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Is this a rude question? Asked on Kerry's on-line forum.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:45 PM
Original message
Is this a rude question? Asked on Kerry's on-line forum.
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 01:45 PM by BurtWorm
<I asked the following question:>

A thread on Democratic Underground charges that Progressive Internationalism, which John Kerry allegedly subscribes to, holds that:

“Like the Cold War, the struggle we face today is likely to last not years, but decades. Once again, the United States must rally the forces of freedom and democracy around the world to defeat this new menace and build a better world.”

This quote comes from an article on the WSWS, a Socialist Website, that actually quotes a DLC policy paper on PI.

If this is John Kerry's position, I am extremely uncomfortable with it, because I believe it's an invitation to extend the Bushist security state indefinitely into the future. This may or may not result in getting terrorists off the street, but it will almost certainly result in alienating the people from the government.

<When no one answered I rephrased the question:>

Let me simplify the question: Does Kerry subscribe to Progressive Internationalism, and if so, what are the key points of PI he subscribes to?

<I received a reply from an "advanced member" telling me to "vote for Nader." Isn't this an important question to ask about a candidate you'd like to support?>
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. not rude
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Thanks.
Someone was kind enough to give me links to Kerry speeches that in fact answered the question positively. He does indeed believe in the war on terror: "I do not fault George Bush for doing too much in the War on Terror; I believe he’s done too little."

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I was going to say it wasn't rude, until I saw this post of yours
which seems to answer the question of "Does Kerry support PPI?" by responding "Yes, Kerry believes in the War on Terror"

The WoT is not PPI, and you conflating the two, in the same manner the commie piece conflates PPI with Kerry, shows the intent and motives behind the question
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The "commie" piece?
:eye:

You're a Scoop Jackson Democrat, I presume.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thanks for ignoring the issue, and focusing on one word
and then following it up with a little name-calling. IMO that indicates your intentions the same way conflating Kerry with PPI does.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well why use such a weird inflammatory word?
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 02:36 PM by BurtWorm
:shrug:

PS: Why do you need any answers from me since you seem to think you know my motives for posting? :eyes:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Weird and inflammatory?
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 02:36 PM by sangh0
What makes you say that?


:shrug:

And why ignore the issue? Why focus on one word out of several? And why the name-calling?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. "Commie" is not weird and inflammatory?
Interesting.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. No, it's a commonly used term for communists
Don't tell me you've never heard it before
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. I've heard it before. Archie Bunker used to use it and other colorful
terms on All in the Family, for instance. Get the picture?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. No, I don't get the picture
Plenty of communists use the term "commie". People with pov's as diverse as Archie Bunker through the communists themselves use the term "commie". I don't know why this gets your panties in a bunch. Maybe you should explain yourself instead of painting pictures.

McCarthy used the term "Communists". Does that mean "Communists" is a slur whenever someone else uses it?

And when will you stop ignoring the issue I raised and address it?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. What was your issue?
I'll do a poll and find out if "commie" is weird and inflammatory.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. WHy do you blame Kerry for what the DLC says
and why do you equate the War on Terror with the DLC Progressive Internationalism?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Kerry has said he subscribes to PI. PI is, according to the WSWS article,
a DLC construct--i.e., it is a position on foreign policy that the DLC has argued is "winnable" (since that's all the DLC really cares about).

I do not "blame" Kerry for anything. I asked if he believed in the war on terror, which is a concept I have problems with, considering it was cooked up by the friggin' "Vulcans" currently in control of the security apparatus. Kerry says he does believe in it. On further investigation, I have come to the conclusion that has been simmering below the surface for me about Kerry all along: He takes positions, a la DLC, that make him sound nice and red-bloodedly conservative. Perhaps under it all, there remains the Kerry I voted for in 1984, the one who voted against the first Gulf War. I have to simply hope he's there because his devoted followers want to make sure that if he is, he doesn't see his own shadow until after the election.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Kerry said he subscribes to the WSWS version of PI?
In his speeches, Kerry has spelled out exactly what he thinks progressive internationalism is, and it's nothing like the WSWS's version.

I do not "blame" Kerry for anything.

Sure you did. You blamed him for supporting a foriegn policy he has never said he supported.

I asked if he believed in the war on terror

No, you asked if he believed in progressive internationlism. Please be honest.

have come to the conclusion that has been simmering below the surface for me about Kerry all along: He takes positions, a la DLC, that make him sound nice and red-bloodedly conservative

Well, if he only says he's for it for appearances sake, and so will not actually implement these policies, then what are you concerned about? On one hand, you say he will pursue these policies, and now you're saying he won't.

