Houston Chronicle: Clinton backers may find an alternative named McCain

[Maddy McCall]

Clinton backers may find an alternative named McCain


By FROMA HARROP


Despite the hard contest between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, party leaders keep telling Democratic-leaning voters that they have two good candidates. They are right, but one of them may well be a Republican.

Far from the pumped-up Obama rallies, centrists who voted for John Kerry last time now say they are considering John McCain — especially if the Democrat is the vaporous Obama. At least that's what many are telling me — and I'm telling myself.

One friend said he'd vote for the New York senator, and if she's not the candidate, then McCain. When I reminded him that he doesn't like Hillary, he shrugged. Another acquaintance e-mailed, "Hillary is to me extremely unlikable, but I do not regard likability as a qualification."

The notion that many Clinton voters cannot be easily transferred to Obama contradicts much "expert" opinion. But a Super Tuesday exit poll suggested there is something to it. While 52 percent of Obama's supporters were amenable to a Clinton candidacy, only 49 percent of Clinton voters said they'd be happy with the Illinois senator, according to the survey by Harvard University's Institute of Politics.

And at that time, the news media were still lavishing love on Obama. That situation is about to end. "He's the fashion plate of the moment," an editorial page editor remarked, "but fashion week is over."

Sophisticated commentary now notes the growing creepiness of the Obama campaign: Its aversion to substantive policy discussions. The sermonizing — "In the face of despair, we believe there can be hope." And the messianic bit — "At this moment in the election there is something happening in America." (That would be he.)

Volunteer trainees at Camp Obama are told not to talk issues with voters, but to offer personal testimony about how they "came" to Obama. Makes the skin crawl.

Centrists generally do not find cults of personality entertaining. The mass hypnosis reminds them of the mortgage frenzy — all these people buying into a dream and not caring about the fine print.


More here: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/outlook/5550837.html

****************************

Not me, and no DUers I know. But there are centrist Democrats that may see McCain as an option. :(

[MrRobotsHolyOrders]

1. Oh well

Clinton's polling vs. McCain sure seems to discount this editorial, but whatever gets you through the day.

[bluestateguy]

2. What bunch of drivel

The author makes no argument and never proves what she is saying anyway.

[CorpGovActivist]

3. Consider the source(s) n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

6. obama supporters have been yelling hallelujah all day about Houston Chronicles endorsement of Obama!

[grantcart]

20. I think this is an excellent post. It finally confirms what we have been saying all along

pls see post # 12


I wonder what John and Elizabeth would be saying about this?

[CorpGovActivist]

23. I'm just laughing at how hard the Clinton dervishes are spinning dross into gold...

... or trying.

- Dave

[grantcart]

26. Do they even read this stuff before they post it? We should be starting a

thread quoting this chick. It totally subverts the message she wants to get out in places like Ohio.

[CorpGovActivist]

38. Reading for comprehension for Clintonites...we'd make a mint. n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

39. I just rec'd the post to help it climb. n/t

[grantcart]

45. I have to go to bed but I thought you would be interested in the

thread below where the OP is arguing just the opposite that republicans are more likely to go Obama lol Craig


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4657109&mesg_id=4657127

[demokatgurrl]

64. How is that the opposite??????

They are two different questions, two different "movements".
Obama is conservative. Republicans who don't like McCain for whatever reason may feel comfortable voting for him, rather than for the more liberal candidate, Clinton.

[CorpGovActivist]

71. It requires an advanced degree...

... in common sense.

Do you have a Clinton bumper sticker on your Volvo?

- Dave

[CorpGovActivist]

66. The Clintons are a double-headed Janus, talking out of both sides of both mouths. n/t

[Window]

48. Right. It's a syndicated columnist's editorial who's based in Rhode Island

n/t

[CorpGovActivist]

68. All hat, no quahogs?

[Window]

69. LOL!

Peace:thumbsup:

[CorpGovActivist]

72. Hey, this is what happens when you've lived all over.

I can mixaphor with the best of 'em.

