If Barack was a woman and Hillary a man this wouldn't be close

[joeprogressive]

I have come to realize that many Liberal women here are only voting for Hillary because she is a woman. They would never admit it but it is very obvious. No real Liberal woman could vote for someone that supported the war, and the next war, is in bed with big corporations, and is a DLC hack, unless they were a woman that sees gender first.

With African-Americans making up about 13% of the country and women making up 50% that gives Hillary a big advantage in the primary and sinks her in the general election where conservative women hate Hillary almost as much as conservative men. They are the party that want men to be in charge and republican women agree with that. That is why you have so many Liberal women voting because of gender; to fight the sexism they have fought all their lives. Understandable, yes to a degree. Misguided and bad for the country...definitely.

The post earlier, that claims Obama supporters are unsophisticated, is ridiculous unless unsophisticated means highly educated. Because data shows the Obama supporters are more educated. Unsophisticated is voting based on gender first.

I don't know where all these Hillary supporters are. I still have not met one person willing to admit they are voting for her. There are definitely no crossover Hillary supporters out there but I talk to conservatives on a daily basis that state they are voting for Obama.

I take my hat off to all the intelligent women out there that are voting with their heart and common sense; not their gender. If you are doing that and still voting for Hillary, fine but for a lot of you I don't think that is the case.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. .

:popcorn:

[robbedvoter]

2. No, Hillary would have sewn it already if she were a man! No doubt about it!

With Maher & al cheering for her/him!

[joeprogressive]

3. No way. A pro war man in the Democratic party.

That is Joe Lieberman and I don't believe he would fare too well in a Democratic primary.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. This progressive woman supported Kucinich

and is now leaning Obama, though he isn't progressive enough for me. The only woman I know who is voting for Clinton strictly on the gender issue is my 89 year old mother, who I can't persuade to look at the issues. Oh, and she considers herself a Republican. Don't know how she'll reconcile that when she goes to vote in her primary.

[suston96]

19. 89 years old? Lemme do some math......

Is she old enough to remember when women couldn't vote just because they were women? Well HER mother probably told her all about it.

Blacks got to vote before women did - by 50 years or so.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. That means she was born in 1919, one year before women could vote.

And that included black women; only black men got the vote five decades earlier.

[suston96]

27. Thanks, and she was told growing up: honey, you can grow up and become President one day...

...thanks to me and my sisters who fought very hard for that right. Maybe that's what the 89 years old is thinking?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

38. Well, she told me first in 1960

that men had messed things up long enough, and it was time for a woman to try. She supported Margaret Chase Smith's bid for the White House. But I don't think she supported Shirley Chism--Mom's a registered Republican, though I know she's voted Democratic too.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

36. Actually, she was born in late 1918

She'll be 90 this October.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

35. At age 2, she didn't remember when women got the vote, I think

but her mother always voted, and Mom supported Margaret Chase Smith's bid in 1960. Mom was mortified when I registered and voted in the Democratic Primary in 1972. Still have my McGovern button.

[suston96]

39. Didn't remember? Maybe not, but her mommy kept reminding her....betcha she did.....ask her...

[jgraz]

74. Anyone who thinks black men got the vote 50 years before women needs to read some history

Yes, there were laws on the books that said black men could vote. That doesn't mean that blacks were actually allowed to vote in 1870. Or 1920. Or 1950.


Or 2000.

[cali]

5. Nonsense.

People have complex reasons for supporting a candidate, and many liberals support Hillary. It's really repugnant to suggest that liberal women support her simply because of her gender. Who are you to suggest that most of the women supporting her are only supporting her because she's a woman?

Oh, and if pigs could fly....

[joeprogressive]

6. I said many not most.

That is enough to keep it close. I belive that most thoughtful, intelligent female Democrats are voting their true preference. Other people like the ones that posted that crap about Obama, are gender biased and hiding behind progressive labels.

[uberblonde]

13. Would you even dream of posting this crap...

About people voting for Obama based on race?

No, I didn't think so.

