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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:41 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is Wesley Clark a Republican
I wonder what the numbers are now that the primaries are for all intents and purposes over, and the veepstakes have begun...
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. He would make a very good VP
:toast:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. No.
He was, until he 'saw the light'. He's one of ours, now. :)
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LandOLincoln Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Naughty naughty Padraig! He was never a Republican.
He was an Independent who voted Repub during the Cold War and has voted Democrat since.

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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
33. Ummm...
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:24 AM by Cuban_Liberal
'Independent' means that you split your votes, and there's no evidence from Gen. Clark to indicate that he did that until Bill Clinton ran; up until that point, he voted Republican. Paddy's statement seems entirely accurate, IMO.

Edit: typos
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. He was? When?
Come to think of it, no one who has ever made this charge has ever proved it.

I don't expect it to happen now.
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debinengland Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
32. Get your facts straight
Padraig,

If you want to extol the virtues of O'Donnobain Rossa (my ancestor, you should get your facts straight!

Clark was never a republican, and he personally reflects the very best of democratic values, but with a twist that is sorely needed by the democrats. He has reclaimed faith, family and concern for our fellow man, all of which had been wrongly co opted and abused by republicans.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. His facts ARE 'straight'.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:27 AM by Cuban_Liberal
Gen. Clark himself has said he voted for Republicans for President up until such time as Clinton ran for President. If you are unaware of that fact, you weren't listening to the news last Sptember and October...
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Voting for a Republican...
Doesn't make you a REPUBLICAN.

He was a registered INDEPENDENT. During which time he voted for both Republicans and Democrats.

I voted for a Republican locally once. Does that make me a Republican, too?

And nobody knows this better than Clark supporters, thank you very. We've been having this stupid argument since he declared he was running.

 
 
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. 97% of the people in AR are 'registered Independents'.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:40 AM by Cuban_Liberal
Don't try and tell me that only 3% of the voters in AR are Dems and 'pubs, please. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are that it's a freakin' DUCK! :eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. Actually, they DO make a point.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 08:25 AM by Cuban_Liberal
What Paddy clearly said was that Gen. Clark is a Democrat NOW, but that he HAD BEEN a Republican previously, and that's ALL he said. The 'eyes' are a response to the deep denial on the part of many Clark supporters about this *fact* --- not supposition or conjecture, but *fact*. If you're going to use the 'registration argument', you can't have it both ways: If he was an 'independent' who voted Republican, then he was also NOT a Democrat until early October of 2003. Nonetheless, like Rev. Al, I would rather have a new 'convert' than a Repub in a donkey suit, and Gen. Clark is a convert, without question.

Why do the facts of his voting record bother some of his supporters so much, especially in light of the fact that they don't seem to bother Gen. Clark all that much? :shrug:

Edit: typo
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. The "facts" of his self-described voting record don't bother us
all that much. After all it was Clark himself that said he voted for GOPers in the past, not Matt SLudge or the GOP attack machine. What tees us off is other DEMOCRATS looking down their noses at him because he wasn't born with his democratic party registration wrapped around his silver spoon.

People who have depended on people like Zell Miller for their votes in the Senate are in no position to criticise anyone else for party purity. How about Jomentum?

If critics could point to something in Clark's positions or the way he which he conducted himself in the campaign that smacked of GOP tendencies that would be a different matter entirely. They couldn't and didn't; they just kept repeating the same lie over and over again just like the best little Bush-clones in D.C.

THAT is why we were angry, and remain angry, over the charge.

If Clark had lied and said he ALWAYS voted Democratic nobody could have said a word. That isn't the kind of guy he is, and that's why we thought he would be a remarkable alternative to the same-old/same-old politicians running in 2004.

There still isn't too much room for grown-ups in this Party.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Here's the point, Mike.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 10:19 AM by Cuban_Liberal
What bothered ME wasn't Gen. Clark's honesty about his voting previous record; what DID bother the living HELL out of me was the baseless ad hominem attack in this thread on Paddy for simply pointing out what even the more reasonable Clark supporters admit to be true.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. your definition of what makes one a republican is laughable
I guess people can't call themselves Independent unless they split their ticket every year, or carefully alternate the party they vote for every election. If someone admits that 51% of the time they voted republican than thats the clincher I guess. LUDRICROUS! And some bridges are beginning to get burned around here.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. I think the 'defensiveness' is getting ridiculous.
gen. Clark himself admitted that until Bill Clinton ran for President he'd never voted for a democrat---fact. Y'all can get in a snit about it, if you want to, and no one can prevent that, but to try and pretend that everyone in AR who registered 'independent' IS an died-in-the-wool independent is completely ludicrous!

Sheesh! :eyes:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. The hell with it
see ya
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Bye.
You better get used to hearing what was said about Clark, if Kerry picks him for VP...
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Look below for explanation of Arkansas independent voters n/t
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
65. Not at all, CA. Clark voted for some Repugs. Voted for some Dems.
NEVER was a registered Repug. Was a registered Independent and then a registered Democract circa 2001.

Nothing in his record suggests he was ever a Republican. Certainly he voted for certain Republicans but so did the MAJORITY of Americans at the time.

So, whenever this garbage surfaces we get incensed. Simple as that.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
62. And he's dead wrong
<<What Paddy clearly said was that Gen. Clark is a Democrat NOW, but that he HAD BEEN a Republican previously, and that's ALL he said.>>

And the TRUTH is that Clark was never a Republican. He was an independent. He was even registered that way. What is so hard to grasp about that concept?

Professional military officers do NOT align with parties (or are not supposed to--I'll admit that has changed SOME in recent years, unfortunately). But it's only been since after 1992 that you started to hear more politics among the officer corps--came on with all the character assassination of Clinton, and his having been the first president not to have served in the military.

Even then, you still didn't and don't hear it among the more successful officers, for the most part. Clark is by no means the first general officer I ever heard who was supportive of Bill Clinton. Zinni for example. And Shalikashvilli. Even Powell served under Clinton and never spoke ill of him. I worked for a Air Force 3-star who thought Clinton was the best friend the military had. Of course, he didn't say that publically, not until after he retired.

Clark is of the old school--the military is apolitical. That's the way it should be; it's what's healthiest for the nation. And it's traditional. West Pointers do tend to be more traditional.

Ironically, it was 1992 that Clark started voting Democratic. More because of the end of the Cold War, which was a major turning point for the military. One that would have affected Clark personally, since he was directly responsible for redesigning doctrine from a Soviet threat to the Iraqi army during Gulf War I.

Or perhaps not--perhaps he saw the nasty trend of politicizing the military and was reacting against it. He has always been a follower of John F Kennedy, even tho he would have been only 15 in Nov 1960, and far too young to vote.

But regardless, please don't fall for the Republican canard that the military is all Republican. It's what they WANT the American people to believe, because it gets them votes among people for whom "supporting the troops" is high priority.. But it ain't so.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. You don't register in Arkansas.
But I agree with your accessment.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. I remember the discussions about the form.
Most people don't check a box, so 'Independent' is the 'default option'.
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #64
105. there is no form
.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #105
110. They keep it in their heads?
Of COURSE there's a registration form! :wtf:
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. For the 900th time....
It has only been a couple of years since Arkansans have had the option of declaring a party afilliation. I suspect that everyone who registered to vote in Arkansas prior to 2001 is NOW listed as an independent WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THOSE who actually had enough (whatever) gumption to GO AND CHANGE IT. I could probably find out the answer to that assumption by checking my own voter registration. I am probably listed as INDEPENDENT since it has been MANY more that 2 years since I first registered. I guess I just don't have enough gumption (or is it caring) to check and see.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
55. There are a lot of people on this site that will tell you they voted
for Raygun. Are they all republicans? He won 49 freakin states.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
95. Do you not see the difference between VOTING for something and...
...BEING something?

By your reasoning, Clark is very much a democrat because he's voted Dem since '92.

Sorry! Another failed argument for you.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #95
118. Um, no.
He's cearly not a Republican NOW, but he clearly WAS one when he voted for Nixon, Reagan and Bush! Why is that such a hard thing to see?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #118
125. Why is it such a hard thing for you to provide proof he was a republican?
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:56 PM by wyldwolf
I'll accept a copy of his RNC membership card as proof. Surely you have it since you are so sure you're right.

