Who here agrees with Clinton supporter Hilary Rosen that Chairman Dean has been "weak"?

[Unsane]

and mostly to blame for the current FL/MI/superdelegate mess?

Make no mistake, a Clinton presidency will put an end to Chairman Dean's brilliant 50-state strategy for good. Goodbye dominant Democratic coalition, hello Howard Wolfson 17-state "bend but don't break" strategy.

[TwilightGardener]

1. That was a big insult. I heard it with my own ears. The Clintonistas

clearly want to wrest control of the party away from Dean and back into their own hands, with their "states that count, states that don't count" strategy of keeping the Democratic party barely breathing, as one Kos diary said.

[Cha]

54. I knew the freakshow clintons

hated Dean and this is the solid gold proof coming from their shill hilary rosen. Another damn good reason to keep hilary back in New York where she's less harmful.

[blm]

76. Clintons keeping party weakened to only serve THEM. That caused stolen election for Gore in 2000

and McAuliffe weakening the party even further the next four years caused 2004 to be stolen from Kerry and us Dems by even higher numbers.

[Blue_In_AK]

2. She sucks.

I heard it, too.

[roguevalley]

47. Gov. Dean's brilliant strategy has made our red state in play don't

you think, Blue? Along with the corruption stuff, putting resources in here and wooing candidates like Begich and Berkowitz makes us a possible flip over. Fuck her. I'm tired of people not being able to fess up. Dimwit can't and obviously they can't take responsibility for their own decisions and outcomes.

[Blue_In_AK]

53. I agree it's really refreshing to be courted by the national people

after being ignored for so long, and I think Alaska is closer to going Democratic than we have been in decades. What's the mood down your way? Democrats in Anchorage seem to be pretty "fired up."

[roguevalley]

89. very much so down here. for a conservative little place like the

peninsula (population wise, not area ... take that Texas! LOL!) I think people are LIVING for change. It isn't a shoe in like before.

[Political Heretic]

63. Don't look now, but Dean and Obama have the same philosophy

...no red states and blue states, just the united states were ordinary people have more in common than they think, and change is truly possible.

[Vinca]

3. Dean's 50 state strategy was brilliant and it seems to have been

adopted by the Obama campaign quite successfully. The "little" states do count. Howard's got a mess on his hands with Michigan and Florida, though.

[Unsane]

5. Obama is the ultimate candidate for Dean's strategy. it is a match made in heaven.

Rosen, Penn, Wolfson, and Clinton want to go back to the politics of yesteryear--winning coastal states plus IL.

Penn is scum; he essentially referred to all the heartland states that Obama is winning as "unimportant." Now there's a way to win an election, Mark. :sarcasm:

[Cassandra]

20. Nelson (Bushdog-FL) made Florida...

way worse than it needed to be. He's a Clinton devotee.

[Whisp]

32. call me crazy, call me paranoid, but I'm saying this anyway

would I be surprised if this was the INTENT all along?

a set-up?

collusion and all that rot.
what if the PURPOSE of the MI/FL flap is Exactly what we are seeing now.

Objective:
this 50 state thing doesn't work well for the Clinton's, so let's trash it.

blame Dean, then get rid of him.
and make up some shit story that Hillary deserves MI and FL.

No, I wouldn't be surprised at all.

[Cha]

55. Knowing all them by now? Of course,

it was and I'll bet madfloridian will have proof or something with the investigating she's done on this subject.

Edit I thought so..see post #39 by madfloridian! :)

[truedelphi]

34. Ditto.

[ChiciB1]

44. I Agree With You.... Howard Dean Is NOT Weak... But Remember WHO It

was that took credit for the 2006 wins!! Rahm Emanuel & Chuckie Schumer! That irks me, and Schumer is really BIG for Clinton!!

I hear that Emanuel isn't, but he was part of Bill Clinton's Administration, so I can't say for sure. I don't like him much myself!

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

67. Clintons only care about Presidency, seem to not want DEM Congress

otherwise, Clintons would be trying to win in 50 states too.

If Obama is on the ticket, at a minimum we will win congress, maybe gain some seats.

You can't get real progressives in if you only "win" big states.

