President Carter and allegedly with William Casey.

6. BCCI's activities with the Central Bank of Syria and with the Foreign Trade Mission of the Soviet Union in London. BCCI was used by both the Syrian and Soviet governments in the period in which each was involved in supporting activities hostile to the United States. Obtaining the records of those financial transactions would be critical to understanding what the Soviet Union under Brezhnev, Chernenko, and Andropov was doing in the West; and might document the nature and extent of Syria's support for international terrorism.

7. BCCI's involvement with foreign intelligence agencies. A British source has told the Bank of England and British investigators that BCCI was used by numerous foreign intelligence agencies in the United Kingdom. The British intelligence service, the MI-5, has sealed documents from BCCI's records in the UK which could shed light on this allegation.

8. The financial dealings of BCCI directors with Charles Keating and several Keating affiliates and front-companies, including the possibility that BCCI related entities may have laundered funds for Keating to move them outside the United States. The Subcommittee found numerous connections among Keating and BCCI-related persons and entities, such as BCCI director Alfred Hartman; CenTrust chief David Paul and CenTrust itself; Capcom front-man Lawrence Romrell; BCCI shipping affiliate, the Gokal group and the Gokal family; and possibly Ghaith Pharaon. The ties between BCCI and Keating's financial empire require further investigation.

9. BCCI's financing of commodities and other business dealings of international criminal financier Marc Rich. Marc Rich remains the most important figure in the international commodities markets, and remains a fugitive from the United States following his indictment on securities fraud. BCCI lending to Rich in the 1980's amounted to tens of millions of dollars. Moreover, Rich's commodities firms were used by BCCI in connection with BCCI's involving in U.S. guarantee programs through the Department of Agriculture. The nature and extent of Rich's relationship with BCCI requires further investigation.

10. The nature, extent and meaning of the ownership of shares of other U.S. financial institutions by Middle Eastern political figures. Political figures and members of the ruling family of various Middle Eastern countries have very substantial investments in the United States, in some cases, owning substantial shares of major U.S. banks. Given BCCI's routine use of nominees from the Middle East, and the pervasive practice of using nominees within the Middle East, further investigation may be warranted of Middle Eastern ownership of domestic U.S. financial institutions.

11. The nature, extent, and meaning of real estate and financial investments in the United States by major shareholders of BCCI. BCCI's shareholders and front-men have made substantial investments in real estate throughout the United States, owning major office buildings in such key cities as New York and Washington, D.C. Given BCCI's pervasiveness criminality, and the role of these shareholders and front-men in the BCCI affair, a complete review of their holdings in the United States is warranted.

12. BCCI's collusion in Savings & Loan fraud in the U.S. The Subcommittee found ties between BCCI and two failed Savings and Loan institutions, CenTrust, which BCCI came to have a controlling interest in, and Caprock Savings and Loan in Texas, and as noted above, the involvement of BCCI figures with Charles Keating and his business empire. In each case, BCCI's involvement cost the U. S. taxpayers money. A comprehensive review of BCCI's account holders in the U.S. and globally might well reveal additional such cases. In addition, the issue of whether David Paul and CenTrust's political relationships were used by Paul on behalf of BCCI merits further investigation.

13. The sale of BCCI affiliate Banque de Commerce et de Placements (BCP) in Geneva, to the Cukorova Group of Turkey, which owned an entity involved in the BNL Iraqi arms sales, among others. Given BNL's links to BCCI, and Cukorova Groups' involvement through its subsidiary, Entrade, with BNL in the sales to Iraq, the swift sale of BCP to Cukorova just weeks after BCCI's closure -- prior to due diligence being conducted -- raises questions as to whether a prior relationship existed between BCCI and Cukorova, and Cukorova's intentions in making the purchase. Within the past year, Cukorova also applied to purchase a New York bank. Cukorova's actions pertaining to BCP require further investigation in Switzerland by Swiss authorities, and by the Federal Reserve New York.

14. BCCI's role in China. As noted in the chapter on BCCI's activities in foreign countries, BCCI had extensive activity in China, and the Chinese government allegedly lost $500 million when BCCI closed, mostly from government accounts. While there have been allegations that bribes and pay-offs were involved, these allegations require further investigation and detail to determine what actually happened, and who was involved.

