There will be HELL to PAY if FL is not represented at the Convention!

[boston bean]

You can cry, scream, yell, plead that the very act of democrats voting is throwing the election to Hillary.

But you will not be heard over the roar of the people who said let Florida's votes be counted.

It will be like 2000 all over again, but this time it will be our own party hacks preventing their own voters votes from being counted.

If this election is swung to Obama by not counting votes in Florida, you can kiss the 2008 election away.

[Captain Hilts]

1. It would be just as bad as permitting the DNC's House of Lords decide it. Unfair. nt

[NastyRiffraff]

30. This is a horrible, complex issue

And it won't be easily solved. Dean has been doing everything possible to get those delegates seated, while still upholding, as he must, the original ruling.

Nobody wants Florida or Michigan left out; that would be crazy. However, both states were told in no uncertain terms that their delegates would NOT be seated as a result of the primary dates of their choosing. They were warned again and again not to do it; they did it anyway. Dean can't back down on this one, otherwise the next election cycle will be a free-for-all, with states holding primaries whenever they want, because the precident tells them that there will be no consequences from doing so.

Dean is in a very difficult position, not of his making. He did everything possible to prevent this; look to the FL and MI state parties for blame. The voters in those states, though, have a right to be heard. There has to be some sort of compromise that will probably make no one happy, but delegates will be seated. I feel for the voters more than anyone else; although they were told their primaries wouldn't count, they had no part in any decision. I'd be angry, too, but angry at my state's party, not at Dean or any candidate.

[Captain Hilts]

52. VERY true. Just writing off MI and FLA seems unfair. First, they should fire their party heads...

then Dean needs to be slapped for letting this happen. It happened on his watch.

For example, their gripe is a legitimate one. The five biggies: NY,FL, TX, MI and Cal need to have a lottery like the three lousiest teams in the NBA have. Two get to go early and the other three have to wait.

Calif's vote is so late as to be useless. Not fair to them.

NH and Delaware and RI should go first because they're small enough to handle by less well-known candidates.

[NastyRiffraff]

59. Why should Dean be slapped?

Both states, along with every other state, signed off on the rules. Florida and Michigan chose to ignore them, even though they were told in no uncertain terms what would happen. I'm sure Pennsylvania wasn't happy about their position in the lineup, but they didn't ignore the rules and go their own way.

In the future, I'm all for rotation on primary states and their positions. I've never understood why NH and IA HAVE to be first. I know it's "tradition," but so what? The worst reason in the world for doing something is because "we've always done it that way."

But primary reform is not now. You don't change the rules in the middle of the game. Florida and Michigan, not Dean, did so. Their voters should be furious at their state parties.

[Captain Hilts]

61. He's captain of the great ship DNC. It happened on his watch. nt

[sendero]

87. Dean is doing what he had to do..

.. FL and MI did the crime, they can do the time. Nothing would make me happier, especially, to see FL get nothing. They deserve it richly for being the epicenter of the Bush fiasco.

[WillyT]

2. Ok... And Thanks...

:evilgrin:

[NJObamaWoman]

5. lmao

[NJObamaWoman]

3. Its unfair that there are people who didn't vote in florida because

they were told that it wouldn't count anyway. Why not have a redo? Why is the Clinton campaign so against that.

[boston bean]

11. it would be unfair to hold elections again. There is never a re-do in political elections.

Plus O said he would seat the FL delegation way back when until he lost and flip flipped.

[NJObamaWoman]

45. this is not a general election. This is a primary. A contested primary

and now it should be a re-do. If everyone wants them to be seated than the simple solution would be to re-do it.

[flyarm]

75. nonsense..Edwards was in our primary and probably he suspended because of it..

but Edwards was in our fla primary election..it was not a two person election!

no re-do..

this election was held and we had record turnout..1.7 million people voted..to do a re-do is an insult to all voters in fla..

we had an election..the people voted..

the only one who broke the rules was Obama..

so now after he broke the rules he wants to change the rules..well he didn't wait till the ink was dry on the sanctions before he broke the rules in Sept 2007 ..the day after the rules were commited to ..he broke the rules saying he would seat the delegates..

so now because he didn't win florida..he wants the rules changed ..after he put commericals into florida..the only candidate that did..

no...no re-do for the rule breaker!

fly

[bvar22]

133. Its NOT Obama who wants the rules changed,

Its Hillary.

[formernaderite]

135. apparently no one wants to pay for a re-do

which is not exactly...our problem

[socalover]

106. Why are you so afraid of a revote? Because Hillary will be beaten in a Landslide??? nt

[Windy]

17. why do you think they are against it? Their candidate would be beaten and maybe badly.

Massdem is one of the more viral clintonistas.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Windy]

27. You should be ashamed of your actions. Not who you support.

You are growing more juvenile and rabid by the day. You may need to get a bit of counseling. Do you really think that by your posting angry garbage on this website, you will change any minds?

Instead of sitting on the computer all day long, you may want to phonebank for Hillary or make some other positive contribution to her campaign.

[boston bean]

40. Take me to task Windy, It means nothing to me. just replies to me

show me that you may be speaking about yourself rather than me.

