Let me get this straight--Dean can only say what Kerry wants him to?

[jpgray]

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. Dean should be doing exactly what he IS doing--firing the shots across the bow of the RNC that Kerry CAN'T fire to freak out Ed Gillespee and the Bushies. Kerry can remain above the fray while the damage is still done to Bush et al. Strategically, Kerry would have to be an idiot to come out in support of Dean's comments. It would energize 2% of the populace while alienating 20% once the RW media got through with him. When Dean says it, apart from being correct, it puts the message out there without driving a stake through Kerry's candidacy.

Dean is doing exactly what he should be doing--speaking the truth about Bush's mishandling of foreign affairs. Kerry is doing what he should be doing--trying not to get completely buried as the 'terrorist's choice' candidate.

So what's the problem? I thought it worked beautifully. Dean is a big boy and can blast back the RW stuff himself--he should not be a mouthpiece of Kerry, but an ally.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

1. I agree

I only disagree when people state that Kerry should back up Dean's statements....I think they should both operate independently and I am happy with Dean doing as he wishes...I agree with your position.

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. the problem is

Dean throws poo, and the poo gets flung back at Kerry, not Dean.

[jpgray]

5. Dean is fulfilling an important role

The needs for a political activist are far different than the needs for a national candidate. Kerry couldn't say these things unless he had the media clout to get them repeated correctly. He doesn't have that media clout. Dean can put it out there without torpedoing Kerry's campaign, and no matter how much of a tizzy it puts people in, that's a good thing in my opinion.

[Kahuna]

12. Right. Imagine how they would howl if ...

Dean was the nominee with Kerry running around saying stupid things?
:eyes: Dean seems to want to be a shadow candidate. Typical. :puke:

[chocolateeater]

18. So telling the truth so the nominee can stay above the fray, is stupid?

Oops, I forgot we're supposed to let the Bushies frame the debate.

[Kahuna]

19. Right. I forgot. Look how well the argument worked for him..

Oh! That's right. It didn't work for him. Oops! :eyes:

[chocolateeater]

27. I think you missed the point.

Dean gets dirty playing the attack dog, so Kerry can stay clean. But I forgot something else; it's funner to bash Dean, than to look and see what is actually going on. My my, I am getting absent-minded.

[WilliamPitt]

3. No

but if Dean says something that does not match up with the tight offense/defense game the Kerry team is playing, he shouldn't expect Kerry to back him up. Dean's his own man, and doesn't need any protection that could be offered by Kerry.

[wndycty]

4. Exactly Will.

:kick:

[Leilani]

6. The problem is the media

They are reporting Kerry doing "damage control"

Why doesn't Kerry say Dean is free to speak his own mind?

[Kahuna]

Kerry should not have felt the need to denounce what Dean..

said. He should have told the bushistas to take a hike. Now he will have to denounce everything the bushies deem unAmerican. :puke:

[Kahuna]

20. self deleted dupe.

[Jacobin]

7. Man o man, Kerry and his supporters are really blowing a gasket

with all this.

It's getting harder and harder to support this guy and it should be just the opposite.

[jpgray]

8. So in your opinion he should fully endorse Dean's comment? (nt)

[Jacobin]

15. No, he can speak for himself

and Dean can speak for himself.

I'm just frustrated as hell with the last couple of days events with Kerry dissing the Spanish, right along with smirky, with his long winded crap of responses, his failure to get in smirk's face and keep on top of things.

didn't mean to hijack your thread with this. I'll go away.
:-)

[jpgray]

16. It's frustrating, no doubt about it.

Feel free to clog up my threads any time. :D

[emulatorloo]

13. What are you talking about?!?! Dean is a great surrogate and Kerry is the

candidate. . .they are two different roles. My gasket is very intact. Dean is doing a great thing saying things that the candidate can't say.

[Jacobin]

17. i suppose its just too other-worldly for my naive brain.

nevermind

[emulatorloo]

39. No you are cool, but gasket blowers are in a minority I think. . .EOM

[maddezmom]

9. agree, Dean knows what he's doing

and doesn't expect Kerry to defend him against the RW smear machine.

[Kahuna]

24. I wish I had your faith. But I don't. I don't think Dean..

knows or cares about how his comments and actions affect the big picture. Sorry, but I somehow don't believe that he really cares as long as he gets to spout off and say, 'uh huh, I told you so.'

Never in my long days on this earth have I seen a loser try to remain in the spotlight the way Dean is doing. And don't give me his altruistic reasons for doing so. I don't buy it. I am sure that if Dean was the nominee he would not appreciate a shadow candidate running beside him. Given the way Dean was demanding that everyone fall in line with him before even one vote was cast, I feel safe in making this accusation. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. But for right now Dean needs to get off the stage. He lost. That's the way the game is played.

[maddezmom]

28. gotcha

:pals: But I still think Dean knows that no one is going to come to his rescue. When he sticks his neck out with comments that don't jive with Kerry's message, he's on his own. Dean has already tried to clarify his remarks.

[maxanne]

36. good

then perhaps ya'll will stop insisting that Dean do Kerry's campaigning for him. I've read plenty of commentary here insisting that Dean jump on the Kerry wagon, supporting and endorsing - not to mention turning over his list and fundraising. You can't have it both ways.

[madfloridian]

10. Gotcha.

Got the point. I agree except when the RNC calls him a terror mouthpiece.

Wolf just announced that Kerry disavowed Dean.

I don't mind the thought that Dean can take up for himself, especially since he cuts through the crap when he speaks. I do not worry about Dean taking care of himself, and he thoroughly enjoys a good fight.