[joeprogressive]

40. Actually I did but the point was missed on you

When I said that Hillary had an advantage of 50% female vs. 13% African American, I was saying that when people just voted on gender or race Hillary has a distinct advantage. I'll try to spell it out for you next time.

[karynnj]

7. Given that Bill Clinton would not have then been married tohim(the male HRC),

I doubt that he would be in contention. I think he would have the skills and talent to have been either a workhorse legislator or a hard working person leading one of the cabinet divisions - and with any luck, he would have married a supportive, faithful wife.

[Celebration]

66. or he would have been gay (??)

And in that case, Bill wouldn't have been elected.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. You know what?

I've basically decided that I'm not going to criticize or question the motives of any progressive woman who wants to vote for Hillary partly because she's a woman, or any progressive African-American who wants to vote for Obama in part because he's African-American. I'm not either of those things, and I can't relate. I do, however, understand the intrinsic human need to have solidarity with one's leader - be that because of race, gender, whatever. That set of shared experiences is important. Hillary and Obama are both good leaders, and while I don't agree with a lot of their policies, I don't think either of them is simply a "black" candidate or a "female" candidate and I doubt very much that most of Hillary's female supporters and Obama's African-American supporters are simply there because of race or gender. Those might be factors, but they're not the only factors. And I think it's highly dubious for anybody to suggest that it is wrong for people to take those factors into consideration when deciding who to support.

[Matariki]

55. THANK YOU! I wish I could recomment your post

The OP is offensive to say the least. As if women here would vote for Condoleezza Rice if she were running, simply on her gender.

[goldcanyonaz]

9. Another divide and conquer post. If Hillary were the man she would have had this sewn up long ago.

[Windy]

10. She's wrong on the issues. Especially the war. That is what is going against her. nt

[Iceburg]

11. Rasmussen: Hillary could capture 18% to 25% of the Republican womens vote

Recent Rasmussen Reports polling data from match-ups against top Republican candidates offers some support for that claim—it shows Clinton attracting an average of 18% support from Republican women.
...

In the eight match-up polls included for this analysis, Clinton’s best performance showed her picking up 25% of Republican women. Her weakest performance was just 10% of Republican women. Those points are roughly equidistant from the average result of 18%.
link

However, there is another side to the gender gap story. The same surveys show that while Clinton is attracting 18% of Republican women, she is losing an average of 20% of Democratic men to the Republicans.

If Barack was a woman, he wouldn't have had the audacity to throw his thin resume into the ring.

[goldcanyonaz]

12. Bravo!

[Edgeoforever]

17. Sexism - more rampant than racism - as OP amply demonstrates.

[joeprogressive]

48. I agree, sexism by the blind HRC supporters. n/t

[joeprogressive]

41. I agree but there is a third side that is most important

A HRC candidacy will cause the battered GOP to get unified over defeating her. She will energize them like never before. She did it in '94, do people forget that? Many conservatives were planning on staying home, especially if McCain was their guy. HRC would change that.

[Captain Hilts]

Mookie has been saying this for MONTHS. I was in polling for 8 years. nt

[OHdem10]

14. As a former Edwards Supporter, I now support Hilary simply

bcause she will make the best president and is the candidate who
can win against John McCain. Every Pundit even HRC Haters have
indicated she has the BonaFides for Commander In Chief.

In a general election this will be a serious issue. Michael Steele
very smart AfricanAmerican, who is a Commentator on Fox. Very
complimentary and I would observe genuinely proud of Obama had
this to say. I fear Obama is going to get uu front here and
then suddenly it will be discovered--he does not have the experience
to be Commander In Chief.

I can honestly say I have reached the point I do not think gender.
I see HRC as the candidate who can win against MCCain. It may be
with a small margin. i see Obama while loved by a large number
of Democrats is winning on a lot of emotion. To me this means
he really lose big.

We must consider his base. Affluent, More Educated, Independents
and Blacks. The GOP learned years ago they will never win these
groups. They will not even try(except for Independents) to compete
for these votes.