I didn't call out to you.

You called me a "viral clintonista" remember?


In the last 48hrs. I have made 2 OP and 39 replies. I'd like to know what your stats are and where you get off trying to bully me around. If you don't like what I say, stay out of the thread, ignore me, or don't reply.

[Hutzpa]

110. You are becoming very condesending on this board n/t

[Auntie Bush]

86. Me too. Proud that I have the good sense not to listen to all the rhetoric

ind see through the hype and fluff. I'll also be proud to have voted for the first woman in our primary on March 4th. You go Hillary...I'm with ya all the way.

[Captain Hilts]

62. "Would" be beaten? How do you know this?

Check out the demographics.

[jackson_dem]

20. It had the 4th highest turnout of any state. Compare that to the caucuses with 4 people Obama won

[NJObamaWoman]

43. and it might have an even high turn out because not its official and real.

still see no problem with re-do.

[jackson_dem]

47. It had higher turnout than the "real" rethug election in Florida

Not to mention the caucuses Obama won with about 500 voters.

[NJObamaWoman]

56. What do they have to do with anything. If you count those than

it still means that the party is disenfranchising people in florida for the people who didn't vote because they thought their vote wouldn't matter anyway. A re-do will be the best way to get EVERYONE there. I don't care about the caucuses states Obama won or the Repubs. I care about ALL the florida voters who want to vote. The people who did vote and the people who did not think their votes would count so they didn't.

If seems like you want to disenfranchise voters who didn't vote and want to vote now under a real non contested primary. If you really cared about Dem voters than you and your candidate would want EVERYONE in florida to have their say under a non contested primary.

[jackson_dem]

57. Should NJ revote because it had lower turnout than Florida?

You don't play the game again because it is to your advantage. Obama lost fair and square (everyone else was fair and square. He wasn't but he still lost). He wants a revote because he is stronger now than he was won he lost by 300,000 votes despite cheating.

[NJObamaWoman]

68. No because NJ wasn't contested. Florida was contested so they should vote

Leave my state out of it because they aren't in the same position as florida and mich. My state wasn't contested nor did they have their delegates stripped.

[flyarm]

80. no re-do..we al;ready voted..what part of that do you not get? and we had more than two viable

candidates to vote for..a re-do would totally changed what and who we voted for.

that is disenfranchising Edwards voters!

why would we re-do an election we already had?

no...end of story..go re-do your own state and your own vote.

fly

[Hutzpa]

112. Then FL gets nothing, that'll teach them for shitting

on their own party. Siding with the Repugs just so the can disenfranchise voters.

[Tesha]

38. The Clinton campaign is against it because they'd lose the "re-do". (NT)

[flyarm]

89. oh bullshit she won florida overwhelmingly.Go stick with your own state and play the

obama bullshit in your own state.

fly

[Tesha]

100. Thanks for your intelligent riposte. (NT)

[burythehatchet]

144. this one clearly did not get her prescription filled. n/t

[stray cat]

4. In other words change the rules after the fact because rules are made to be broken

especially if changing the rules is good for you. I would rather see a real vote in Florida and Michigan with both candidates campaining and both on the ballet.

[NJObamaWoman]

9. Agreed. What is so wrong about this? I don't get why some are against

this.

[flyarm]

82. read this real slow if you don't get it..we already had our election...

so you stick to your state and revote in your state..

we already voted in Fla during a real election..do you not understand that?

we had 1.7 million people show up to vote..a record!

there was only one candidate that cheated in Florida and that was Obama..can you get that..are you still slow on the uptake of that?

we had three viable candidates we voted for during our election here in florida..now ...read this slow if you can't comprehend ..obama ..the.. only.. candidate.. that.. cheated.. wants us to do a re-do with one candidate missing from our real election.. no... thank..you..

now go play with your own state and leave mine alone!

[WilyWondr]

93. Cheated? WTF?

there was only one candidate that cheated in Florida and that was Obama..can you get that..are you still slow on the uptake of that?....Posted by flyarm


Please tell me how BHO cheated in Florida?

:popcorn:


These FL/MI redo/change the rules threads are getting more creative with each day.

[in_cog_ni_to]

141. He was the ONLY candidate to run ADS in Florida...which was AGAINST THE RULES. He cheated. n/t

[boston bean]

12. Both candidates were on the ballot in FL. Neither campaigned

no one was at a disadvantage, to make FL re-do their election in hopes of a different outcome will make matters even worse.

[KaryninMiami]

18. WRONG- we were told that our votes would not count- which is how we voted.

I voted for a candidate knowing my vote meant nothing- except for the satisfaction of knowing that I had made a statement about a candidate - but had it been an officially counted race, I would have voted differently. You can't change the rules after the game has been played.

As for campaigning, there was no one here pre-primary as in the rest of the primary states- that is except for Hillary who ignored the rule they had all agreed to by showing up the night before the primary for a fund raiser which included lots of press- but of course, that wouldn't be considered campaigning, right?). There were also occasional commercials on CNN for Obama because of a national media buy (which the DNC approved of), but otherwise, no one was here.