:thumbsup:

There's a reason Quagmire has a "little neck," too, right?

; )

- Dave

[robbedvoter]

61. Houston Chronicle has been one of the more decent papers actually, so yeah, I am

[CorpGovActivist]

73. Does the editorialist have the pulse of Texans, though?

Something to ponder.

I've got no quarrel with the Chron. They've done courageous work on Halliburton/KBR, and I know quite a few reporters there well enough to know that they'll give my info on the Clintons' financial dealings a good look.

- Dave

[TheDonkey]

4. I'm calling BS on this... sorry

The argument is still pretty weak. Someone said they would vote for Clinton instead of Obama but still liked McCain??? And then had to be reminded he didn't like Hillary to begin with??? Doesn't sound like a vote you can rely on.

[MADem]

18. My neighbor said it to me right before Super Tuesday. And in recent

weeks I have heard it from several others, to include a few old vets I know.

So you can "call BS" but you'd be mistaken. There actualy ARE people who are NOT ready to vote for Obama. They like Clinton because she's a Democrat, of a certain age, with a certain amount of experience--and, like it or not, that TWO FER factor comes into play. They think Obama is wet behind his big ears, frankly.

They like McCain, because of the points raised in the article, because he's a vet, and because he doesn't make them feel stupid if they don't know about the latest gizmos or the cool new things that all the youngsters are excited about. He doesn't make them feel like they're 'old and in the way'--and that IS how Obama supporters make people over fifty feel, often as not.

I went into a bit more detail about this downthread.

You call BS, and you could be "Clean For Gene" Redux.

[gaspee]

49. My dad

fits this bill exactly.

He's voting for Clinton in our primary and McCain in the general if Obama is the nominee.

He's 67, retired from Electric Boat building subs and likes Hillary Clinton even though he's a repub leaning independent.

[LostinVA]

62. That's my father, too

62, textiles R&D.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Oh....these are the folks calling the Obama campaign a "Cult".....

Must be a Hillary Press release! :rofl:

Clinton Bucks Trend, Rakes in Cash From Weapons Industry
By Leonard Doyle
The Independent UK
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/101907O.shtml

Ohio Republicans pulling for Clinton to win

If she's Dems' nominee, GOP faithful think she'll unite GOP
BY HOWARD WILKINSON | [e-mail]

One of the worst-kept secrets of the Ohio presidential primary is that Republican Party leaders have a candidate they are rooting for on the Democratic side.

Her name is Hillary Rodham Clinton; and they believe that if she wins the Ohio primary and goes on to become the Democratic nominee, she will be the one who unites their dispirited and divided party and gives them their best chance of keeping the White House this fall.

It is a belief that the Clinton campaign says is wrong; and they will campaign across the state for the next three weeks making the argument that their battle-tested, experienced candidate is the only one who can go toe-to-toe with John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee.

'HIGH NEGATIVES'

To hear Republicans tell it, they're rooting for Clinton.

"There is no doubt about it," said John Becker, a Clermont County Republican who represents much of southern Ohio on the Ohio Republican Party Central Committee. "There is nobody who can consolidate and energize the Republican Party like Hillary Clinton. It will get the people out and the money will flow."

Part of it is that Clinton has what pollsters call "high negatives."

A USA Today poll this month showed that as many Americans had an unfavorable view of Clinton - 49 percent - as a favorable view (48 percent). The same poll showed Barack Obama's unfavorable rating at 34 percent, and his favorable rating at 58 percent. The Feb. 8-10 poll of 1,016 adults nationwide has a margin of error of 3 percentage points.
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080214/NEWS01/802140346/1056/COL02

[redstate_democrat]

9. I TOTALLY BELIEVE THIS...

NOT!

:rofl:

[grantcart]

13. pls see post #12

[AX10]

7. kick

Many Democrats may abstain because they don't want this smoozer/bullshiter Obama.

[redstate_democrat]

14. Oooohh

I'm shivering in me boots! I guess Obama and his supporters should just throw in the towel now, huh? There's no way we can win, despite the fact he has won the last 8 elections and is set to pick up two tomorrow and at least two on March 5. What ever were we thinking to believe that Obama is actually winning just because he is ahead in the delegate race right now, not to mention the popular vote, not to mention the state count, not to mention the money race, not to mention the momentum race, not to mention...well, let me stop. I don't want to push anyone over the edge.

It must really suck to be a bitter Hillary supporter. That's okay, you will probably win another primary in a "state that counts" in a couple of months. Until then, hang tight and don't let the Obamamites bite!

[MADem]

8. I have a neighbor who has said as much to me. I thought she was an

aberration at first, but I guess not, as I've heard this from several others as well. And it ain't just the "sour grapes" routine, either, I don't think.

I have to say I completely agree with that "personal testimony" creepiness. It really puts me off. It's impossible to talk to Obama fans substantively--they don't know a thing about their candidate, most of them. And if you question anything, it's like dealing with Moonies or Hare Krishnas. They don't like that 'cult' word, they should stop acting like charter members of one.

I have said that I'll hold my nose and vote for Obama if I have to, but I will feel like a prisoner walking to his own execution when I do it--with that level of "enthusiasm." I really do not think he has the skill or the experience to go the distance. I think he is insincere, a Chicago Pol, and worst of all--unvetted. A candidate awaiting a Swiftboat.

And the cocky Obama supporters had better read this shit, and read it well, and realize that they're not invincible--this is starting to smell like "Be Clean For Gene" all over again.

All those geezers that the Obama fans made fun of as "irrelevant" and "status quo" and "old way" ARE "big enough and grumpy enough" to tell Obama and his punky young pals to PUCK off--and most of them aren't as willing to take the long view as Big Picture geezers like myself are:

Why might this group like McCain? Count the ways. He had the fiscal discipline to vote against the Bush tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, and the decency to complain that they unfairly favored the rich. He's OK on the environment, concerned over global warming and against oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. He supported tighter fuel-economy standards and opposes torture. John McCain is not an embarrassment.

Of course, much could happen before November. To try to make up with the right, McCain might hedge on the very positions that moderates admire. He's already vowed to make permanent the tax cuts he once opposed.

And there's the war in Iraq. McCain courageously slammed the Bush administration's early handling of it, and the troop surge he supported has calmed things in Iraq, at least for now. But he has yet to adequately explain why going to Iraq was ever a good idea.

On the Democratic side, Clinton might prevail and thus offer a serious alternative to McCain. Or Obama might decide to get serious and apply critical thinking to real issues in a way that appeals to wonky centrists.

What Democrats must understand is that their moderates now have another candidate to consider. And this slice of the electorate is big enough and grumpy enough to swing a general election to John McCain.

You wanna know how McCain could 'seal the deal?' He could promise to serve only ONE TERM.

That would give it to him in a walk--IMO.


Thank you for posting this. It's a little "ugly" but it needs to be said.

[Political Heretic]

10. Possibly in Texas.

I think this year the number of Democrats voting for a Republican will be record-breakingly small.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

11. Clinton, McCain - whats the difference?

not much.

More attacks on other countries launched (since WWII) during Bill's terms.

Hillary will continue the US presence in Iraq to protect the Oil companies.

Democrats (some) will think they actually won something.

Nothing will change.

[polpilot]

63. No difference. If Clinton wins Poppy Bush will continue on nthe links w/Bill and give him Hillary's

marching orders.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redstate_democrat]

16. So...I guess it is confirmed.

HILLARY/MCCAIN 08

"Experienced" and Ready to Invade on Day One!

