NYTimes: Clinton prepared to take "incindiary" steps (Fla. & Mich) to build up delegate count

[nomorewhopper]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/us/politics/14delegates.html?hp

just part of a very interesting article.

snip:
With every delegate precious, Mrs. Clinton’s advisers also made it clear that they were prepared to take a number of potentially incendiary steps to build up Mrs. Clinton’s count. Top among these, her aides said, is pressing for Democrats to seat the disputed delegations from Florida and Michigan, who held their primaries in January in defiance of a Democratic Party rules.

Mrs. Clinton won more votes than Mr. Obama in both states, though both candidates technically abided by pledges not to campaign actively there.

[Alhena]

1. Wow- Obama campaign says their lead won't go below 100 pledged delegates!

I wonder if they mean at the end of the campaign or at any point during it. I had thought things might get pretty tight after Pennsylvania weighs in on April 22, but campaigns generally don't make public predictions they can't back up.

[Drunken Irishman]

3. This race won't go beyond March 4th.

Clinton is going to lose either Ohio or Texas (maybe both) and by that time, nothing PA does will matter.

[TexasObserver]

6. Obama will win Texas, and it will be over for the Hillary delusion that she's still in it.

[Alhena]

8. I seriously doubt it- demographics are stubborn things ...

I think he may make it close in Texas, but I can't see him making up an 18 point deficit in Ohio. Hope I'm wrong though.

[Drunken Irishman]

23. 18 points is nothin'.

He was down 20+ in Maryland in early January.

[NoBorders]

94. But that was a smaller state

and easier to reach more voters. It will help though that he has more time to spend in OH and TX, and probably more money than Clinton. He only needs it to be close.

[TexasObserver]

Ohio is a harder journey for Obama. It will depend on how badly Clinton holds down black voters.

I expect the Clintonistas to use all the Rovian tricks to keep black votes down.

[jasmine621]

106. Why not pull out the stops. At this point she has nothing to lose.

She has come face to face with mind-boggling hate and disrespect from groups she and Bill embraced, welcomed to their inner circle, and worked hard to help. Why should she take it on the chin. This is it for her, I believe, no more politics. She will continue to be a good Senator from NY and I truly believe that she and Bill will continue to work for causes near and dear to them around the world as well as here at home. I truly believe their hearts are in the right place no matter what their detractors throw at them. Bill was and is still the last Dem President to end two terms with the nation in great shape and coming together over major social issues. He had the most diversified cabinet and staff and fought hard to make the Federal workplace family-friendly, pushing the plight of working parents out in front in the private sector. He signed welfare reform with the intention of going back to fix some of its most contentious parts over the objections of many on the left. Yet there are many women who have benefited from the welfare-to-work programs that resulted...several in my own family. Had his Presidency not been sidetraked by the stupid Monica scandal and impeachment (something I blame him for soley) he might have been able to do greater things for the nation. I still despis the hypocrisy of it all from men who knew full-well that most of them at lied about extramartal affairs but pushed this very personal flaw to the limits, hurting not only Hillary but Chelsea also. For that, I hope they spend sleepless nights. Hillary's crime in all of this was to stick it out with Bill and keep her family together. I don't believe it was for political reasons. I think she would be faring much better right now in her run had she dumped Bill. She would have at least had a great sympathy vote. But because she is tought, loves her husband and family, she is now the enemy. I feel she should do whatever the hell she wants with this primary. What more does she have to lose?

[Drunken Irishman]

2. What is she going to do? Take her ball and go home if they aren't seated?

[Skip Intro]

4. Maybe we should just tell the FL and MI DEM voters to screw off. That'll help us in November.

[geek tragedy]

7. No, just tell the Clintons to go screw off. n/t

[Skip Intro]

12. well that addressess the situation intelligently and thoughtfully

with a forward-looking strategy

:eyes:

[JackORoses]

10. maybe we should just have them revote. oh but that's not what Hillary wants, is it?

[jackson_dem]

18. Millions of folks already voted in those states

Why force them to do it again? How about we have Iowa revote too then if we are going to make Florida do it? ;)

[Bodhi BloodWave]

28. Maybe because we have no idea how many more people would have voted

if they believed their vote would count? Seating the delegates as is would be disenfranchising an untold number of voters

[JackORoses]

30. because the elections were flawed from the get go

everybody knew they did not count.

this affected the voter turnout and final result in major ways.

none of the candidates were allowed to campaign there either.

none of this has any similarity to Iowa.