We either need a re-vote or a caucus. Period.

[boston bean]

24. So you voted for Hillary and now want to vote for Obama, # 1 reason for no new primary!

WTF

:wtf:

[BlackVelvet04]

51. huh?

"I voted for a candidate knowing my vote meant nothing- except for the satisfaction of knowing that I had made a statement about a candidate - but had it been an officially counted race, I would have voted differently."

That's strange.

[Hav]

70. .

I suppose what the poster meant was something like this:
It was made clear from the very beginning that this primary wouldn't count and that there would be no delegates awarded for any candidate. Still, as I like (for example) Kucinich's message which deserves to be heard, I cast a vote for him. Had it been a real race and had it been about choosing the candidate I want to win the nomination (and there weren't that many who had a chance to win it), I would have given my vote to Clinton/Obama/Edwards.

[BlackVelvet04]

94. thanks n/t

[Florida22ndDistrict]

119. re:

We had all the candidates on our ballot, even those that were out of the race. He probably voted for Edwards or Kucinich out of satisfaction, but would have voted for Obama if he knew the vote was to honored. What's so hard to understand about that?

[in_cog_ni_to]

142. Fund Raising ...CLOSED fund raising is not campaigning. There is a difference. n/t

[SoFlaJet]

21. except that

hundreds of thousands of democrats didn't even bother going to the polls since we were told in every newspaper and local TV show that our votes weren't going to count for anything-you are in Massachusetts-what do you really know about what was happening down here anyway? There has been talk about a mailer going out to the 4.1 million dems down here where we can vote again-that would be the cheapest and fairest sollution

[flyarm]

90. 1.7 million dems did vote! no one stopped us. it was a record turnout. eom

[flyarm]

83. that is incorrect..Obama had commericals coming into Florida..

the other candidates knew if they made a national buy on cable, the commericals would come into Florida and would be against the rules..so Hillary and Edwards did not do a national buy..but Obama knowing full well what the rules were, said fuck it.. and did the buy..he did run commericals into florida.

so Obama did campaign in Florida..also in Sept 1 day after the sancitons were put in place..before the ink was dry..Obama told floridians he would seat the delegates. and he also spoke to the press ..against the rules.

fly

[Florida22ndDistrict]

137. re: that is incorrect..Obama had commericals coming into Florida..

The only campaigning I saw in Florida was Rudy Giuliani's bus rolling through town as I was on my way to the movies. I did however see commercials by Clinton, Edwards, & Obama discussed on CSPAN's Washington Journal before the elections.

[DJ13]

6. Then agree to the caucuses Dean proposed

.....or get over it and forget having them count.

Those are the only two viable choices at this time.

[SoFlaJet]

25. but but but....

caucuses are UNFAIR to Clinton so what to do? How about a mail-in vote as has been suggested?

[Hawkeye-X]

7. Even if MI and FL is seated

It *STILL* goes Obama's way - not Hillary's way.

Hawkeye-X

[boston bean]

14. So Obama will agree with you Hawk! nt

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

42. Does Hillary WANT to win the SOVIET style Michigan election?

where she ran against herself pretty much?

[nonconformist]

64. Oh, the irony of your user name. nt

[Tatiana]

8. THEY CAN VOTE AGAIN. Then FL will be legitimately represented. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. NO. They already voted. There's no re-do just because Obama followers want one. n/t

[stevietheman]

161. No. They. Did. Not. Already. Vote.

And you know it. A lot of Democrats stayed at home because they knew the delegates weren't going to be decided from the vote. To accept these delegates would be undemocratic.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Hi, MassDemm!

:hi:

[still_one]

13. and vice verse if they are seated without a redo, just watch what happens

[UALRBSofL]

15. MassDemm I don't know if you live in florida

But if you do, I was thinking of a grass roots effort to get our voices heard. I have a link of contributors for the candidates and it seems Hillary got the most donors and donor money of any of the democrat or republican candidates here in florida. I was thinking of calling these donors and see how they feel about getting involved in the effort. We need "solutions" as Hillary would say to getting florida voters heard.

[boston bean]

123. I don't live in FL, but send me a pm and maybe we can get something started.

[mckara]

16. Thanks for Sharing Your Opinion...

MORAN!!!

[jackson_dem]

22. If we don't seat Florida and Michigan they won't come out for us in November

Without them we can't win. All of this is because of two small states which may vote rethug anyway in 2008. Obama is putting his selfish interests above that of the party and nation. What would Gore say?

[SoFlaJet]

31. yea you're right JD

the democrats will protest not having our primary count by refusing to vote in November essentially HANDING the state to McCain-you people who don't live in Florida have no idea how we think-as proven during the 2000 election when you all called us too stupid to vote

[jackson_dem]

39. Electoral college

Bush won 286-252. Take away Michigan and the rethugs start up 303-235. Where is Obama going to get the extra 35 votes needed to win? If the FL and MI are disenfranchised if Hillary is the nominee it won't hurt us because our nominee fought for you guys. If Obama is it will be a huge problem. The other danger is New York. McCain could win New York against Obama. Give him New York and it is 334-204 for the rethugs. You have 66 electoral votes to fish for Obama? He isn't going to win anything in the South. Where will the extra electoral votes come from?

[Hutzpa]

115. It won't be a surprise there then,

since FL handed the election to Bush in 2000 and 2004. So they are fighting to hand over
again to McCain.

[Windy]

32. You're wrong! If you seat Florida and Michigan for the purpose of stealing an election,

then the voters won't come out. You can bank on it!

[jackson_dem]

34. How do you steal an election by counting ALL the votes?

[boston bean]

37. They want to steal it by not counting votes, my god, they really

do hold the republican line.

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. Nice threat. n/t

[Windy]

23. You really need to calm down. The shenanigans are not being perpetrated by Obama

And I find it amusing that you think you have the authority to speak so strongly when you are not from either state!

We in Michigan were told that our votes would not count. As a result, people stayed away from the polls. I'm sure that's the case in florida too. The results of both of these elections are invalid.

Either don't seat the delegates per the original decision or have a re-vote. Period!

[boston bean]

26. Listen, I'm as calm as a cucumber. And I have a right and obligation

as a democrat to be concerned about this issue.

We are all affected by FL and every state is going to be affected by FL in 2008 just like 2000.

[Windy]

29. You're not concerned about democracy. You're only concerned about Hillary.

That is truly the sad fact!

[boston bean]

35. That is your opinion, and you can judge, but I can tell you cause I know me a little better than you

do.

You're wrong.


But you are concerned only with Obama, that is my heartfelt opinion of you.

[johnnydrama]

44. then just

give her one more delegate per each state, and seat them happily.

But no, she won right???

So seating them isn't the problem, seating them with a majority for her is what is needed, correct?

[Hutzpa]

116. You wasting your time with Massdem,

Tu QuoQUE!

[Florida22ndDistrict]

124. I'm from Florida

Actually we had a state constitutional amendment dealing with our homesteads (property taxes), which is a very big issue in Florida due to skyrocketing property values, and homeowners insurance. We had all the candidates on our ballot. For the most part people voted the way they would have otherwise. I'm sure some voted for lesser candidates out of satisfaction of voting for who they wanted being that they figured that it would not count. Some may have even voted for Clinton being that she was higher on the list due to alphabetical order so that they could get to the constitutional amendment, but in large people voted how they would have anyway. Clinton was my last choice for president this year, and I find it hard to imagine voting for her, but I still want our state seated with 100% of our delegates because it is representative of our population. I want Michigan seated as well. If you fight to disenfranchise us, you are a joke. If you send us to convention with 50% of our delegates you are a joke. We are not slaves. This is not the three-fifths compromise of 1787.

[stevietheman]

162. Exactly right. Any other way and it will be war.

Seating these delegates would be very undemocratic and thus cannot be allowed to happen.

[CorpGovActivist]

28. Senator Clinton failed to demonstrate leadership, or demonstrate her "considerable" influence ...

... here.

She is a weak, ineffective leader on these kinds of issues, and unfit to be President as a result.

If she cannot come up with an equitable fix to this problem, she is merely underscoring how weak she is.

- Dave

[hijinx87]

33. a "mulligan" election is unprecedented and problematic

why stop at two? let's have three or four. do we put edwards
back on the ballot? his campaign was active in the first primary.
what about the local races and ballot issues? do we have a complete
do over, or a partial do over? and who pays for it?

what a mess. howard dean has done a great job as DNC chair, but he
should have never actually disenfranchised two entire states.

I actually hope obama cleans up in the remaining primaries, and it
doesn't come down to FL/MI or the super delegates. I have already
voted for hillary, but would certainly rather have a united party
for the general election, and this could get extraordinarily messy.

[stevenleser]

114. Its not unprecedented. It has happened at least once before

Need a link?

[nomorewhopper]

36. 2/10. nice try.

[mohc]

41. And FL and MI will almost certainly be seated.

But they must NOT have an impact on who wins. Declaring that they are going to be seated now will change the perception of how the race is going, netting 111 pledged delegates for Clinton. If Clinton somehow wins, she of course will seat FL and MI. If Obama wins, he will almost certainly seat them. If he gets at least 2208 delegates with FL seated (he gets no delegates from MI), he will be able to absorb seating FL and MI and will do so. If he is ahead, but will be under 2208 delegates with FL and MI seated, he will most likely be able to make a deal with some of Clinton's superdelegates to switch to his side in return for his seating FL and MI. The only way FL and MI do not get seated is if Clinton's superdelegates refuse such a deal, and then the fault of not having FL and MI seated will lie with them, along with the FL and MI Democratic parties for setting this situation up in the first place. FL and MI will be seated, but they still will play NO role in deciding the outcome of the nomination.

[UALRBSofL]

54. I don't know that florida delegates will be seated or not

The FDP is pretty determined and they might have a sit-out in the convention which is a possibility.

[anigbrowl]

108. It only nets 57 pledged delegates for Clinton

I think it's fair to assume that 'uncommitted' MI voters will go for Obama, since the electorate there already had a chance to vote for Clinton.