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tameszu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #118
128. Um, no
Because you can vote for more than one person at various different levels--do you know how he voted in state and local elections?
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jackie867 Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #118
144. reagan democrats...
lots of democrats voted for reagan both times and i have aparent who has been a life long democrate but voted for nixon because, God help, he was ging to win anyway...I know, it pains me too!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
66. Sweet Jesus on a pogo stick, people--- get a GRIP!
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 12:51 PM by Padraig18
Apparently no one here has ever understood the parable of the lost sheep, or the story of the prodigal son, based on the reaction to my VERY positive comment.

Guess what? Paul Simon, one of the greatest liberals in American history started out his life as a Republican! Does that mean he wasn't a 'liberal', or a 'Democrat'? Hell no, it only means that at one point in his life, he supported the other party!

The paranoia and the personal attacks on me for my factual answer have been noted.

:wtf:
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #66
96. You could cut the paranoia with a knife, Paddy!
Apparently some here find the truth to be threatening...
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #66
97. Your answer was not factual
You clearly stated Clark WAS a republican. There is no evidence to suggest he was. Therefore, you post was not factual.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #97
104. By THAT logic (sic)...
There's no evidence to suggest he's a Democrat, either!

:wtf:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #104
123. Yes there is. He is a registered democrat.
THAT fact was widely reported.

Do you believe your own schtick?
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. NOW there is.
There wasn't, until early October. I'm sorry, but if it walked like a duck, talked like a duck and LOOKED like a duck, it was a DUCK, wyldwolf!
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. In post 10, you said there was no evidence he was a democrat
..now, you've clearly admitted you were mistaken. And I'm being polite by saying you were "mistaken."

On the other hand, you still cannot provide proof he was a republican.

How has he walked like a "duck" etc? You have his admitted early voting record - but he was raised in a democratic household (please, don't try to dispute this, you'll only embarass yourself) which would make him walk, at leasr in part, like a democratic duck. DU members have also admitted voting for republicans. Are they republicans?

Quotes? Actions? Policy positions? Show us all how Clark has "walked like a duck" etc.

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Turkw Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #66
130. And Regan and Giuliani were once Democrats!!! what now purity tests?
Jeez, even if Clark had been a Republican, and he was not, I'd still be delighted we wanted to become a Democrat because of our values!

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Turkw Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
131. That's it, All Democratic Candidates now have to report every single
person they voted for, and what party affiliation that person was at the time. I guess using some of the same logic that runs here, any person running who was registered as an independent will be counted as a Republican. Also, if the person voted for, voted for Republicans or Independents, they will be counted as Republican, even if registered as Democrat. Any former Republicans will be counted as Republicans, unless you called Clark a Republican on behalf of another candidate. We will have purity!!

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. Matt, why give the Clark bashers the satisfaction -eom-
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Second this, for me...
:shrug:
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Too late
I dunno, I am just compulsive about making polls...
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. s'okay we forgive you..... this time LOL
Sometimes it helps to look with humor at the crap they come up with. I just forget to do that alot.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I didn't mean to be rude
sorry,

It just ticks me off when I click on these kinda polls and there are so many people that continue to spread that crap.

I'm sure I will love your next poll :hi:
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Matt posted polls yesterday
about Robert Novak or James Carville as Veep!

I thought they were funny!

I think we need a sense of humor at this point. Since Wes is out of the race, it's not as much fun.

To Matt: I think you are becoming seriously addicted to posting polls.
It must be a result of the harrowing primary season.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Humor is good!
I agree with you.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. I think Matt has a great sense of humor!
I'm impressesd with your support for Rick Santorum, one of my personal faves?

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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. How about Rick Santorum for VP?
How about doing a poll on that question Matt?:evilgrin:
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. No actually I think this needs to be laid to rest once and for all
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 05:56 PM by absyntheNsugar
Since the facts speak for themselves - Wes Clark is 100% Democrat.

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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Nope
He's a fine man.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. No
I believe Wes has seen the light. The Kerry salute to him eased any concerns I had.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bush got votes for President in a DU poll also
When someone was foolish enough to list him as an option. I saw that one, about 10% I believe. These polls and this site are not exactly heavily screened.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well, for a Republican
He sure is raising some big bucks for Democrats at Dem dinners across the country -- money talks, bullshit walks, eh?



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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yes,
that's why he's out stumping for John Kerry. :eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. It's the most diabolical Republican plot
ever. I havn't quite figured out how it works, but I'm certain that there is a conspiracy afoot of grandiose proportions.:tinfoilhat:
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
15. No.
In my opinion, this is old news.
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. MOST Democrats are Republicans. So, Clark is no worse than most of
the rest of them.

Bill Clinton was, on balance, to the right of Richard Nixon. The rightwards slide has been so precipitous that these terms have lost most of their meaning.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. what a joke
Edited on Wed Mar-10-04 08:16 PM by wyldwolf
Do you ever get tired of making statements you can't possibly prove?
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
17. no. just wrong about the School of Americas.
other than that he was a very likable person and he sure sounded like a progressive in his speechs.
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wellstone dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. not any more
He was when he was campaigning for himself, but now that he is raising money for other democrats he is a democrat.:spank:
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
23. Why have this poll?
Nobody who voted "yes" is posting, it's just to piss us off.

And Matt? *smack*

 
 
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
25. Oh please, not this again.
The nominee has been chosen, we don't need to keep old wounds open or keep rehashing old arguements that have no further relevance.

As far as the VP issue goes, it seems that if people here are ready to embrace McCain, they should have no problem embracing someone like Clark should he be chosen.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 08:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. niether -- Corporatist
same category as all the "electables."
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Bingo GreenArrow
It will be very interesting to see which corporate
boards Wes ends up on AFTER the elections.
BHN
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. first things first
There will be spoils aplenty, but not till the proprieties have been met, the proprieties being service in the office of the Vice President, or some other goodie.
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SoonerShankle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-10-04 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. I'm so sick of this - Clark is a Dem!
Folks, look at Clark's policies. He is socially liberal. Dem Blue!!!
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. He had no viable policies.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:28 AM by bowens43
They were right out of 'Liberals fo Dummies'. His words and his actions BEFORE the repugs told him to go away tell the real story. His sudden conversion was nothing more then a last chance attempt to grab the power he so desperately wants. Clark is at best a fool and at worst a power hungry, lying neo-con. He's no liberal and he's no Democrat.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Wow, you've only just now figured that out? n/t
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. It's a very short list..
and I've probably just mentally ignored him so well, it didn't register.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. You have a stronger stomach
than I do Jersey.:)
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
54. lol
Riiiiight.

I guess you didn't see the Mahr interview from before he ran where he claimed that this was a liberal democracy and did a great job of defending liberalism. Or his testimoney before congress where your neo-con here Perle said: Wow, Clark is really against the war.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
68. Let's see....
I've never read "Liberals for Dummies" but, I wonder if these are in there:

A Real Plan for Success in Iraq

When the President flew out to the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln and posed under the banner that read: "mission accomplished," he made it clear he did not understand the scope of the mission. We need a success strategy. Only success that can honor the sacrifice of so many American men and women; it is only success that will allow Iraq to stand on its own; and it is only success that will allow our soldiers to come home. Early exit means retreat or defeat. Wes Clark has a plan to internationalize the reconstruction, counter the terrorists' guerilla war more effectively, and give Iraqis a greater stake in our own success.
What Do We Do Now?

General Clark believes we need to clearly define our mission in Iraq by deciding what constitutes success. Our mission is to create a secure, stable Iraq with a representative government. Only this will make America more secure and enable our troops to come home. Success means that Iraq is strong enough to sustain itself without outside forces but is no longer a threat to its neighbors; that representative government has taken root so Iraq can be a model for democratic hope in the Middle East; and that Iraqi society and the Iraqi economy are healthy enough so that Al Qaeda cannot recruit there.

Wes Clark's strategy in Iraq will be guided by the following principles:


End the American monopoly. From the beginning, the Administration has insisted on exclusive control of the Iraqi reconstruction and occupation. This has cost us the financial and military support of other nations and made America a bigger target for terrorists. Ending the American monopoly will change the way this enterprise is viewed-in Iraq and throughout the world.