[jackson_dem]

33. Why did millions show up then if it was meaningcless? Clearly those voters that it mattered

How can we disenfranchise them now and then beg them for their support, which we need if we are to win, in November?

[HooptieWagon]

38. There was a property tax amendment on the ballot also

Many people turned out primarily for that.

[JackORoses]

46. there were other important Propositions on the ballot

quit pushing the disenfranchisement bullshit.

Why does Hillary not support a revote?
Because the existing flawed results give her a major advantage. Obama wasn't even on the ballot in MI.

People don't like cheaters.
They will fully reject Hillary if she attempts this.

[jackson_dem]

51. The revote would give Obama an unfair advantage

He is now the front runner. He would do better in a revote than he did when lost by 300,000 votes the first time. It would be like giving Clinton another shot at Iowa. Well, it would be worse since Florida is much bigger. Imagine giving Hillary another crack at Missouri, Iowa, Connecticut, and Delaware.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

61. I notice you compleatly ignore the fact that Hill was the only one on the ballot in MI

[jackson_dem]

65. I was talking about Florida

Everyone was on the ballot there. A revote in Michigan may be fair since only Hillary and Kucinich were on the ballot. Florida should count, though.

[nonconformist]

68. The Obama campaign pushed "Uncommitted = Obama" in the MI primary

Had a "get out the vote" push on that very issue.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

121. If figures. But my "Uncommitted" vote was for Edwards

I hope they "keep it simple", just exclude the MI delegates.

I don't think they should seat the MI superdelegates either, but fat chance of that happening. Many of them are responsible for this fine mess.

:hi:

[JackORoses]

74. exactly. you want the flawed results to give Hillary an unfair advantage.

in a revote, there would be campaigning.
Obama would actually be on the ballot in MI.

Are you afraid of the competition?

Hillary had a crack at all the Super Tuesday states a week ago. She lost MO,IA,CT, and DE then and she would lose them worse today.

You are fighting a losing battle on this.

[XemaSab]

90. I'd love to Hillary another crack at Missouri, Iowa, Connecticut, and Delaware.

Instead of losing by 1, 9, 4 and 11 points she can lose by 20+ like she did in Kansas, Illinois, Minnesota, Nebraska, Maryland, and Maine. :D

[MagsDem]

82. Now wouldn't that be ironic!!!

The first viable black candidate ever, personnally insisting, ney DEMANDING that 2 million voters be dienfranchised. Man, he could really go down in history with that!

[indimuse]

is the "change" barack h obama talking about..really about ..CHANGING THE RULES TO WIN!?

I voted in FL..along with hundreds of thousands of other voters...bho ran ads(cheated) and STILL could'nt beat Hillary! now he's been crying for weeks and wants a revote. as far as the super del's go...sorry cry baby bama..tis what you signed up for..BEFORE you decided to run for potus!
your chicago style polotics should stay there! you are playing with the adults now.



<snip> in your own words...


"To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled



Obama not only refused to step aside, he filed challenges that nullified Palmer's hastily gathered nominating petitions, forcing her to withdraw.

"I liked Alice Palmer a lot. I thought she was a good public servant," Obama said. "It was very awkward. That part of it I wish had played out entirely differently."

His choice divided veteran Chicago political activists.

"There was friction about the decision he made," said City Colleges of Chicago professor emeritus Timuel Black, who tried to negotiate with Obama on Palmer's

behalf. "There were deep disagreements."

Had Palmer survived the petition challenge, Obama would have faced the daunting task of taking on an incumbent senator. Palmer's elimination marked the first of

several fortuitous political moments in Obama's electoral success: He won the 2004 primary and general elections for U.S. Senate after tough challengers imploded

when their messy divorce files were unsealed.

In a recent interview, Obama granted that "there's a legitimate argument to be made that you shouldn't create barriers to people getting on the ballot."

But the unsparing legal tactics were justified, he said, by obvious flaws in his opponents' signature sheets. "To my mind, we were just abiding by the rules that had

been set up," Obama recalled

[Cameron27]

116. He was ruthless with Alice Palmer,

the very woman who mentored and helped him at the beginning of his political career.

[NMMatt]

77. So have a new vote

It worked in Washington when they violated the rules in 04 or 00. You've obviously imbibed too much of the Clinton cynical-juice to not respect the rule of law either.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

59. Maybe because when you took MI off the table last year

Obama and Edwards did not even bother to go on the ballot.