I just think the head of the RNC needs a good Democratic Party slapdown over this. Don't you? Are there any members of the DNC/DLC cabal who might say to the idiot head of the GOP....hey Ed you are out of line?

Kerry gets to keep hands clean, and someone covers Dean's butt. But, wait, I forgot that Dean does not tell the truth obliquely enough.

:spank:

[jpgray]

11. Look, you folks are acting as though we have some media influence

We don't. They control the message almost entirely. They will spin this to help GWB no matter what, as you have seen. If Kerry came out to support the comment (which is correct), he would be eviscerated for the next week on every news program out there. He would be forced to defend the position ad nauseum until it literally defined his candidacy IN THEIR TERMS.

If we had a level playing field, where we could define Dean's comment, I'd say Kerry should fully endorse it. But what we have seen shows we have to opposite--Dean's comments are already being spun completely out of proportion and there is not enough Dem power on the news stations to deflate the RW interpretation.

Dean is doing the right thing by telling the truth. Kerry is doing the right thing by avoiding being stamped into a bloody pancake. In the wake of the 'Spain is an appeaser!' 'Al Qaeda won the elections!' echo chamber, strategically Kerry has no other choice. I'm sorry, and it sucks. :(

edit: and yes, Ed Gillespee should be taken to task for his shameful comment on this.

[madfloridian]

32. "You folks". Define.

I agree with you on most. I have been saying that the party should no longer let the GOP call Democrats names.

I am not trying to be difficult, but I get no answers when I say that.

Is the you folks referring to Dean supporters, who are now going to vote for Kerry?

The Democratic Party should NEVER let the GOP call one of their former candidates a terrorist mouthpiece.

That is just ridiculous that party spokesmen are not all over the place debunking this.

[jpgray]

34. The people who are saying 'why can't Kerry just define issue x'

They are not limited to any one group of supporters.

The reason he can't define these issues (yet) is because he doesn't have the media influence that W has, and he doesn't have the money that W has. Once one or mpre of those things changes, he can start to stake out risky positions because he can define them for himself rather than watch the pundits define them for him. So if he had endorsed Dean's statement, he would have been defined as a 'terrorist mouthpiece' even as Dean has. The same thing has happened with the Spanish elections--the other side of the story just DOESN'T get told right now, and Kerry is loath to make a statement that could define his candidacy before he can effectively fight back.

[nankerphelge]

14. 100% correct

Guess what - W will smear and attack Kerry no metter what; Dean should go on the attack and put the repukes on the defensive for once.

[lastknowngood]

21. If the truth is unpalatable for Kerry perhaps he should not run as a

leader. Listen people the only reason their is any hope at all for the democratic nominee is because Dean started telling the truth about a year ago. If you think this boring monotone uncommitted and unimpassioned speachmaking and then spending all of his air time trying to defend against the latest shrub accusation is going to win you are living in a dreamworld.

[Leilani]

22. It seems it's a Dem organization problem

During the primaries, we were on the offensive, & the candidates didn't all agree on everything.

But now there is no consistent message against Bush. Not enough Dems are speaking out. Where are all the Senators, Reps, Governors?

Of course if Dean is a lonely voice out there, he's going to get attacked. We need more people going after Bush & all the time, & keep them so busy responding, their heads will spin.

[jpgray]

25. Either an org problem or a media influence problem

Either way, the sooner fixed the better.

[Kahuna]

26. We don't need people blaming the Spain attack on bush..

whether we believe it's true or not. In life, you pick your fights. This is a losing battle with the majority of voters. It's best not to go there.

[patricia92243]

23. Usually it's the VP candidate that does the pit bull stuff. It has to be

done, so Dean is just getting a headstart on it.

[jsw_81]

29. Kerry is the leader of our party, that's what the voters decided

Dean (or any other prominent Democrat, for that matter) can't just go around shooting his mouth off about things unless he gets the green light from the Kerry campaign. We can't have Kerry saying one thing and Dean contradicting him five minutes later.

[jpgray]

30. I think Dean should say whatever he wants

But as long as that's the case, Kerry can't be called upon to endorse every thing he says. That's the way both would want it, I imagine, rather than a lockstep mouthpiece operation.

[jsw_81]

31. Bottom line: Dean needs to watch his mouth

His apparent inability to think before he speaks is what sank his once promising campaign. He needs to go back to Vermont and cool off for a while; Kerry will call him if he needs his help. That's the tradition. If Dean wants to have a role in the Kerry administration, he'll follow orders.

[madfloridian]

33. Wrong.

Democrats watch their mouth too much....way too much. Past time to get outspoken.

[jsw_81]

38. Being outspoken is why Howard Dean will be a footnote in American history

Serious presidential candidates (e.g. Kerry, Clinton) win by attracting moderates and even some members of the other party. You don't win by screaming, yelling, or frothing at the mouth. It's not presidential and it turns people off. Just ask Howard Dean.

[jpgray]

35. I disagree

Dean will be more effective in this role once Democrats have more media support. But even now I support his saying what he thinks.

[MasonJar]

37. Just more Bush/Rove bulls___. n/t

[ulysses]

40. I think that's fine.

Dean playing attack dog to a more positive approach from Kerry could be perfect strategy, and as long as *someone's* out there taking it to Bush, that's good. I'm less worried about Kerry needing to stick up for Dean - as others have pointed out, Dean can take care of himself - than about the eventual need for Kerry, as the nominee, to say some of these things himself.