A reminder...Florida introduced, sponsored, and voted for the primary 115 to 1.

[madfloridian]

To say otherwise is lying. It is an attempt to marginalize Howard Dean as party chairman and get someone in there who is more manageable.

It was an attempt to make Hillary look inevitable leading into Super Tuesday.

I see more and more people coming here to spin and lie about this. I don't need 3 guesses to guess who they support. Getting the FL and MI delegates seated only benefits Hillary. It was a power play by both states to be relevant.

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

How it began last August....how Florida Democrats began their propaganda war
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1819

More about the seating of delegates from Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1824

More %$#*&% begging from the Hillary campaign to seat FL delegates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1816

Hillary campaign says DNC delegates rules are not the rules of her campaign.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1811

The truth is out there now. The rest is spin by her campaign. She will stop at nothing to get those delegates. I have not seen this side of her and her husband before, and I do not like it.

I know a lot of the Hillary supporters want me to shut up about this. I say dream on.

[thunder rising]

1. an attempt to marginalize Howard Dean as party chairman

It just needed to be in a title line for those scanning :-)

[madfloridian]

2. Good idea. Yes, it did.

:hi:

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

27. folks should "recommend" this OP so it can hit the front page

this is an impt OP that needs to be seen. Thanks MadFloridian.

[Ichingcarpenter]

32. Just did....thanks on reminding me

The documents and history are there....

Senator Nelson is an ass, especially after his vote today.

[Ichingcarpenter]

29. I saw it as an attack on Dean too

and the DLC planned it that way......It was a powerplay.

Got love the Democratic Senator from Florida's vote today too

[Usrename]

40. The one small (actually huge) victory for the grassroots.

Yep, IIRC, the netroots got Howard in there, and the party leaders have never gotten over it. He will not fold up like a cheap suit.

I agree this is a powerplay, and we should do all we can to avoid giving up ANY ground in supporting Dean.

[demokatgurrl]

84. But he IS folding up like a cheap suit!

He won't even take a stand on the issue! Probably because he favors the "sanctions" on the voters of FL and MI.

[flpoljunkie]

3. Never give up! Never give in!

[MessiahRp]

4. Never Surrender!

LOL Sorry I felt a Galaxy Quest line coming out of that.

Rp

[madfloridian]

5. Heh heh

Not likely I will.

;)

[Skip Intro]

6. Florida voters conspired to make Hillary seem inevitable going into Super Tuesday?

really? Is that what you meant to say?

[madfloridian]

7. Not the voters. They were victims.

Not going to argue. You have your view, you know mine.

But when some keep justifying it, I will speak up.

[madfloridian]

8. FL and MI delegations will not be seated if the nomination is contested.

Just another reminder. From MyDD and Convention Watch 2008.

FL and MI delegations will not be seated if the nomination is contested.

And we have a vote, state-by-state, the first meaningful state-by-state roll call at a Democratic Convention since 1980. Clinton would need a majority of the delegates (not including Florida and Michigan) to approve the Minority Report.

And then reality strikes. If Clinton can get a majority of delegates to support the Minority Report, than she has a majority of the delegates supporting her anyway, and she doesn't need Michigan and Florida.

But if she doesn't have a majority of the delegates supporting her, its hard to see why delegates supporting other candidates would vote to seat the two delegations, essentially helping her out. After fighting for the nomination for 2 years, why would Obama or Edwards and their delegates give up the fight in this way. It's just not going to happen. The delegations will NOT be seated if the nomination is contested.

[samrock]

9. sigh

What the demos did was irrelevant.. Republicans controlled all branches of state government.. they moved the primary.. Demos are punished for republicans action.. IF Obama had won we would hear very different talk..

[madfloridian]

10. No, that is not true. Dems helped introduce the bill and sponsored it

And only one Dem voted against it.

That talking point is getting a little old now. Read the OP again. I covered it there.

Florida Dems are whining.

[demokatgurrl]

85. FLORIDA DEMS ARE GETTING SCREWED!!!!

THE STUPID DNC AND FLORIDA DEM LEADERS MAKE AN (ARGUABLY) STUPID DECISON AND WHO GETS PUNISHED- THE VOTERS!!! DIDN'T THEY GET FUCKED ENOUGH IN 2000?????

Sorry, I know I am shouting but this makes me fucking livid. I HATE the DNC for this. It's not going to go away. No matter how it turns out- seat delegates, don't seat delegates, hold another primary, don't hold another primary, let the superdelegates who created this mess pick the candidate.... no matter, NO ONE WILL BE HAPPY!!!! How can that be good for the party?????
:banghead:

[KAZ]

13. Sorry. We have an angry FL person who has kept us informed.

Tell you story packing pal, cause it ain't flyng here. Capische?

[madfloridian]

14. Thank you so much from this angry person.

:D

[KAZ]

17. I'd give you a heart, but you have so many, it would widen

the page! I read all of your posts, and thank you for all your work. I was born in Florida!

Aw heck. let's widen the page.

KAZ

[madfloridian]

19. I have overwhelmed by them.

It was nice of people.

[Zhade]

30. That's a lie.

NT!

[Independent-Voter]

61. Bullshit - why didn't the Dem representatives vote against this bill?

[Iggo]

64. Nope, we'd hear the same talk...just from different people.

Re:("IF Obama had won we would hear very different talk..")

[madfloridian]

11. Kick because the spin continues.

.

[tammywammy]

12. Keep up the good work madfloridian!

:)

I know you've really educated me on what happened. :)

[ddeclue]

15. Spoken like someone who knows nothing about Florida...

Had every Democrat voted against the bill it would have still passed overwhelmingly:

78-42 in the state house

and

26-14 in the state senate.

It was a popular bill in Florida and was even more popular because it banned touch screens and required paper trails. No Democrat dared to vote against it or it would have been used against them in this years elections. There simply was no upside to vote against this bill if you were a Florida legislator.

Howard Dean SHOULD be marginalized for snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory by depriving Floridians (4.3 MILLION Democrats) of their voting franchise yet again because of the decisions of those state legislators.

It is too late now to fix this for this cycle now that the votes have been cast in Florida.

The solution in 2012 and after is to have one single national primary day so that every voter's vote is as important as every other voter's vote. STATES should not matter in voting, VOTERS should. My vote in Florida should not be less important than an Iowa voters vote or New Hampshire voters vote and it should not be more important than a Hawaiian voters vote.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

18. You need to quit complaining. People are noticing how Florida whines.

[ddeclue]

20. Not whining, just setting the facts straight...

this person clearly knows nothing about the vote or Florida politics.

I DO. I personally know the Democratic delegation to the state house from my area and worked to elect two of them personally.

I get tired of outsiders who bash on Florida and Floridians for no good reason and without the facts.

Doug D.

[Danger Mouse]

22. the OP is a floridian, and seems to know what they're talking about just fine.

fact is, the florida dems still voted for and supported measure.

[madfloridian]

26. Madfloridian..could that mean I am from Florida? Nah...

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

Pelosi says it is not Florida's fault at all. So if the speaker says it I must be wrong.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1567

"Florida Democrats are all for it"...March 2006. All for the early primary that far ahead.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

Details on how Florida worked with the GOP to set the early primary date.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1617

Nobody sued Terry McAuliffe when he said Michigan's delegates would not get near Boston.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1638

Nelson and Levin of Michigan file the bill today. It's getting deeper
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1741

My postings about the heartbreak of the Florida primary fiasco.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1607

Florida Dems at convention have button that says "Screw Dean"...very classy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1608

Senate leader ponders suing 'rogue states' over primary
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1527

[Zhade]

31. Lies. The Op LIVES IN FLORIDA, and has offered evidence that backs up her words.

You haven't.

[ddeclue]

34. Yes I have...

Try reading my post.

I happen to know the reps for Florida HD36, 49, and 38 personally and know what happened in the vote.

The OP apparently does not participate in politics but just talks about it when she doesn't know anything like the simple fact that the Democrats are overwhelmingly in the minority in Tallahassee and standing against this vote was simply standing in front of an oncoming train and asking it politely to stop.

Doug D.

[madfloridian]

35. How dare you say that. I believe we have crossed paths before.

And you were saying I was not telling the truth then either. You are making yourself look bad when I presenting so much stuff here. Behind the scenes was ugly. Politicians lie to make themselves look good. Maybe that is what your friends in Florida HD36, 49, and 38 did.

[ddeclue]

36. How dare I tell the truth???? Excuse you...

The facts are the facts,

there are 78 Republicans in the State House and 42 Democrats.

there are 26 Republicans in the State Senate and 14 Democrats.

Had every Democrat opposed the measure it would still have passed overwhelmingly.

It's just simple mathematics. Tell me how I'm wrong and you're right on this one...