[NMMatt]

76. You can't be that stupid...

To not see the difference? First of all the candidates all agreed before hand that they would not count for delegates. Why did Hillary agree if she was so concerned about millions of voters having to vote twice, or not have their votes count? This is blatant after the fact opportunism. That anyone could support the idea is beyond me.

There are two fair ways to settle it: have the agreed upon rules stand or have a new election.

[pampango]

80. In another thread it was suggested that DNC sanctions allowed Hillary to "have her cake

and eat it, too".

Agreeing to no campaigning in Michigan and Florida would have made it very difficult for challengers to catch up to the front runner in the polls there, so Hillary's initial polling advantage would be more secure.

And she knew that, not matter what the DNC rules were, the state Democratic parties (which in MI and FL support her) are the ones who select the delegates to the convention. Even though she "agreed" that primaries would not be used to award delegates, she knew that the state parties could do exactly that anyway and leave it up to the convention's Credential's committee to decide whether to seat them or not.

So she got the "cake" of freezing the polls in her favor by eliminating campaigning and got to "eat it, too" when the state parties awarded the delegates based on the sanctioned primaries, anyway. Brilliant, if not particularly ethical.

[MagsDem]

83. Pretty fucking smart, eh?

Yeah, baby, that's why she's my girl! So how come Obama is such a dum fuck he didn't realize that? By the way, he's going to look great being the first viable black candidate in history to DEMAND that 2 million voters be disenfranchised in Fl. LOL!

[shaniqua6392]

97. You are absolutely right on that one!!

I voted here in Michigan and I want my vote to count. It would be ridiculous to have us vote again. Michigan can not afford to do this again and I don't want any more of my tax dollars spent on a re-vote. We were told to go vote regardless of the threat that they may not be seated. We were told that if our candidate's name was not on the ballot, to vote uncommitted. We were told to make sure we did not stay home because, in the end, our delegates would most likely be seated if they were needed to break a close race. The national party should respect that, despite what was going on, millions of us in Michigan and Florida went to vote and to disenfranchise us would be equal throwing us out like yesterday's trash.

[KaryninMiami]

13. Screw off? Hmmm. Thanks but no thanks from a FL voter.

Instead I'd like to have a fair shot at voting in a primary if you don't mind. The kind where my vote will be counted towards a delegate like everyone else in the country got (except of course for Michigan). Bad enough the repugs rob us from having our votes count in the GE- but in a primary (which of course could also be rigged), it sure would be nice to have a fair solution here so that we aren't disenfranchised. You can't change the rules after the game is over- that's just absurd.

[Skip Intro]

16. The vote in FL was unfair?

How so?

[Spider Jerusalem]

You mean apart from the fact that most of the electorate was told it wouldn't matter?

And that a lot of voters stayed home?

Or that it was ruled an illegitimate primary by the DNC?

You're very obviously completely ignorant on this issue, so you really shouldn't presume to talk about it.

[Skip Intro]

25. which is why turnout was so high

yeah, ok...

[Drunken Irishman]

29. And that makes it right?

Look, the rules were set BEFORE the primary.

Clinton knew this, Obama knew this and so did Florida.

As Sharpton said last night on MSNBC, you can't change the rules of the Super Bowl midway through the second half. The rules are the rules and Clinton has to live with them, even if it hurts her campaign. Maybe if she didn't give up on so many other states, especially the smaller ones, she wouldn't need to try and seat these delegates. But since she's behind, she now wants to change the rules to favor HER. Well tough luck.

[Skip Intro]

37. Can you step back for a minute and picture the Democratic party telling those voters that they don't

matter?

And that helps us win the state in Nov. how?

If my party told me my votes don't matter to them now, I'd tell them to screw off in Nov.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, if you just take a step back.

[Drunken Irishman]

58. It doesn't change the rules, my friend.

Rules are rules. Sometimes they suck, but that's just what they are. Will it hurt us in November? Well that's just speculation at this point.

I do think, though, Hillary wouldn't be making a big stink about these delegates had she lost by a wide margin.

If you want to seat the delegates, then break them 50/50 for each candidate.

[Skip Intro]

66. but that's not how they voted

it just isn't

[Drunken Irishman]

67. Then their vote doesn't count, does it?

It's as easy as that.

This was nothing more than beauty contest, where neither candidate campaigned and invested funds into the state. The fact that it really wasn't an election doesn't mean squat. Hillary knew the rules BEFORE THE CAMPAIGN STARTED. It's simple, whether she wants to realize it or not. The votes don't count because it wasn't an election. It's no more different than those stupid straw polls they had in Iowa prior to the caucus. Should Mitt Romney have demanded they use THOSE results instead of the real vote count?