HRC has won in the states where GOP Competes: Middle Class, Blue Collar
and Hispanics. These are Hilary's voters. Hilary beats John MCCain
with these voters. This why the Large State Strategy is so important.

[Captain Hilts]

44. A very astute post. HRC wins Big Blue States. nt

[Big Blue Marble]

63. Please explain in detail exactly what experience

Hillary has to be Commander in Chief. I think both of these candidates are weak in this area.

The only one running who will be able to claim that is John McCain.

You watch Fox??????

[Darth_Kitten]

15. I guess the liberal bleeding hearts are voting for Obama....

because he's the next big cause? :eyes: Yup, it's the new thing, vote for Obama and show the world that America is an enlightened, tolerant place? You can't get there by voting for any woman. :sarcasm:

If anything, educated women and men are voting FOR Hillary. I'm sure some educated women and men are voting for Obama. It's their call, I suppose.

[Raffi Ella]

16. Don't try to shame me.

I'm voting for her because she is the most qualified.I'm more motivated and excited to be voting for her because she is a woman.Hillary is the better qualified to run this country AND she is a Woman - How Lucky are we?

If you have a problem with that,too bad!

You can't look at the voting and explain away the black vote for Obama.I don't see any posts trying to shame blacks for it...Don't even try to shame me for being proud of a Hillary because she's a woman.


Just as blacks struggle,women struggle.Womens issues are no less important than black issues.No shame in lifting a woman up just because she is a woman, as blacks feel no shame in lifting Obama up just because he is black.

Obama himself forces the issue with the ringing rhetoric remininscent of The Civil Rights fight and MLK himself as does Oprah by saying "wait your turn" - dog whistling to the people...

IMAGINE if Hillary was as blatant regarding HER Historic run!There would be article after article just like your post here only worse.She would be shamed by the msm just as you are trying to do here to her supporters.

You're not going to shame me.Don't even try.Hillary has my confidence and Hillary has my vote.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Hear! Hear! You really nailed it.

Nobody here would dare argue that blacks are only voting for Obama because he's black, because that would be racist.

Male-supremacist sophists arguing that women are only voting for Clinton because she's a woman are sexist.

There is a lot of sexism on DU recently, and ageism as well. Why is this hate speech tolerated?

[Captain Hilts]

43. Well said. nt

[maddiejoan]

18. If Hillary was a man

She'd have been our 42nd President.

[Iceburg]

20. Ain't it the truth /nt

[DemBones DemBones]

29. Telling it like it is!

:kick:

[Iggo]

21. If Hillary was a man...

...that'd mean we already had a gay president.

Hey, this is fun!

[Iggo]

22. If Hillary was a man...

...that'd mean we already had a gay president.

Hey, this is fun!

[nomorewhopper]

23. My mom...

smart and hard working, liberal as they come and is voting for hillary. she truly admires her strength and grit and brains.

but from my point of view, they ALL have grit and brains and strength, so what gives? She's voting for hillary because she's a woman who has grit, and strength, and brains. and i have to say this, but hillary's policy has very little to do with her vote, just like obama's has little to do with mine. (both policy positions meet the basic "ok" in our books) it's a cultural thing, just an appeal to certain people that cannot be explained. i don't agree with my mom but i do understand how you are just electrically drawn to one candidate over the other.

but bottom line - hillary gets her vote because she is a woman.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. If Hillary were the one with the message of hope and unity

she would have been laughed out of the race. I can hear the comments now about the little woman with the feel good message.

[NashVegas]

25. I Have No Issue With the 80-90% of the Black Vote Obama Is Getting in the Primaries

And if any other DUers have issues with it, they aren't saying much.

So why can't you try to be as accepting of women who lean towards Hillary, in part at least, because of gender?

[joeprogressive]

45. Here's the difference

If Hillary was a viable candidate against McCain it would be one thing. However, poll after poll shows Obama as the stronger candidate against McCain. I abandoned DK because I knew he wasn't electable. What if all Democratic men supported DK over HRC because he was a man. We would have gotten slaughtered in the GE. I just wish the people voting for HRC because of gender would wake up and support our only hope to take back the whitehouse.