[LadyVT]

15. Yep. I've heard this a lot.

The Democratic party is in REAL trouble this year, no matter which way it goes, and it's largely because of the splitting, the black and white, good and bad, pure and evil thinking as exemplified in this forum.

[grantcart]

32. yup except the numbers show that twice as many people are voting for dems than reps

But I agree Hillary is much closer to McCain than she is Obama and everyone involved in the primary should be informed.

[LadyVT]

33. in the PRIMARIES... and remember,

there was just a thread which quoted Time Magazine as reporting that Republicans have registered Democratic in order to participate in these primaries. No one checks the "true" identity of any voter's party, of course.

[grantcart]

41. Every single commentatory agrees that there has never been in the

history of American elections this much enthusiasm as is being expressed in democratic primaries. Your argument that it is somehow limited to crossovers or primaries is completely undermined by the huge numbers of people that are making financial contributions and showing up by the tens of thousands in arenas across the country.

A historical realignment with new leadership is happening. You can help lead or you can follow or get out of the way, but what is happening is greater than all of the little postings in DU. Be dismissive if that is your inclination but what is happening is as large as Selma 63 or 1968.

[dailykoff]

17. So Hilly's base is basically Republican?

Funny, that's what I've been saying all along. :shrug:

[MADem]

22. Obama's the one getting all those GOP crossover votes in VA, though.

Hmmmmm?

:shrug: indeed.

[dailykoff]

28. While Hilly's votes go to McCain.

Doesn't leave much for her does it?

[MADem]

29. Well, if they're going to McCain, they aren't going to Obama in the general, are they?

That just might be problematic.

I don't expect you to comprehend the issue, though. You're one of the "self assured" I suspect.

[dailykoff]

30. Polls show Obama beating McCain and McCain beating Hilly.

Surely you've seen a few by now.

[LadyVT]

34. It is WAY TOO EARLY to be looking at polls; we've learned that already, right?

[dailykoff]

35. Fine, ignore them.

My experience is that they're inaccurate mainly when votes are counted by private companies.

[Maddy McCall]

36. It's also myopic of them to disregard the message here by just claiming...

that Hillary voters are closet Republicans.

That's not the point of this article. The point of this article is that moderates who might vote for Clinton will NOT vote for Obama because they don't like the mystery and cultishness of his campaign. That they might choose McCain over Obama because of that.

But let them keep thinking that this is about Hillary and her supporters being "Republicans." That will only hurt them in the GE.

[MADem]

43. More than myopic. Petulant and childish. The internet equivalent of

sticking the old fingers in the ears and doing the "NANANAANANANANANAANA I can't HEEEEEAR you!" routine.

McCain does speak plainly. He identifies problems and offers solutions. He's not a "process" guy, he is a "problem-solution" guy. Very "Navy" that way, he is. It might appeal. And it might appeal even more if it is contrasted against "Hopes, Dreams, Visions, La La, Love, Love, Love, Fired UP, Ready to Go, Yes We Can, Hope, Dreams...oh, and plenty of CHANGE!!!" :eyes:

I found it telling that the FIRST fucking line of shit that squirted out after the presentation of this very down-to-earth piece was "Ewwww, Hillary/Republicans" nonsense. And then, the 'personal insult' challenge--are YEEEW gonna vote RePUB-li-CAN??? YEW MUST be a RePUBleeCAN, mustn't YEW!!!!!

It is so fucking...ASININE trying to talk to some of these "Lord of the Flies" kids. They're just DENSE. Obtuse. If you aren't IN the little club, you're the ENEMY!

It's ... maddening! Certainly not conducive to party unity, either.

[MADem]

42. Polls showed Kerry beating Bush, too. I saw a TON of those. You can too.

Just check the DU archives. It was everything short of CAKEWALK and WE'LL BE GREETED AS LIBERATORS.

They haven't had a single debate. And McCain can handle himself in those contests. Good luck Swiftboating him, too. He's VETTED.

