To Those Who Say Dean Should Shut Up

Lets take this to the next level, shall we?

Why stop at Dean? Shouldn't ALL Democrats just shut up?

After all, if we never say anything, then we never have to stand behind what we've said.

If we never take a stand, then we never risk upsetting anyone.

If we never upset anyone, then the Dems will be the best liked party in America.

If we are the most popular party in the country, we're bound to win every election!

So please Dems, just shut up and let the victory party begin!

[ulysses]

1. you've just described

the DLC strategy in a nutshell. :D

[AntiCoup2K4]

3. Yep. And it's worked so well. In 1994. In 2002. In 2000 ......

....being close enough to steal. Yep that DLC strategery is working just AWESOME!

For the Republicans, that is.

But then, maybe that's been the idea all along.

[mzmolly]

5. LOL

DLC strategy it is!

[IrateCitizen]

16. Hi uly! Still at it, I see!

Leave it to you to never miss an opportunity to hit the DLC!

;-)

[ulysses]

18. when serendipity knocks, my friend!

How are things? :hi:

[coloradodem2005]

2. "To those who say Dean should Shut up"

I say "You first."

[IrateCitizen]

4. Surrogates attack, Kerry takes high road...

Dean is a PERFECT foil to go after the GOP, IMHO. For one simple reason -- it relieves Kerry from having to do so.

Other Dems and organizations should note this. If Dean says something that is perceived as "outrageous", it frees Kerry up to make what would otherwise be perceived as a strident criticism but instead comes off as seeming "moderate".

IOW, take the same kind of playbook that the GOP has been using for some time. Use surrogates to make outrageous statements over and over -- and after a while the candidate can pick up on those themes and they seem "moderate" to the electorate.

[mzmolly]

6. I agree for the most part. Though I don't find Dean's statments

"outrageous"

I do think this could be a good strategy. Dean has always told the truth, why stop now?!

[IrateCitizen]

8. I didn't say I found them "outrageous" either

I said that they could be perceived as "outrageous" -- especially to those hearing them in the context of the media spin.

[w4rma]

7. Bingo. (n/t)

[AntiCoup2K4]

9. Dean's statements are simply the truth.

Kerry is being "outrageous" by not distancing himself from Bush. And it will cost him bigtime in the end, byt not giving voters, swing voters especially, an alternative to Bush. If you have two guys saying essentially the same thing, why bother to change the one that's already there??

[IrateCitizen]

13. The trick is not to view the comments from your perspective...

... but to view them from the perspective of someone who gets what little news they do from the talking heads on cable news networks or the main networks. If you are able to hear Dean's comments from that rather misinformed perspective, they CAN be perceived as "outrageous".

Does that mean that I believe them to be so? Not at all. I fully agree that they are basic truths. But the person we need to sway, the person who doesn't spend time on DU and who doesn't think that reading The Nation or Mother Jones cover-to-cover is their idea of a good time, does not perceive these statements as basic truths.

Therefore, you have to adopt strategy that is built toward GETTING THEM to eventually see these as basic truths.

The way to do that is NOT to give them all of this stuff that runs counter to the way in which they view the world over a time frame of 1.5 hours. You'll only alienate them. Rather, you give them a little bit at a time, in a way that they might buy into. Sure, they might not believe Dean's statement. And they might not believe other "surrogates" who say similar things. But after a while, they quite possibly will. It is only at THAT time that John Kerry, as the prospective Presidential nominee, is clear to voice these kinds of points of view. To do so sooner would be to invite that mainstream, slightly apolitical and misinformed voter to just write him off as some kind of "crackpot", rather than helping sway them to realizing the harm BushCo has done and the need to vote for Kerry.

[sangh0]

14. Are you kidding???

Are you seriously suggesting that the morally pure try to practice some empathy and see something from someone else's point of view?

You should be burned at the stake for heresy!!! How dare you entertain thoughts that haven't been approved?