[nomorewhopper]

69. You can't tell them that the elections don't matter, then change the rules afterwards

the effect of this move, if it happens, is essentially telling the millions upon millions of voters across the nation that their votes don't count. basically, no matter the result of voters nationwide, WE WIN.

it's sad that these delegates won't be seated, but the rules were clear and certainly influenced the campaigns and voters. They even signed pledges to not participate!

Obama wasn't even on the ballot! The DNC said "these won't count" so voters didn't pay attention, neither did the campaigns.

If this happens the Democratic party will explode. Prepare. Just sayin

[Justice Is Comin]

75. Except he didn't get that part about not

running tv ads as part of the agreement and he ran ads 24-7 all over the state.

Oh, but that's right he loses everything all the time anyway. I guess his staff didn't give him that reminder memo.

[jackson_dem]

36. Only 1.7 million people voted in Florida

What really matters is the 21,000 who voted in Idaho, 18,000 in North Dakota and 9,000 in Alaska. These three states will be vital for us in November. We don't need Florida. As goes Idaho goes the nation.

[KaryninMiami]

31. People just don't get it at all. What needs to happen so they understand-

We were told our votes did not count. Many didn't bother to vote, others voted for candidates who were already out of the race because they knew it didn't matter. The only campaigning done here was by Hillary who appearantly thought that fund raising events (which generated media attention and crowds) wasn't the same as campaignin. So, no one got to hear from the candidates here in person as the rest of the primary states did, no town hall meetings, no rallys- nothing. What's so difficult for people to understand-- YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE RULES AFTER THE GAME.

[flyarm]

70. Obama had commericals running where i live in Fla..many of them!! eom

[KaryninMiami]

107. Hi Fly- I didn't know you were here in Florida!

Obama bought a national media buy which included some spots (I saw 1 on CNN) in Florida which he cleared with the DNC first I've been advised. But there were no local media buys however- no local commercials, no campaign stops-- nothing else.
Where in Florida are you?

I did a house party last night to show the film Uncounted and Andy was in it for about 2 minutes. Lost of the filming was done in Nashville...

[MagsDem]

84. To the contrary - they were told to vote

My 70 yr old mother changed to Dem party just so she could vote for Obama because she is really a rethug and plans to vote for McCain in Nov. Thinks Obama will be easier to beat. But the point is they were told your vote will count. Their party leaders never backed down an inch from that. Their turnout was no less than any other primary. They voted.

[Spider Jerusalem]

85. Told to vote by whom?

A lot of other people who happen to live in Florida are saying otherwise. On this very thread, in fact. Which you apparently haven't bothered to read in its entirety.

And they were also told that it wouldn't matter. Which is what the DNC was saying well before the primaries took place. They warned the Florida party that moving the primary would have consequences. Once again...you don't get to change the rules just because it benefits your candidate; I'd be saying the same thing had anyone won the primaries in FL and MI.

And if they were told their vote would count...that's on the Florida party for LYING to them. The DNC, once again, were very very clear.

[MagsDem]

87. Their state party chair, their senators, their congresspeople

... the newspapers. They all defiantly swore they would see to the delegates were seated and told them to vote. It's hard to make a case they didn't since the turnout in 2004 was slightly over 700K and the turnout this year was 1.7 million. So how do you figure anyone stayed home when a full million more voted this time?

[Spider Jerusalem]

88. Too bad.

Their state party doesn't get to ride roughshod over the DNC. They fucked up. They broke the rules. They're paying the price.

The only way for there to be any legitimacy to delegates from Florida and Michigan is for there to be a revote. Getting the delegates from an invalid primary election seated at the convention would be a Pyrrhic victory for Clinton; the results of such a drastic and self-serving bypassing of CLEARLY ESTABLISHED rules would be a split in the Democratic party, and a massive loss of Democratic support for her candidacy. You have to be either blinded by partisan fervour, or utterly stupid, not to see the negative consequences of the course of action you're advocating.

But if you think destroying the Democratic Party is worth it, as long as Hillary gets the nomination...then by all means, go ahead.

[MagsDem]

91. LOL - you think they are going to vote Obama

If he insists they have a revote by stamping his feet? The 50 million they spend on a revote is going to endear him to those folks that didn't vote for him the first time? Or his he going to insist they be disenfranchised and then expect them all to roll out and vote for him in Nov? And how is Hillary going to destroy the party by sticking up for Florida voters?

You think the DNC is going to kiss FL goodbye in Nov by not seating their delegates? Not likely.