Re-incorporate our allies. Fixing the Administration's missteps will require skilled diplomacy at the highest levels. General Clark will call a summit of leaders from Europe, the United Nations, Japan and the Arab world to launch a new, internationalized effort in Iraq. They will be more willing to help if America works with them on issues they care about: climate change, the International Criminal Court and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

Create a new international authority. The Coalition Provisional Authority, which is the American-led de facto government of Iraq, should be replaced. But the United Nations is neither able nor willing to assume the daunting task of governing Iraq. General Clark would create a new international structure to govern Iraq-the Iraqi Reconstruction and Democracy Council-similar to the one formed in Bosnia. The interim government would have representatives from the European Union, the United States, neighboring countries and others who support our efforts to build a democratic Iraq.

Transform the military operation into a NATO operation. General Abizaid, commander of US forces in the Middle East, would remain in charge of the operation, but he would report to the NATO Council, as General Clark did as commander of NATO forces in Kosovo. If we take these steps, we can expect NATO countries to contribute around 50,000 troops. With NATO support and U.N. endorsement, we can also get Arab countries in the region to step in. Their presence would prove that this is not an American occupation, but an international and regional effort to stabilize Iraq.

Force Mix. The Bush Administration has failed to formulate an effective tactical plan. No such plan will be viable without substantial contributions from military leaders on the ground. Still, General Clark would approach the problem as follows:

Consider adding troops. General Clark will look at whether adding forces will help the effort in Iraq. He will not measure success in Iraq by a reduction in troops or failure by an increase. It's more important to do the job right so all the troops can come home sooner.

Adapt to guerilla war. One mistake in Vietnam was trying to use conventional forces to fight an unconventional war. The more unarmored humvees we have, the greater our vulnerability to roadside bombs. We have suffered more losses in routine patrolling and transit than in active counter-insurgency efforts. We need to ensure the right mix of forces to fight a classic guerrilla war. That means more Special Forces and other light forces better suited for counter-insurgency.

Better use of intelligence resources. To protect our soldiers we must do all we can to find out who's attacking our soldiers. That means better intelligence work and improved relations with the civilian population. Yet intelligence specialists and people who can speak to Iraqis in their own language are scarce. We need to take the linguists and intelligence specialists now involved in the search for WMDs and assign them to our military counter-insurgency efforts. International inspectors are willing and able to take over this mission. We must also augment our intelligence capability with new technologies and better recruitment in the Arab-American community.

Train Iraqi security forces, freeing up U.S. troops. We need to empower Iraqis to provide routine security so American soldiers can focus on urgent tasks like counter-insurgency. General Clark will implement a comprehensive two-tier plan: train police first, then military.

Summon the old Iraqi army for duty at the local level. We need more Iraqi paramilitary units and police at the local level. General Clark will use thorough background checks, generous pay rates, and real political control for Iraqis-as well as appealing to Iraqis' sense of nationality-to put Iraqis in charge of basic security, freeing up US soldiers to focus on our most urgent tasks, including counter-insurgency.

Reconstitute the Iraqi Army so that it eventually can do the work the occupation force now does-guarding Iraqi borders, keeping order, and fighting insurgents. It will take considerable time to have an Iraqi Army trained enough and integrated enough to do the job.

Engage neighbors for better border security. Iraq is now a magnet for every jihadist in the Middle East. Closing the borders requires cooperation from the countries bordering Iraq. But currently, Syria and Iran don't want us to succeed because they fear they are next on our invasion list. General Clark will engage Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia with both carrots and sticks. We have serious issues with each of these countries, but closing those borders is the most urgent priority right now. We must show Iraq's neighbors that cooperation with us is in their interest and will help their region.

Secure Ammunition. Today, 600,000 tons of ammunition from Saddam's arsenal have yet to be secured, and thousands of shoulder-fired missiles remain at large. Terrorists have used these stockpiles to attack our forces. We should destroy that ammunition immediately or else secure it with surveillance technology and troops from other countries willing to come to Iraq.

Give the Iraqis a rising stake in our success. Iraqis will be more likely to meet the security challenge if we give them a greater stake in our success. That means establishing a sovereign government in Iraq right away. Because Americans chose the current governing counsel, many Iraqis see it as illegitimate. General Clark believes we cannot transfer full authority to Iraqis before they have the capacity to succeed, but we should help the Iraqis quickly establish their own government to replace the existing counsel.

Elect a truly representative government. The Iraqi people have already elected 50 city and regional councils in Iraq. These councils could elect a new interim government in Iraq just as state legislatures once elected members to the U.S. Senate. This new government would represent Iraq internationally and control oil revenues, funds and any frozen assets through a transparent, internationally audited process. Transfer of government functions to this new government would progress week by week. The interim government would launch a new process to write a Constitution This constitution would be an Iraqi document-not written by Americans or people appointed by Americans-and would set the terms for free and fair elections.

Promote information exchange to advance civil society. To encourage the growth of civic organizations, media, neighborhood groups-and promote reconstruction-we should open the West to Iraq for exchange programs so that Iraqis who have been isolated for years can see the what the rest of the world does with its economy, schools, health care, media and government.
Preventing Foreign Misadventures


Promote security through multilateralism. No nation will ever have veto power over our security. But turning our back on our allies makes it harder to protect ourselves and our interests. Despite our overwhelming military, economic and political strength, we cannot pursue Arab-Israeli peace, support reconstruction of Iraq and Afghanistan, deal with the challenges of North Korea, track down Osama bin Laden, fight the global war against terrorism, face the problem of Iran, and return to prosperity in this country, unless we have allies to help us.

Modernize international institutions to combat new threats. General Clark will pursue a new Atlantic Charter to repair and modernize our security partnership with Europe. The Charter that will define the threats we face in common and demand action from our allies to meet them while offering a promise to act together.

Create a new agency for international assistance. General Clark believes America should lead the world in addressing the causes of human misery by attacking the problems of poverty, disease, and ethnic conflict with the same energy and skill we have brought to the challenge of warfare. A new agency would combine the existing development efforts of our government with a real budget for research and development, planning and the ability to draw on the new national Civilian Reserves that General Clark proposed in October. These efforts will reduce the anger and alienation that gives rise to terrorism, and win us more friends and partners around the world. It will be far easier to ask gain international support for our concerns when other countries see us helping them on theirs.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Strategy for Addressing the Threat Posed by Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda

Osama bin Laden and the Al Qaeda network pose one of the greatest threats to the United States. More than two years after President Bush said he would find bin Laden -- "dead or alive" -- the United States continues to hunt for Osama bin Laden and many of the other leaders of Al Qaeda. As a result of the Bush Administration's inadequate and misguided efforts, bin Laden and Al Qaeda continue to pose a great threat to the U.S., our friends and allies, and various other states. Wes Clark proposes a three-pronged strategy to refocus our energies on hunting down bin Laden and destroying the Al Qaeda network.


Press Saudi Arabia to work with U.S. forces to create a joint U.S.-Saudi commando force.
This joint U.S.-Saudi commando force would work the Afghan-Pakistani border where bin Laden is thought to be hiding.
The Saudi regime is as responsible as anyone for the rise of Al Qaeda. With the bombings in Saudi Arabia over the last months, the Saudis have seen first-hand the destructive forces of the Al Qaeda network.
With Saudi help, Pakistani authorities and Islamic leaders in the territories would be encouraged to strengthen efforts to find bin Laden.
This is not without precedent; the Saudis provided substantial forces to the coalition that ejected Saddam Hussein from Kuwait over a decade ago.

Use our assets wisely.
Wes Clark believes that too many of our intelligence specialists, linguists, and special operation personnel are investing too much time and energy in Iraq in a fruitless search for weapons of mass destruction Ð a task that could better be handled by international weapons inspectors.

These inspectors are ready, willing, and able to perform this mission.
By doing so, we could refocus American specialists on the destruction of Al Qaeda wherever the Al Qaeda leadership and its forces may be located.
This is a clear case where getting help from the international community to share the burden in Iraq will free up crucial resources to allow us to better fight the most significant threat to our homeland.

Repair relationships with our allies and friends.
With his unilateral march into Iraq, President Bush has scorned many of our key allies, preventing the necessary cooperation to destroy Al Qaeda.

Repairing these rifts would allow new possibilities for the United States to call on our allies to help us with this task.
Improved cooperation will lead to:
improved efforts to cut off funding for the Al Qaeda network;
increased burden-sharing in Iraq;
invigorated efforts to locate and destroy the leadership of Al Qaeda;
increased security of Afghanistan's borders;
strengthened democratic institutions in the Middle East; & stronger efforts to secularize Afghanistan and help create democratic institution's there.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform
Restoring Progressivity, Relieving the Working-Family Squeeze, and Reducing Poverty


Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform is the most sweeping tax reform proposal in years. It will restore progressivity to the tax code, relieve the working-family squeeze, and reduce poverty. Unlike President Bush's policies, which have been highly regressive and have dramatically increased the deficit, Wes Clark's proposal is paid for without raising the deficit by a dime.