The result is that the RPOF would have used it against Democrats in the 2008 elections as being opposed to paper trails and for touch screens.

Sorry but those are the facts and I'm sorry you weren't aware of them.

Doug D.

[tammywammy]

37. Then they should have stood up to it

Even if it would have passed. Instead they cosponsored it and helped it get through. Only 1 person voted against it. Instead they were willing accomplices to the republicans.

[ddeclue]

39. No they should NOT have stood up to it...

What purpose would it serve to do that?

The bill would STILL have passed and then we would lose seats in the state house this November instead of gain them back.

They did exactly the right thing.

The DNC needs to grow up and realize that there are more Democrats in Florida than in Iowa and New Hampshire combined. (4.3 million Democrats in Florida)

If the Democratic Party wants to WIN Presidential races it needs to start treating BIG states like they matter rather than sucking up to tiny unrepresentative states like Iowa and New Hampshire.

Doug D.

[madfloridian]

55. Is that like the Iraq War vote? They might have used it as weapon against us?

So we voted for it to keep them from having a weapon?

Stuff is getting very deep in here.

[Zhade]

45. "I happen to know the reps..." Sure you do.

I happen to know Pinocchio, and he advises you to watch the length of your nose.

[Senator]

56. Sorry, but these facts are not straight enough for me

Are you saying that Florida Repubs are dictating the Dem primary schedule? And that everyone should be OK with that?

Or do Florida Dems have some control over when they hold their own state primary?

---

[paulk]

76. don't cross MF!

She's always right!




if you don't believe me, just ask her!

[southern_dem]

23. If they had put up a fight

then you'd have an argument. They didn't, they were willing accomplices and the STATE Democratic Party disenfranchised their own voters. End of story.

[Independent-Voter]

63. Exactly

[smiley_glad_hands]

52. A single primary day will never happen.

The media won't make as much money from campaign commercials and the candidates won't have enough money to advertise nationally.

The system is set up so candidates fundraise then campaign in that state(s). Fundraise then campaign.

[Jokerman]

65. Then this will never be a democracy.

As long as millions of us are disenfranchised every election cycle the system is fucked.

Not that I'm disagreeing with your stated reasons, your right on the MONEY as sad as that may be.

[themaguffin]

67. pobably not

[New Dawn]

16. K&R - keep up the good fight!

[themaguffin]

74. This great reference needs to be read by more here

[Danger Mouse]

21. rec number 4...they made their choice and must pay the price!

i'm glad you're here, fighting to get the truth out, cutting through the spin!

[AtomicKitten]

24. Like my mother said when I was a kid: You made your bed, now you can lie in it.

on edit, K&R for another great post!

[themaguffin]

54. Yep

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

25. you hit the nail on the head, and your ending comment

about how Hillary will stop at nothing - is 100 % accurate.

That is why I am worried about Ohio and Texas being rigged. These states have serious problems.

OH SOS Brunner's attempts to improve the situation actually may make some of it worse.

[Zhade]

28. Thanks for sharing the truth!

:)

[ShortnFiery]

33. Thanks and Kudos for the excellent reasearch madfloridian.

:yourock: :hi:

[Quixote1818]

38. You deserve ten hearts for your hard work!

:thumbsup: :hi: Great Job on that. Right on!

[meow mix]

41. this is my fear. how far will she go?

ughz

[madfloridian]

42. Many are wondering now.

I did not have a candidate early on, but I have been surprised at them. I suspect they will do what they need to do. We supported Obama, and now I am glad we did.

[joshcryer]

44. You think evil thoughts of non-evil people.

That says a lot about you.

Hillary has lost, and yet you persist. It is dispicible on so many levels.

[madfloridian]

43. Many are wondering now.

I did not have a candidate early on, but I have been surprised at them. I suspect they will do what they need to do. We supported Obama, and now I am glad we did.

[Eurobabe]

46. I say NO to MI and FL -- NO do overs!!

If they let this happen, the whole process is down the toilet.

I feel sorry for the FL and MI voters, but they should blame their state parties and and take it up with them.

[joshcryer]

47. When Hillary drops out March 5th will you still be so adament about FL and MI?

Or will you chastize those voters still?

[Eurobabe]

49. I didn't "chastise" the voters, their stupid state parties made them irrelevant.

Nice try though. :hi:

[joshcryer]

50. If (when) she drops out they'll seat the delegates anyway.

:shrug:

[demokatgurrl]

87. Yeah, that will get them far. n/t

[donheld]

48. Thank you for this incredible body of work!

I wish more work like this was presented and less banter.