:-)

[IrateCitizen]

15. I know, I'm wacky that way!

:spank:

[sangh0]

19. Repeat after me

"Do not try to imagine what other people think. You might end up agreeing with them"

[Guaranteed]

21. You're right.

Let's all think like dumbasses from now on. Great plan.

[HFishbine]

26. Just curious

You have a propensity to call those who have strong values "the morally pure" and it doesn't seem like a compliment. What label do you apply to those who are not guided by their values? The morally vague? The morally compromising? The value-free? I'm wondering because if the morally pure are contemptible, I'd like to know what alternative exists in your paradigm?

[sangh0]

29. I don't consider them "strong values"

I consider them weak, and IMO the weakness explains why they have to demonize those who disagree with them on moral grounds.

What label do you apply to those who are not guided by their values?

IMO everyone is guided by their values. However, most people recognize that their values may not be the same as others values, and that their values are not the only ones worthy of respect.

I'd like to know what alternative exists in your paradigm?

Not assuming that you have the One True Value is an alternative

[HFishbine]

34. Thanks

I hope you'll take your own observations to heart one day.

[ulysses]

36. what "weak" values are those?

[sangh0]

40. "My values are better than your values"

.

[ulysses]

huh?

I was asking what values on the left you consider to be weak.

[sangha]

52. In that case none

I thought you were asking about the weak values some leftists seem to have, not leftist values. Leftist values are fine with me. It's just some of the leftists that get to me

[The Magistrate]

17. Excellent Advice, Mr. Citizen!

Very well said, Sir!

"People getting their fundamental interests wrong is what American politics is all about."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[CWebster]

22. Yesireee, a sure way to 'hold their feet to the fire"

Why that would make one a despised "purist" (code for anyone entertaining unpure leftist thoughts). it is necessary to rationalize all instances of triangulation as pandering to the dumbed down( don't come right out and call them "stupid")

It is an unfortunate thing to have a good memory for the words of those who formerly were held in high esteem. An easy way to measure that would be how often sangha, et al currently are in agreement.

[IrateCitizen]

25. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over...

... and expecting a different result.

We progressives are marginalized -- even on these boards. Whatever we have been doing to this point, it isn't exactly working in regards to seizing political power. Perhaps that means that we should try something a little bit different -- perhaps looking at things from how others might perceive them, so as to determine how to best sell them on our ideas?

Ye Gods, that's heresy! The only viable alternative is to stubbornly plod along on the present course, content in the deeply-held belief that we are righteous in our cause, and that some day everyone else will realize it and we will suddenly achieve our progressive renewal.

For the record, CWebster, I didn't say anything in this post about "holding people's feet to the fire". Nor did I equate "misinformed" with "stupid" in any way. If your argument is so tenuous that you need to project views on to me which I do not possess in order to validate it, then by all means go ahead. Just don't expect me to let it slide without comment.

Furthermore, I have no problem if sangha is in agreement with me in strategy. As far as ideology goes, I still find plenty of disagreement, even if I do not always voice it, because I am aware that after the exchanges we have had it is quite often a fruitless exchange. But on the strategy side, I would rather find myself in agreement with those seeking to form coalitions rather than those whose primary goal seems to be to destroy them.

[CWebster]

28. Right--the DLC seems to understand that.

doing the same thing over and over.

Perhaps we should adopt their strategies--so you seem to suggest. Perhaps you suggest it to Kucinich?

For the record, no you didn't but that has been you battle cry: "We will hold their feet to the fire!" Don't think I would forget that with the charges of "purist" coming out of the other side of your mouth. And in the past you have protested the charactization of the stupidity of the man on the street. The backhanded compliment which slid right by was, in the past, I had cause to pay attention--

Speaking of doing the same thing, I will be at the demonstration this weekend, you can bask in the company of your new found kindred spirits that you strive to find common ground with.

Capiche? Something only a rude Eyetalian might say.

[IrateCitizen]

33. Even remotely suggesting I'm a DLCer is absurd, CWebster...

And you know it.