Put the numbers of the two states together and it's only a net of 57 for Hillary. Likely Obama goes into the convention with a margin of victory larger than that, so they can seat the MI and FL delegates as a courtesy bu they won't change the outcome.

[HooptieWagon]

46. You're not in Fla

I am, and I assure you there's no crying, yelling, or screaming... everyone voting understood the Fla Dem Party had manuvered the state into a position where they broke the rules, and the votes would not be counted. 2 questions for you: Why do you even care about what happens in Fla, and why do you continue to fabricate stories?

[cottonseed]

48. Over looking one thing. Hillary's firewall is kaput.

She'll need to concede soon. So go outside, get some sun, and laugh again.

[billyoc]

49. Obama isn't counting shit, and the DNC has already decided the matter. nt

[totodeinhere]

50. Even if Florida and Michigan are seated it won't be enough.

IMO Obama will have enough of a delegate lead that this whole thing will be rendered a moot point.

[sniffa]

53. There will be HELL to PAY if HRC doesn't win

I'm talking BODIES in the STREET here

[tammywammy]

58. That's more like it.

:)

[UALRBSofL]

60. LOL Bodies in the street

ROFL :crazy:

[WillyT]

66. You Nailed It !!!

:rofl:

[kid a]

84. PERFECT!

[Skoods]

55. ..

I don't foresee the Democrats winning Florida this election anyway. It's turning more and more Republican.

[cindyw]

63. Counting those votes would be disenfranchising the people of Florida

The many people who did not come out to vote that day. Counting those votes would be nothing better than reinstituting Plessy vs Ferguson minus the racist intentions. Hillary wants her voters to count more than others. That is just wrong.

[JVS]

65. If Dean caves on this, then the party will never be able to schedule primaries with any confidence..

that state parties will adhere to agreements. FL and MI state party officials should be purged.

[boston bean]

72. In obamaland maybe, not the real world, people like to count votes. nt

[JVS]

73. People also like there to be a scheduled primaries. Which can't happen if states fuck around.

[boston bean]

76. tell em you don't want to count votes and see how they react. nt

[JVS]

77. I don't want to count their votes from an invalid election.

There, I said it. Now MI and FL can blow me.

[cd3dem]

67. if Florida is not seated or they make them do a caucus.. it is fraud!!!

I am really tired of Obama people making all the rules about who is seated and who the super-delegates vote for... is this the democratic party or is it the republican party?

[stevenleser]

113. Most six year olds already know the answer and know you are full of crap...

... what we have all known since at least age six is that you do not change the rules after the game has been played so that your side wins. You need to stop acting as if this is some sort of new and disturbing concept.

[cd3dem]

138. The rules say, super-delegates vote for is whomever they wish!!!!

so if Obama insists on the rules... then all rules are to be followed and do not change those rules either!!!!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

148. Oh...we'll see the outrage if the Super Delegate rule is followed, yet they INSIST this FL/MI rule

be followed. They want their cake and eat it too. They want the voters of FL and MI disenfranchised by holding fast to the rule their delegates won't be seated AND they want the Super Delegate rule changed just in case the Majority wants Hillary.....or else THERE WILL BE HELL TO PAY! Threats, threats, threats.

[RamboLiberal]

69. There will be hell to pay in 48 other states if seating

FL and MI gives the nom to Hillary over Obama! I for one in PA will not vote for her in the GE in that case!

[ngant17]

71. The Fla. Dems broke the rules, Dean didn't just pick on Florida

There really was no reason for the Fla. Dems to move their primary up so soon, in any event they never got the okay from Dean and the DNC and whenever you break the rules, there are fines/penalties that have to be paid.

If I get a ticket for jay-walking, what kind of defense will I get if I tell the judge that I think jay-walking is unfair at this particular intersection? That's not the way you go about changing unfair laws. You have to at least try all legal and civil options first before you decide to escalate the situation.

[hijinx87]

74. rules? it's florida's primary.

why can't the florida legislature decide when to hold it's own primary
election?

[ngant17]

81. because states' rights don't apply anymore in political matters

ever since the Florida Supreme Court was overturned by the SCOTUS, wrt the verdict of awarding the Fla. votes to Gore in 2000 which should have put him into the White House.

[hijinx87]

85. that's silly. it has nothing to do with state's rights.

who is the DNC to tell florida when it can have it's primary?

but since you brought up 2000, aren't we the party of "make every
vote count"? what happened to that?

[blm]

78. Maybe Terry McAuliffe gets on TV and explains to all Dems since it's HIS RULE in the first place

and it what revoted into the rules in 2006?

McAuliffe is the EXPERT on this rule - does everyone KNOW where we can contact him?

[Major Hogwash]

95. Are you serious? McAuliffe is hiding out in North Dakota by now, herding cows, wearing sunglasses.

Hoping no one recognizes him.

[blm]

96. Actually, he's a Hillary campaign chair and has been since 2004...really 2000

but what's a few sabotaged presidential elections between friends, eh?

[Major Hogwash]

97. Wow, with friends like that, who needs enemies? She should have asked Rove to help her out.

She'd have gotten better advice and it would have been more honest about being dishonest.