15. The relationship between Capcom and BCCI, between Capcom and the intelligence community, and between Capcom's shareholders and U.S. telecommunications industry figures. The Subcommittee was able to interview people and review documents concerning Capcom that no other investigators had to date interviewed or reviewed. Much more needs to be done to understand what Capcom was doing in the United States, the United Kingdom, Egypt, Oman, and the Middle East, including whether the firm was, as has been alleged but not proven, used by the intelligence community to move funds for intelligence operations; and whether any person involved with Capcom was seeking secretly to acquire interests in the U.S. telecommunications industry.

16. The relationship of important BCCI figures and important intelligence figures to the collapse of the Hong Kong Deposit and Guaranty Bank and Tetra Finance (HK) in 1983. The circumstances surrounding the collpase of these two Hong Kong banks; the Hong Kong banks' practices of using nominees, front-companies, and back-to-back financial transactions; the Hong Banks' directors having included several important BCCI figures, including Ghanim Al Mazrui, and a close associate of then CIA director William Casey; all raise the question of whether there was a relationship between these two institutions and BCCI-Hong Kong, and whether the two Hong Kong institutions were used for domestic or foreign intelligence operations.

17. BCCI's activities in Atlanta and its acquisition of the National Bank of Georgia through First American. Although the Justice Department indictments of Clark Clifford and Robert Altman cover portions of how BCCI acquired National Bank of Georgia, other important allegations regarding the possible involvement of political figures in Georgia in BCCI's activities there remain outside the indictment. These allegations, as well as the underlying facts regarding BCCI's activities in Georgia, require further investigation.

18. The relationship between BCCI and the Banca Nazionale del Lavoro. BCCI and the Atlanta Branch of BNL had an extensive relationship in the United States, with the Atlanta Branch of BNL having a substantial number of accounts in BCCI's Miami offices. BNL was, according to federal indictments, a significant financial conduit for weapons to Iraq. BCCI also made loans to Iraq, although of a substantially smaller nature. Given the criminality of both institutions, and their interlocking activities, further investigation of the relationship could produce further understanding of Saddam Hussein's international network for acquiring weapons, and how Iraq evaded governmental restrictions on such weapons acquisitions.

19. The alleged relationship between the late CIA director William Casey and BCCI. As set forth in the chapter on intelligence, numerous trails lead from BCCI to Casey, and from Casey to BCCI, and the investigation has been unable to follow any of them to the end to determine whether there was indeed a relationship, and if there was, its nature and extent. If any such relationship existed, it could have a significant impact on the findings and conclusions concerning the CIA and BCCI's role in U.S. foreign policy and intelligence operations during the Casey era. The investigation's work detailing the ties of BCCI to the intelligence community generally also remains far from complete, and much about these ties remains obscure and in need of further investigation.

20. Money laundering by other major international banks. Numerous BCCI officials told the Subcommittee that BCCI's money laundering was no different from activities they observed at other international banks, and provided the names of a number of prominent U.S. and European banks which they alleged engaged in money laundering. There is no question that BCCI's laundering of drug money, while pervading the institution, constituted a small component of the total money laundering taking place in international banking. Further investigation to determine which international banks are soliciting and handling drug money should be undertaken.
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I Vote In Pittsburgh Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. Does this prove something?
I think it does. I think it shows that the anti-Clinton movement is really an anti-Hillary movement.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. 'Yes' voters should consider a lobotomy.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I disagree Swamp - Bush1 expected to be impeached after Dec 1992 release of BCCI report.
He was also going to get called to testify at the IranContra trials in early 93. No way would Bush have been able to pull off pardoning to PREVENT trials at that point, especially since BCCI report had JUST been released and went over some of those same matters in IranContra.

BushInc would have been fully exposed by the end of 94 and this nation would have been FAR, FAR BETTER OFF if they had been.

We would have won in 96, anyway, or actually, the Dem Speaker of the House would have become President before that 96 race.

You think this nation WOULDN'T be better off if BushInc had been fully exposed and held accountable by 1994?
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. You are assuming Bushler Sr. and the Reaganistas wouldn't have taken the next step:
Murder the opposition.


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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-27-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Well, had they offed Lawrence Walsh AND John Kerry and Hank Brown it would have
raised a few brows, eh? Remember, corpmedia hadn't completely taken over the newsmedia at that point.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-26-08 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
35. No, of course not.
Edited on Tue Feb-26-08 09:51 PM by TexasObserver
Bill was lightyears better than Bush I.

And he was the Democrat, and this is my team.
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