You should make more credible arguments. You make a claim one moment, and then say the opposite the next. You say you don't think he's a hawk (ie. "the one who voted against the first Gulf War") and in the same thread make arguments that imply that he is a hawk. You ask if he supports PI, then say "yes because he supports the War on Terror" without ever explaining why you think the two are the same.

You still haven't explained why you think the PI Kerry supports is the same exact thing as described in WSWS's article.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. The strawman you're arguing with hasn't, I grant you.
My position has changed since I asked the question. Unlike you, perhaps, my question was intended to get me information. I got it. You're left arguing with a strawman.

By the way, "commie" is inflammatory, according to most respondents in my poll in the Lounge.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Wow, a DU Lounge poll!! That's certainly representative
of most Americans.

And you still haven't explained how you Kerry's PI is the same as the one described by WSWS. You've just claimed you have.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. It's certainly representative of the way the word would be taken on DU
isn't it? ;)

I never, ever made the claim that Kerry's position was the one described by WSWS. Go find me the words I used that misled you into thinking I ever held that position. Good luck! :hi:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. And one response from a commie
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 04:56 PM by sangh0
said it was fine with her. What you ran there was a bunch of non-commies saying "commie" was offensive, and the actual commie saying it was not. And even some of the the non-commies said that it depended on the circumstances.

And as far as your saying that Kerry's position was the same as what WSWS says it is, you said it yourself in this thread "because Kerry supports the War on Terror"
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Show me the exact words I used
to make you think I was arguing that Kerry's position is "the same as what WSWS says it is." Please.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Here ya go
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x469390#469617

Kerry has said he subscribes to PI. PI is, according to the WSWS article...a DLC construct
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. "On further investigation, I have come to the conclusion
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 05:26 PM by BurtWorm
On further investigation, I have come to the conclusion that has been simmering below the surface for me about Kerry all along: He takes positions, a la DLC, that make him sound nice and red-bloodedly conservative. Perhaps under it all, there remains the Kerry I voted for in 1984, the one who voted against the first Gulf War. I have to simply hope he's there because his devoted followers want to make sure that if he is, he doesn't see his own shadow until after the election."

My position, as it evolved since I asked this question originally, is that Kerry's position is not what it seems to be on the surface. When I asked the question, I wanted to know if Kerry was trying to out-"war on terror" the original warriors on terror. I wanted to know, in other words, if he was really taking a conservative position. In my opinion, arguing in favor of perpetual war against terrorism is a conservative position in that it keeps the power structure that Kerry would inherit from Bush (if he were to win) in place. I don't just want to see Bush gone. I want to see Bushism gone. Don't you?

To me, this is an important question. To you it may just be an amusing debating point you have with the poor deluded stragglers who can't get with the nominee. To me this is about the future of the power stucture in the US.


PS: Let me make it absolutely clear--let me say it again--that I think Kerry's position is designed to sound conservative, but that doesn't mean it actually is. I think Kerry and his managers are running a campaign designed to be read on many levels. The surface is conservative, but the deeper you dig, the more "left" it goes. This issue in particular is a good example of that.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. That makes more sense
and sounds reasonable. And since you did say "on further inspection" I should have realized that you have changed your mind. I was confused by your post (the one I posted the link for) which seemed to say that "because Kerry supports the WoT, he must support PI". In a subsequent post, I even note the discrepancy between your two positions, not realizing that one was from before, and one from after. My apologies for being so slow on the uptake.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. That's all right.
We're all geared to rumble in this forum. That's not necessarily what I'm interested in.
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tameszu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #36
75. PI is not a DLC construct
Edited on Fri Mar-19-04 06:16 AM by tameszu
I am not a fan of the DLC.

I am, loosely, a "progressive internationalist."

To me, a lot of people, from Wes Clark to John Kerry to Howard Dean are progressive internationalists. Kucinich, if he fully considered what it would mean to hand over power in Iraq to the UN, could be described as such if you only considered his view on security.

PI is the basic idea that the nations of the world and their political leaders need to have an outward, multilateral orientation to solving problems. It also holds that this orientation has to be substantiated through workable international institutions, such as the UN, NATO, and the ICC. And, yes, as flawed as they are, economic bodies such as the WTO--but also connected organizations like the ILO.