I have consistently maintained on these boards that there is a big difference between "stupid" and "misinformed". Despite what you may be trying to say in this post (to be quite honest, I'm really not sure WHAT you're trying to say), I have never strayed in that point of view.

Speaking of doing the same thing, I will be at the demonstration this weekend, you can bask in the company of your new found kindred spirits that you strive to find common ground with.

The only reason I will NOT be at the demonstration this weekend is because it falls on the same day as a renewable energy fair upstate. Forgive me for sacrificing my purity, but I feel that it might possibly be important to learn about technologies and practices I can implement into my life to live a more sustainable lifestyle -- and possibly, in some small way, help reduce the need for energy wars in the future.

I already know what group I share more common ground with. For the purposes of strategy, it does me little good to seek to shore up agreement with other progressives even further. As Bernie Sanders said in his speech at the Fighting Bob Festival, we can no longer be content with preaching to the choir -- we need to engage those who might not readily agree with us.

If you perceive a search for this kind of dialogue to be some kind of treason to the progressive cause, then that's your problem -- not mine.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Thanks for making this point where others of us have given up

I can form a consensus with people that are willing to negotiate even though we MAY disagree on SOME of the outcomes...

It does take time and commitment to swing the pendulum back and it takes a willingness to realize you may not get all you want in one sitting but you can keep AIMING.

I also appreciate that you CAN indeed stand in the shoes of the person receiving the information from the news who does NOT get all the facts and work this out from their perspective fully knowing SOME of them may come around.

Thanks, Chris.

[ulysses]

24. *if* that's actually how it's being played out,

that's fine. As long as *someone's* doing it. I'd be very surprised if that kind of a strategy passes muster with the aforementioned Democratic interest group, though. :)

[IrateCitizen]

35. I've read several articles advocating such an approach

I believe one of the more recent ones was by John Nichols in The Nation.

So long as Dean's organization, labor unions, 9/11 families, firemen, MoveOn.org, etc. are all criticizing the Bush administration in no uncertain terms, there isn't a real need for Kerry to do it. In fact, it frees him up to continue much more of the personal, "town hall" style campaign that he has been concentrating on recently, and to concentrate on a positive message based on what he would DO rather than what he OPPOSES.

Hell, even if Nader is in the race and sticks to his word to attack Bush from a perspective that the Democrats cannot, it can only really help in this regard.

[ulysses]

37. while I agree with the strategy for the time being,

Kerry will have to go on the offensive himself eventually. I think it's a good plan for the nonce.

[Zinfandel]

10. NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO "SHUT UP" This is suppose to be a Democracy!!!!

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. are Dean's statements helpful or hurtful to Kerry?

THAT is the only thing that matters. I don't care what Dean says as long as it doesn't hurt Kerry.

[AntiCoup2K4]

39. Kerry's statements are hurtful to himself.

He's siding with Bush over someone in his own party who has pledged to support him. Not only is that a shitty thing to do to Dean (especially in light of the instant spewing of venom from the corporate whores) but it's a shitty thing to do to himself. Once again, if Kerry cannot establish a clear distinction between Bush and himself, he won't win any votes.

[sangh0]

12. Can you name any of these mythical creatures

that are saying Dean should shut up? So far, I've only seen one poster make that comment, and I beleive it's a Freeper

[sandnsea]

20. Yes, I'm a known freeper

I've wished Dean would shut the fuck up for a good six months now. He hasn't helped anything, it's the biggest crock of shit of this entire election season. His campaign platform, that most of the Democratic party rejected, is now used against the Democratic Party in general. Democrats rejected his stupidity and it's time he either stops mouthing the far-left unsubstantiated conspiracy theory line or shuts up altogether.

[AmyStrange]

23. Ain't gonna happen...

Dean ain't shutin' up, so I guess you'll just have to:

a) deal with it,

b) get over it,

c) just plain move on, or

d) keep complainin' and wastin' your time.




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[chocolateeater]

30. Thank you for the confession.

:evilgrin:

[AntiCoup2K4]

48. Thanks for the confession

:hi:

27. Sandnsea is a freeper?

thats a bold statement!