[DemBones DemBones]

28. Your post shows that you are deceiving yourself.

To begin with, your assumption that women are supporting Hillary Clinton because we had to fight for women's rights ignores the fact that we older folks fought for civil rights for blacks long before we fought for women's rights. The civil rights movement came first, then the anti-war movement, then the women's rights movement, so women cannot fairly be accused of only caring about our own rights.

Obama wouldn't be in this race today if old folks, who are now supposed to sit down and shut up, hadn't fought for civil rights for blacks.

I'm a woman, I supported Kucinich, only support Clinton now because she's the most progressive person left in the race.

It's sad that she is the most progressive choice because she's not all that I want, but that's the reality we have to deal with.

We also need to beat McCain, who is a very scary guy. I think Clinton can beat McCain, do not think that Obama can. A lot of people who didn't vote in the primaries will vote in November so it's dangerous to assume that new voters who turned out for Obama in the primaries can carry him against all the other voters in November. Those conservatives you talk to on a daily basis who are voting for Obama will vote for McCain in November.



Check my old posts and you'll see that I have been very hard on Clinton for her votes in support of the war.

But Obama has also voted in support of the war, voting for the funding increases every time. He also voted to confirm Condie Rice as Secretary of Defense when her academic specialty was the Soviets and she, along with the rest of the administration, ignored the threat from Osama for nine months.

Obama can say he wouldn't have voted for the resolution that was misused to invade Iraq, but since he wasn't in the Senate then, he cannot guarantee that. Most of the Democrats in Congress voted for it so the probability is high that he would have gone along with the crowd. Kucinich was one of a handful who voted against it.

Obama is simply not the anti-war candidate his supporters would like him to be. He offers "hope," and "Yes We Can," which is a translation of La Raza's slogan. Clinton offers a detailed plan to end the war.

[question everything]

30. Bullshit! Read DU and count how many posts are from women

who would not vote for Hillary Clinton and try to contrast this with blacks who say the same thing about Obama - almost nill.

Why, do you think, Obama is winning the south (splitting it with Huckabee)? Because of African Americans. Just on Super Tuesday someone on DU posted how happy s/he is for the fact that a black man is winning.

Try to ask a caucus goer why s/he is voting for Obama and the only reply will be that he is exciting. But why, exactly? No one can give you a specific.

But, no white, divorced (mostly) women do not vote for Hillary because: ".she doesn't have a hobby, aside from cleaning closets and completing crossword puzzles. She doesn't appear to have been deeply attached to her family pets. She lacks sensuousness. She showed a hint of cleavage. She wore turquoise earrings with a yellow pantsuit. She liked prim headbands. She changed her maiden name. She married Bill Clinton. She stayed married to Bill Clinton. She is still married to Bill Clinton. Even her voice, Marie Brenner writes, "reminds us of the fifth grade teacher we despised."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/105587

[Iceburg]

32. How many posters at DU-primaries are women -- 10% perhaps /nt

[ingac70]

42. Female poster, checking in. n/t.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

47. I'm a woman

perhaps it would be interesting to take a poll and find out. Sometimes it is difficult to tell gender from user names.

[cbayer]

60. and you are about to hear from all of us

[mcar]

69. Double x chromosome-r here

n/t

[NMMNG]

77. I think you might be a bit off on that estimate

100% woman here.

[Bluerthanblue]

78. I am woman-

I try not to roar.

peace~

[ElsewheresDaughter]

31. then explain to me why the Hoboken, NJ Fire Department ALL men voted for her?

[incapsulated]

34. Are you telling black voters to stop voting for Obama because he is black?

No? Then STFU with your hypocritical bullshit.

[WinkyDink]

37. If pigs had wings.....

[adapa]

46. you're right, Hillary as a man would be winning big

[electron_blue]

56. She'd have had this nomination locked up long ago if she were a man

[ShadowLiberal]

49. True, but blacks support Obama for being black

I'm an Obama supporter, and definitely agree that plenty of women are supporting Hillary just because she's a woman and so are they. I've seen posts where some of them said stuff like they called up Ted Kennedy and told him he was hurting women by supporting Obama, and that he didn't understand it because he was a guy.