To the extent that some progressives and Dems (and "moderate" groups like the DLC, or however you want to label those guys) want to connect PI to the WoT, they argue that the WoT should preferably be faught employing the institutions that PI likes--such as INTERPOL, the UN and so on.

And the WSWS is not a good source. It is an ideological rag, and like any other ideological rag, should be taken with massive gobs of salt. The focus that old school Marxists take on foreign affairs concentrates much too narrowly on tired and procrustean frameworks that place everything in manichean terms: either a policy is "liberating for the working class" or it is "imperialist." You should not get sucked into accepting these kinds of dichotomies. Even more tellingly, this impoverished framework also reveals the critique Weber and many other socialogists have long pitched at Marxism: it ignores the importance of culture and religion as "mere" "superstructure" or "ideology" that overlays the true roots of exploitation. Such a framework is clearly inadequate when dealing with phenomena like religious fundamentalism, which aren't merely rooted in economic discontent.
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Donating Member ( posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Is progressive internationalism?
What they're calling neo-liberalism these days?
Just wondering.
Seriously.
This just occurred to me & I thought I'd bring it up.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. It's apparently some term the DLC cooked up.
They're too afraid to say "multilateralism" maybe. They don't want to sound like they'd allow other nations to be equal partners.
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tameszu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
76. No, it's a progressive term that the DLC wants to help define
Which isn't to say that everyone who is a progressive internationalist welcomes their help. I'm not sure if I do, for example.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sounds like the right answer to me...
terrorism is an ongoing problem that has been aroudn a lot longer than since 9/11, it is a problem (though IMHO not nearly as much of one as Bush would make it out to be) and it should be combatted. But the way to do it is through international consensus and cooperation rather then through bull-headed interventionism.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Why don't you read Kerry's own positions and his view of progressive
internationalism over the years.

It's been in his speeches and his written papers for years now.

Surely you must have researched these positions for yourself by now....how else did you decide who to support during the primary?

If, by some odd chance you have yet to study Kerry's own positions, then you can read his speeches and his policy positions at www.johnkerry.com

It should provide the answers you need.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
4. WSWS is an organ for Trotskyite socialism.
Nothing wrong in that, but it helps to keep that in mind when reading their analysis, because they start from the basic axiom that the current system is irredeemably corrupt and that those who participate in it - including us - are wasting their time.

Kerry probably is a progressive internationalist. So were Roosevelt and Truman. :D OTOH, so was Johnson. ;( WSWS is quite valuable, but I think you might want other views as well for balance - say, Joe Conason.

I think a vote for Nader would be dreadful at this time. I speak as one who did vote for him in 1996.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I'm not planning to vote for Nader. I'm planning to vote for Kerry.
And I think WSWS's Trotskyism is irrelevant if their allegation is accurate, which it seems to be. Kerry says he believes in the war on terror. That phrase grates against me, but Kerry's approach, which puts more emphasis on intelligence and law enforcement than the military, is clearly more sound than the Bushists' undending war.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. The PPI documents are much better written than PNAC and put things

in much nicer sounding words. It's a good match for Kerry because he also has a talent for putting things into much nicer words.

Whether the subject is imperialism, or getting needed office supplies, what you say frequently takes a back seat to how you say it!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Typical technique of faux-left agitators.
Interesting to find that technique used here at DU. The right has been using it for decades to suppress voter turnout on the left.

I wonder how many will be susceptible to that ploy this election year?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Now blm, at the meeting last night Mr Rove told you to stop outing me!

I guess I'm going to have to put you on report AGAIN!
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I don't find your banter funny at all. I think it's dangerous
just as Eric Alterman said on Charlie Rose last night.

Anyone who says there is not much difference between Bush and Kerry is DANGEROUS to this nation and should be called out on their ploys.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I find the funny banter quite effective
as a way to avoid confronting the issues.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. No, we don't have to keep that part secret any more

Which is pretty sensible when you think about it, since most of the voters consider the lack of substantive policy difference a plus, and the ones who don't are dangerous to the nation.

Luckily, the Patriot Act is in place to take care of that small but shrill menace.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. DF's UNFUNNY bottom line to all issues is that Kerry=Bush.
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 03:35 PM by blm
There...tell the truth, DF. That is your ONLY point that you want to make. Why use pretty words to say it?

YOU want people on the left to believe that Kerry is no different than Bush so it suppresses voter turnout from the disaffected left.