[sangh0]

31. I didn't say that

I was thinking of someone other than windansea

[ulysses]

32. then it looks as if you have your "mythical creature".

:)

[sangh0]

41. So is that what the fuss is all about?

One poster saying Dean should shut up, and now we have to meditate on it?

[ulysses]

42. hey, you're the one that said it wasn't happening.

Are there more besides sandnsea and your supposed freeper? You tell me!

[JohnKleeb]

43. it aint me

I dont see posts all through out the board that say Dean should shut up. He should remain vocal, all the former candiates should.

[ulysses]

44. heh - hey, John!

Didn't think it *was* you. :)

[JohnKleeb]

47. its prolly just a few

:shrug:

[library_max]

46. Wouldn't it be more appropriate

to ask the one making the accusation to provide the proof? Demwing has asserted that people are demanding that Dean shut up. I'm with SangHo - I would like to know who these idiots are.

I sure as hell don't want Dean to shut up. His Democracy For America initiative is positively brilliant as a way to pull for unity and keep his message on the table simultaneously. He's working within the system and making the best possible use of his continuing profile, funding, and following. And he's taking harsh shots at Bush that Kerry, as the candidate, can't afford to take.

So other than Sandnsea and one half-remembered freeper, who are we talking about here? Because that just doesn't make Demwing's case that there's a need to stop people from telling Dean to shut up.

My apologies to Sandnsea, by the way, for any unkind implications here. I maintain that slamming Dean is counterproductive and just plain wrong given current events. But I remember a lot of Dean supporters asking to be cut slack because of feelings running high, and I suggest we might consider the same for Sandnsea.

38. Gotcha. /nt

[edzontar]

45. I also get confused about these "...ansea" posters.

Are they the same person?

[Spirochete]

61. dunno...

guess we'll have to... waitansea. hehe

[AmyStrange]

51. here are two of your "mythical creatures"...

In the following thread (who are NOT freepers):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x467727

jsw_81
31. Bottom line: Dean needs to watch his mouth

Kahuna
24. I wish I had your faith. But I don't. I don't think Dean..
"But for right now Dean needs to get off the stage. He lost. That's the way the game is played."



Add sandnsea (in this thread - who is not a freeper) and the person you think is a freeper. That's 4 people atleast - and that's only after a very quick look,

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and searchable missing person news archives:

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Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org /




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe /

[library_max]

53. Wow.

So you sifted through - what? - thousands of DU posts over the last few days and this is what you found? Maybe, just maybe, there's not a significant problem of DUers who are saying that Dean needs to shut up. On the very thread you cited, the original poster and the overwhelming majority of respondents were happy to hear him saying what he's been saying. As am I.

[AmyStrange]

57. Nope...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"So you sifted through - what? - thousands of DU posts over the last few days and this is what you found? Maybe, just maybe, there's not a significant problem of DUers who are saying that Dean needs to shut up. On the very thread you cited, the original poster and the overwhelming majority of respondents were happy to hear him saying what he's been saying. As am I."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I happened to see two in the next thread I read after this one and not the thousands you said. I quit paying attention after that. There maybe many more or no more than the four I mentioned in my post.

The person I responded to on this thread wanted to know "who these mythical creatures" the thread starter was talking about. Well in my world, if you can find one "mythical creature", that means it is no longer a "mythical creature".

I personally don't want Dean to shut up either in anyway, shape, or form, and if you think there ain't folks out there being mean in Kerry's name, you would be sadly mistaken. Of course if you're ok with that...

d

[Democat]

49. How about this - instead of "shutting up", how about if he "coordinates"

Is it wrong to want Dean to work with Kerry, rather than possibly working against him?

If Kerry gives a speech on a certain day, don't you think it's bad if the entire news cycle that day is taken by some Dean comments instead?

The Democrats need a solid strategy to win in 2004 - that means that Dean, and all other high profile Democrats are going to need to work together.

To question the helpfulness of specific statements that Dean makes is not to tell him to "shut up" - how about just wondering if he could better work together with other Democrats?