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. Maybe the Florida Democrats who voted for the primary change should

have thought about it that bfore they voted?

[flyarm]

88. the primary vote was part of the legislative vote for us to get paper ballots!

we begged for paper ballots and in order for Fla to get rid of the DRE machines..this was the result.
the repigs knew damn well what they were doing ..and what bills they tied together.

fly

[The Backlash Cometh]

98. Eight years. That's what I have to say about that.

The Supreme Court already ruled that there was suppose to be a uniform method of voting in Florida. So if the Supreme Court ruled in such a way, wasn't the change suppode to be immediate? If the Supreme Court ruled that a man in prison was innocent, would you wait eight years before you let him free?

I'm sorry, I've just seen Democrats in Florida do incredibly dumb things, so sometimes I think that the incompetence serves someone's purpose.

[boston bean]

125. You are ready to make any excuse to not count votes.

The republicans are in charge in Florida, not the democrats. What would you have wanted them to do. Pass up a chance to have real voting reform in their own state?

You make an argument based on your tilted views for Obama.

Open your eyes once and a while and try to see the whole picture.

[The Backlash Cometh]

130. At this point, I don't care which of the two wins.

If you think I've been easy on Hillary, you haven't been reading my posts. I've been hardest on her.

As for the Florida Dems, a lot of them are Dinos, Florida style. They may call themselves Democrats, but once they rub elbows with Republicans in business circles, they suddenly get the same lust for skirting the laws for personal benefit.

MadFLoridian posted an article which indicated that the person who presented the bill was a Democrat. I trust MadFloridian because she has the emotional outrage that is appropriate for someone in this state, who is paying attention.

[David Zephyr]

91. Florida and Michigan took themselves out of the counting. There's nothing to count.

The DNC will not change the rules no matter how much Clinton operatives try to.

Nothing will change that fact.

The Clintons had better start focusing on winning legally instead.

[bunnies]

92. Right. Florida vs. the rest of country.

Florida wins. :rofl:

[Clinton Crusader]

99. Reverse the entire thing. Obama wins FL, they dont count. Now what?

What do Obamaites say? Oh well, shucks, too bad.

Remember this from SEPTEMBER?

Barack Obama held an impromptu news conference after a Tampa fundraiser Sunday.
By WILLIAM MARCH and ELAINE SILVESTRINI The Tampa Tribune
Published: September 30, 2007

TAMPA - Barack Obama hinted during a Tampa fundraiser Sunday that if he's the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, he'll seat a Florida delegation at the party's national convention, despite national
party sanctions prohibiting it.

Obama also appeared to violate a pledge he and the other leading candidates took by holding a brief news conference outside the fundraiser. That was less than a day after the pledge took effect Saturday, and Obama isthe first Democratic presidential candidate to visit Florida since then. Obama and others have pledged not to
campaign in Florida until the Jan. 29 primary except for fundraising, which is what he was doing in Tampa.

But after the fundraiser at the Hyde Park home of Tom and Linda Scarritt, Obama crossed the street to take half a dozen questions from reporters waiting there. The pledge covers anything referred to in Democratic National Committee rules as "campaigning," and those include "holding news conferences." Obama seemed unaware the pledge he signed prohibits news conferences. Asked whether he was violating it, he said, "I was just doing you guys a favor. … If that's the case, then we won't do it again."
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/30/obama-vows-do-whats-right/?news-breaking

[crimsonblue]

101. I will be blunt. are you retarded?

It is the fault of Florida, and Florida alone. They knew the consequences and still chose an early primary. Voters were told not to show up because their vote wouldn't count. What about them? They've been disenfranchised just as much as those that voted.

[FogerRox]

102. SO its the 7th inning of the 5th game of the WOrld Series, and you wanna change the rules

Yeah sure.

FL & MI need to have caucuses in may, that way they can play by the rules.

On the other hand Obama looks to be ahead by More than FL MI, if so, they dont matter and your post becomes a moot point.

[AngryAmish]

103. Floridians have proven themselves unworthy of the franchise

Damn state should be made into a UN protectorate. A wise, appointed governor to handle the day to day care and feedings of the populace.

[sueragingroz]

104. wtf? /nt

[Florida22ndDistrict]

121. RE:

Yeah we're so unfit to manage ourselves that we have the 4th largest economy in the nation, and the 8th largest economy in the western hemisphere. We have a full percentage point less unemployment then your great state by the way. I'm sure we can handle feeding ourselves just fine considering we are the second largest producer of vegetables in the nation, we produce 80% off all oranges and grapefruits, we produce a quarter of all sugar in the united states, and are one of the top beef producing states in the nation. Oh my, what would we ever do without the superior guidance of Illinois. :sarcasm:

[JVS]

122. Hand the state over to Cuba

[socalover]

105. THERE WILL BE MORE HELL TO PAY IF FL AND MI ARE COUNTED!!! nt

Why not ask for a new election today instead of one where Obama's name was not on the ticket?

[anigbrowl]

109. Doesn't matter

He gets the uncommitted delegate from MI. Who else are they going to go for? Edwards is out. People already had the choice of voting for Hillary.