You end up with a GOP congress, so all the Clinton Family members in the White house can't
accomplish anything then.

Just a weaker and weaker democratic party.

[billyoc]

4. Dean won't budge on MI/FL. He knows that the DLC must be stopped once and for all. nt

[LoZoccolo]

23. What does the DLC have anything to do with this?

!!??

[SoxFan]

42. Nothing at all

A lot of political noobs seem to conflate the DLC and the DNC. The DLC has nothing at all to do with the primary calendar or superdelegates.

[Melinda]

48. It was Howard Dean who said the DLC and its "New Democratic agenda" constituted "the Republican wing

the Republican wing of the Democratic Party" -Los Angeles Times, December 25, 2003

[LoZoccolo]

50. I think I'm going to take a break and enjoy my afternoon. n/t

[XemaSab]

99. Dean referred to himself in 2004 as "the democratic wing of the democratic party"

He also referred to a certain anti-populist group and their flunkies as "the republican wing of the democratic party." :P

[Debi]

40. Unfortunately he's not the only vote on what happens

That's up to the credentials committee at the convention.

[Hippo_Tron]

104. It's not really about the DLC it's about the party having credibility

If he let Michigan and Florida do whatever they wanted then the DNC rules would mean absolutely nothing.

[Window]

6. I heard it, but couldn't believe my ears.

Peace:thumbsup:

[MADem]

7. Well, he hasn't been weak in the big picture at all. As far as FL/MI go, I do think

he could have done more to prevent that mess. I got the impression that he failed to work with the states--he laid down the law and left it at that.

But then, I'm open to other views.

[jillan]

13. I agree. The Dem party is going through some rough times

as we all know, and leadership is needed.

[madfloridian]

39. No, he tried for months to work with FL leaders. They publicly blew him off.

I have lots of stuff but I have posted it all today here in GDP again.

He started calling them early on as the DNC knew they were working with the GOP. They would go on TV and public ridicule him. State legislators. Bill Nelson. Alcee Hastings. Karen Thurman let others control the party when she should have stopped them.

Dean called Gelber early on, Gelber laughed and told the press he did not represent Howard Dean.

Here is more.

1. Florida Democratic Legislators sponsored the bill to move the primary to January 29th;

2. Florida House Democratic Legislators voted in committee three times for the bill to move the primary to January 29;

3. All but one Florida House Democratic Legislator vote on the floor to move the primary to January 29; and,

4. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from DNC Chair asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”

More:

5. Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.” The amendment failed on a voice vote with no debate being offered.

6. Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January;

7. Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

[Whisp]

65. this is sounding like a PLAN to me.

and it is not in the best interests of the voters.

[ZinZen]

73. I think I read that Gelber is starting to backpedal

I was reading The Field and now Gelber may propose mail in voter ballots for Dems and Indys. MF have you heard anything about this? BTW, Nelson is a major bum that FL needs to jettison to the nearest pond scum.

[DJ13]

8. Hilary Rosen is a Clinton cultist

I've never heard her say anything negative about either Clinton.

The lady is a tool.

[bunnies]

9. She's out of her mind.

But everybody knows that Clinton & the DLC hate Howard Dean. That he's been so great for the party doesnt even matter to them. No big surprise that they would try to beat him down.

[SoFlaJet]

14. yea do you remember James Carville

gnashing his teeth after the '06 election saying more could have been done? Hey ASSHOLE we took control of Congress and you didn't think that was good enough? Now I guess we're seeing what really was behind that criticism-he was looking ahead to a Clinton '08 strategy that was being shown to already be obsolete

[Cha]

59. Of course, as a New Yorker we all knew

this was coming since Oct 2002.

[Cha]

57. Because it takes no Enstein to know

they care only for themselves and what the country can do for them.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. I think Hilary Rosen is blinded by partisanship

I also think her opinion is worthless.

Obama is running his primary campaign on Dean's 50-state strategy. And winning with it. Clinton, on the other hand...is the one who comes off looking weak, as a manager, as a campaigner, as a credible candidate for the Presidency of the United States, because she's blown a lead in polls and expectations into an all-but-certain loss through mismanagement, miscalculation, overconfidence, and lack of organisation or foresight. The only reason there IS a 'mess' is because Clinton has DEMANDED the disallowed delegations from Florida and Michigan be seated, and because she's all BUT demanded that the superdelegates vote for her. The fact that she's not getting her way doesn't make Dean weak, sorry.

[sundancekid]

11. Dean "weak"???? when pigs fly and Rosen gets an attitude adjustment makeover

[NC_Nurse]

12. I think she's full of shit.

It just hasn't helped her candidate to get more people involved in the process.
I think he's been great.

[madfloridian]

15. It will get much worse before the convention.

Her superdelegates in Florida blame Dean and the DNC for everything.

They are openly contemptuous.

[Cha]

60. Yeah, this is just little droppings from

hilaryland and they want to fight to the death of Dean's DNC. One of the best parts of an Obama Presidency would be keeping the clintonites' dlc outta the white house.

[OzarkDem]

16. False premise

I reject the premise that Dean will lose his job if Hillary is elected. That's speculation and rumor-mongering.

[HeraldSquare212]

17. I couldn't believe she said that.

Weak is suing grandmothers and 12-years olds for downloading music.

[Cha]

61. hilary rosen is a total liar too..

as a toady clinton shill trying to dissemble and spread bad seeds through her little m$$$m outlets.

[Unsane]

85. agreed

[NastyRiffraff]

18. I'm sure Dean could give a shit what Hilary Rosen says.

I support Hillary CLINTON, but I also love Dean...going back to 2003. Rosen is full of it.

[still_one]

19. Dean may have some problems, but there is no way I want carville controlling the DNC

As for the argument that Dean cause the FL/MI problem, maybe FL and MI should look within as to who caused it

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

68. or Carville's GOP consultant Wife, Mary Matalen

yuck.

[LoZoccolo]

21. Dean did a firm, but stupid thing.

Mr. Tough Guy should have known that he was outgunned when engaging in the kind of brinksmanship that he did. He will bear the brunt of blame for whatever happened.

[Cha]

66. NO dice lo zoccolo..you've never liked

Dean and always had something nasty to say about him. Dean has done everything according the rules and has helped Obama's campaign strategy with his original 50 state strategy since becoming the Chairman of DNC on Feb 12, 2005.

Instead of your kneejerk reaction to Dean you should actually study what went down in Florida. And, of course, miss hilary is trying to take advantage of it 'cause she and bil aren't winning when everyone plays by the rules.

[LoZoccolo]

71. I was a Dean supporter for the 2004 election.

I've since learned more about strategy, and can see that he majorly fucked up. Why not address the merits and drawbacks of what he did, rather than pursue an ad hominem against me? Even if I were to hate Dean - so what? Is what I say true or false?

[Cha]

74. Not ad hominem..I remember

your posts against Dean and here you are saying he sucks again when he's there's been nothing but praise for his strategy except from you and people who have an agenda against the DNC. Not, saying you're one of them..just sayin' I'm not letting your post go by without giving my view.

[LoZoccolo]

78. If you want to talk about something I said, go ahead.

If you just want to talk about me, well, not sure I want to waste time on that.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

70. Hillary is not responsible, she can't help if she breaks the rules

poor thing she is just a widdle thing who didn't know mean ole Chairman of the DNC
really meant for those rules to apply to her.

:sarcasm:

[LoZoccolo]

Not what I said. n/t

[Hippo_Tron]

103. The DNC would have no credibility if Dean had just let Florida and Michigan do whatever they wanted

IMO he should've docked them 50% like the GOP did. But doing nothing would have been a disaster.

[msongs]

22. "make no mistake" you offer no evidence for your contentions either nt

[southern_dem]

24. Rosen is the ultimate corporatist

and a bad salesperson for Senator Clinton. She really turns me off.

[JTFrog]

25. Mark Penn FTW!!!! She's inevitable and the small states don't count!!!! nt

[Diane R]

26. That was a cheap shot...probably scripted by Carville and his pals.

[madfloridian]

27. Have you noticed the new theme on the media?

It started with Andrea Mitchell, I believe, the other day. It is meant to weaken Dean's position in the eyes of the viewers. She said neither Obama or Hillary liked Dean, and that he was not relevant...don't remember exact words.

There have been several others, especially in Florida, pushing this theme.

It is going to get much worse.

It is going to be a dividing tactic.

[lisa58]

28. that really annoyed me...

...she's just doing what she can for her candidate - doesn't matter who gets in the way.

[BeyondGeography]

29. Who here agrees with this Dean supporter that once Barack and Howard are in charge

nothing will be able to stop the Democrats?

[Unsane]

31. Me!!!

[hedda_foil]

88. Me too! Absofuckinglutely!

With the two of them in charge of the party, we will have wrested control of the party from the moribund, corporatist and slimy DLC.

[XemaSab]

100. w00t!

:D

[droidamus2]

30. 50 state the way to go

I currently support Hillary but I also strongly support Deans idea of a 50 state strategy. One thing the Republicans of the 80's, 90's and now had right is their desire to dominate the political scene. They weren't happy with winning by just enough but wanted to have a mandate. They weren't always successful in achieving the level of a 'mandate' but it allowed them to get there message out to all corners of the country. It is political suicide to just preach to the converted and hope that will be enough for your candidate to squeeze into office by the skin of their teeth. You must take your message to the people, even those you know do not currently agree with you, and build a consensus. If you can't get the red state people maybe you can get their kids and grandkids. Taking the fight to the opposition in their own areas forces them to spend money and energy in areas they would rather not cover. Following the DLC formula allows the Republicans to go after just a few states ie Florida and Ohio to make sure the Democrats don't win. I believe we have a chance to make historically significant gains in the House and Senate if we support the 50 state strategy not only for our eventual nominee for president but for all Democrats running for office. Vote Democratic no matter who the nominee is!!!

[babylonsister]

33. She's a female version of Carville; I hope someone recognizes that

and pitches a bitch. There are many more people that could be used as analysts that aren't so partisan.

[grantcart]

35. k and r

[babylonsister]

36. Howard Dean On Super-Delegates: "Their role is to exercise their best judgment"

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02...

Howard Dean On Super-Delegates: "Their role is to exercise their best judgment"
By Greg Sargent - February 16, 2008, 10:17AM


The Democratic National Committee has given me what appears to be Howard Dean's most extensive and detailed answer to date on the role of super-delegates amid the ongoing battle between Hillary and Obama for their support.

Dean's verdict: "Their role is to exercise their best judgment in the interests of the nation and of the Democratic Party."

Yesterday, I posed a question to the DNC: Does Dean think that the super-dels should support the candidate who ends up with the most pledged dels, or should the super-dels feel free to support whichever candidate they think is best for the party and the nation?

The DNC sent over this answer from Dean, which I'm quoting in full:

Some commentators have misrepresented who the “superdelegates” are and what their role is supposed to be. While it's premature to speculate what will happen as the process continues to unfold given that there are still over 1,000 pledged delegates yet to be selected, let’s look at who Undpledged delegates or "super delegates" are.

They are a diverse group of individuals who come from all parts of the country and all walks of life. They are local grassroots activists, county Party chairs, and local elected officials. They include all members of the DNC, all Democratic Members of Congress and all Democratic Governors, and a few former party leaders - all of whom have been elected by the people of their states and districts. Virtually all members of the DNC have been elected by their state party committees or Conventions, who in turn have been elected by grassroots Democratic voters. These members of the DNC have earned their positions by doing the difficult, unglamorous work of building the party organization day in and day out, when nobody is paying attention, year after year.

Their role is to exercise their best judgment in the interests of the nation and of the Democratic Party. I am confident that they will carry out that duty responsibly and in accordance with the highest values of our democracy and our Party.


So, unlike other party leaders, such as Nancy Pelosi and John Lewis, Dean is not calling on the super-dels to follow the pledged dels. He doesn't explicitly endorse the position of either Obama or Hillary -- which is perhaps to be expected, given his position -- but he does say that "their role is to exercise their best judgment."

Late Update: Ben Smith argues that Dean's position "seems closer to Hillary's."

