How many in MI and FL abstained from voting b/c they thought it wouldn't count?

[George_Bonanza]

And if the number that didn't vote was significant, how can the results from those primaries be legit? It's like saying that a football game is only exhibition, then afterwards, claiming that it was the Superbowl. Well, if both teams knew, maybe they wouldn't have rested their starters after the 1st quarter.

[Mojorabbit]

1. I know at least ten people

who didn't. A few are family members who figured it was not going to count so why bother.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. Florida had record turnout

twice what it was 2000 and 2004. It's hard to say people stayed home.

[Lerkfish]

3. no, its easy to say it, its hard to prove it.

but being hard to prove does not automatically make something incorrect.

[Fresh_Start]

122. Florida democratic party site 'shattered record' for Presidential primary

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/amazing_night_for_democrats_everywhere

[Lerkfish]

153. still does nothing to prove how many may have shown up

all states are setting records. the turnout might have been much larger if people felt their vote counted for sure.

[stahbrett]

5. How about this

How about we just ban campaigning - just put your name on the ballot, and hope you've got better name recognition than the other candidates. That won't favor anyone, right?

[MonkeyFunk]

11. Do you think Obama and Edwards

had low name recognition in Florida?

[stahbrett]

18. Lower than Hillary - yes

Question for you - does campaigning have any effect upon elections or not? Just have the Ohio election tomorrow - no need for Barack or Hillary to be given a chance to campaign.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. yes it does

but since nobody campaigned there (with the exception of some Obama ads), nobody had an unfair advantage.

There are many states candidates won't visit during this election - they still get to vote.

Do you have any polling evidence regarding name recognition?

[stahbrett]

24. Do you dispute that Hillary started out with advantages that Barack has had to campaign to overcome?

It's simple - when he is campaigning, his numbers go up. He didn't campaign in Florida. Look at the polls in Massachusetts and California before he started campaigning there. Then look at the election results. That's happened in every state that he's campaigned in - he's closed the early built-in lead that Clinton has enjoyed in the polls. If you think that Florida would have had the same results with Obama campaigning there that they had without him campaigning, then I think you're wrong.

[sandnsea]

6. The turnout was less than the Republicans

In every other election the Dem vote has been twice that as the Republicans. Often times, Obama gets more votes than all the Republicans combined. This was not a legitimate election and lots of Democrats obviously stayed home. If Hillary uses FL or MI to win, or superdelegates, I won't vote. Lots of people won't vote. She'll lose the nomination. If this is what it takes to clean up the Dem Party, so be it. I'm sick of this shit. People need to decide whether ethics means anything to them or not.

[nomorewhopper]

16. Exactly! To contend that the results of this election are legit is moral fraud.

[mohc]

17. To be specific

State	Dem Turnout	Rep Turnout	Ratio
AL	542511		566250		0.958
AZ	398444		492946		0.808
AR	287485		209836		1.370
CA	4103306		2350994		1.745
CT	353504		150840		2.344
DE	96341		50237		1.918
DC	113855		5801		19.627
FL	1737197		1948460		0.892
GA	1054831		958916		1.100
IL	2016316		892478		2.259
LA	384348		161319		2.383
MD	790371		294006		2.688
MA	1246628		495656		2.515
MI	592261		868002		0.682
MO	822454		588138		1.398
NH	287304		238935		1.202
NJ	1119768		560006		2.000
NY	1744310		600198		2.906
OK	417096		334980		1.245
SC	532468		423563		1.257
TN	618711		548528		1.128
UT	124307		284790		0.436
VA	974727		474610		2.054
Total	20358543	13499489	1.508


I think everyone understands Utah and Alabama, but Florida and
Michigan (more so Michigan) turnouts for the Democrats are
completely out of line with the norm we have seen everywhere
else. That certainly is not to say that the voters that did go
vote were not representative, but if Florida had matched the
going average we would have seen 1.2 Million more voters, an
additional 70% over what we did see. That introduces a large
amount of potential error.

[nomorewhopper]

19. this data is very telling, and certainly suggests that over a million votes would not be counted

the florida and michigan democratic voting numbers are totally out of wack with the rest of the country.

[donheld]

38. Can you provide a link for your post?

It's a real must have.

[mohc]

63. I've been using The Green Papers for my numbers

The Green Papers

They do not update their numbers as they come in, so election night they are not the best source. But for final numbers they have very detailed data that is easy to access.

[donheld]

66. Thank you

:hi:

[Maribelle]

49. Attempting to apply those numbers to your faulty logic is wrong.

You are missing some very important pieces of information in your numbers, before any attempt to apply it to your logic would make any sense.

[mohc]

77. I was not suggesting my numbers were exact

But it is impossible to deny that Democratic primaries are seeing much higher turnout. There is no explanation for the Democratic turnout being lower than Republican turnout in Florida other than the effect that the DNC decision on not seating the delegation had. Now, the better argument against this would be there would be no reason to believe Clinton voters or Obama voters would be less likely to vote than the other. Even if an additional 1 million voters would have voted in a primary that counted, 1.7 million is a huge sample size, the error would be minuscule.

[Maribelle]

84. Here's a hint. What is the percentage of democrats to republicans registered in DC?

Your logic is invalid.

[mohc]

93. And what about

Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Missouri, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia?

All of those states had higher Democratic turnout than Republican, all of those states have less Democratic support relative to Republican support than does Florida. Even if you adjust the numbers based on relative support to 2004 Kerry-Bush, Florida and Michigan are way out of whack.

[hogwyld]

20. If Hillary gets those delegates seated

It will the a Pyhrric victory at best as it will alienate a lot of voters, and could possibly lead to not only her defeat, but a destruction of the democratic party. Same thing also if she arm twists the superdelegates to come from behind to snatch the nomination.