If the geezers decide they like the cut of McCain's jib, Obama is fucked. And Obama hasn't done ANY outreach to geezers. In fact, he's denigrated them, with the 'status quo' and 'old ideas' bullshit, and the anti-boomer snark.

And, like I said, the way the Obama fans--the supporters-- are insulting the elderly, they just might drive them off too.

That chicken-counting before the hatching is always problematic.

[redstate_democrat]

31. Soooo

what about all the hundreds of thousands of Democratic voters that would simply NOT vote in the GE or vote for the Green party candidate if Hillary is the nominee?

Works both ways. In the words of the Hillary campaign, "What's good for the goose..."- attributed to Hillary Campaign. (Don't want to plagiarize).

[MADem]

40. Sooooo....hundreds of thousands, eh?

Of course, "hundreds of thousands" aren't very many. MILLIONS of people vote in these contests. A few hundred thousand peeling off might not make the difference. Remember, Gore won by half a million votes.

Of course, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your few hudred thousand DO make a difference. In this case, you're presenting me with two choices...let's see, President McCain, or .... President McCain.

No wonder Johnny is smiling so much lately.

[nonconformist]

46. It's an anti-Obama vote. Open your eyes. nt

[dailykoff]

51. It's a pro-war vote, and McCain is apparently getting it.

Sorry.

[woolldog]

19. This goes against all the evidence that I've seen.

[FlyingSquirrel]

21. Maybe that explains why she loses to him in nearly every head-to-head poll

If there's little difference between the two for independents, looks like there's just enough difference that they choose him over her. Meanwhile Dems stay away in droves while Repugs show up in droves. That'll make for a wonderful November.

I'll tell you what makes MY skin crawl, it's hearing the crap spewed every day by some Hillary backers........

[FrenchieCat]

24. There are different types of Independents......

there are those who like the war, and those who hate it. If HIllary is the nominee, they all will vote for McCain. If OBama is the Nominee, the ones who hate the war will vote for Obama. It really is that simple.

[emilyg]

25. I hear this a lot from my neighbors.

[lligrd]

27. Maybe They Can All Join The Lieberman Party nt

[meow mix]

37. great thread

kick

[MADem]

44. Concur. It is a topic worth discussing. NT

[casus belli]

47. At some point, they'll grow tired of writing his political obituary.

Or then again, maybe they enjoy being proven wrong over and over again. This amounts to political hyperbole - and it simply isn't supported by the actual results.

[PDittie]

50. Shilling for Hillary

"What Democrats must understand is that their moderates now have another candidate to consider. And this slice of the electorate is big enough and grumpy enough to swing a general election to John McCain."

False. All polling contradicts this premise. The most recent polling suggests precisely the opposite: Obama defeats McCain handily, while Clinton trails the Republican slightly.

Whatever the amount of Democratic centrists who choose to bail on Obama happens to be, their miniscule number will be overcome by the legions of new and mobilized youth and minority voters, as well as by conservatives making the switch. A much more obvious trend verified by actual turnout, if Ms. Harrop had bothered to look at, you know, results of states who've already voted.

If Froma had to do a story based on anecdotal evidence (the 52-49 poll she cites is laughably interpreted by her as a "majority" considering the MoE could flip it the other way), then let's hear about the effect of Hillary Clinton at the top of the November ticket on downballot Democrats. Because that evidence is overwhelming.

As for "centrists" -- personally I prefer 'squishy moderates' -- Jim Hightower said it best: "There's nothing in the middle of the road but yellow stripes and dead armadillos."

[aaroh]

52. clintons are getting desperado

[dailykoff]

53. con queso

:puke:

[Obamaniac]

54. The centrists won't support McCain...

...because they'll be committing political suicide.