Under Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform, a family of four making up to $50,000 will pay no federal income taxes and all taxpaying families with children making up to $100,000 will get a tax cut. The Families First Tax Reform will shift the tax burden from those who are struggling to get by to those with the most to spare. The entire proposal is offset by closing corporate loopholes and by a 5 percentage point rate increase on income over $1 million a year. The rate increase will only reach the income-over $1 million-of the top 0.1 percent of taxpayers.


The tax breaks in Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform all come from consolidating the existing confusing and uneven set of tax benefits for children, including the Child Tax Credit, the Additional Child Tax Credit, the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), and the Dependent Exemption... and then expanding them to provide a $2,250 tax credit per child.


With Families First Tax Reform taxpayers will only need to fill out a simple, three-line form to find out if they need to pay federal income taxes, providing their income, number of children, and marital status. And the majority of families won't be forced to file any tax forms with the government.


The Clark Tax Reform provides relief for millions of middle-class families. Under the watch of George W. Bush, their incomes fell by nearly $1,500, their health care premiums rose by $2,600, their property taxes went up and their tuition at four-year public colleges increased a record 28 percent (adjusted for inflation). Rather than relieving the squeeze on working families, President Bush provided an average tax cut of $128,000 to taxpayers making over $1 million.


For lower-income families, Families First Tax Reform will increase the reward for work, helping to lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty.


Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform will meet his five principles for tax reform: making the tax code simpler, fairer, more progressive, and more pro-growth - without increasing the deficit. It will eliminate hundreds pages from the Internal Revenue Code and dozens of pages of different IRS forms and instructions. This builds on Wes Clark's previous simplification proposal to eliminate the Hope Scholarship tax credit and consolidate it into a Universal College Grant.



HIGHLIGHTS OF FAMILIES FIRST TAX REFORM


All working families benefit.
No families of four making under $50,000 will pay income taxes. Currently, a family of four making $50,000 pays $1,549 in income taxes.
All taxpayers with children making up to $100,000 a year will get a tax cut.
In total, 31 million families will get a tax cut; the taxes of the typical family with children will be cut by $1,477.

Low-income families get crucial additional assistance
Additional tax relief for 15 million low-income working families currently receiving tax refunds through the EITC and the refundable portion of the child tax credit.
Reduce or eliminate the marriage penalty for millions of low-income families.
Help lift hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty.
And tax breaks for 3.2 million poor childless workers, which can be used to defray payroll taxes and work-related expenses.

Simplify taxes for working families
Families will find out if they need to pay federal income taxes by filling out a simple, three-line form.
The majority of families will not need to file any tax forms with the government.

How this will benefit families
A married couple with two children-making $50,000-will get a $1,583 tax break.
A married couple with three children-both earning the minimum wage or $21,000 annually-will get an additional tax credit of $2,287.
A married couple with two children-making $85,000-will get a $975 tax cut.
A single mother raising one child on $30,000 a year would get a $793 tax break.

Families First Tax Reform Works by Providing a $2,250 Tax Credit Per Child


Families First Tax Reform consolidates and expands on the existing set of tax benefits for children-raising the benefit to a standard $2,250 tax credit per child. All families, whether they make $20,000 or $50,000 or $100,000, will get the same tax break for their children.

Paying for Tax Reform

The plan will provide poverty-reducing relief and middle-class-tax-burden reduction of $33 billion annually. This will be paid for without increasing the deficit by:

Shifting the burden to those who can most afford it-a 5 percentage point rate increase only on income over $1 million per year. This increase, which can be used only for working families' tax relief, will not apply to the first $1 million of income or to any capital gains. It will not affect 99.9 percent of taxpayers.
Closing corporate loopholes, including the one that costs America jobs by giving companies a tax break for moving their headquarters overseas.


DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF FAMILIES FIRST TAX REFORM


Benefits for Families


Eliminating income taxes for all families of four making under $50,000. Under Wes Clark's plan, no family of four making under $50,000 will have to pay income taxes.

A simple three-line form determines who pays federal income taxes. Under Wes Clark's plan, families will only need to fill out a simple three-line form to find out if they need to pay federal income taxes, providing their income, number of children, and marital status. A simple table will tell them whether or not they need to pay any income taxes:
Families Will Not Pay Federal Income Taxes If They Make Less Than:

Number of Children
Married
Single (Head of Household)

1
$35,000
$28,000

2
$50,000
$43,000

3
$65,000
$54,000




The majority of families will not need to file tax returns. Under Wes Clark's reform, more than half of American families will no longer need to file tax returns. The government will withhold the correct amount of taxes from the families paycheck or provide them with the correct tax credit. If they still want to file a tax form, they can. This system has been proven to work in thirty-six countries, including the United Kingdom.<1>

Attacking poverty: 3.2 million lower-income taxpayers will be taken off the tax rolls. Professor Jeffery Liebman of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government has done estimates of the Wes Clark's Tax Reform and found that it will take 3.5 million taxpayers off the tax rolls - resulting in 54 percent of working American families with children paying no income taxes.<2> This means, the majority of working families with children will pay no income taxes.


Encouraging opportunity and responsibility by making work pay. Family First Tax Reform, combined with Clark's proposal to raise the minimum wage to $7 by 2007, will raise the reward for families that work. At the same time, the new, expanded tax credits can be used to pay for transportation and childcare, enabling more families to work. Studies show that this will increase labor force participation, move families from welfare to work, and thus help the economy.

Reduce or eliminate the marriage penalty for millions of low-income families. The 2001 tax cut ended the marriage penalty for millions of middle-class families but left a marriage penalty for low-income families. Wes Clark's Tax Reform will fix that injustice- reducing or eliminating marriage penalties for millions of low-income families.


Hundreds of thousands of children will be lifted out of poverty. Currently the EITC does not provide any additional help for families with more than two children. Wes Clark's plan will fix that-consolidating and expanding on the EITC and lifting hundreds of thousands of children out of poverty.

Helping Squeezed Middle-Class Families: All middle-class taxpayers with children making up to $100,000 will get a tax cut. Wes Clark's Tax Reform will restore fairness to the tax code, providing a tax cut for all families with children making up to $100,000 annually. Of these families, 15 million low-income families currently receiving net tax credits through the EITC and other credits will get larger tax credits. In addition, 3.2 million low-income adults without children will get expanded tax breaks. In total 31 million families will benefit-with the typical tax cut being $1,477.<3>



Families First Tax Reform: Representative Families
Helping typical families: A police officer married to a part-time worker raising two children on $50,000 annually-no more federal income taxes. Currently this family pays $1,549 in federal income taxes, Wes Clark's plan will eliminate their taxes - and the government will give them a tax credit refund of $34. That's a $1,583 tax cut. What this means to a typical family:

$1,500 is five months of groceries<4>
$1,500 is more than seven months of the worker contribution to a typical health insurance plan<5>
$1,500 is a year of utility bills for the typical New Hampshire family.<6>


Expanding EITC benefits to reduce poverty: A cashier married to a custodian raising three children while working for the minimum wage-an extra $2,287 tax break. A couple working full-time for the minimum wage - $5.15 an hour -earns $21,000 annually. Under current law their EITC is limited to the first two children. Wes Clark's plan will end that limitation - providing them an additional tax credit of $2,287.



Helping all middle-class families: A firefighter married to a teacher raising two children on an annual income of $85,000-a $975 tax cut. Currently this family pays $7,445 in taxes. Wes Clark's plan will cut their taxes by $975.

Helping single parents: A single parent raising one child on the $30,000 a year she makes in her own small business-$793 to help with the bills. Wes Clark's Families First Tax Reform will eliminate her income taxes and replace them with a credit - in total $793 in tax relief to help with the bills.

Reducing the marriage penalty for low-income couples: Married army privates with two children each making $15,000-Marriage penalty reduced substantially. Under current law, this family faces a marriage penalty. Like many low-income families, they pay more in taxes than they would pay if they were single-$1,499 more. Wes Clark's plan will reduce their marriage penalty, providing a $882 tax cut.