You simply cannot make the argument that people didn't come out to vote when a million more voted than in the previous presidential primary. That's not going to fly with anyone, let alone FL voters. So face it, she is going to end up with another 105 delegates from FL. And he'll get a few too, and life will go on.

Get over it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

92. Do I think they're going to vote for Obama? No.

I don't know how they'd vote. I do know that the results of an illegitimate primary shouldn't be accepted. A revote is the only fair solution for both sides. You need to stop making the Florida issue one of partisanship for one or another candidate; it's not.

And Hillary KNEW IN ADVANCE what the status of Florida was. She agreed, as did all the other candidates, not to campaign there. She even said 'the votes don't matter'. She ACCEPTED the DNC's position. For her to try to have the delegates seated now is hypocritical and self-serving. And there were a lot of Florida voters who stayed home, or voted in the Republican primary, because they were told their vote in the Democratic primary would not count.

The delegates won't be seated without a revote. Because that was the DNC ruling, to which all candidates agreed. Since you seem to have a problem with that, I would suggest that YOU get over it.

[MagsDem]

93. In your scenario Obama destroys the party

And I will say, he is arrogant and self serving enough to do it. But if he insists those delegates won't be seated in order to win the nomination he can kiss FL goodbye in the GE in Nov. And that probably means say hello to President McCain. If he insists on a revote, which is extremely, extremely unlikey, they will punish him more, and the Edwards votes will go to Hillary. Either way, he loses.

He really just needs to win enough delegates that it doesn't matter. That is the only way he wins. Regardless of what the DNC says the voters of FL picked Hillary with an overwhelming margin, and they DO matter.

[Spider Jerusalem]

96. What part of 'the DNC declared the primaries invalid' are you incapable of understanding?

Apparently you seem to have an issue processing this simple fact (which all the candidates INCLUDING Clinton accepted; she only changed her mind when it started to look like she was going to lose...bad form, that).

[MagsDem]

104. I understand it.... just explaining the practical applications of it...

to you. Like I said Obama is going to look like a dick and it's going to sink his ship if he whines. That's the truth. You can rail against right and wrong all you want. He did run commercials there and he was the only candidate that did. Should HE be disqualified from any delegates there because he broke his agreement? I'm sure it got him some votes, which will eventually translate into SOME delegates.

Funny, I don't see anyone in Hillary's camp whining about that. Maybe your guy just needs to grow up. The fact that he is so whiny he wants to disenfranchise nearly 2 million voters AND also the epitomy of an underserved arrogance is why I will never vote for him in ANY race. I'd actually be thrilled if he started stamping his feet. People would finally see the true Obama.

[Spider Jerusalem]

113. Ha.

Clinton held fundraising events in Florida, which could be construed as campaigning...which the candidates agreed not to do. (None of the other candidates did THAT, by the way.) We can go back and forth on this, but the fact remains that the contest was declared void long before the fact and all the candidates agreed. A revote remains the only legitimate solution.

[rox63]

102. Then their state officials lied to them n/t

[Cameron27]

117. I don't think many voters stayed home in FL,

and I suspect that they won't like their votes being labeled illegitimate by the DNC. We'll have to see what happens, but I don't think the DNC can casually toss aside that many Democrats and still remain credible.

[kennetha]

119. We need to MAKE something happen!

We need the voters in FLA to DEMAND that their votes be counted. Won't be enough if it's just the Clinton campaign apparatus. Are you with us?

[Spider Jerusalem]

125. Too bad if they don't happen to like it.

It happened before the fact. The blame rests with their state party, not the DNC, for moving the primary date despite warnings that they'd be sanctioned.

[KaryninMiami]

105. How was the vote in Florida unfair?

Let's see- starting with -- WE WERE TOLD OUR VOTES WOULD NOT COUNT. I think that's a good start actually given how many people did not show up to vote on account of that part. Or, many like me, selected candidates who were no longer running just to make a point since we knew it would not count towards any delegates.

Then there's the fact that we had no campaigning here in Florida- unlike every other state-- so there was no opportunity- just like every other major primary state- for us to get to know the candidates personally, hear them speak in person, learn about how they would impact us Floridians personally, etc. Can't say I missed the barrage of commercials and robo-calls but I for one, would have appreciated some face time with the candidates to get a better sense of who they are "close up".

That is of course, except for Hillary who showed up here twice for fund-raiser events which the campaign said didn't count since they were not "campaign events". Sure fooled me and the rest of us when there was a media frenzy, press, etc. Guess the rules don't apply to her - clearly that's what she believes anyway.