[ChiciB1]

31. Living In Florida... The Election Was So Screwed Up That I Don't Think

Any delegates should be awarded. And IF they wanted to have ANOTHER election it would be "biased" because some of us voted for Edwards and would NEVER vote for another. Now that Edwards has suspended, it would be very unfair to him AND to other candidates because people have "moved on" and the the perception is that there are ONLY TWO candidates.

I know many people were very confused by the whole process and DIDN'T vote! LET IT BE, IT'S DONE... Another F--ked Up Floridian Election!!

If Florida would have honored the "rules" to begin with we wouldn't have this problem!! But no, once again those of us here in Florida didn't seem to matter. I don't blame Howard Dean either, I blame Bill Nelson and the rest who wanted to "change" it!! RULES ARE RULES!!

[Maribelle]

43. You were told by Governor Crist that all votes counted.

He was on television many times saying this.

You received a sample ballot in the mail from the supervisor of elections in your voting district, with verbiage telling you there were other issues on the ballot that were important to each voter.


The crap you spit today does not support the facts that actually occurred in Florida.

[RamboLiberal]

50. Exactly - I've already vowed that if she wins the nomination

by either of these scenarios I'm not voting for her in the general. I'll go in and put Obama in as a write-in. Bet I'm not alone. Hillary and Bill need to realize if they win the nomination in this manner they may win the nomination but they'll lose the general election - and it could be a stunning defeat.

[Maribelle]

59. Hillary will win the nomination by following the rules.

[enough already]

85. You're not alone by any means n/t

[Maribelle]

57. It Hillary gets those delegates seated it will be by following the rules of ...

the credentials committee.

How would following the DNC rules alienate a lot of voters?

[mckeown1128]

62. half the people on the commitee have endorseed her.

They may be a tad bias. Besides telling the voters that the primary is symbolic and then waiting until after the results to say "guess what it counts now" is WRONG.

[juajen]

145. The opposite is also true.

nt

[MagsDem]

47. We need an Obama dictionary like we had to make a special rethug...

dictionary.

New Obamanation definition of the word ethics: disenfranshising 1.7 million voters

Look, a MILLION more people voted in the dem primary than the 2004 dem primary. There is NO way in HELL you can claim people didn't vote. Their party leaders told them to vote, their congressional reps told them to vote, the newspapers told them to vote. They voted. Your guy lost, by a shitload. Get over it.

[ChiciB1]

32. NOT, NOT, NOT!!! n/t

[Maribelle]

37. Florida had a huge campaign to inform all voters their votes would count.

From the State of Florida, the Governor Charlie Crist, down to the supervisor of elections in each and every voting district. On local television, through the mail, through information kiosks set up at shopping sites, Floridians tried to reach other Floridians to tell them their votes would count.

Each registered voter in the sate of Florida received a sample ballot in the mail, with detailed instructions, and significant verbiage showing that it was not just the presidential preference on the ballot, but other issues so important for each voter.

As the January 29th primary date approached, OBAMA signs waving on the sides of the roads at major intersections where everywhere.

Then on election eve, here comes John Kerry on national television saying the votes in florida would not count. John Kerry should be punished for this.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

Unless you can obtain an affidavit from Every possible voter stating

that they either voted, or did not vote because they didn't want to, then Florida's going to have lawsuit on their hands


Please send me a link to the site with the affidavits from all registered voters in Florida, and all people over the ago of 18 who would have registered if the election had been conducted the same as any other election

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

126. ...

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[MagsDem]

127. LOL LOL LOL!!!

I'm sorry, but this is too funny. That isn't how the "law" works, honey. How about YOU find someone bitching that they didn't vote because they decided to take their marching orders from the DNC, instead of from the huge campaign they had to get people to the polls, assuring them they would see to it their votes did count.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

144. I am not your honey, please don't sexually harrass me nt

[Maribelle]

45. The democratic turnout in Florida was record shattering.

There were other issues on the ballot that were important to each and every voter. A big one was the reduction of taxes for homeowners. Other were applicable to various areas in Florida.

The Governor of Florida stressed the importance of the vote, and that each vote would count.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

78. Again: Florida had record turnout of people who turned out

meaningless, the people, even if just 50, who did not vote because they were told it would not count would be disenfranchised if the Florida votes as they stand now are counted.

Seriously, I don't understand what you people don't understand, for the Florida vote to count would be a lawyer's dream come true!

[Hill_YesWeWill]

79. Again: Florida had record turnout of people who turned out

meaningless, the people, even if just 50, who did not vote because they were told it would not count would be disenfranchised if the Florida votes as they stand now are counted.

Seriously, I don't understand what you people don't understand, for the Florida vote to count would be a lawyer's dream come true!

[Hill_YesWeWill]

75. Florida had record turnout of people who turned out

that doesnt prove that Everyone turned out

[shaniqua6392]

4. I made sure I voted here in Michigan.

Rumors were flying everywhere that the delegates would eventually be seated. Why else would they have even had a primary if they did not plan on doing something with the votes? It seemed like common sense to me. If they really would not be seated positively, then they should have just saved the money that the primary costs and canceled it.

[democrattotheend]

7. My coworker voted in the GOP primary

even though he is a hard-core Democrat. He didn't think the Democratic primary would matter, so he voted in the Republican primary in hopes of preventing McCain from winning it. He would have voted for Obama in the Democratic primary if he could have. He worked on Granholm's campaign and knows some of the people working for her, and he said they moved up the primary specifically to help Clinton.

[nonconformist]

8. ALL of my friends and family voted in Michigan. nt

[Hill_YesWeWill]

89. That must mean everyone voted who would have

would you bet money on this statement?

And I mean, would you be willing to bet money on that EXACT statement, because, even if there is just ONE disenfranchised voter, that's a problem!