Clinton's net gain from both states is only 57 delegates. Unless she starts winning some primaries by large margins, that won't be enough to offset Obama's lead.

[MaineDem]

128. 48 other states followed the rules

Why should these two get away with breaking them?

I'm sure many of the rules-abiding states would have loved to jump ahead. But they didn't.

[krkaufman]

107. Perhaps we are doomed either way.

Because we're certainly doomed if HC wins the nomination only through the inclusion of the tainted FL and/or MI delegates -- or by the superdelegates overriding the popular, pledged delegates preference.

If Florida and Michigan want their delegates to influence the nomination, then both states need to conduct caucuses to determine their delegates -- because their previously held primaries were neither free nor fair.

[cooolandrew]

111. Florida has not yet voted the vote was deemed illegal it must be re-run.

[mysteryman2]

117. It proves Obama is a cheat

[blitzen]

118. Bring it on! #&%uck Florida!

[avrdream]

120. "...our own party...."

That's the sad part.

[Iceburg]

126. The "Dirty Money Wing" of our party ... March 3rd, Rezko starts talking/nt

[Maribelle]

127. I was wondering if the Governor of Florida could take Kerry to court?

The Governor tried so hard to get the message out to each and every voter in Florida that their votes would count in the primary.

Yet here comes Kerry on election eve, national television, saying the votes would not count. Truly pathetic of Kerry to do this.

So who are you to believe, your honest Governor or your lying Kerry?

[blm]

132. HAHAHAH...yeah - Kerry is the CLEANEST lawmaker in DC and NOW I KNOW you side with BushInc

because BushInc has been trying to smear Kerry as a liar for his investigations into IranContra and BCCI and CIA drugrunning for DECADES.

Gee - what powerful Democrats sided with protecting BushInc on those matters?

You really want to get into a discussion about what Democrats have served this nation HONESTLY, Maribelle?

[madville]

129. They need to be redone if they want to be counted

Florida probably would have voted similar to the current results at that time even if it did count. The argument that there was a record turnout doesn't hold water because the big news down here at the time was the homestead exemption/property tax issue on the ballot, presidential politics were running second to that. A new election now would give Obama a stronger showing, that's a given. All they have to do to be counted is have new elections. No way Michigan should be seated as is, you at least need to have something with everyone on the ballot before it comes into play.

I don't think the DNC can/should seat them as is anyway because it will throw any authority they have over the primary season right out the window, 2012 would be a mess. Either don't count them or redo them.

The mess this has created is going to help McCain either way, especially if a Hillary nomination crushes the excitement Obama created, people are already growing sick of our team before the real game has even started

[Maribelle]

131. One simply needs to look at the results in California to disprove your poor justification.

The Kerry/Kennedy/Oprah/Obama act did not fool Californians a bit. Did not fool the voters of Massachusetts a bit.

[Umbram]

134. I love the partisanship.

If the roles were the exact opposite we all know that the arguments would be being made on both sides by the same political hacks in the media and on this board towards the exact opposite ends.

The bottom line:

1.) We have a strong public policy for allowing the voters to have a say.

2.) We have a strong public policy for legitimate elections that follow rules that are set out in
advance.

3.) We have a strong public policy for not allowing states to continue to play hopscotch to the front of the line, thereby creeping the primary season further and further forward.

4.) We have a strong public policy for maintaining the legitimacy of the election process.

Where does this lead us? There are policy points that go both ways. Anyone who argues that the answer to this problem is simple is simply a fool.

The nearest I can come to something just (where just is measured NOT by which candidate gets an advantage, but rather by the degree the four above public policy justification goals are met) is to allow a do-over after a month of open campaigning and then use the Republican method of granting only half of the delegates (how else do we punish states that break the rules, yet have their votes count....)

Honestly, there is no good solution to this problem. The same hacks post once a day on these boards in contrived rage that the delegates will or will not be seated. One only needs to keep track of the username's of the OP to know in advance which way it will be argued - always self-serving and oversimplified.

[suston96]

136. Go here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=132&topic_id=4629063&mesg_id=4629063

[derby378]

139. Hey, I don't agree with the primary rules, but they ARE the rules...

Collectively, the Democratic bigwigs agreed to the whole IA/NH/NV/SC deal, and MI and FL tried to cut themselves in with an incomplete dance card. Didn't work.

I think the primary process should be overhauled. I once supported having all of the primaries and caucuses on one day, but now I'm open to a rotating primary schedule so that all states have an equal shot at determining who our Presidential candidates will be.

[Thepricebreaker]

140. WRONG! There will be HELL to pay if FL and MI are seated and Hillary wins... BANK on it!

[Skip Intro]

143. Bullseye!

[Vinca]

146. I will have a very hard time voting for Hillary as the nominee

under the best of circumstances, but if I perceive she's stolen the nomination by maneuvering to get the MI and FL delegates seated I honestly don't think I could pull the lever. I always say I'll vote for her to end the war - if I must - but I lose more respect for her by the day.

[in_cog_ni_to]

151. The same goes for Obama. He cheated, ran ads in FL, he CHOSE to remove his name from the ballots,

now he and his supporters want to disenfranchise those voters.