[madfloridian]

41. As chairman it was non-answer...the best he could do.

He is entirely neutral.

[jgraz]

37. These people will destroy the party to feed their ambition

Any true patriot and Democrat would see the writing on the wall and drop out. Hillary's scorched-earth policy is going to burn everyone.

[Debi]

38. I do NOT

Chairman Dean and the 50-state strategy brought us our majority in the House and Senate. Now, maybe everything hasn't gone as planned, but I'd rather be working with a majority then work in the minority. We need to keep the 50-state strategy to create a larger majority along with a Democratic President. Imagine the things we can achieve!

As for the Florida/Michigan mess. That was created by the legislatures and party leaders in those states who were well aware of the rules they were breaking and the repercussions of their actions. They all thought Dean and the DNC would back down. Now THEY have screwed the voters of their states. Howard Dean did not.

[stillcool]

43. Not I..

but I guess it depends on which agenda one is promoting...

The right wing current of the Democratic party, characterized by its neoliberal economic policies, support of Israel, desire to increase defense spending, and links to heavy donors and fundraisers.

Believes that "left-wing" positions are not politically viable. Describes itself as "moderate and pro-growth". Probably responsible for erosion of the Democratic Party's historical labor and minority base due to support of treaties like NAFTA, lack of support for affirmative action and poverty programs, and their siphoning away of campaign funds from minority groups.

At the national level, the movement was founded by the Democratic Leadership Council (501c4 educational non-profit, founded 1984) and includes the House New Democrat Coalition (founded 1997), the Senate New Democrat Coalition (founded 2000), the New Democrat Network PAC (founded 1996), the misnamed Progressive Policy Institute (501c4 think tank, "Bill Clinton's idea mill", founded 1989), and the umbrella funding group The Third Way Foundation (501c3 non-profit, founded 1996).

Since coming to power within the Democratic Party with Bill Clinton's presidency, the New Democrats/DLC have worked towards "essentially the same purpose as the Christian Coalition... to pull a broad political party dramatically to the right" according to John Nichols of The Progressive.

DLC operatives actively worked to sabotage Howard Dean's candidacy for the US Presidency in 2004, claiming that the "far-left" Democrat was wrong to attack George W. Bush's tax cuts and national security policies.

Corporate contributors to the DLC and New Democratic Network include Bank One, Citigroup, Dow Chemical, DuPont, General Electric, Health Insurance Corporation of America, Merrill Lynch, Microsoft, Philip Morris, RJR Nabisco, Chevron, Prudential Foundation, Amoco Foundation, AT&T, Morgan Stanley, Occidental Petroleum, Raytheon, and many other Fortune 500 companies.

The New Democrat Movement is sometimes referred to as the Dixiecrat movement due to the DLC's origination in the southern states, their desire to get rid of affirmative action, and their membership's overwhelming whiteness.

"Democrats should shift the primary focus from racism, the traditional enemy without, to self-defeating patterns of behavior among blacks" --Chuck Robb, 2nd DLC Chairman, Governor & Senator of the Great State of Virginia, White Man, 1986.

"I'm from the democratic wing of the Democrat Party" --Paul Wellstone, progressive Democrat, criticizing the New Democrat Movement.

"Democrats for the Leadership Class" --Jesse Jackson, progressive black Democrat, describing the DLC.

Official Website:
http://www.ndol.org

[LaurenG]

45. republicans have taught some democrats well,

play slime politics, don't tell the truth and steamroll all the really honest people. :eyes:

[Maribelle]

46. Dean could have stopped the hemorrhage in Florida and he didn't

Now it could be an uncontrollable loss for perhaps a decade or more.

[madfloridian]

58. He did stop it. That takeover of two major states.

Yes, he did put a stop to it.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

69. THE RULES ARE FOR EVERYONE BUT HILLARY - even when she agreed to them!

WE GET IT.

You want to change the rules, rules that Hillary lied and agreed to, to make cheating ok.

[PetraPooh]

49. I actually agree that Dean has been weak, but that in no way

encourages me to support Hillary or to give the Clintons or their talking heads any credit for noticing it.

[smiley_glad_hands]

51. Why I support Obama.

Despite my reservations.