How Families First Tax Reform Works

$2,250 tax credit per child - Consolidating existing tax breaks. Families First Tax Reform will consolidate and expand on four tax breaks for families with children: The Child Tax Credit, the Additional Child Tax Credit, the Earned Income Tax Credit, and the dependent exemption. Instead of filling out forms for each of these tax credits, families will just reduce their taxes by $2,250 per child.

Available for children up to age 17. The Families First Tax Credit will be available for children up to age 17. This and other eligibility rules will be based on the rules for the existing Child Tax Credit. The credit will phase down for families making over $100,000.

Incentives for lower-income families to work. Like the current EITC, the new Child Tax Credit will phase-in with income. A family making $5,000 will be eligible for a refund of up to $2,000 and a family making $10,000 will be eligible for a refund of up to $4,000 annually. The refund will be capped for families with more than three children.

Expanded benefits for low-income adults without children. Clark's Tax Reform builds on the existing EITC for childless adults, raising the maximum credit from $382 to $500.

No families with incomes under $200,000 will be hurt by Families First Tax Reform. No families with incomes under $200,000 will pay more in taxes than they do today.


Paying for Families First Tax Reform


Wes Clark's Tax Reform will restore fairness to the tax system without increasing the deficit. The Family First credits will cost $33 billion annually - which will be fully paid for by:

A 5 percentage point rate increase on income over $1 million annually-Only impacting the top 0.1 percent of taxpayers. The rate increase will apply to families making more than $1 million annually. In tax year 2004, an estimated 200,000 tax units or 0.1 percent of tax filers earned over $1 million annually.<7> As under current law, the rate increase will not apply to any capital gains and will not apply to the first $1 million earned.

Receipts will be earmarked for lower-income and middle-class families tax reform and could not be used for any other purpose. The money from the 5 percentage point rate increase could only be used for tax reform and could not be used for new spending.

Closing corporate tax loopholes, including ones that reward companies for shifting jobs overseas. Currently the United States provides tax breaks for companies that shift their headquarters - and their jobs - overseas. Wes Clark will crack down on these and other tax shelters, endorsing the Senate Democratic legislation to close tax loopholes that will save an average of $10 billion annually.<8>

$2.35 trillion Savings for America's Future Plan. Previously, Wes Clark announced a Savings for America's Future Plan. This plan includes the repeal of Bush tax cuts that benefit families making over $200,000 annually, cutting corporate welfare, streamlining government, and a success strategy for Iraq. This plan ensures that middle class families are protected from the repeal of the dividend and capital gains tax cuts. It also increases the size of estates exempt from the estate tax from their current-law level. More details of this plan can found at www.clark04.com.


Major Tax Reform


Wes Clark established five basic principles for tax reform: It should make the tax code simpler, fairer, more progressive, and more pro-growth - without increasing the deficit.

Simpler - Eliminating hundreds of pages of the tax code and dozens of pages of forms. Families First Tax Reform will make it possible to reduce hundreds of pages of the tax code down to one easy-to-use form. The IRS could eliminate dozens of pages of forms and publications that confuse taxpayers.<9> All of the confusing definitions of a child used for different parts of the tax code will all be boiled down to one simple definition.


No-returns tax system. More than half of American families will not have to fill out a tax form.
Simplicity will benefit low-income EITC families. Currently, as many as 14 percent of the families with children that could benefit from the EITC fail to sign up for the credit.<10> In addition, there are serious concerns about error rates for the EITC. Many errors stem from the confusing definitions of children. These complications cost low-income families-according to the IRS, 68 percent EITC filers use a paid preparer because the forms are too complicated to figure out on their own.<11>
Simplifying capital taxation. Wes Clark is committed to further simplifying taxes for middle-class families by reforming the taxation of capital.
Fairer - ending the "Middle Class Parent Penalty" and the low-income marriage penalty. Currently millions of low-income families get a marriage penalty in the form of higher taxes. And middle-class families receive less of a tax break for their children than high- or low-income families.<12> Under Families First Tax Reform families will get the same tax break for having a child.

Middle Class Parent Penalty Under Current Law and Wes Clark's Solution

Married Couple With One Child
Current Tax Break Per Child
Families First Tax Credit Per Child

$23,000
$1,763
$2,250

$32,000
$1,305
$2,250

$50,000
$1,458
$2,250

$100,000
$1,763
$2,250






More progressive. Under President Bush, families making over $1 million annually got an average tax break of $128,000-while the income of typical families declined by nearly $1,500. Wes Clark's plan will redress this imbalance, providing tax reform that benefits lower- and middle-income families.

More pro-growth. Wes Clark's Tax Reform will help make work pay for lower-incomes parents while lowering marginal tax rates that provide a disincentive for millions of taxpayers to work. Studies consistently find that the EITC provides a major incentive for work and a way to pay for childcare, transportation and other costs associated with getting a job.


According to one study, more than 60 percent of the increase in the employment of single mothers has been due to expansions of the EITC. Bruce Meyer and Dan Rosenbaum find that 63 percent of the change in the employment of single mothers between 1984 and 1996 can be explained by the expansions of the EITC.<13>
Another study predicted that the 1993 EITC expansion will induce 516,000 families to move from welfare to work. Stacy Dickert, Scott Houser, and John Karl Scholz found that the 1993 EITC expansion will induce 516,000 families to move from welfare to work. <14>
Another study shows that increasing the reward to work, increases labor force participation. Nada Eissa and Jeffrey Liebman found that the EITC significantly increases labor force participation among single mothers, especially less educated women.<15>
Deficit neutral. Reforming the tax code should not be an excuse to increase the deficit. Wes Clark's Tax Reform will be fully paid for, simplifying and improving the tax code without increasing the deficit. This is part of Wes Clark's broader plan to reduce the deficit each and every year, a major down-payment on the goal of eventually balancing the budget.



Background on Families Struggling to Get By

The best-off Americans have the highest share of income since Herbert Hoover was President. The top 0.1 percent of American families get 7.4 percent of the income (not including capital gains) - the highest share of income since 1928.<16>

The typical family's income declined by nearly $1,500 under President Bush, compared to a $7,200 increase under President Clinton. Under President Clinton, family income rose from $45,940 in 1992 to $53,142 in 2000 - a $7,202 increase. Under President Bush the typical family's income fell to $51,680 in 2002 - a $1,461 decrease.<17>

From 1970 to 2000 incomes for middle-class families stagnated while incomes for the best off exploded. The average inflation-adjusted income for the bottom 90 percent of Americans fell 2 percent from 1970 to 2000, while the average inflation-adjusted income for the top 0.1 percent rose 357 percent (not counting capital gains).<18>


Nearly 3 million private-sector jobs lost. The economy has lost nearly 3 million private-sector jobs under President Bush, including 2.6 million manufacturing jobs - with manufacturing job loss each and every month under President Bush.<19>

Health insurance premiums up $2,630. The typical family's health insurance premium has risen by $2,630 between 2000 and 2003 - a 41 percent increase.<20>

Record personal bankruptcies - growing 7.8 percent in 2003. Personal bankruptcies grew 7.8 percent in FY 2003 to over 1.6 million - the highest number of filings on record.<21>

Half of personal bankruptcies are due to health care costs. A study by Jeanne Lambrew found that "about half of all Americans who file for personal bankruptcy protection do so because of health care costs."<22>





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<1> William Gale and Janet Holtzblatt, 1997, "On the Possibility of a No-return Tax System," National Tax Journal.

<2> Jeffrey Liebman, 1/04/03, "Preliminary Estimate of the Effects of General Wesley Clark's Tax Reform Proposal."

<3> Jeffrey Liebman, 1/04/03, "Preliminary Estimate of the Effects of General Wesley Clark's Tax Reform Proposal."

<4> Based on Bureau of Labor Statistics, Consumer Expenditure Survey.

<5> Based on Kaiser Family Foundation, 2003, Employer Health Benefits: 2003.

<6> http://www.nhhfa.org/programdocs/2003rentsurvey_state.pdf.

<7> Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, 9/30/03, "Combined Effect of EGTRRA and JGTRRA: Distribution of Income Tax Change by AGI Class, Pre-EGTRRA Baseline, 2004."

<8> Joint Committee on Taxation, 5/13/03, "Estimated Budget Effects of the ÔJobs and Growth Tax Relief and Reconciliation Act of 2003,' Scheduled for Consideration by the Committee on Finance on May 13, 2003."