You don't change the rules after the game has been played. Period. It's just wrong.

[Obamanaut]

101. Instead of a "do over", I think we should go with the rules that

were in place on the day of the primary. I voted because of the property tax amendment (Fla). If we want to make a stand, I suggest picking anyone who is NOT an incumbent in November - local and state. We don't like what they did, or are doing, so fire them.

[anigbrowl]

14. Obama still wins despite MI and FL

Clinton's net gain from those two states was...57 delegates. If Obama keeps his current lead, he'll still have more even if they are seated beforehand. So poof goes that issue for the Clinton campaign.

[MagsDem]

86. How do you figure that?

Fl has 210 delegates and she won with 50% to his 33%. Show your math, please.

[jackson_dem]

17. It's not like they are big swing states

;)

[Skip Intro]

19. nah, to hell with 'em. Until we need 'em in November.

Why the hell should they show up then if we tell them they don't matter now?

Too much for the Ocongregation to consider, I guess...

[jackson_dem]

32. "Why the hell should they show up then if we tell them they don't matter now?"

It comes down to that. It is very basic and also goes to the heart of our party. We are called the Democratic Party for a reason... Obama is so great he will lose Florida and Michigan (Kerry won Michigan and still had only 252 electoral votes) yet still win. If we only believe enough it will happen!

[Skip Intro]

35. Cross your fingers and HOPE!

[jackson_dem]

41. It worked! YES WE CAN (win without Florida and Michigan)!

[Skip Intro]

43. YES WE CAN!

;-)

[kirby]

34. Obama wasnt even on the ballot in MI!

How is it fair? This weekend I saw Hillary supporter (and the former First Ladies Chief of Staff) Lisa Caputo 'answering' the fairness question by simpy saying 'Hillary won MI'.

[Cha]

42. They're so desperate it would be pathetic

if it weren't so tragic.

[Skip Intro]

45. He could have left his name on the ballot. That was his choice. Btw -

there was a strong campaign in MI to get DEM voters to go to the polls and vote uncommitted.

My point is that if we tell these voters now that they don't matter, how can we count on them when we need them in Nov?

[kirby]

50. So hold another election for WI and FL?

This time make it fair. It was MI and FL who violated the DNC rules. Any votes/delegates would be 'ill gotten gains'.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

54. Maybe we should not have told the candidates that there would be no delegates

Preventing anyone But Hillary from Running in MI and preventing all from campaigning in FLA..

Now we want to seat delegates who had only on choice or no effort put towards them? Sorry the State parties wanted the publicity more than they wanted their delegate to be seated..

[stillcool]

62. The State Democratic Party's

broke the rules to give their state more prominence in the primary season. It's kind of ironic that their maneuvering has had the effect of making sure that their state has not only no prominence but no participation. Too bad all the rules in this country were not enforced in the same way.

[DemVet]

109. Agreed. Self...shoot foot.

n/t

[Cha]

5. What's the worst case scenario?

That's what I'm conditioned to expect from the clintons.

[XemaSab]

89. If there is a God....

:D

[pdxmom]

9. This is such a scam. She had plenty of time to argue that these delegates

needed to be seated before the primaries. Hell, she said nothing about it at the time of the Michigan primary. She said nothing about it until the day before the Florida primary (which, IMO, was nothing but backdoor campaigning) and suddenly she's all about votes being counted.

Where was she when voters in Louisiana were being disenfranchised? At least Obama brought that to the attention of the SOS there.

This is disengenuous at best and desperation at worst.

Clinton needs to step back from the conflict and let the party take care of it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Clinton: 'we're losing, so we're going to cheat!'

If she does this and gets away with it...fuck her. Really. The overweening ego, the disgusting sense of entitlement...not attractive, and very reminiscent of Bush. Tactics like this make a good case against Hillary winning the nomination; we really don't need more of this behaviour.

[Alhena]

15. Relax- she won't get away with it. The party establishment can see that Obama's

movement absolutely dwarfs Hillary's campaign in terms of enthusiasm. They aren't going to tell the biggest grassroots Democratic movement in decades to go home in spite of having a lead in delegates.

I used to worry about the superdelegate scenario but not any more- they like the excitement in the party just like we do.

[still_one]

26. That may be, but the party has not always done what is in its own best interests

and if they allow this, and Clinton wins because of this, she will lose the general election, and extreme harm will come to the party

[nomorewhopper]

127. she will try to get away with it, but honestly will this message resonate with independents lol?