[AmyStrange]

60. Not wrong... just not realistic...

I don't want Kerry co-ordinating with Dean. It won't work. Dean's forte is that he opens interesting avenues of discussion... not by what he says so much, but by the misinterpretation of what he says. If everyone agreed with him, there would be no controversy and (in my opinion) not as much discussion.

For example, his current predicament. Many folks still think what he said was HIS opinion of the reasons behind the Spanish bombings.

He was merely quoting the Al Queda statement of responsibility for the bombings. He mentioned this atleast twice in his interview, but there are many many people here (and elsewhere) who think and are helping to perpetuate the fiction that it was Dean's opinion.

He understood the reasoning behind the statement, but he NEVER said he agreed with the reasoning.

One of the best ways to begin stopping something from happening is to atleast UNDERSTAND why it happens.

d

(EDITED: "predictament" to "predicament" and added "One of the best ways to begin stopping something from happening is to atleast UNDERSTAND why it happens.")

50. This thread makes no claims about the numbers of people

who would tell Dean to shut up. Read it again. Those who say Dean should shut up could number 100, or merely one. Though, in every case of 1 person speaking out that I have encountered, there are several more people who feel the same, but don't speak out, for whatever reason.

That's the whole basis behind sampling in polls, and the reason that the opinions of 1000 can be extrapolated across the country, with varying, but generally dependable reults.

But, if one person here is saying that Dean should shut up, then, IMO, that is one person too many. However, I will not direct a thread at one person. I have no intention of picking on anybody. It's enough if I can get a consensus of people who agree that telling Dean to shut up runs contrary to democratic principles.

The 100, or the 1 will get the message.

Whether they head it or not is up to them. :)

[library_max]

54. But you present it as a problem that needs to be solved.

If it's one or two people, what's the problem, really? As you said, you wouldn't direct a thread at one person. Would you direct a thread at two, or three? Maybe it would be worthwhile to consider occasionally ignoring a remark you don't agree with.

[AmyStrange]

58. Not a problem to solve, but a problem to be aware of...

because these folks are "pretending" to be Kerry supporters. I don't think they are "real" Kerry supporters... otherwise why would they work to divide us?

"Real" Kerry supporters know what the "real" goal is in November and that we ALL have to work together.

I'm not just talking about "pretend" Kerry Supporters, I'm also talking about "pretend" Dean supporters who act like the "pretend" Kerry Supporters.

Being mean to a fellow supporter's candidate is something we all don't need to have to deal with. We are and will be getting enough of that CRAP from Bush and his cabal for the next seven plus months...

Thank you for your consideration,

d

(EDITED: "these people" to "because these folks" and "be a Kerry supporter" to "be Kerry supporters")

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Dean shouldn't shut up. Thinking before he speaks so that he doesn't

have to consistently backtrack would be a grand idea.

[AmyStrange]

59. NSMA, even though I agree with your reasoning...

I love that Dean opens interesting avenues of discussion.

And please remember that Dean was quoting the statement from Al Queda (which he made a point to mention twice atleast) and that it wasn't his opinion. He understood the reasoning behind the statement, but he never said he agreed with it.

BUT, many many folks here CONSTANTLY make the assumption that it was DEAN's opinion and his opinion alone.

d

[TreasonousBastard]

62. Well...

far be it from me to suggest that he shut up, but I would suggest that the other side has become rather successful because they have a unified, if completely bullshit, message.

Reagan and Clinton both managed discipline within the party ranks, and perhaps that's what ultimately got them both two terms. Hate the DLC as much as you want, but it got us 8 years in the White House, and more votes for Gore.

So, the good Doctor would be a marvelous asset to the party and Kerry's election chances if he should only better learn the nuances of public speaking. If he was better at it, he might actually have been the nominee by now.

One can speak the "truth" and not be a clod about it. He is not speaking to us, the choir, he is speaking to at least 50 million uncommitted voters. And he'd better impress them, not piss them off or become a laughing stock with them.