<9> Rahm Emanuel, 10/15/03, "Democrats Can Win on Taxes," "Wall Street Journal.

<10> Len Burman and Deborah Kobes, 1/18/2002, Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center Policy Note, http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/commentary/eitc_gao.cfm.

<11> Internal Revenue Service, 8/3/03, "Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) Program Effectiveness and Program

Management FY 2002 - FY 2003."

<12> David Ellwood and Jeffrey Liebman, 2001, "The Middle-class Parent Penalty: Child Benefits in the U.S. Tax Code," Tax Policy and the Economy.

<13> Bruce Meyer and Dan Rosenbaum, September 1999, "Welfare, the Earned Income Tax Credit, and the Labor Supply of Single Mothers." National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper No. 7363.

<14> Stacy Dickert, Scott Houser, and John Karl Scholz, 1995, "The Earned Income Tax Credit and Transfer Programs: A Study of Labor Market and Program Participation." Tax Policy and the Economy.

<15> Nada Eissa and Jeffrey Liebman, 1996, "Labor Supply Response and the Earned Income Tax Credit," Quarterly Journal of Economics.

<16> Calculations based on data from Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, originally in "Income Inequality in the United States, 1913-1998," NBER Working Paper No. 8467. Available at http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/saez/.

<17> Calculations based on Census Bureau data.

<18> Calculations based on data from Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, originally in "Income Inequality in the United States, 1913-1998," NBER Working Paper No. 8467. Available at http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/saez/.

<19> Bureau of Labor Statistics data.

<20> Kaiser Family Foundation, 2003, Employer Health Benefits: 2003.

<21> American Bankruptcy Institute, 11/14/03, "Personal Bankruptcy Filings Continue to Break Records."

<22> Jeanne Lambrew, November 2001, "How the Slowing U.S. Economy Threatens Employer-based Health Insurance," Commonwealth Fund.
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General Wesley Clark's "Saving for America's Future Plan"

Saving $2.35 trillion over ten years for deficit reduction and investment in priorities.

Wes Clark has a plan to save $2.35 trillion over ten years. The plan reduces the deficit and frees up money to invest in priorities like education and health care. Under Wes Clark's plan the deficit is reduced every year. But this plan is only a down payment on the challenging goals of a balanced budget and full readiness for the retirement of the baby boomers - and further tough steps will be needed. Deficit reduction and investment in priorities are key parts of Wes Clark's plan to jumpstart the economy and create jobs, save for the future, and invest in people.


Saving For America's Future

Putting America on a course for more fiscal responsibility in the future would be good for the economy today, helping to restore confidence, keeping long-term interest rates lower, while ensuring that America meets its obligations to the future. That's why Wes Clark is proposing a plan to save more than $2 trillion for America's future - providing resources to reduce the deficit and invest in priorities like healthcare and education. Wes Clark's "Saving for America's Future Plan" provides effective stimulus for the economy without increasing the deficit in 2004 and 2005 by redeploying $100 billion in tax cuts for the most fortunate families into bigger bang-for-buck investments in homeland security, state fiscal relief, and incentives for business to create jobs and grow.

Wes Clark's plan would:
Pay for proposals. Wes Clark would restore the basic principle of responsibility to the budget process: all tax and spending proposals must be paid for without increasing the deficit. This principle, called PAYGO in Washington budget rules, was a consensus during periods of deficit from President Clinton to House Speaker Newt Gingrich, but the Bush administration has entirely ignored it.


Streamline government and improve efficiency, including healthcare: $225 billion. Wes Clark's plan would streamline government and improve efficiency, including in healthcare. On defense, Wes Clark supports every dime needed to keep America strong, but he won't tolerate billions of dollars in waste or inefficiency just because it has a military label on it.


End corporate welfare and close corporate loopholes: $300 billion. Wes Clark won't tolerate corporate welfare or corporate loopholes in the tax code. These provisions waste resources while providing companies with incentives to pursue handouts instead productivity growth and job creation. Wes Clark supports creation of the Corporate Subsidy Reform Commission to identify corporate welfare and then force Congress to vote up or down on an entire package of cuts. He'll also close loopholes in the tax code, like the ones that allow companies to avoid taxes by shifting income to Bermuda or buying life insurance for non-executive employees who never see a dime.


Promote a more effective and multilateral Iraq policy: $125 billion. In two budget requests, President Bush has asked Congress for a total of $166 billion for Iraq and other conflicts, but he has been unable to get any meaningful assistance from other countries. Wes Clark would reverse the Bush Administration's failed Iraq policy and work more effectively with NATO and other partners.


Recapture revenue from the provisions of President Bush's tax cuts for the wealthiest families-those making over $200,000 annually: $1.1 trillion. Wes Clark would propose a tax reform package to make the tax code simpler, fairer, more progressive, and more pro-growth. In the process, this reform would recapture the revenue from the provisions of the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts that go to families making over $200,000 annually, either by repealing these provisions or making other changes to recapture the revenue. Wes Clark's plan would protect the estate tax repeal for small businesses and family farms and would ensure that middle-class families get the benefit of lower taxes on dividends.
In addition, Wes Clark's plan would save $600 billion in additional debt service savings as a result of reducing the deficit more quickly.

The benefits of Wes Clark's responsible policies for America's future are:
Responsibility not to pass tax increases onto our children;


Responsibility to improve our fiscal situation so that America's seniors have a secure Social Security and Medicare;


Responsibility to keep interest rates lower today and in the future, stimulate the economy, create jobs, and foster investment and homeownership;


Responsibility to have America live within its means without unprecedented and unsustainable borrowing from abroad;


Responsibility to address urgent problems of uninsured children and crumbling schools.
Details of Wes Clark's Plan to Save $2.35 Trillion Over 10 Years


Wes Clark's budget saves $2.35 trillion over ten years for deficit reduction and spending on priorities relative to a continuation of President Bush's current policies.



Note: All savings are relative to a baseline that assumes President Bush's policies are continued, including his proposal to make the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts permanent, and the likely consequence of his Iraq policy.



Streamlining Government and Improving Efficiency


As president, Wes Clark would save $225 billion by implementing a budget that streamlines government, ends redundant spending programs, and improves efficiency. Wes Clark's plan would make the following specific changes to streamline government. He'll also take a hard look at the rest of government to find additional savings toward his goal of saving $225 billion over ten years.

Eliminate the Commerce Department's NTIA. With the convergence of telecommunications and technology, there's no longer a need for both the Commerce Department's Technology Administration (TA) and its National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA). Therefore, Wes Clark would eliminate the NTIA. NTIA's core governmental functions-such as research and efforts to close the digital divide-would be shifted to other government agencies (such as TA).


Eliminate Office of Thrift Supervision. The Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) was established in the late 1980s when there were roughly 3,000 Savings and Loan (S&L) institutions. Today, there are a less than 1,000. With four other federal regulators of banks, the time has come to eliminate OTS and shift the regulation of S&Ls to one of the other federal bank regulators (e.g., the Federal Reserve, Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, etc.).


Consolidate trade promotion activities. According to the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee, ten federal agencies help U.S. firms export their products abroad. For example, one agency promotes international trade among American businesses (the Department of Commerce). For farmers, a different agency is responsible for promoting exports (the Department of Agriculture). Businesses seeking financing for exports can apply to the Export-Import Bank or the Overseas Private Investment Corporation. As President, Wes Clark would consolidate the trade promotion activities of the U.S. government into fewer agencies, which will save money and simplify government, helping citizens and businesses to get what they need from their government and enabling more effective promotion of U.S. exports.


Consolidate statistical agencies. Today, at least 70 different federal agencies engage in statistical activities. The division of labor between these statistical agencies often makes little sense. Experts have concluded that consolidation of the major economic statistical agencies would produce better data at a lower cost. Therefore, as President, Wes Clark would consolidate the principal statistical agencies into a single agency called Statistics USA, modeled after Statistics Canada.


Institute competitive bidding and payment constraints for medical equipment. Wes Clark believes we should end overpayments to medical equipment suppliers for the provision of medical equipment like wheel chairs, and canes. That's why he supports instituting a competitive bidding or payment constraints for Medicare contracts with these suppliers. The policy would provide for special exceptions for rural communities to ensure sufficient access to these supplies.