[TalkAgain]

52. I saw that, she is an big ASS!

[MBS]

56. He's not weak!

I heard this, too, and was outraged.

[Coexist]

62. Hell no - Dean ROCKS!

[dcindian]

64. Sounds just like the Neocons taking over their party.

Clinton sure the hell knows how to divide and conquer.

[ZinZen]

72. Stick it Rosen!

What a Hillary wannabe if there ever was one.

[Unbowed]

75. I support Chairman Dean and his 50 State Strategy. n/t

[malletgirl02]

77. Virginia

The 50 state strategy is a good idea. I think it was a key reason why Webb got elected in Virginia, and also why it is likely to become blue this year.

[Avalux]

79. I think attacking Dean and the DNC is a really bad strategy.

She's attacking a man who has brought our party alive again and before anything else, we are all Democrats. BAD strategy.

[Yossariant]

80. Dean has likely cost the Democrats the White House. He is done.

[Johnny__Motown]

82. Any explanation for that rather insane statement? Hillary is the problem not Howard

[LoZoccolo]

83. Florida is a key state, Michigan is not as blue as people might think.

Piss off the voters there and you lose.

[Yossariant]

86. The Democrats look like idiots. I post on a mixed board. The center is deserting the Democrats.

For a while, they were with us. McCain is no Huckabee and he is now getting most of the independents.

The ordinary voter is not interested in researching the ins and outs of DNC political manuevering to judge who is right or wrong.

Dean should teach a course in "How to lose an election you can't lose."

[anigbrowl]

96. I post on several mixed boards too...

...and I think your argument is bogus. I don't see any crumbling of support for Dems because of the 50 state strategy or anything else. Centrists like Obama, including Republican-leaning centrists.

[Unsane]

90. wtf

[ErnestoG]

95. That's the dumbest fucking post I've seen here in a week.

And that is really saying something.

[Johnny__Motown]

81. Anyone not in lock step with the Clintons is attacked, why are you surprised?

Also I couldn't agree more about the 50 state strategy. If Hillary wins then 3 years of work is wasted.

[David Zephyr]

84. When nearly 10 million more Democrats are voting than Republicans I'd say Rosen is simply ignorant.

The Clintons and their calling most of America insignificant should quietly just slither away into hiding.

[Guaranteed]

87. About the last word I would use to describe the good doctor is "weak." nt

[Unsane]

91. agreed

[JVS]

92. He's not to blame and he's being strong against those who violated the agreements

[JI7]

93. i think she is the one who also suggested the swift boaters were telling the truth

she is a scumbag.

[ErnestoG]

94. Weak? The guy who almost singlehandedly got control of the congress back to the Dems?

Wow, what ingrates.

[workinclasszero]

97. The 50 state strategy

is genius.

Party discipline is sadly lacking though. Dean needs to crack down hard on the pols that want to subvert the will of the people thru seating the FL and MI delegates.

[XemaSab]

98. Chairman Dean

is one of two political HEROES I have.

Al Gore is the other one. :patriot::patriot:

[Florida22ndDistrict]

101. RE:

I'm found of Dean, but he should have handled this situation better. By the way, it looks more like a 48 state strategy here in Florida...

[Hippo_Tron]

102. I probably would've docked Florida/Michigan 50% like the GOP did

But simply allowing them to move up their primaries after the rules had been agreed on would've meant that the DNC would have no credibility and Dean did have to take a stand.

[Florida22ndDistrict]

105. re: I probably would've docked Florida/Michigan 50% like the GOP did

Yeah, because then we would be represented less then the disenfranchised slaves in early America who counted for 3/5 (60%). Whoopty Doo! Stop trying to penalize the voters. If a penalty is to be paid, it would be to restrict funding to Florida democrats in their upcoming races and support democrat opposition candidates to take their seats.

[robcon]

106. I agree. The 50-state strategy was stupid, and kept us from dominating the House and Senate

Well placed funds could have made the difference in 4-5 Senate races in 2006. Instead Dean spent it tilting at windmills in Alabama, Utah, Idaho, Montana, etc.

[tbyg52]

107. I'm with Dr. Dean! nt