I'm assuming we're talking about the DLC folk here. Most already support Obama, but a handful in the leadership position may support McCain the way Lieberman did. I'm talking about From and his group here. If they should, they'll be finished. These people are too arrogant to realize that they hold no influence among the electorate. Their influence exists on a policy stand point among politicians. These people needed the Clintons more than the Clintons needed them. The Clintons kept them around.

If they choose McCain it won't even cause a ripple. The only thing it'll accomplish is that it will end their role within the Democratic Party. They will have proven, once again, how inept they are politically, by choosing to be in the minority when we Democrats are poised to win back the majority and total political domination.

This is just more grandstanding on their parts.

I find it funny how Clinton supporters seem to be celebrating this development. It only proves what I have always thought about them...If they can't have the Presidency, no other Democrat can either.

[paperbag_ princess]

55. my husband is one of this group

He is getting much more moderate as he ages. This cycle he said that he wants to support McCain because he is tired of not having a veteran in office. Experience is important to him. I convinced him that he should support Hillary, and he agreed that she would do a good job. He recognizes that Obama has similar positions on issues as Hillary, but he just does not trust him as an unknown.

He sees the Obama movement as touchy feely...pie in the sky. If Hillary doesn't win then he is voting for McCain. This would be the first time ever...we are both life long dems

I am still trying with a force of will to support Obama if Hillary doesn't win....I am just so livid at the treatment by Obama supporters. It is requiring a concerted effort on my part not to say "bleep you" ....you don't derserve my support...you wouldn't know how to be a gracious winner if it bit you in the butt.


I am still hoping for a Hillary win even though it looks uphill...

[Skwmom]

56. They must really think the American public is stupid. I know

several people who will vote for Obama in the primary and general election but will vote for McCain over Clinton.

[Perry Logan]

57. Deleted.

[babylonsister]

58. McCain himself has said this; I laughed, but there could be more

to it. In my head, no Dem could vote for this warmonger, but what do I know.

[thesubstanceofdreams]

59. Clinton supporters dismiss CONSISTENT, SERIOUS POLLS

But take anecdotal evidence as proof that Hillary is more electable.
This can only be described as BULLSHIT.

[Tesha]

60. I never doubted it for a moment. Faced with a real Democrat, the DLCers vote for the Republican.

They proved it in Connecticut where they voted for Joe
Lieberman (who is now, for all intents and purposes, a
Republican).

And they'll prove it nationally if Barack is the Democratic
Candidate.

Can we finally stop listening to what the DLC tells us
about how we should run the DEMOCRATIC Party?

Tesha

[Tellurian]

65. "The Vaporous Obama"...

Obama's strength of speech making is going to become another of his weaknesses...

The condemnation of his plagiarizing and copying rivals policy is going to be a millstone around his neck for the the rest of his life...if there is a political career remaining at the end of his campaign..

[More Than A Feeling]

67. I'm sure no Clinton supporters on DU would do that after all the lectures

on party unity and requests for party loyalty oaths from some of them over the past year. Right?

[Beacool]

70. It's not much different from what I have heard from other people.

There are several people who I have heard say that they find the whole Obama-mania uncomfortable and that they want a president, not a leader of a cult.

Furthermore, to my great surprise, I have heard more than one Democrat say that if Obama is the candidate they prefer to vote for McCain. They contend that he's a moderate and "not so bad".

Me, I won't vote for a Republican, so I guess that I'm not voting in a presidential race for the first time in my adult life.

Oh well.........

[THUNDER HANDS]

74. OF COURSE CLINTON VOTERS DON'T LIKE HIM

he pooped in the coronation pool.

This was supposed to be wrapped up by now. Cliton was supposed to put him to bed after Super Tuesday like a petulant child who stayed up too last past his bedtime.

Oh well.

[HeraldSquare212]

75. What's he referencing, a handful of people?

Even that poll he references is being misconstrued - not being happy regarding your party's nominee does not necessarily mean you'll vote for the other party's nominee. I'd wager it's more likely to mean that some might not vote at all, and most will hold their nose when doing so.