[nonconformist]

148. We'll have millions of disenfranchised voters if these don't count.

If someone didn't vote, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

[juajen]

150. You're beginning to sound like a broken record.

Thousands have been disenfranchised in Florida before. We did have a lawfuit brought by the nominee in 2000. I doubt seriously if one would even be heard from a voter, who, after being advised to vote by mail, by tv and by governor, did not vote. Give it up.

[Uzybone]

9. Bottom line

Michigan and Florida shouldnt count. Neither should they revote. Whoever has the pledged delegate count and popular vote count in the primaries should win the nomination. The super delegates will gravitate to the popular vote winner. They are not fools.

[jenmito]

10. Being that Obama initially attracted more highly educated voters, I'd say MANY didn't vote since

they understood that their votes wouldn't be counted since the rules were broken. And Obama's name wasn't even on the MI ballot. Hillary claiming MI as a "win" shows how desperate she is. If she and her supporters insist on counting the delegates in BOTH of these states, it just shows how a Hillary admin. would be more of the same.

[MagsDem]

42. LOL -- do you even believe this spin?

Smart people stayed home. And the only way to account for the fact that there were a million more voters in this dem primary than in 2004 is that a million mentally retarded people were bussed to the polls by Hillary.

How's that for a fairy tale? LMAO.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

96. There is no way to know the number, there are no facts, there are no numbers

only speculation,

you can't win logical arguments on speculation

[MagsDem]

114. You realize it was a full ballot, right?

It wasn't the only thing on the ballot. So, using YOUR logic FL voters:

A. didn't care about any other races, and stayed home, even though
B. their party leaders, congressional reps, and newspaper and TV media told them to vote, and
C. there was a record turnout of one million MORE voters than the previous pres primary in 2004

All that, to you, equals D. they didn't vote? Sorry, that's just dumb to think that makes any sense whatsoever.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

134. Yes, and I am not, and Have not made any kind of statement

claiming why or why not voters voted or did not vote.

My concern is that there could be ONE person out there that did not vote because they thought it wouldn't count

If there just one person like that, JUST ONE, and we count Florida, that voter was disenfranchised, that goes against this parties beliefs, it goes against the reason why this website was created!

[jenmito]

154. You realize the Clinton name is wayyyyy better known than the Obama name. n/t

[Hill_YesWeWill]

155. Um, yeah, she's much older right? And her husband Was President

did you realize that too?

[jenmito]

156. Yup, and my point still stands. With one well-known name on the ballot and an unknown name also on

the ballot, what are the chances that the unknown name will be chosen? THINK about it!

[Hill_YesWeWill]

157. Yes, I totally agree! nt

[HeraldSquare212]

12. Some people want to change the rules based only on the outcome.

We wouldn't be hearing all of this is Clinton hadn't come in first again...practically no one.

[tandem5]

25. you'd hear me no matter who got more votes...

I'm awfully bitter after the 2000 election and keenly aware of the fact there is no highroad to adding conditionals to counting every vote! The DNC rules for delegate allocation apply after the vote has been taken - no valid claim can me made that a vote cast does not represent a real person's opinion nor can a claim be made that that opinion is invalid because the DNC and the candidates made an agreement outside the purview of the electorate involved. Its so nice that in issues of fairness and rights that the candidates supersede the voters!

[HeraldSquare212]

26. You were represented in the DNC vote, as was I - there was no deal with the candidates.

You seem to want me, living here in NY, to be subject to what the Florida legislature decides. That's unfair and unrepresentative, as I can't vote the bums out in Florida come the next election. You can.

[tandem5]

29. What I said stands and I don't live in Florida. nt

[HeraldSquare212]

34. Well I'm not as open as you are to allowing the Florida legislature tell me & my party what to do.

If Florida voters feel disenfranchised, they need to take it up with their representatives in the state legislature.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. Nobody I know - I live in Florida. Anyone who did that is an idiot.

n/t

[Hill_YesWeWill]

91. And they therefore deserve to be disenfranchised?

So there should be an IQ requirement for being allowed to have your vote count in elections?

Are you willing to stand by this statement, because if so, that's shameful

[cottonseed]

14. Too many. The states are "spoiled".

It's too bad, but the vote just isn't good. The vote count has got to be considered "spoiled".

[nomorewhopper]

15. the electorate was told that their vote woudln't count - which obviously affected the results!!

Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan, so obviously, obviously that election is going to be very skewed.

Who knows what the results would be in FLA or Michigan, but since the electorate was told in advance that their vote would not count.....that fact affected the results. And I'm sure it affected the results in a big way.

[Iceburg]

21. Fact is -- Obama was the only one to advertize in FL ...that worked out well for him/nt

[tandem5]

22. but simply from a popular vote standpoint...

regardless of if delegates are seated - do the people that chose not to vote completely nullify the votes of those who did?

[Fresh_Start]

27. highest turnout in Florida primary history

so apparently not very many

[Occam Bandage]

28. But less than Republican turnout, and in every other state we've led the pukes 2:1.

[ChiciB1]

35. It Wasn't The Highest Turn Out... Where Are Your Facts??? n/t

[Occam Bandage]

36. Excuse me? When did I say anything about "highest?"

[ChiciB1]

48. Sorry, Post Wasn't Meant For You... My Bad! n/t

[Fresh_Start]

Read it on the Florida Democratic Party site link

Amazing Night For Democrats Everywhere

No campaigns? No delegates? No problem. Florida Democrats prove America is ready for change

For Immediate Release: January 29, 2008

ORLANDO - Florida Democrats today.... shattered the previous state record for turnout in a Democratic Presidential Primary, and even broke the previous record for turnout in ANY Democratic primary in Florida.

Incredibly, Democratic turnout has exceeded 1,708,489 voters with 97% of precincts reporting - only 195,074 less than Florida Republicans whose turnout was relatively dismal, considering five multi-million dollar GOP presidential campaigns were working the state for months. Republicans appear to have even failed to meet their own expected turnout, which was rumored to be between 2.2 and 2.5 million.

"Florida Democrats have spoken, and they are being heard loud and clear. More than one and a half million Democratic voters went to the polls and made a powerful collective statement,'" Florida Democratic Party Chair Karen L. Thurman said. "The nation's largest battleground state proved today that America wants change. Democrats clearly have the momentum in Florida and across this country. No matter the challenges we face, Florida Democrats will deliver for this country in November just like they did today. This is an incredible night for the people of Florida!" "broke the previous record for turnout in ANY Democratic primary in Florida"

http://www.fladems.com/content/w/amazing_night_for_democrats_everywhere

[RiverStone]

30. Your making too much sense!!!

Of course - your right.

If the vote was a regular season game, Obama would have pounded the streets in FLA and his name would have stayed on the ballot in MI.

The detractors to this debate never seem to get that we disenfranchise far more voters then they argue were d/c'd on that day if we let this political trickery though. We count those delegates - we disenfranchise the entire democratic process.

Thanks for making another easy and applicable argument! :hi:

[Hill_YesWeWill]

33. There's no way to know, but obviously a lot! Just the fact that there would be no way to determine

that number is an indication that the number of people who did vote is useless, those numbers are useless,

This is the kind of thing even a child would understand. I'm not sure why people think that Clinton, Obama, Dean or anybody in the democratic party would actually think they could get away with using Mich and Flor. votes as they are right now.

Even if let's say Clinton has some dream about that maybe being a possibility, as soon as she examines it more she'll realize that will Not work with the voters from around the country.

Of course, there is a small fraction of people (compared to the total pop. of America) that live in those states and like how those votes turned out because they favored Hillary, and those people will say it's not fair for them to Not be seated, but that argument is embarrassingly illogical, and their "reasoning" is obviously biased. There's no way that'll fly in our party, we're all just too educated for that to be a possibility! And, they, the officials in the party know that!

[MagsDem]

40. Uh huh, because a million more voters this year than in 2004

Must mean hoardes of people didn't vote. Yeah, right. LMAO. You guys need a ride on the reality train.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

65. You're right, that argument doesn't prove that a small number of people didn't vote

just like my argument doesn't prove that a large number of people didn't vote.

My point was, and I think you agree, there is absolutely no way to be able to know who did not vote because they didn't think it would count!

If you have some kind of actual evidence on paper that could prove within a reasonable doubt the number of people that didn't vote because they thought it wouldn't count, please provide a link, but I htink you're going to find, there is no evidence to point onw way or the other

[MagsDem]

118. I have something better....

A brain. Look, there were many other issues on the ballot, they were told to vote and promised that their party leaders would get delegates seated, and there was record turnout.

Here's the thing -- you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that people stayed home. In fact you have ample evidence that they did not. Anyone down their bitching that they didn't get an opportunity to vote? Anyone????? No. My mother lives there, and your story is just bogus. They didn't give a rat's ass what the DNC said, they were damn well going to vote, and trust their party leaders to work it out later.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

120. We have no evidence, unless you can provide a link, either way

If even just one person was disenfranchised that is one too many.

I don't understand why you feel only certain people deserve a say in this democracy, or why you are so willing to believe that it would be ok for ANY voters to be disenfranchised

I do not believe that is what you believe

[MagsDem]

132. Okay, you go find all those disenfranchised voters then....

start a grassroots campaign and a hotline, even. Then come back and tell us how many people didn't vote because the "DNC told them not to." Which is total bullshit by the way. The DNC didn't tell voters anything at all in fact.

Until then, give it a rest.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

136. There's no way to do that, that's my point!! besides, the burden of proof would be on your side

not mine.

[MagsDem]

143. How is there no way to do that?

Post ads, get the media to let people know. Rent a billboard. I kinda think we would have heard about anyone that felt horribly disenfranchised already if they existed. But you to it!! Good luck.

This is all just bogus whining from Obama whackanuts.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

147. People probably have not complained because they haven't been disenfranchised yet

if the DNC decides to seat Florida delegates based on the vote they took, then those people who did not vote, if they exist, would be disenfranchised,

Interestingly enough, the people who did vote already, they, as of right now, are being disenfranchised!

Point is, wether they seat the delegates or not, somebody gets disenfranchised, and even one is too many

[MagsDem]

39. You really don't want to know, do you? Cuz I will tell you exactly

In 2004 there were 758K voters in the dem primary in Florida

In 2008 there were 1.7 million voters in the dem primary in FLorida.

So it looks like the answer to your question is ZERO.

See, I was right, you really didn't want to know the facts. Now did'ya? :)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

41. 1.7 Million People DID Show Up. Those Numbers Were Record Breaking And Far More Than Double 2004.

That would lend itself quite readily to the conclusion that though some may have stayed home, their numbers were fairly insignificant. Furthermore, Millions of voters stay home every election for a plethora of reasons, yet you never hear anyone claim that the election doesn't have merit because we don't know how all those people who stayed home would've voted. Why should this be any different? It is the people who did show up that matter, not the people who didn't.

Furthermore, there is ZERO reason to believe that those that stayed home would've leaned towards either camp or that they wouldn't have had the same general ratio of makeup as the 1.7 MILLION that did go to the polls. Because there were no influencing factors that would weigh them towards one camp or another, and because we have a record breaking sample size of 1.7 MILLION voters to go by throughout the whole state, it very easily and accurately can be concluded that even if those that stayed home for such reason HAD voted, that the percentage wins of each would be extremely close if not identical. That's statistical fact.

When you have 1.7 million people voting across an entire state, that is MORE than enough of a sample size and turnout to be convinced that the FL voters intentions were voiced quite clearly. I think it would be laughable for someone to claim that with those results, record turnout and gap between candidates, that those 1.7 million votes aren't indicative of what Florida as a state wanted to voice. C'mon now.

[MagsDem]

44. A million more, to be exact

[Maribelle]

51. There were other important issues on the ballot besides presidential preference.

Any voter that did not vote in Florida manifested civic irresponsibility.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. Truth Is. It's Clear The Results Were Legitimate. Those Harping Against Them Do So Under False

pretense. The glaring reality is that 99% of them do so out of complete selfish desire to do whatever it takes to seat their candidate, rather than actually doing the right thing. Kinda makes me sick a bit to see so much of that here, cause I really did think we were better than that.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

115. The results are not legitimate if even just ONE voter was disenfranchised

please provide me with an affidavit from every registered democrat stating that they either voted, or did not vote because they did not want to

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

124. Oh What A Crock Of Shit ROFLMAO!!!!

Do you really buy the shit you're shovelin? :rofl:

Oh that's rich!!! If just ONE voter was disenfranchised. :rofl:

Oh how I love these silly type declarations. :crazy:

[Hill_YesWeWill]

112. So "civic irresponsibility" is grounds for taking away a person's right

to have their voice count in any election?

Wow, that's not democracy, I cannot believe you mean what you say.

You know, we ALL love our candidates, but I don't think we'd like to turn America into a FASCIST state because of that love.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

67. And those people were not disenfranchised,

If their votes count towards the nomination, they will not be disenfranchised, the people who didn't vote however would be. There are people who didn't vote because they were told it wouldn't count, would you like to take the position that those people shouldn't count, that they should be disenfranchised?

Because, the democratic party to me is the party that fights against disenfranchisement, not the party that condones it or tries to benefit from it

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. You Can't Be Disenfranchised If You CHOSE Not To Vote. That Logic Is Asinine.

They chose not to vote and have their voice heard, and that's even with other important measures on the ballot.

Newsflash for ya: Every election there are HUGE percentages of voters that CHOOSE not to vote. Their reasons are many, but in the end those reasons really don't matter much.

1.7 million voters showed up for a record breaking turnout in order to let their voice be heard. Those numbers speak volumes as to what the voters intentions in florida were. Not letting their votes count would be a disgrace, especially in such an important election.

It is clear who they wanted, and to deny them that vote is nothing short of completely selfish and disgusting.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

81. Lawsuit: Voter is told by DNC, their vote will be useless, they dont

vote, then DNC tells voter, their vote would've counted after the fact.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

83. Their is no reason to get rude, I think that the people who voted already

should be counted, absolutely! But, since there is no way to know who and who did not vote, we have to throw out the entire contest, and start over.

Why would that be a problem, why would it hurt people to have to vote again

Are you afraid maybe they'd change their mind?

[stevenleser]

46. The second of two articles I wrote on this

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080208_democratic_catastrop.htm

[ChiciB1]

53. NO! Not Fair To Have ANYTHING DONE! The Other Candidates

have been short-changed too! I don't like it, and I don't like the fact that this STATE & it's CROOKED Politics screws the PEOPLE all the time!!

Why bother anymore! Nelson SUCKS and THEY should have left well enough ALONE!! Now that so many other candidates are no longer running, it's very UN-DEMOCRATIC to have Florida caucus! THEY SCREWED UP, let THEM live with it!

I HATE this place even more, every time they have an election it gets WORSE!!

[stevenleser]

60. If your suggestion only punished state dem officials in FL, I would have no problem with it...

... but it isnt fair that it disenfranchises the people in FL.

What other candidates would be punished by this? Do you want me to write to Edwards, Biden, Richardson and the rest to see if they object? Because I can guarantee you that none of them will.

[ChiciB1]

68. If They Had Left It Alone.... THEY Would Care! They Opted Out Because

Florida decided it wanted to move the Primary up! Had the other candidates campaigned here, the outcome may very well have been very different!

Sure, they don't care now, they aren't running anymore! But what if is still a question to be answered! The other candidates WOULD have campaigned and gotten more name recognition. I honestly believe the outcome would not have been so lopsided!

I still say SCREW THEM!

[Maribelle]

72. Hillary won California by a higher percentage than she won Florida.

Your 'gotton more name recognition' is false.

[Maribelle]

69. I don't agree that state dem officials in florida are to blame.

They really had no choice.

Florida has sunshine laws where everything is done in the open. The state's website has all the iterations of the bill online, and all of the activities that were performed on the bill.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049&

But prior to the change to the primary date appeared as a Bill CS/HB 537, even before one word of the bill was written, there is a long history behind it.

The history starts even before November 20, 2006, the day when the new republican florida speaker takes office with a book called “100 Innovative Ideas for Florida’s Future” tucked under his arm. In that book of 100 ideas, idea number 37 was moving the state’s primary date. Republicans rule Florida. Democrats had no choice but to go along.

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=158932
http://thefloridamasochist.blogspot.com/2006/11/earlier-presidential-primary-date-for.html

[ChiciB1]

82. This Was Posted Earlier By "madfloridian" You Might Want To Check It Out...

It most surely was a Democratic who started the ball rolling. He introduced the bill to move up the primary date. A bunch of Florida Democrats had been working with Jeb's buddy, House Speaker, Marco Rubio since March of 2006.


1Florida Democratic Legislators sponsored the bill to move the primary to January 29th;

Jeremy Ring, Democrat, introduces primary bill

2.Florida House Democratic Legislators voted in committee three times for the bill to move the primary to January 29;

3.All but one Florida House Democratic Legislator vote on the floor to move the primary to January 29; and,

The one conscientious NO vote

4.Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after receiving a call from DNC Chair asking for help in opposing setting the primary date before February 5, “I don’t represent Howard Dean.”

5.Florida House Democratic Leader Dan Gelber stated, after offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5th, that the only reason he offer it was “to show that there was an attempt to state within the Democratic Party rules.” The amendment failed on a voice vote with no debate being offered.

6.Florida Senate Democratic Legislators voted in committee to move the primary to January;

7.Florida Senate Democratic Leader Steve Geller stated on the Senate floor that he was offering an amendment to move the primary to February 5 only because he was threatened by DNC Chair Howard Dean. Sen. Geller than mocked his own amendment which failed on a voice vote without any debate.


Jeremy Ring was one of the main Democrats who worked for the bill.

[Maribelle]

90. You might want to check out the fact that the Republicans could have passed the bill by themselves.

You can go to the Florida web site and see that the democrats had no recourse except to negotiate in the rewording of the bill. And as the bill progressed through the subsequent versions, you can see the democrats were instrumental in turning the bill into a full election reform bill, the election reform that Floridians desperately needed.


http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=35049&

[ChiciB1]

100. You Know.... It's A Big Mess No Matter Who Says What, When Or Where!

I think ALL of it SUCKS! You can parse and snip or do whatever you want to, what is done is DONE! And say what you will about the Democrats, I don't think they really stand up for much these days even IF they aren't from Florida!

But, as far as the voting here.... I say SCREW IT! No matter how you slice it, many will be very unhappy! I'm one of them!

[Maribelle]

107. Stop blaming the innocent then, hero.

[MagsDem]

54. He lost -- stop whining

And for gawd's sake stop pretending people didn't vote. The voted in droves. Your guy just didn't win.

And by the way, SCREW caucuses. They are THE most undemocratic method there is for choosing a presidential nominee. That's why Obama supporters like them so much. Because tons of people DON'T get a voice.

Really, could you people get more rethug?

[stevenleser]

58. As I have said before...

if Hillary wins by virtue of the delegates of these states being seated as is, it is cheating and I will not vote in November. In all other circumstances if Hillary gets the nod, I pull the lever for her and that includes Superdelegates making the call.

You dont change the rules so that your side wins after the game has been played. We all learned that in kindergarten or before so stop pretending it is such a novel idea when I say it.

[MagsDem]

87. So don't. I'm not voting for Obama either

But I'm not so full of myself I think it's going to make a difference.

[stevenleser]

95. You are full of something, all right...

... and fortunately you dont make a difference. I'm trying to work with those that do because it is important to me that we win in November.

[Maribelle]

98. My biggest fear is that too many Floridians might agree with you.

I don't think Obama and Kerry have gained anything in Florida because of this.

[stevenleser]

104. And Hillary will be hurt nationwide if she cheats.

Which is why the compromise I suggest in my article.

[Maribelle]

109. She will not cheat, however. So stop trowing out your soiled strawman.

[stevenleser]

137. If she pushes for and gets the MI and FL delegates seated as is and wins because of it, she has

in fact cheated. Do I need to repeat myself again as to why? You dont change the rules so that your side wins after the game has been played. We all learned that in kindergarten or before so stop pretending it is such a novel idea when I say it.


By the way, that isnt what is meant by a strawman. Nice try though

[Maribelle]

146. The Credentials Committee works within the rules of the DNC.

Hillary would be appealing to them, and the delegates could only be seated should this committee allow it.

[stevenleser]

158. I know what the Credentials committee is...

... and they cannot turn back time on what the DNC decided before the nomination process started. That decision was made and candidates and people changed their behavior based on that decision.

The credentials committee absolutely can undo the decision, but that is still changing the rules after the game is played and you know it. Stop pretending that what I am saying is some sort of major surprise or revelation.

[MagsDem]

140. A compromise?? LOL

Yeah, let's have caucus where Obama can hire a bunch of teenagers through temp agencies to pretend they live there, meanwhile fuck all the senior citizens that can't sit around for 4 hours in order to get their vote counted.

Caucuses suck. There is no confirmation that the person even lives in the precinct or is even registered to vote. I've worked the polls, I've knocked every door in this precinct for candidates, and I work at the PTA - I know every kid in my precinct at least by sight if not name. And there must have been 15 kids for Obama at my precinct caucus alone that I knew damn well didn't live anywhere near my precinct.

If there is one thing this party needs to do as soon as this primary is over it's get rid of the caucuses. They are undemocratic in the extreme, and way too subject to fraud.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

70. You are totally right, Every Single Democrat Voted, absolutely, no question about it, just because,

You Say SO!


I love blanket statement's dont you? Very logical.


:sarcasm:

[Maribelle]

76. If Floridian's did not vote they were irresponsible. Other issues were on the ballot.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

86. Your argument: DNC tells voter their vote will not count, voter does not

vote becase DNC told them their vote would not ocunt, DNC them tells voter they were irresponsible for not voting

I'm sorry, I'm not a rude person, but have you ever taking a critical thinking course?

[Maribelle]

92. The DNC never said their votes would not count.

The DNC only said Florida's delegates would not be seated.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

97. And so their vote would have No effect, same thing nt

[MagsDem]

101. That didn't seem to faze them

Because a million MORE voted in 2008 than in the primary in 2004. You have no credible argument here.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

105. You have no credible argument, just because x number of people voted does not negate

y number of voters

x being people who voted, y being people who did not

you would have to disprove the existence of y number of voters, and there's no way for you to do that

[Maribelle]

113. Wrong. There were other issues very important to voters on the ballot

Every vote counted. They are recorded in history in the books of Florida.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

117. Every vote counted for the people who voted, not the people who didnt vote

the people who didn't vote, did so for probably more than one reason

You can not say this statement "ALL VOTERS WHO DID NOT VOTE DID SO BECAUSE THEY DID NOT WANT TO"

Just like I could not say "ALL VOTERS WHO DID NOT VOTE DID SO BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT WOULD NOT COUNT"

And you definately can not say, in THIS DEMOCRACY

"ALLVOTERS WHO DID NOT VOTE ARE (idiots, irresponsible, _____) AND SO THEIR VOTE SHOULD NOT COUNT"

[Maribelle]

123. We have a civic responsibility. I have no problem with anyone that does not vote.

People get sick, and many have extremely important other things to do. There are many reasons not to vote.

There is no civic requirement to vote.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

125. Of those many reasons, if just one person didn't vote because they

thought it wouldn't count, then they were disenfranchised, and that is one too many

[Maribelle]

135. But that was not an excuse. The Governor told us our votes would count.

Each of us received a sample ballot, indicating there were other important issues on the ballot.

This primiary was NOT simply a vote for your preferred presidential nominee. This fact is critical in your "did't vote because" logic.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

139. are you willing to sign over your assets if I could prove that there is one person who did not vote

because they thought it would not matter?

[stevenleser]

102. And with trying to shovel garbage like that on us, now we know what your opinion is worth...

... I wonder if people like you care about the fact that when they say stuff like you just said, it makes everything else that they say mean that much less. Once again, and with feeling:

You dont change the rules so that your side wins after the game has been played. We all learned that in kindergarten or before so stop pretending it is such a novel idea when I say it.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

I think you misunderstand, I'm your side man! nt

[stevenleser]

110. Sorry, intended response to be to Maribelle... n/t

[Hill_YesWeWill]

111. oh yeah, I just got that, lol, soldier on! nt

[Hill_YesWeWill]

108. delete duplicate post

[Maribelle]

116. Love your personal attack, hero. Prove the DNC said anything other than delegates would notbe seated

Lets see your link, sugar.

[stevenleser]

159. WTF, are you now saying that the DNC never said that? And dont call me shirley

or hero, or sugar, or any other terms designed to denigrate people.

I'll provide about 50 links to DNC officials saying that the Florida delegates will not be seated if that is what floats your boat, but is that really necessary? What's next? A link that proves that FDR was really President?

[MagsDem]

99. The DNC told them not to vote?

How did they do that? Door knocking or what? Guess what, their party chairs, their congressional reps, and their newspapers told them TO vote. And they did. In record numbers.

Do you think more people are going to vote for him if he makes them do a do-over? I think it's you that needs a course in critical thinking skills.

[Hill_YesWeWill]

103. Please provide me an affidavit of every person registered to vote

stating that they either voted, or didn't because they didn't want to

Otherwise, there is no way that you can prove that nobody was disenfranchised

Even if just one person was disenfranchised, that's one too many.

[MagsDem]

119. LOL - get over yourself

[Hill_YesWeWill]

121. Me and the disenfranchised voters

I love your compassion

[MagsDem]

142. What???

Obama wants to disenfranchise 1.7 million people, and you have the nerve to say we are disechfranchising people??? That is just beyond absurd.

[demmiblue]

52. I voted in Michigan...

late in the afternoon on Primary day. At this time, there were three times more Republican ballots handed out than Democratic ballots (ok... I peeked at the ballot numbers on the Republican side). This is in a city that is slightly more Democratic. I really wonder what kind of turnout we would have had if all the voters thought their vote would have counted. I guess we will never know!

[RamboLiberal]

55. Clinton suppporters who are arguing these votes should count

and this is the impetus that gives Clinton the nomination if Obama comes in to the convention with the lead in pledged delegates and popular vote will only ensure that Hillary goes down in flames in the GE. Democrats like myself will be pissed and will then not vote for Hillary in the GE.

I swear if Hillary wins the nomination by having MI and FL seated or if the super delegates override the will of the people I will write-in Obama in the GE instead of voting for Hillary. I for one will not stand for a Democratic candidate cheating like the Republicans did in the 2000 election.

[Maribelle]

61. So, you want the DNC rules broken regarding superdelegates?

[RamboLiberal]

88. Super Delegates are the stupidest idea the DNC ever had

If Obama comes in with more pledged delegates, the popular vote, and having won more states and the damn super delegates overturn that then Hillary's lost my vote!

And if she manages to seat MI and/or FL w/o a revote then she is breaking what the DNC ruled!

And if the reverse would happen I'd feel the same way.

[Maribelle]

94. So, is that a yes? You want the rules broken if it is negative to your candidate?

[RamboLiberal]

133. I don't want the supers to override the people's choice

be it Clinton or Obama. You Hillary supporters want her to win no matter if it tears the party apart. Good grief winning the nomination this way would ensure that the voters for the other candidate would be pissed and unlikely to vote in the GE!

Try winning the GE with a ton of Obama supporters not voting for Hillary. Surest way to ensure McCain is on the dais with his hand on the Bible 1/20/09!

[RamboLiberal]

151. This ought to give you pause about the supers

It's not quite as unseemly as it sounds. But an eyebrow-raising study from the Center for Responsive Politics shows that "superdelegates" have received at least $890,000 in political contributions from Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton -- going back to 2005 -- with Obama sending a larger share of cash to the influential party insiders.

The study found that Obama has sent more than $694,000 from either his campaign account or his political action committee to superdelegates -- the members of Congress, governors, and other party leaders who receive automatic votes at the Democratic National Convention.

About 40 percent of the elected officials who have endorsed Obama have received campaign contributions from him, the center reports. Those superdelegates have received a total of $228,000 from him.

By contrast, Clinton sent out only $195,500 to superdelegates, and only 12 percent of her superdelegates received money from her for their campaigns, according to the report.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/02/obama-clinton-s.html

Wow, what if it comes in close with Clinton in the lead in pledged delegates and Obama's payoffs to the supers gets him the nod? I wouldn't be in GDP arguing that was fair either. Would you accept that result?