Save on drug payments by Medicare. According to the Department of Health and Human Services' Inspector General and the General Accounting Office, Medicare has been significantly overpaying for the few prescription drugs it actually pays for within the Medicare program. Wes Clark believes that Medicare should set payment rates closer to acquisition costs, while maintaining policies that provide doctors with the flexibility to prescribe these drugs when needed.


Better enforcement of the Medicare secondary payer provision. The law requires that Medicare be a secondary payer for elderly workers who have employer-provided health care. These seniors' private health care plans are supposed to be the primary payer, and Medicare is supposed to supplement coverage only where there are gaps in an employer's plan. Studies have shown, however, that many employers are illegally passing payments on to the government. A more aggressive auditing policy can achieve significant savings.


Reduce market entry barriers for generic drug competition. Wes Clark believes in reducing market entry barriers for generic drugs so consumers can benefit from lower drug prices. Today, brand-name companies systematically abuse a legal loophole that delays the availability of generic drugs into the health care system. As President, Wes Clark will ensure that drug companies have the incentive to invest in research and development while eliminating the 30-month stay that brand-name companies automatically receive when generic manufacturers attempt to enter the market.
End Corporate Welfare and Close Corporate Loopholes


Wes Clark would save $300 billion by ending wasteful corporate welfare and closing tax shelters.

End Corporate Welfare as we know it. Wes Clark won't tolerate corporate welfare or corporate loopholes in the tax code that waste resources while providing companies with the wrong incentives. That's why Wes Clark supports the Corporate Subsidy Reform Commission, which would put in place a base-closing style commission to identify corporate welfare and force Congress to vote up or down on an entire package of proposals.


Close tax shelters that benefit the few and harm the middle class. Sophisticated accountants and lawyers have created wasteful - and often illegal - tax shelters to reduce the taxes that corporations and rich Americans pay. As President, Wes Clark would aggressively prosecute illegal tax shelters and close down those that are legal but outrageous.
Promote a More Effective and Multilateral Iraq Policy


Wes Clark would Save $125 billion from 2006-15 by promoting a more effective and multilateral Iraq policy.

President Bush has submitted requests for $166 billion for the war in Iraq and additional costs of the war on terrorism. These requests, however, are only a down payment on the full costs of the war. The Democratic Staff of the House Budget Committee estimates that under Scenario C "Things Go Worse" the conflict in Iraq would cost $418 billion from 2003-13, $180 billion more than Scenario A "Things Go Well." <"The Cost of War and Reconstruction in Iraq: An Update," 9/23/03>. Measured over Wes Clark's 2006-15 budget window, this is a savings of $125 billion. This is a conservative estimate of the savings from Wes Clark's policy, which would:
Resolve the ongoing conflict in Iraq more quickly and effectively.


Effectively incorporate allies, ensuring that they pay a meaningful share of the reconstruction.


Require competitive bidding to ensure that taxpayers were getting the best possible value for their reconstruction dollars.
President Bush's Record: Huge Deficits but Declining Jobs

Under President Bush, America has gone from record surpluses to record deficits. Though fiscal deterioration is normal in times of war or recession, the Bush deficits have not provided effective stimulus to curb job loss, and the deficits are projected to worsen even when strong economic growth resumes.


From a $5 trillion projected surplus to a $5 trillion projected deficit. America has gone from a record dollar surplus of $236 billion in FY 2000 to a record dollar deficit of about $374 billion in FY 2003. In January 2001, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projected a unified surplus of $5.6 trillion from 2002-11. Today, leading analysts like Goldman Sachs, the Concord Coalition, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and the Committee for Economic Development agree that making realistic adjustments to CBO's baseline projection reveals a 2004-13 deficit of about $5 trillion.


Pete Peterson, currently Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and former Secretary of Commerce under President Nixon: "In just two years there was a $10 trillion swing in the deficit outlook." <"Deficits and Dysfunction," New York Times Magazine, 6/8/03>


Three leading groups - the Concord Coalition, the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (CBPP), and the Committee on Economic Development (CED) - recently stated that if current policies are continued then "the coming decade is likely to rank as the most fiscally irresponsible in our nation's history." <"The Developing Crisis - Deficits Matter," 9/29/03>


3.2 million lost private-sector jobs - including 2.5 million lost in manufacturing. Between 1993 and 2001, the American economy created nearly 21 million private-sector jobs. Since President Bush took office, the American economy has lost 3.2 million private-sector jobs - that's the worst record on jobs since Herbert Hoover during the Great Depression. The economy has lost jobs in 26 of the 32 months since President Bush took office.


The Bush tax cuts cost three times more than the cost of saving Social Security for 75 years. Over the next 75 years, the Administration's tax cuts would reduce revenue by $12 trillion to $14 trillion in present value - more than three times the Social Security deficit over the same period.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Guess I'd better stop. This is getting loooooooooong.

"Liberals for Dummies" must be pretty damned good book.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. P.S. For more information, visit this page:
http://clark04.com/issues/



Oh, on second thought, I don't have to buy "Liberals for Dummies". I'll just use Wes' website!!!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 07:41 AM
Response to Original message
42. No. n/t
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
43. 38 Mayflower democrats...
I almost left your select club. But Clark told me to stay...Geez, I wonder what made him do that?
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
44. It's been a long time.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 08:37 AM by Donna Zen
I realize it has been a long time since we have seen a Democrat with a backbone and you probably had forgotten what one looked like. Sorry you missed him, Wes Clark is a great Democrat. He is so good in fact, he continues to speak out in spite of attitudes like those found on this thread.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. No but McCain is. nt
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
49. I don't think he's Republican
He's thrown his lot in with the Dems and so he is a Dem. Seems pretty simple to me.

Past considerations are just that, "past". He's working for our cause so I think he's on our side.

Julie
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
52. Hypocracy
would seem to be rampant today.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
53. No, and he would be a grea VP
:-)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
67. Wow, I'd never have guessed the results would be like this
He's actually one of the only candidates not to run away from a 'liberal' label.
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cosmokramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
70. Stunning that 47 people voted that he is...
...is the ignorance that widespread????

Ridiculous!

Sure glad these dems have a litmus test for what it means to be a democrat. Good thing we have some people in the Democratic Party behaving like Nazis (tongue in cheek).
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. On the other hand, it seems
that the majority of people on this board would be perfectly happy to have a pure, died in the wool, conservative Republican on the Democratic ticket-see all the McCain threads.

Maybe all the people saying that Clark is a Republican are really just saying that they want him on the ticket.:shrug:
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cosmokramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. It is stunning...
...the folly and bitterness. Stunning.

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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #75
84. Its beginning to turn my stomache
Meanwhile as jersey points out Clark is doing more for Kerry than any other former candidate.



:puke:
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #70
98. Not ignorance - jealousy and fear
If Wesley Clark were not being considered for some spot (in some people's perceptions, at least) absolutlely no one on this board would care about the crap currently being spouted on this thread and others. It is sad that the only way some can build their guy up is by tearing ours down.

I guess, in all honesty, instead of being angry and offended by this crap, we should really be feeling pity for those people - BUT by damn, it's hard.
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
71. I think he would be a member of whatever party advanced his interests.
If there were a Democratic president in office right now and there had been a crowded field of Republicans running for President, Clark would have been out there assuring everyone that he was a committed Republican. I just don't think the guy has any overriding principles. I think he's just an opportunist who will take on whatever position he thought he needed to.

Harsh, I know, but that's my take on the man.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
100. Well as long as you don't claim your opinion is backed up by
any facts, you are certainly free to express it without fear of contradiction. Maybe you could have a future in TV commentary, or aspire to be a certified "pundit".
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. Clark was a republican.
He did vote for Nixon but now Clark is a democrat.
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cosmokramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Fercrippesake, VOTING for a republican
...doesn't make you a republican. Good God, what is the matter with...

So, I suppose that Dems who VOTE with the republican's in the Senate ARE republican's too then?

Hmmm...let's count them...
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Like I said.
Clark was a Republican but now he is a Democrat. If you vote for a republican for president you are a republican.