[jackson_dem]

22. Florida definitely isn't cheating, Michigan arguably is

Although the result in Florida shows having everyone's name on the Michigan ballot wouldn't have made a difference. She got basically the same percentage of the vote in Florida than she did in Michigan. It actually helps Obama because "uncommitted" is a larger group than what he would have earned with 25-30% in Michigan if he were on the ballot.

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. No, Florida is definitely cheating

because it was announced beforehand that the vote 'didn't matter' (which depressed turnout).

Bad precedent to admit the results of a primary that was declared void before it happened.

[jackson_dem]

39. 1.7 million Democrats voted

How do we win in November if we start out ceding the biggest swing state because we stiffed almost 2 million Democrats in Florida?

[Spider Jerusalem]

44. By rescheduling a legitimate primary or caucus.

Thet's the only way.

Changing the rules ex post facto to benefit Clinton is wrong. Sorry if you disagree.

[jackson_dem]

48. But that would be changing it to Obama's advantage

He is much stronger now than he was when Florida first voted. He lost by 300,000 votes. This would be like giving Clinton another shot at Iowa.

[Spider Jerusalem]

53. That can't be helped.

The original primary was declared an illegitimate contest by the DNC. You don't get to change the rules. It's a revote or nothing.

[milkyway]

20. Hillary is willing to destroy the party in order to save it.

[still_one]

21. Obama wasn't even on the ballot in MI. Clinton wins that way they lose the GE /nt

[LittleClarkie]

24. I stand with Howard Dean. And I have done so since before I was an Obama supporter.

Can't change the rules midstream, Hillary.

And Michigan is esp. out since you were the only one on the damn ballot.

[Arugula Latte]

40. I have no doubt she'd rip the party to shreds for her own self interest.

And that is yet another reason I'm happy she probably won't be our nominee.

[nomorewhopper]

112. agree n/t

[Beausoir]

47. Good! She needs to start fighting fire with fire.

Obamanation ain't seen nothing yet.

[DUyellow]

52. how is that fire with fire? People who would have voted staid home because they knew their vote ...

would not count. This is pathetic! really, I thought you all would be better than this.

[Beausoir]

55. Who is the "you all" you thought would be better than "this"?

And, are you really 16? 16 is cool.

[DUyellow]

60. try again, not 16

just because my user name has 16 in it, does not mean i am 16. Once again shows your ignorance.

edited: for mixing with another post.

[angie_love]

49. If Hillary wins the nomination by seating those MI and FL delegates I will WRITE in Obama as a

protest vote. Screw her. I felt bad for her yesterday but not if she pulls this shit.

[NMMatt]

79. Agree

And I will campaign actively to get other Obama supporters and fair minded Democrats to do the same.

[gravity]

56. Hillary officially jumped the shark

[GoldieAZ49]

57. The ONLY fair way to seat the MI and FL delegates is to divide the delegates

between the two candidates, it will not affect the outcome, whoever has more delegates will still have more delegates.

We cannot have a 48 state convention.

The DNC needs to regroup and look at their rules, and make changes AFTER this election cycle is over.

Right now, they have to do what is in the best interest of the party, and do NOTHING that could be perceived as playing favorites.

[TexasObserver]

63. That is the Solomon solution, or, have DNC authorized caucuses.

[JimGinPA]

64. Yet, In 2006...

She said "I want to be clear that I will support the nominee chosen by Connecticut Democrats in their primary, I believe in the Democratic Party, and I believe we must honor the decisions made by Democratic primary voters."

:wtf:

[calteacherguy]

71. That will backfire on them big time. How pathetic. nt

[stevietheman]

72. If Hillary pulled this, I will vote for McCain, seriously

But if she doesn't, and still wins the nomination (somehow), she will get my vote in November.

She needs to keep it clean!

[NMMatt]

78. Agree completely

Anyone with that much contempt for due process and respecting the rules set in advance is flat out too dangerous to be president. Haven't we learned anything from the Bush years?

However, I would not vote for McCain. I would write in Obama for president and I would be involved in an active campaign to get others to do so.

If she wins fair and square, of course she gets my vote. The fact that she would even entertain this idea, however, disturbs me.

[Az_lefty]

110. me too...I won't stand for any dirty tricks. Keep it clean or I'm gone

[totodeinhere]

73. This issue will be decided on the convention floor.

If Obama has more delegates at the convention, which he probably will, then Clinton would lose any attempt to seat those delegates from Michigan and Florida. If on the other hand Clinton goes into the convention with more pledged delegates, it's a moot point because she wouldn't need those delegates from those two states.