You insist the DNC honor the rule of NOT seating the FL and MI delegates, yet you also INSIST the Super Delegates NOT follow the LONG-STANDING rule of voting for whomever they choose to vote for...should it come to that! It's ridiculous. You want your cake and eat it to..... and I myself will have to think LONG and HARD about casting a vote for anyone who would do such a thing. You do NOT EVER disenfranchise voters...especially after 60 THOUSAND Florida voters were disenfranchised in 2000! Shame on the Obama campaign.

[Vinca]

153. I give up. It's like beating a dead horse. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

155. Of course it is. Any time you cheat, steal, disenfranchise voters and

try to change the RULES in the middle of the game......you will be met with resistance.

[Vinca]

158. Changing rules in the middle of the game - oh, you're talking about Clinton.

You got me confused for a minute.

[in_cog_ni_to]

159. Since you don't like changing the RULES in the "middle of the game"

then I assume you want the Super Delegates to vote for the candidate of their CHOICE (which is a LONG STANDING RULE) and NOT for Obama just because he MAY have a few more delegates going into the convention?

Rules are rules, right?

[cd3dem]

147. We know what happened last time the Florida votes weren't counted!

[1awake]

149. You don't get it do you.

the issue is pretty much moot at this point.. at least in the area of effecting our chances of winning the GE. The Republicans are laughing, and rightfully so because they know no matter what happens now.. its a win-win for them.

The Florida and Michigan leadership screwed up because they were to focused on personal politics. This is not in dispute in the slightest.. it wasn't Dean.. it wasn't Obama,, and it wasn't Hillary who created this situation. Why Hillary left her name on the ballet in Michigan, I do not know. Maybe it was to at least give the voters some semblance of a vote.. maybe it was a calculated move. Same goes for Obama in many respects. In the end it DOES NOT MATTER for the bigger picture. If those states are counted as is.. and it doesn't effect the outcome either way, the issue will die. But.. it it does, the same thing will happen as the scenario of the super delegates selecting the nomination. The party WILL fracture, at least enough to cause the election to go to McCain.

Yes.. if they are not counted in some fashion, we will most likely lose both in the GE, effectively costing us the election. I do not see how we can turn back now. One thing or the other will most likely take place screwing us in the long run regardless. There are acouple ways to mostly avoid this, but so far.. I don't see either side making such a move. And the only people we will have to blame, is ourselves.

[backscatter712]

150. Yet another Hill troll.

Who's paying you to spew this garbage here? Hillary's campaign? Or maybe Rove.

We've discussed this over and over and over again, and you shills or trolls or disrupters or astroturfers keep bringing out the same trash.

Florida's delegates were barred from the convention because the state broke the rules. They only have their own legislature, including the Democrats in that legislature, to blame.

But we'll be damned if we're going to let you change the rules in the middle of the race. That will work towards disenfranchising everyone else, especially considering that Florida's election can't be considered legitimate because its voters were told their delegates won't be seated, stay home, and because nobody was campaigning in that state.

Maybe if Florida held a new election, I'd be willing to advocate seating its delegates.

[tritsofme]

154. Someone who has been here two years longer than you is a troll?

Is this just what the Obama people are doing now, lashing out in random ad hominem attacks just because they disagree on an issue?

[New Dawn]

156. We do NOT need Florida to win the GE.

Gaining Ohio and Iowa over 2004 will be enough.

[tritsofme]

157. But if MI goes red, the McCain still wins in that scenario.

Even if we win OH, McCain wins if he flips NH and holds IA.

[Yurovsky]

160. COMPLETE & TOTAL BULLSHIT...

I fucking LIVE in Florida (most of the year) and in my county, there weren't even Dem presidential candidates on the primary ballots (just a yes/no on an amendment).

Fraudulent Florida CLINTONITE lackeys will be seated in Denver OVER MY DEAD BODY!

You want to cause a fucking riot? Just try stealing the nomination with bogus MI or FL delegates. The Clintonites knew the rules, they just figure RULES DON'T FUCKING APPLY TO THEM...

They are going to be in for a VERY nasty surprise in Denver.

[stevietheman]

163. RIGHT ON... if these bogus delegates are seated, IT WILL BE WAR. n/t

n/t

[cindyw]

164. Florida can kiss my ass. If they can't figure out AGAIN how to have a fair election

then, cry me a river people, cry me river.

After what happened in the 2000 election, I for on think it is time for them to be humble and stop acting like they deserve matter more than anyone else. In other words, learn to get in line like everyone else.

[GoldieAZ49]

165. then the 2008 election is over - McCain wins

take your marbles and go home kids, try again in some future election year.

FL and MI do not have ANY DELEGATES change that now and you can forget any hopes of winning in November

They need to schedule a new primary in both states, divide delegates equally between the two candidates, or go to convention 9 weeks before the GE with a battle that will show America that the democratic party is not capable of running a primary let alone a country.

Plan on loosing seats in the House and Senate as well, probably Governors also.

Oh, and congratulate yourselves on grasping defeat from the jaws of victory, while you think about how many years it will take to regain any credibility.