Personally, i think it is a sick and dangerous road to take.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. "Why use pretty words to say it?"
Because spoken plainly, it's obviously untrue and DF wouldn't want people to realize that. Instead, let's make 'em laugh. That'll show those imperialists.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. .
Just ask him to be more specific about his accusations, own ideas and proposals for policies he prefers. You will realise that there is close to nothing besídes hot air.
Empty phrases and old slogans which get repeated again and again. It's actually quite boring and well...extremely unfunny.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. A person who is a "true leftist", in this country ,
is on the outside looking in with either of the "major" parties. From a leftist point of view the two parties are much more like the centrist and conservative wings of a single party because they share so many fundamental principles. The two "parties" have many differences in policies and in takes on issues, but they are differences of degree (and sometimes not that many degrees). Why this is viewed as inflamatory by many Dems is a mystery. The huge majority of "leftists" in this country realize that only one of the two major "parties" can win, so they will opt for the centrist, Democrats. There is no need to scream and make faces at "commies", "pink-os" just because they are calling it as they see it. Anyone in their right mind would perfer Kerry over Bush, we just don't have to be brain-dead to do it.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. More of "my opinion is real, so my opinion is realistic"
The two "parties" have many differences in policies and in takes on issues, but they are differences of degree (and sometimes not that many degrees). Why this is viewed as inflamatory by many Dems is a mystery.

It's not. The crapola about how "there's no difference" is inflammatory. If "leftists" (and I put that in quotes to indicate I think the division of DUers into leftists and non-leftists is bogus) said what you just said, they wouldn't inflame people. Instead we get "there's no difference"
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
61. Do you know bush has more money than Kerry?

Do you know that Al Gore did not win by a landslide?

Shouldn't Kerry supporters use their resources to get the votes they need to win - votes of people who are either unaware of or don't have a problem with the status quo but who dislike bush's crude manner and rough speech?

If by "disaffected left" you mean the handful of people who oppose US policies regardless of who implements them or what nomenclature they are assigned, Kerry does not need those votes. I think both bush and Kerry would agree with you that these are dangerous people.

Personally, I think the Pattiot Act is sufficient to take care of them, but if you feel that other measures are necessary, why not make a concrete plan instead of just warning status quo supporters of the danger?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. OMG!!! DF spoke of a "plan"
The only problem is, once again, it turns out to be someone else's plan. Once again, we see DF has no plan, and no clue.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I admit, all plans I have suggested require reading

I acknowledge that reading is a singularly unpopular pastime, and could even be considered almost as dangerous as anti-Kerryism.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. LOL!! "all plans I have suggested"
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 06:43 PM by sangh0
You mean "all NONE of them"?

And don't worry. No one on DU reads
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. It was not my intention to accuse you of reading

I apologize if I gave that impression.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. *snarf*
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. I"ve read your plans
All none of them
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I hear you.
;)

Here's a passage in one of his speeches on the subject that illustrates your point very nicely, I think:

http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0227.html

"At the core of this conflict is a fundamental struggle of ideas. Of democracy and tolerance against those who would use any means and attack any target to impose their narrow views.

"The War on Terror is not a clash of civilizations. It is a clash of civilization against chaos; of the best hopes of humanity against dogmatic fears of progress and the future.

"Like all Americans, I responded to President Bush’s reassuring words in the days after September 11th. But since then, his actions have fallen short.

"I do not fault George Bush for doing too much in the War on Terror; I believe he’s done too little....

"George Bush has no comprehensive strategy for victory in the War on Terror – only an ad hoc strategy to keep our enemies at bay. If I am Commander-in-Chief, I would wage that war by putting in place a strategy to win it."




It seems to me, hwoever, in light of other things Kerry says in this speech, that he has a habit of talking tougher than he plans to act. He actually does plan to put more emphasis on intelligence and law enforcement than military operations, just as Cheney charges. And I think Kerry's is a more sane, more humane approach, anyway. Really, I do. He does make this good point in the same speech: "The President’s budget for the National Endowment for Democracy’s efforts around the world, including the entire Islamic world, is less than three percent of what this Administration gives Halliburton – hardly a way to win the contest of ideas."

Now I have some problem with the idea of a "contest of ideas" that must be won. I need to know what idea or ideas exactly Kerry thinks "we" should push. But I would rather see money spent on radio stations and information outlets than on concentration camps and detention centers.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
41. I think that the PNAC has adopted terms to mask their true intentions
I tend to believe the words and stated intentions of lifetime Democrats however. Not one member of the DLC or the PPI has advocated imperialism. Where are your words to support this DuctapeFatwa?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #41
62. Don't think of it as imperialism. Think of it as
"progressive internationalism" the url is http://www.ppionline.org

Of course whatever you call it makes no difference to the victims, but hey, they're in third world countries so they can't vote!
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Of course, I haven't posted a thing on this
What kind of argument is a link?