[MagsDem]

81. They will be seated at the convention

Not seating them will put FL totally out of play in the GE because Dems will not turn out. And when the seat the FL delegates Clinton will be the winner.

[nomorewhopper]

111. a joke right?

by telling the electorate that it was a bogus election, then having candidates sign petitions to not participate there, you've missed your chance to fix the "problem" of having florida count. by going after the delegates after the fact, clinton merely is trying to serve her own campaign's best interests

would she be fighting for these returns if she had lost?

HELL NO

[cooolandrew]

95. John Edwards if reading, this might of been you if you were final 2. Let the kerry thing go...

...He just developed a new friendship with barack since 04 is all. Sorry if you have taken attacks by Barack supporters since your critique of Obama but you know yourself supporters are defenseive of their candidate. America needs honesty first and this is disenfranchisement and classed an illegal run to begin wiht. So a 1st time run of the election is just. Just putting that out there if you are still considering endorsement.

[JTFrog]

98. Do or say anything, burn the party to the ground. As long as they get "their" whitehouse back.

So fucking sick of their "I got mine" crap. Clinton's campaign is the worst thing to happen to the democratic party in a long time. And that has nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her disgusting lust for power at any cost.

[ProSense]

99. Obama's surge extends down the Potomac (Update: Obama ahead no matter how you slice it -- MI and FL)

Obama's surge extends down the Potomac (Update: Obama ahead no matter how you slice it -- MI and FL)


Hillary Calvinball plays mean nothing because Obama keeps winning.

[Madam Mossfern]

100. I honestly believe that if they are seated

without splitting the delegates 50/50, there will be grave problems in the party. I have always been willing and ready to vote for Hillary in the GE if she got the nomination, but if she prevails in this, I will just not vote or write in Obama. I'm appalled at the arrogance of her campaign. If the Michigan and Florida voters want to be pissed off, they should look at their own states democratic party for that. They are the ones who ignored the rules and they are the reason for any disenfranchisement of the voters there.

These maneuvers of the Hillary campaign eerily remind me of Bush regime tactics. There will be no more democratic party and "they" will have one.

[nomorewhopper]

108. i agree. good post.

[rox63]

103. Didn't a similar thing happen in Delaware a few years back?

I recall hearing about it on the teevee news a couple of weeks ago, but I don't recall the year it happened. It wasn't all that far back, though. They ended up having a re-vote, and those delegates were seated.

[spinbaby]

114. This is the one issue that made me turn to Obama

I'm a former Edwards supporter and this unwillingness of Clinton to play fair was the deciding factor in making me decide on Obama.

[kennetha]

115. We can't let this be just a Clinton campaign operation

We need to get behind the idea at the grass roots. We need to form an independent organization to advocate for the voices of FlA and MI's democratic voters to be heard. We can't let the DNC or the Obama campaign silence the 2.5 million dems that vote in MI and Fla. But it can't just be the Clinton's advocating this. There has to be an independent grass roots movement. Bombard the DNC. Flood the media. Mobilize hillary supporters all around the country but especially on the ground in FLA and MI. The Obama forces will resist. But they will look like either whiners or like the Repugs in 2000 refusing to allow the votes to be counted.

[nomorewhopper]

118. good luck with that....

are you really interested in blowing up the party?

finding support should be easy I'm sure you can call up the HRC campaign and they'll put you in touch with the right judges, dems, and supers to make it happen.

[kennetha]

120. Don't want to blow up party.

But I do want the voices of real democrats to be heard. You're right, I think it will be easy to get going. And then we can funnel money into an independent org, entirely separate from the campaign.

[nomorewhopper]

126. huge difference between counting votes and contesting an illegitimate election

and i challenge you to start that organization, and be the one who actually tries to help her steal the election.

if you're fighting for a re-do, go nuts.

if you're fighting to capture votes from an election where the electorate was told their vote didn't count (well beforehand) just for political gain, you're beyond contempt.

[apnu]

122. Then she will burn up.

This is an issue between the DNC and the states. And it should stay there. The candidates should have zero say in this matter.

[western mass]

123. So pathetically dishonest, it's almost laughable.

It's almost a Dr. Evil move. Liebermanesque.

[H2O Man]

124. Nominated.

These are not the types of tactics that we want to have define our party. Nor do we want our nominee "selected" for us by non-democratic means.

[stevenleser]

128. the second of two articles I wrote on this

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080208_democratic_catastrop.htm