[jefferson_dem]

56. One voter would be too many.

Any attempt now to change the rules and seat these delegates "as is" should be seen for what it is - an undemocratic power grab.

[babylonsister]

71. Very good point; rec'd. nt

[WilyWondr]

73. How many in FL contacted their party last summer?

When they decided that it was more important to be first than to have their votes count?

Sept. 23, 2007 — The Florida Democratic Party announced Sunday that it would move ahead with its plan to hold its presidential primary on Jan. 29 despite the national party’s decision to block the state delegation from the 2008 Democratic convention.

State party leaders said that even if none of the state’s delegates were seated at next summer’s Democratic presidential convention, the earlier primary would still help determine the nominee.

There is no way they will seat these delegates or have another primary/caucus in FL or MI.
These are only the fairy-tale wishes of a desperate HRC campaign and what was supposed to be a sure thing.

[enough already]

80. If the answer is 1, it's still too many

If those delegates are allowed to be seated under these circumstances, it will tear the party to shreds.

[PermanentRevolution]

106. I really doubt this will settle anything...

But these are hard numbers, with no spin to them.

All figures are from the official totals on the Florida Dept. of Elections website: http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=1/29/2008&DATAMODE=

There's little pull-down windows to see the official, certified breakdowns by party for each candidate. You'll need a calculator to get the totals from there.

In the Republican presidential primary (which DID count) there were 1,949,498 votes cast.

In the Democratic presidential primary (which DIDN'T) there were 1,749,920 votes cast.

Florida is a closed primary, so all those voting in each were registered for that party. Republican turnout surpassed Democratic turnout, the opposite of results across the nation to date.

Combined, that's a total of 3,699,438 votes in both presidential primaries.

The property tax amendment also on the ballot got a total of 2,667,543 votes in favor and 1,497,970 votes against, for a grand total of 4,165,513 votes.

4,165,513 - 3,699,438 = 466,075

466,075 people who voted on the property tax amendment but didn't vote in the presidential primary.

Granted, there's no way of knowing how many of those are Independents/Other parties BUT:

Florida has only 323,128 voters registered Independent or with other parties, out of a total registered population of 8,285,920. Approx. 1/25th of the voting population (a little less, actually.) Assuming that percentage holds true for the primary turnout, only 18,000 or so of the primary non-votes would be attributable to those.

SO:

466,075 - ~18,000 = ~448,000 voters registered either as Republicans or Democrats who voted on the amendment but didn't vote in the primary. Bear in mind, the Republican primary was very much up in the air and very much contested in Florida. The Democratic primary was not.

To clarify on Florida's voting machines: The FIRST screen that came up was the presidential primary choice. You'd have to consciously skip it to vote on the amendment and not in the primary.

Now, I'm not maintaining that all those votes were Obama votes. That would be a completely unsubstantiated supposition. What I AM saying is that Hillary's vote total was 870,986 and Obama's was 576,214. 448,000 votes is over 50% of Hillary's total votes in Florida and 80% of Obama's.

Nobody can say where those votes would have gone. Nobody can say what percentages they'd break at. It's pure speculation to think Obama would have closed the gap, but it's ALSO pure speculation to assume that the vote percentages would remain unchanged. What is NOT speculation is that over 450,000 unknown voters, of unknown party affiliation and unknown candidate preference, went to the polls and, for unknown reasons, failed to vote for any candidate.

At this point, there are TOO MANY unknowns for Florida's primary results to be used as a basis for assigning delegates.

I'd hope supporters of both candidates can see that.

[Barack_America]

128. My problem with Florida is this...

...That Hillary was very vocal of her support to overthrow the DNC's decision in the days leading up to the election. This certainly had an effect on voters and is *borderline* campaigning, IMO.

(Obviously the Clinton supporters are going to counter with Obama's cable ads, but I would suggest that Clinton's pandering to the poor, disenfranchised Florida voters exceeded the effect of these ads.)

Michigan Dems just had very low morale and low turnout. The only primary thus far that I'm a ware of where the Republican turnout trounced the Dem turnout. That right there tells you that Dem voters in MI did not take this "election" seriously.

[Maribelle]

131. Wrong. Hillary said the DNC rules were not her rules, and indicated she would follow

the DNC rules.

[Barack_America]

138. That's not what was said during her conference call...

...leading up to the election. And it was well know before election day that Hillary would be in Florida on election eve "fighting for Florida's votes".

[New Dawn]

129. Exactly, John Edwards and Barack Obama were not even on the ballot in MI

And yet Hillary still only got 55% of the vote in Michigan.

[Maribelle]

130. Look what you started here, George.

:cry:

[Hill_YesWeWill]

141. I'm done talking to you, I'm not masochistic, and you depress me honestly

I don't want to believe in an America, or even a Democratic party, where your views could even be a possibility.

Ultimately I feel sorry for you, in your reality, voters can be and sometimes should be disenfranchised if they are, using your words, irresponsible, idiots.


I hope that it is never decided that YOUR vote doesn't count, that YOU don't deserve to have your voice heard. I hope YOU never know what it is like to be a disenfranchised voter.

You are now on my ignore list because I do not want to believe you exist.

[Yossariant]

149. There were 4 in MI and 7 in FL. We're good to go. Count the votes.

[Life Long Dem]

152. That's not all. Who else will pout after being told where the line is?

[anigbrowl]

160. Even besides that

Hilary only has a net gain of 57 delegates from the two elections. I know I keep posting about this, but I think the FL and MI things is a distracting sideshow to the main event. There's a very good chance that Obama goes to the convention with a lead of more than 57 delegates over Clinton, and if that is the case then seating the FL and MI delegates won't affect the outcome of the nomination process.