You ascribe the worst abuses of others to the stated positions of the DLC. Where do you assert that the DLC's policy positions on PI have been utilized by the government to effect what you decry?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. I'm not sure how the DLC can do a lot with the government at this time

due to the presence of a Republican in the White House.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Let me interpret
DF thinks that "PI is the same the PNAC's plan because the DLC can't do anything with a Republican in the White House". Make sense now?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. :crazy:
:crazy:
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. It's way worse than that. I actually read both documents

Kerry will need a whole separate TIPS program just for me.

Next time, it might be an almanac.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. So should we do nothing about organized terrorism?
If people are trading small arms in Africa and using that money to fund terrorism, should we do nothing?

If people are actively organizing cells and militias should we just ignore it in the hopes that it goes away?

When people were training in militia camps here in America the likes of which supported Tim McVeigh, did you think we should just let them be and address their concerns as outlined in the Turner Diaries?

I am not saying we should militarize our society, but how do you propose we disarm people who ARE planning to do us harm ( and surely you acknowledge there are groups that would do us harm regardless of any policy changes we make...do you not?)
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. It's the priority of it I question.
Making it absolute top priority, at the exclusion of all other foreign and domestic issues, is not productive for anyone but the security/industrial complex.

I know a Democratic candidate cannot say such a thing. But I can say it, thank the gods!
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. Before you question the priority of it for Kerry
shouldn't you first ascertain if Kerry even agrees with this? In your original post you ask "If this is Kerry's position..." and since then, you've made no effort to answer this, as far as I can tell.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I have and did.
He made clear he believes in the war on terror, and claims even moreso than Bush. It's just a ruse though to make what seems to be a more rational position more red meat than it is.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. There you go again
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 02:56 PM by sangh0
Conflating the War on Terror with PPI an idea you have yet to explain or defend
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. See above.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. You still haven't answered the question
and "see above" won't hide that
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Just my 2 cents, but I've always thought that internal organizations ...
are far more dangerous than external elements. It takes tremendous logistical power to attack this country from the outside. Not only financial power, but just setting up the logistics w/o being compromised is a nightmare. The attacks on 9-11 were successful due more to mistakes being made, and info not forwarded or ignored, than to al-Qaeda's vast resources and ingenuity.

Those homegrown terrorists are far easier to fit into the everyday lifestyles of average America. Thousands of times we've heard of people that have done horrendous things, and we always seem to get the same reaction from friends and neighbors of the perpetrators, "Who would have known, he was the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet".

While in the Army, I was invited to join a group in LA that was KKK. I declined, and turned the names over to my CO. I have no idea how many members in the military belong to 'subversive' groups, (I hope they can be counted on 1 hand), but I do know these people were investigated by the CID and the AG. If they had never said anything to me, I would never have guessed they were involved in anything that was considered 'subversive'.

I use this as an example, and do not think these people are behind every tree, or in every basement. The case should be made though, that these people do exist, and ignoring them will only make this nation less safe. I believe a person is innocent until proven guilty, and there must be probable cause before people are investigated.

Bottom line, it is easier for someone that lives here to do harm to us, than it is for someone who comes from a distant land. The good thing is, except in remarkably few cases, these people seem not too intent on doing harm, but rather are merely protective of their own selfish interests.

O8)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. I am very much in agreement with this statement
But I do think it is valid at times when we intercept elsewhere. I was supportive of the Somalia mission, not only due to genocide but due to the fact that the warlords there were trained by funds from the "small arms" race...one that Bush seems disinterested in and Kerry understands.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Agreed...
there are times when we should get involved with affairs overseas to protect ourselves, and others.

I have know for years, that if you go into a country with books, seeds, and technology to get water and food to the people; you take the power away from those that have instilled in the people the notion that they have a way to just brush away all that is afflicting them. In most situations where warlords and the like have pushed the people to near starvation, they get the people to follow them through food. If you can get in, and ensure these people will become self sufficient over time, they will move to your side of the court. Time after time, civilizations have gone into others with the attempt to change that society at the point of a bayonet. It has not worked yet, and I cannot see where it will work in the future.

You will get far more people on your side if you treat them with dignity and honor.