[smiley_glad_hands]

51. This is one of the reasons I voted for Obama yesterday.

I was not a Dean supporter in 2004. Though, I do firmly believe in him and his strategy at the DNC. When he became chair of the DNC it numbed the loss of 04 a little. He is all about people power. Wish i did support him in 04.

[themaguffin]

53. Thank you for your research

[Debi]

57. Thanks again Mad! Keep it up n/t

[bagimin]

58. This had been called "a beauty contest" down here...

there may have been a decent turnout because of the homestead exemption amendment, but even we nearly didn't vote because it was to be MEANINGLESS. Of course there was no campaigning allowed.

[themaguffin]

59. Of course. This would set a horrible precedent if they are now treated as valid

[rust1d]

60. This sound byte is devastating to Hillary

This is what Hillary said on 10/10/07 regarding the MI Primary and leaving her name on the ballet: "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything"

NHPR's Laura Knoy: "So, if you value the DNC calendar, why not just pull out of Michigan? Why not just say, Hey Michigan, I'm off the ballot?"

Hillary Clinton: "Well, you know, It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything"

Here's a link to the short (edited) byte with the interviewer's question and the response:

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=zydzt

Here's a link to the unedited longer byte with her full answer:

http://www.jabberwonk.com/flinker.cfm?cliid=u01y4

Here's the link to the full original NHPR interview on 10/10/07 :

http://www.nhpr.org/node/13858

I think that is it pretty clear that she has "changed" her position on this now that she is not winning.

[Cronus Protagonist]

62. I say count ALL the votes

To support anything else is to put politics above representation.

[RunningFromCongress]

66. Oh in that case, fuck off..They gambled and LOST. time to deal with it

[suston96]

68. Uh, all citizens must be allowed to vote and their votes must count.....USSC said so...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4589597&mesg_id=4589597

Political parties are not private organizations. Once they include public elections then election laws become governing.

[RiverStone]

69. The storm on the horizon...

Would be unprecedented in scope if these delegates were seated. The implosion at our convention would make 1980 seem tame.

If party bosses pulled this political trickery on the electoraate and in fact, nominated any candidate against the will of the popular vote - chaos would insue.

Folks are still fumimg at how the SCOTUS stole the election in 2000; this would be paramount to another stolen election, probably cost us the GE, and we would lose many Dems in the process.

And all along, the rethugs would be sitting back eating popcorn and enjoying it.

Thanks for keeping this in the light Mad - we must keep this in the light!



peace~:)

[madfloridian]

73. Yes, I think it would be unprecedented.

I think they know it. Let's hope it does not come to that.

[samrock]

70. IF

I was a democratic voter from either Florida or Michigan .. I would say.. Well you will not let my vote count in your primary???? Well than F^&*# YOU! You can do without my vote in November as well!!!

[madfloridian]

71. Then just don't vote in November....if that will make you feel better.

.

[Freddie Stubbs]

72. Wouldn't this have passed even if every Democrat in the state legislature had voted against it?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

75. That argument is getting old, and it is an irresponsible one.

Because it was clear to the Florida Democrats that if they made a strong effort to fight back....that the DNC committee would be more understanding.

[Freddie Stubbs]

80. You beleive thqt the DNC would have let the primary go forward if only the GOP were the only ones in

the legislature voting for it? :shrug:

[anamandujano]

77. Yes, it was a Repuke bill.

Nelson said so on Tavis last night.

[themaguffin]

78. So there are no Democrats in the FL legislature, or only one?

[madfloridian]

79. The Bill Nelson who voted for immunity after lying about it.

That Bill Nelson? The one who who pushed the party here to go along?

Hillary's biggest superdelegate?

That Bill Nelson?

[stevenleser]

81. The second of two articles I wrote on this...

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_steven_l_080208_democratic_catastrop.htm

[themaguffin]

82. kick, because the facts still need to heard

[demokatgurrl]

83. The party honchos voted on the primary date- NOT

THE FUCKING VOTERS!!!! the voters should not be penalized for what the party leaders (all SUPERDELEGATES, by the way, who will probably get their goddam chance to vote) have done.
This just makes me want to SCREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!
:mad:

[elixir]

86. Obama contributes the most to superdelegates campaigns, courting their vote

Obama: $695,000
Clinton: $200,000