And all the dems in the senate are registered democrats which make them democrats.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. So, what if you are registered as a Dem but vote for a Republican for
President? What does that make you? A half breed?
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. I agree with you.
But the only registered democrat in the senate who will vote for Bush is Zell Miller. Which makes him a republican.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #80
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cosmokramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
86. If you vote for a republican president...
...it DOES NOT make you a republican. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard anyone say in my life.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #86
107. If you voted for Nixon.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:10 PM by MATTMAN
Than you are definitely a republican.
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. He didn't just vote for a Republican once.
He voted for Nixon, Reagan and the elder Bush. The question is, when the hell did he ever vote for a Democrat? Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that you could vote for a Republican three times and still call yourself a Dem. Also, voting for a Repug for President is different from voting for a single Repug lawmaker. When you vote for president, you vote to stock the entire executive branch with Repug appointees, many of whom stay on long after their presidential patron is gone. Voting for a Repug for president even once is simply inexcusable. To do it three times is just, well...

Also, all the gushing praise about Bush Jr. before he decided to run for president is a little suspicious. Sorry, a lot suspicious.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. NO, the question is WHY THE HELL DOES IT EVEN MATTER?????
I wish you guys could all quit feeling threatened by him so you could quit with the crap.
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Why does it matter that he repeatedly voted for Republicans?
If you have to ask, I doubt there's anything I could say to you.

Oh, and it's juvenile to suggest that whenever someone dogs a candidate it means they "fear" him or are "threatened" by him. Clark is finished in politics. What could anyone have to fear from him?
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cosmokramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. I am going to bookmark this thread...
...so I can come back here in 9 months and laugh at you when Clark is in the Kerry administration.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. Cosmo, I guess if Clark is part of the Kerry administration,
some of these people will have to switch parties b/c it sure would kill them to look at him as a decent Democrat.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
93. That's exactly my point. If he is "finished in politics, then
he is a normal person just like you and me - albeit with a little more name recognition (lol). Therefore IT DOES NOT MATTER. Does it matter to you what I am? Does it matter to me what you are? NO.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. What is that supposed to mean?
I don't appreciate Nazi allusions.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #88
109. That is very slanderous. . .
To compare someone who disagrees with a member of the Nazi party.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. You've been watching Faux News too much
and sucked up all the anti-Clark bullshit.

Many, many, democrats have at one time or another voted for a republican. Clark explained why he voted the way he did. He was focused on the task of building the volunteer military and felt the Republican Presidents were stronger in ther support at the time for funds for that purpose. No one here is claiming he was a Democrat at that time. But he certainly wasn't a strong partisan for the repugs either. One of the other posts in this thread point out that Clark has not ever contributed to the Republican party according to public records at the FEC site.

I wish people around here would show him a little more respect, he has done quite a lot to help us and made personal sacrifices to do so. He ran a very clean campaign and is now raising a bushelful of money for our nominee.
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FreeSpeechCrusader Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #79
101. So why don't you
just go tell all the democratic voters that have voted for republican president to go fuck off and see where it leaves our party...this is some of the most ignorant shit that I have ever seen. Clark was a military man. He voted on military issues. He had soldiers to take care of. He had soldier's families to feed. He had men and women that were sacrificing everything for our nation, and he voted on whom would be suit the needs of the military. I mean what the fuck is wrong with that. The soldiers defend our nation, and General Clark defended his soldiers by voting for whom he felt would be best able to take care of his soldiers...
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. Sorry, the fact that he was military was no excuse.
Since when do you accept the premise that the Republican party is the party that best suits the needs of military personnel and military families?
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FreeSpeechCrusader Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. I don't accept it...
but I am not Wesley Clark. I did not have soldier's families to take care of. I can only say that Wesley Clark was watching out for those whom he commanded. He assessed the candidates, and he voted for whom he felt would take the best care of his soldiers. I mean shit....if everyone that has ever voted for a republican president were cut from the democratic party...we would have our asses handed to us in every election. You appear to think that anyone that has ever voted for a repub president shouldn't have a chance with the democratic party...I myself see this as independent thinking which in my mind is a very great aspect as it infers to me that Clark actually thinks and ponders what is best instead of just voting the party line.
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Your response is generally fair.
I would point out one thing, though: Dems running for our party's presidential nomination should be held to higher standard than rank and file party members, don't you think?
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FreeSpeechCrusader Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #108
113. The way that I look at it
is that he could have just as easily have never stated that he voted for the repubs, and this would have been politically adventageous to Clark. But he is brutally honest, and I find that as a much more desirable trait in a presidential candidate that I do always voting party lines.
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ChiefJoseph Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #113
120. You make a fair point.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. Clark voted republican.
Skirt the issue all you want but it comes down to who he voted for on the ballot and he voted for the Republicans. And voting for Nixon who is the worst president someone could every vote for.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Don't confuse them with facts.
They'll only say you have no 'evidence', or some such nonsense...
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Well its the damn truth.
There is no excuse for voting for Nixon.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Only those who are DEEPLY in denial....
won't admit that he used to be (emphasis added for the paranoid and reading-comprehension impaired) a Republican, before he converted under Bill Clinton...
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Is there anything good about voting for Nixon?
I can't think of one good thing that crook Nixon did to this country. He is by far one of the worst presidents this country has ever seen.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Nixon, Reagan AND Bush 41.
I mean, come ON! If that's not 'Republican' I don't know :wtf: IS... :shrug:
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Apparently.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:34 PM by MATTMAN
Some people don't think that Clark is a republican. But Clark voted for some of the worst presidents this country has ever seen. But I can forgive Clark.
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Cuban_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. I don't think he IS a Republican any more, but I think he WAS.
Edited on Thu Mar-11-04 06:38 PM by Cuban_Liberal
A huge % of his supporters are having LOTS more of a problem admitting this than Gen. Clark himself ever did, and it makes me wonder why...
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #121
127. That is so wrong
Clark NEVER admitted to being a Republican. That is precisely why we defend him on this.

He admitted to voting for Republicans. That we do not deny either.

I wouldn't care if he were a Republican now, but he isn't, and he never was.

Some of you may not be old enough to remember that, before the "Reagan Revolution," the Republicans were actually not that conservative--not by today's standards, and not with the level of control that the far right exerts today. They had a much wider tent. There was such a thing as a "Rockefeller Republican" and they were more liberal than some Democrats I know.

Especially in the South (where Clark grew up), MANY Democrats were Dixie-crats and VERY anti-civil rights. I know when I was growing up in Georgia, it was the Repubs who were more liberal--the Democrats gave us Lester Maddox afterall.

Remember too, this was before the rise of the religious right. Many if not most Repubs were pro-choice, and a lot of Democrats weren't. Fundamentalism was not near the faction in politics that it is now.

Republicans tended to be the internationalists. They were the ones to support NATO and other multilateral organizations. Remember, it was Nixon who first went to China, and the cultural exchanges with the Soviet Union largely started on his watch.

It was a different political scene back then, in a lot of ways. The Vietnam war was a major defining event, civil rights were the other. But the parties didn't divide up evenly on either issue, and overlapped a great deal on just about everything else.

And for what it's worth, Kerry's NH campaign manager, the former governor who was one of the loudest to call Clark a Republican, admitted on Chris Matthews' show that she voted for Nixon. Obviously, a lot of people did, since McGovern did so poorly.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Declaring a party
Democrat:

Republican:

Independent:

Clark was an Independent who at one time voted for some republicans. He was never ever ever a registered republican.

He believed that the military should remain unaffiliated because they served the country not the party.

He retired in June of 2000 and is now a registered Democrat.

The Republican party can be proud to have understood the value of Powell, although he disagrees with the majority of the party on nearly every issue. Unlike the results here where over 20% of the participants reject someone who agrees with them on most issues.

What does this say about us?
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. I can agree with that.
What really matters is that Clark is now a Democrat.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
122. He was till Rove wouldn't answer his phone call. LOL
Can we go home now?
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
129. Howard Dean said so, so it must be true.
The Howard was a straight shooter, and wouldn't tell a lie like that for political gain.
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
132. Yeahgrhhreahhrghea!!!! n/t
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
133. He is a Republican.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. No he isn't!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. Yes he is!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. No he isn't!
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. Deleted Message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Hey, this is kind of fun.
Just like old times.:)
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. LOL
your doing great!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. Ignored
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. If I didn't already have you on Ignore
you would really get a piece of my mind for saying that.:mad:

Hi Jim, hope this post doesn't get deleted.:hi:
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LDS Jock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-11-04 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
142. cheap shot
calling him a republican
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ClarkUeberAlles Donating Member (63 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-12-04 05:13 AM
Response to Original message
143. When does the statute of limitations
run out on voting republican. Clark voted last voted for a republican president 15 years ago. How much time must past before he is officially forgiven for this sin?
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