O8)
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
50. You're right. Our country is the biggest arms dealer in the world,
and therefore should be reined in before it causes more chaos and destruction in the world.

To rail against other groups for their "terroristic" actions while not changing our own not only reeks of hypocracy, but reinforces the notion that the only way to achieve victory is by force.

There is little if any difference between the neo-liberal PNAC view and the "Internationalism" of the PPI. The only difference is that the PPI may indulge the third world in a reach-around while they continue screwing them of their resources, people and rights.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
32. I don't like the slanderous morphing of Democrats with Pugs
In September 2000, the PNAC drafted a report entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century."

The conservative foundation- funded report was authored by Bill Kristol, Bruce Jackson, Gary Schmitt, John Bolton and others. Bolton, now Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, was Senior Vice President of the conservative American Enterprise Institute.

The report called for: ". . . significant, separate allocation of forces and budgetary resources over the next two decades for missile defense," and claimed that despite the "residue of investments first made in the mid- and late 1980s, over the past decade, the pace of innovation within the Pentagon had slowed measurably." Also that, "without the driving challenge of the Soviet military threat, efforts at innovation had lacked urgency."

The PNAC report asserted that "while long-range precision strikes will certainly play an increasingly large role in U.S. military operations, American forces must remain deployed abroad, in large numbers for decades and that U.S. forces will continue to operate many, if not most, of today's weapons systems for a decade or more."

The PNAC document encouraged the military to "develop and deploy global missile defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world."

In reference to the nation's nuclear forces, the PNAC document asserted that, " reconfiguring its nuclear force, the United States also must counteract the effects of the proliferation of ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction that may soon allow lesser states to deter U.S. military action by threatening U.S. allies and the American homeland itself."

"The (Clinton) administration's stewardship of the nation's deterrent capability has been described by Congress as "erosion by design," the group chided.

The authors further warned that, "U.S. nuclear force planning and related arms control policies must take account of a larger set of variables than in the past, including the growing number of small nuclear arsenals –from North Korea to Pakistan to, perhaps soon, Iran and Iraq – and a modernized and expanded Chinese nuclear force."

In addition, they counseled, "there may be a need to develop a new family of nuclear weapons designed to address new sets of military requirements, such as would be required in targeting the very deep underground, hardened bunkers that are being built by many of our potential adversaries."

The 2002 PNAC document is a mirrored synopsis of the Bush administration's foreign policy today. President Bush is projecting a domineering image of the United States around the world which has provoked lesser equipped countries to desperate, unconventional defenses; or resigned them to a humiliating surrender to our rape of their lands, their resources and their communities.

The PNAC ‘Rebuilding America' report was used after the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks to draft the 2002 document entitled "The National Security Strategy of the United States," which for the first time in the nation's history advocated "preemptive" attacks to prevent the emergence of opponents the administration considered a threat to its political and economic interests.

It states that ". . . we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm against our people and our country." And that, "To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively."

This military industry band of executives promoted the view, in and outside of the White House that, " must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends. . . We must deter and defend against the threat before it is unleashed."

‘Peace through strength’; big kid on the block,' is a posture which is more appropriately used to counter threats by nations; not to threats by rouge individuals with no known base of operations.

Their strategy asserts that "The United States has long maintained the option of preemptive actions to counter a sufficient threat to our national security. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction - and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy's attack."

So their plan is to attack whomever, whenever they feel our security is threatened, no matter if the nature and prevalence of the attack is uncertain. The U.N. should have studied this document before it wasted its time trying to reign President Bush in.

(mods, the above is from my book, Power Of Mischief http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0974735205/002-0073119-5222456?v=glance&s=books)


Kerry signed the DLC manifesto, "A New Agenda for the New Decade":
http://www.issues2002.org/International/John_Kerry_Foreign_Policy.htm

Build a Public Consensus Supporting US Global Leadership

The internationalist outlook that served America and the world so well during the second half of the 20th century is under attack from both ends of the political spectrum. As the left has gravitated toward protectionism, many on the right have reverted to “America First” isolationism.

Our leaders should articulate a progressive internationalismbased on the new realities of the Information Age: globalization, democracy, American pre-eminence, and the rise of a new array of threats ranging from regional and ethnic conflicts to the spread of missiles and biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. This approach recognizes the need to revamp, while continuing to rely on, multilateral alliances that advance U.S. values and interests.

A strong, technologically superior defense is the foundation for US global leadership. Yet the US continues to employ defense strategies, military missions, and force structures left over from the Cold War, creating a defense establishment that is ill-prepared to meet new threats to our security. The US must speed up the “revolution in military affairs” that uses our technological advantage to project force in many different contingencies involving uncertain and rapidly changing security threats -- including terrorism and information warfare.

Goals for 2010

A clear national policy with bipartisan support that continues US global leadership, adjusts our alliances to new regional threats to peace and security, promotes the spread of political and economic freedom, and outlines where and how we are willing to use force.
A modernized military equipped to deal with emerging threats to security, such as terrorism, information warfare, weapons of mass destruction, and destabilizing regional conflicts.

Source: The Hyde Park Declaration 00-DLC12 on Aug 1, 2000
___________________________________________________________________

"Progressive Internationalism" proposes a six-step national security agenda for the Democratic Party and for the United States:
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252147&kaid=131&subid=207

Advance democracy abroad to make us safer at home: Arguing that America's power should serve our democratic ideals, the authors call for a new push for political and economic reforms in the greater Middle East, which has emerged as the world's most unstable and dangerous region. Their strategy for encouraging forces of reform and modernization in the region includes a new Middle East Trade Initiative to spur growth and development, new aid for governments that embrace openness and accountability, and a crash program to reduce America's dependence on oil.

Prevent terrorists and dangerous regimes from acquiring weapons of mass destruction: If during the Cold War we faced an arms race to build weapons, we are now in a race to keep them out of the wrong hands. Democrats would pursue a collective approach in dealing with the dangerous situation in North Korea by engaging the United Nations and North Korea's neighbors; and would focus on preventing the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) through expansion of the successful Nunn-Lugar program, rather than relying on military preemption of the use of WMD.

Plug gaps in homeland defense: Democrats would bring an overdue sense of urgency to defending our homeland by creating America's first-ever domestic intelligence organization; offering state and local leaders useful guidance based on genuine threat assessment; merging terrorist watch lists and ensuring information sharing among law enforcement agencies; and by investing in resources to equip police, fire fighters and public health officials with the tools needed to protect their communities.

Transform the U.S. military and use it more effectively: Democrats would make room for investments to modernize and sustain America's military superiority into the future by dismantling obsolete Cold War infrastructure, working toward assuring the "information dominance" clearly necessary in dealing with today's threats, and making smarter use of American military power. They would also press for an expanded NATO peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan, and maintain a robust military presence in Iraq until security and stability have been achieved.

Reinvigorate America's strategic alliances: Democratic presidents have made America's strategic alliances a cornerstone of their foreign policy. Democrats still believe that our alliances are as important as ever. They intend not to abandon them, but to reorient them to new challenges by strengthening and reforming international institutions such as NATO, the United Nations, the international financial institutions, and the World Trade Organization.

Restore American global economic leadership: Democrats would revive U.S. leadership in the global economy by restoring the dynamism of the American economy through a rejection of the Bush administration's policies of fiscal recklessness; offering a fundamentally new approach to trade and economic relations with the Muslim world; renewing and expanding trade agreements and negotiations; and encouraging reform of multilateral lending institutions to tackle corruption and poverty more vigorously.

_____________________________________________________________________


I don't view the DLC's call for U.S. preeminence as anything akin to Bush's plan for world dominance. The Democratic policy is clearly a rejection of the unilateralism of the Bush regime. I don't think that just because they seek an assertive role in world affairs that they automatically represent the worse aspects of interventionism.

These are the stated goals of the Democratic policy institute:

"Just over a year from now, the country will face a critical national election. But between now and then, Democrats must cross a threshold of credibility on national security issues before much of the public will listen to the rest of their powerful case for firing the incumbent.

Recent events in Iraq and the Middle East generally, compounded by the Bush administration's chronic failure to obtain international support for U.S. policies, have emboldened some Democrats to believe that the facts on the ground alone can erase the big advantage Republicans hold on national security issues.

That is wishful thinking. Simply exploiting administration policy failures without laying out a coherent critique of the GOP philosophy toward the rest of the world will take Democrats only so far in challenging Bush's claim that the country is more secure than it was when he took office. More importantly, Democrats must offer a clear, bold, and principled alternative strategy for advancing U.S. values and interests in a dangerous world if they are to refute Republican efforts to label them as untrustworthy on national security issues.

To that end, a distinguished group of 15 national security experts convened by the Progressive Policy Institute have drafted an important new document aimed at reconnecting Democrats with their proud tradition of muscular internationalism."



I am not open to broad claims of Kerry's intent as it relates to these DLC documents. I do feel that we can interpret his views on these issues in the context of his actual statements and actions. In that regard I don't think we can tie him to every word in the DLC manifesto. I fully expect John Kerry to form and promote his personal philosophy on these issues if he reaches a position of ultimate influence.

John Kerry Issues Page: Foreign Policy
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy

John Kerry on Foreign Policy:
http://www.issues2002.org/International/John_Kerry_Foreign_Policy.htm

Text of John Kerry Speech at GU on Foreign Policy
http://www.themoderntribune.com/john_kerry_-_presidential_candidate_-_ ...

John Kerry on VoteMatch
Supports multilateral cooperative internationalism; Progressive Internationalism
http://issues2002.org/John_Kerry_VoteMatch.htm



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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. .John Kerry Foreign Policy Speech Georgetown University
John Kerry
Foreign Policy Speech
Georgetown University
Washington, DC
January 23, 2003

For us today, the past truly is prologue. The same principles and strength of purpose must guide our way. Our task now is to update that tradition, to forge a bold progressive internationalism for the global age.

As I said last summer in New York, for Democrats to win America's confidence we must first convince Americans we will keep them safe. You can't do that by avoiding the subjects of national security, foreign policy and military preparedness. Nor can we let our national security agenda be defined by those who reflexively oppose any U.S. military intervention anywhere...who see U.S. power as mostly a malignant force in world politics...who place a higher value on achieving multilateral consensus than necessarily protecting our vital interests.

Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. I believe they deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold, progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and the imminent but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decades, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are, in the truest sense, not just issues of international order and security, but vital issues of our own national security...

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition...

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/issues/kerr012303spfp.html
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. The effort is appreciated but useless
People who are going to blame Kerry for something someone else said are not going to be swayed by information.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
56. If you want to debate Kerry's positions, you can't use some other position
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 05:28 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
as a starting point.

If you want to have a debate with someone proposing the policy that the Socialists you are talking about are calling 'progressive internationalism', you'll have to actually find that person first.



But it is silly to expect Kerry supporters to defend some strawman you have erected.



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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Apparently I can because I've been having a debate all afternoon
using this as a starting point. It wasn't a debate I wanted exactly, but there you have it.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. If you call it a debate when you falsely ascribe views to someone
Edited on Thu Mar-18-04 05:41 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
and his supporters call you on it. lol
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
69. Lessons to be learned
When your bright shining cause(or nation) has been hijacked by the ideological opposites. Then the actions seem to be conducted and the philosophy proposed that seems very much like the "good thing" you had proposed. That invariably you are then trapped into going along and trying in vain to steer the policy rationally from the Senate.

After this, one should look in the mirror and think long and hard again about intervention and "purity" of motive. Still, the fortress of democracy model from WWII, like the French Revolution having to strike out against implacable foes, is one of defense and idealism. They won't let you alone. The world and its peoples not only deserve but vitally need unity, peace and an idealistic cooperation of heroic magnitude to merely survive the coming crises.

The perversion of the power grabbers, always more adept at force and coercion, is the dark side of a flawed "necessity", the castellation of a road warrior apocalyptic future of renewed militarism, survivalism and dominance of our elite- the other answer to upcoming crises. A millennium of perhaps fatally useless bloodshed, a new dark age, a dashed hope for billions of overcrowded humans.

Suddenly the pragmatic middle accommodating the greed and the power has vanished. Of course any sensible person should be uncomfortable- after this- of trying to re-accommodate the old pragmatism, the corrupted idealism and putting forward the "superiority" of American's feet of clay to step to this old future view.

I think this will really take a new generation of leadership and vision beyond any available on the scene today. Grimly we are fighting back to win a looted city and reconstruction will be large part of our "future".

Free to disagree, world leaders will be reluctant to follow Kerry's lead on many things- and there is our joke of a Congress to hobble us as before with Clinton.

Someone in the Kerry group should be doing some very hard rethinking, regardless of what is needed for the election. Simply taking Junior's scratched ruined, muddy ball back to the game won't be possible.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. Very well said.
And eloquently bracing.
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arewethereyet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-18-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
73. you're not supposed to pay attention to the man behind the curtain
just go "rah rah" on cue.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-19-04 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
78. "Isn't this an important question to ask ..."
Apparently not, according to many Kerry supporters.

It makes me very wary. But then, I'm no fan of Kerry.

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