But there's no denying that part of the reason for black people jumping so heavily on the Obama bandwagon is because of him being black, and them being black to. Part of that is Clinton's fault though, with the race bait controversy that they handled horribly.

Either way though it's stupid to support someone just because of their gender, or their race, or religion, simply because it's the same as yours. I will admit though I'm a white guy, so maybe I just don't understand why that compels so many to support Obama and Hillary for those reasons.

[NashVegas]

54. It's Historic

I think the number of people who are supporting either candidate based on race / gender identity solely for that reason are relatively low. But, still, this is the first time one or the other is seriously being considered, and who wouldn't want to take part in that?

It just happens that I'm beyond fed up with those who criticize and disparage women for looking favorably upon Hillary Clinton's candidacy for those reasons while Barack Obama's race-driven supporters get a free pass.

[niyad]

50. sexism is alive and well here on DU, I see

[Lisa0825]

51. You're wayyyyyy off.

:crazy:

[rox63]

52. Another middle-aged white woman for Obama here

I don't vote based on race or gender.

[Moh96]

53. very nice thread

[cottonseed]

57. If Hillary was a man, she'd be the first Gay candidate.

And Hill and Bill would be the first Civil Union as first family. So, at the moment, she'd probably still be behind.

[adapa]

58. As I Woman, I'm voting for Hillary 'cuz she does the math & wonks

Plus she reaches across the isle & has been on the foreign policy stage for *many* years.
As a gentleman I spoke to who works for the military in the DC area said,

"if people think a new guy will come in & change Washington-they're dreaming and not the inspiring dreaming- the 'you're crazy dreaming'

[gaspee]

59. Wow

Are you an ass. Let's replace "woman" with African American everywhere in your post and repost it.

Why don't you look up the word paternalism. You might learn something.

[LostinVA]

61. Could you be more condescending of women?

:puke:

[11 Bravo]

62. And if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle.

:shrug:

[Pawel K]

64. So clearly, you must believe that black people vote for Obama only because he is black?

[jeffrey_X]

65. If I was a millionaire I wouldn't be posting this.

[IronLionZion]

67. If Bill were a successful promiscuous woman, where would Hillary be now?

Bill would have already been the first woman president so history would have been made in that way already.

This is all too hypothetical for me. This wild speculation is getting a little too wild.

[fishwax]

68. This is bullshit. There are plenty of reasons to support either candidate

[crawfish]

70. If Hillary were a man,

She'd be out of the running already. Only her gender is allowing forgiveness of her war record.

[joeprogressive]

72. That's right n/t

[readmoreoften]

71. More disgusting sexist crap.

I'm not even voting for Hillary, but are you insinuating that women are too ignorant and selfish to choose who they feel is best for the nation?

I wish posters like you would get TSed.

[Shine]

73. No disrespect, but your post makes no sense to me

I have a hard time with posts that make absolute statements about how thing WOULD BE if such and such were the case, ie. Barack was a woman, Hillary a man, or Barack was white....

What difference does all this speculation make??

The bottom line is: It's NOT the case and nobody can possibly know what the situation would be if it were as you said....which essentially makes moot your argument.

Sorry, but that's how I see it. :hi:

[joeprogressive]

75. None taken but you can't say it's not the case

anymore than I can say it is. We would both be speculating. What I do know is there are a lot of women that seem to overlook HRC's fatal flaws. It appears they do that because of her gender. The ones that are voting because of gender are the most stubborn because no matter what HRC does, good or bad, they are sticking with her. Even if evidence shows she will lose the GE. This kind of gender allegiance could be the downfall of the party.

[Shine]

76. Well, that's certainly ONE way of looking at it....or speculating about it.

:D

ultimately, Time will tell, right?

I choose to envision an election that will be smooth, clear, decisive and a cause for celebration. :)

Why not focus on what we WANT, rather than on what we DON'T WANT?

Makes perfect sense to me.

In the meantime.... :toast: