OK, Hillary Supporters, we know how your candidate has so many years of experience, but can't run a

[xultar]

campaign to save her life. Which makes me question her experience frankly.

Admit it. SHE SUCKS at campaigning. Which is the easy part. She's just supposed to tell the people what she's good @ and keep the bad press @ bay instead of inviting it over for fucking dinner.

What are Hillary Clinton's flaws?

Let's discuss them.

[Bright Eyes]

1. ....

:popcorn: Good luck to you!

[Crooked Moon]

2. ...

ms. clinton is 2-0 in elections and is in a virtual tie for her party's nomination for the presidency of the united states with more than half of the primaries and caucuses tallied.

to say she sucks at campaigning would be baseless, at best.

[RandomKoolzip]

3. Actually, I think she's great at campaigning.

Obama's got my vote right now, but I can admit happily that Clinton is facile at message management, image control, and the stagecraft necessary to modern politics. She also connects sincerely with many voters and lets it be known publicly. WHen she was moved to tears, I didn't consider it a ploy, like many Obama and Edwards supporters did. I think she's a fantastic candidate and would vote for her in a heartbeat.


(This all sounds like the doublespeak of a wild-eyed cultist, doesn't it?)

[xultar]

7. Personally she stuck her foot into every hole on the campaign trail. I don't

think her prowess is as great as they say.

Frankly she sucks, who she picked to run her campaign sucks, the people running it suck. IT is a suck fest.

[surfermaw]

41. How many campaigns have you run.

[xultar]

48. Hey I'm just giving my opinion. Just say you don't agree.

[maddiejoan]

4. I'll bite

1) strategic vote casting (especially regards military) to circumvent her image as a "liberal" and a "woman".

2) running a 20th Century campaign in the 21st Century.

3) early misstep of trusting her handlers (and Bill) over her own good judgement. (She does much better when she's her authentic self)

4) A - Line skirts would flatter her figure more than pantsuits.

[xultar]

11. I agree with everything except 4. Why discuss her clothes and pants are a must.

[maddiejoan]

13. #4

was a joke I decided to slip into the mix :)

[xultar]

14. I figured but I hadda say it.

[speedoo]

32. "strategic vote casting (especially regards military)" = IWR

Well at least you know why she did it. She voted to authorize an unnecessary and immoral war in order to enhance her presidential campaign. This alone is reason enough for me to never vote for her or support her again.

She has a lot of blood on her hands.

Fucking warmonger.

[xultar]

35. YEah, but Obama voted to fund for the same reason. If he really wanted to be

anti-war I think he would have voted against war funding.

That's just my opinion. And we all know I suck so it doesn't mean shit.

[TwilightGardener]

43. Well, I dispute that. De-funding is an extreme, and undesirable, way to

end a war. I would rather not end the war that way myself, and my husband is IN the military, and has deployed for the war and will do so again. It's a last resort, and I almost wish he hadn't voted to defund last May, because that might weaken him in the general election (along with Hillary), when the RW makes the "you wanted to strand the troops with no money or rifles" argument. Saying that you can't be against the war if you're not willing to defund it is not a valid argument--there are better, safer ways to end it.

[xultar]

49. I agree but the progressives here were pushing it. The vote would have gone through anyway.

But he would have had that anti-war mop up.

[TwilightGardener]

53. I think the focus, once the primaries are over, will not be the anti-war,

defunding, Out-of-Iraq-Now contingent that's been so vocal--the focus by our nominee will be on getting out of Iraq slowly and responsibly, with an emphasis on military planning and national security and terrorism-fighting. That's our challenge in the general election, whether it's Hillary or Obama, and fortunately, they haven't said anything too damaging yet--except for that one defunding vote. That will come back to bite them, and I blame the Code Pink crown for pushing them that far left.

[xultar]

56. True DAT. I toally agree.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[joshcryer]

6. She spent too much money on higher ups, she should've been paying people on the ground.

Obama wins caucuses because he pays people on the ground to essentially get the vote out for him. He pours shitloads of money into staffers.

Hillary needs to take a clue and do the same.

[xultar]

8. STRAIGHT UP! If I hired a fucker who asked for hundreds of thousands of $$$

to run a campaign I'd kick his ass to the fucking curb and his crony fuckers.

[joshcryer]

18. Agreed. Mark Penn should give them a fucking refund if he can't win it. 4.3 million? Jesus.

[xultar]

22. That guy, OMG. Boy do I wanna open a can of whoop ass on him.

[Marie26]

29. Does anyone know

what Axelrod makes? What's the going rate for a campaign manager, anyway? I can't imagine that Huckabee's manager makes much.

[hedda_foil]

54. Axelrod has made $1 M -- 1/4 of Penn's take.

His contract calls for a cap on his take. Looks like $1 M was the cap, since he's placed at least as many ads as Penn and that's where the money is for these guys.

[TwilightGardener]

10. As an Obama supporter, I disagree--she can run a campaign just fine--

she's very skilled. But she's running into the same sort of problem that the Republicans would run into against Obama--if the experience argument doesn't take him down (and it hasn't so far), then what do you attack him on? Likeability? He's got that. Good speaker? Check. Solid if not overwhelming debate performances? Check. Pretty clean, scandal-wise? Check. Skeletons? They're pretty much out there, and minor, after George W. Bush and Bill Clinton. How do you go for the jugular on him? His voting record is about it--the "present" votes, various Senate votes--but that doesn't seem to be sticking. All she's got left is to either hope the Clinton brand name, past goodwill, state endorsements, and some unsavory stuff (racial issues, especially among Latinos and the white blue-collar rust-belt/Bible belt crowd) works for her in Texas, PA, OH--or to hope that he stumbles. She's done very well, overall. She's just up against a very good opponent.

[xultar]

12. I don't like who she picked to run her campaign. From there...it just goes down hill.

I think she fell in every trap she could.

AND she can't get that IWR thing down. I think she is playing it wrong and from my perspective she doesn't have to apologise to work it.

Hey, how long do brownies last in the fridge? do you know? I baked some about 7 days ago and Id like one now but I don't want to die or anything.
I got killer food poisoning in December so I'm gun shy.

[TwilightGardener]

17. I've never PUT brownies in the fridge--or any baked goods. They're out until

they are eaten or go stale. Since the eggs that made the batter are cooked, it's doubtful they would be able to be much of a medium for bacteria to thrive in. I think you can eat them, no worries. Don't be suing me if I'm wrong and you get the shits tomorrow, but the only food-poisoning concern I've ever had about baked goods was mold.

[joshcryer]

20. In democracy getting votes is the key. You don't get votes by spreading BS.

Most people probably don't understand that Obama attacks Clinton in every speech he gives, and is constantly using veiled remarks to attack her. All people see are hundreds of people on the ground, paid staffers, stumping for Obama very empathatically. And this works because people are going to be a lot more enthuasitic about you if you pay them to be.

Obama spent $20 million on hundreds if not thousands of staffers. It worked.

[TwilightGardener]

27. Well, attacking the opponent is part of politics--you've got to say

why someone should vote for YOU, and not for that OTHER person, so I don't see anything wrong with it at all, as long as it's not too personal/dirty. As far as building an organization with supporters in each state, with field offices, etc.--Obama knows how to do that from his Chicago days, and yes, he's done it well. And money talks--he knows how to raise it and where to spend it, so you're right on that too. Not that Hillary's campaign hasn't done any of this, but I don't think they thought the ground game/fundraising game would matter this much--I'm pretty sure they thought Super Tuesday would have wrapped this up, that Obama could not have been competetive in more than a few states. Now they're seeing where they should have put their efforts and money, perhaps. The millions to high-priced consultants and advisors and pollsters should have been redirected to boring infrastructure, maybe. She is still favored to win, though, so her approach may be vindicated in the end.

[xultar]

39. I don't know. I think she could do well with playing down the strategy and playing up

her message. I think the screw ups threw her off.

[Marie26]

15. She's a great campaigner

She's spoken at hundreds of rallies, done great at debates, good ads & "town hall" special. I really like that she focuses on specific policies and answering questions from voters. But it's the old-fashioned establishment Dem kind of campaign. Obama's done much better at creating and harnessing the grass-roots/Internet organization.

[xultar]

23. I think that challenging Obama to a debate and town hall was sophomoric at best.

It gave her campaign the air of desperation.

[Marie26]

25. Aww.

The debates, yes, reeked of desperation. But I really did like the town-hall. It transformed me from a reluctant to enthusiastic Clinton supporter. She got to show off her expertise & knowledge of many different issues, and really interact w/voters. The questions were good, better than the MSM questions, IMO. And I really, really liked that she talked about ending the outsourcing & privitization of government. It really wasn't that expensive & IMO it paid off. One poll showed that the majority of people who decided in the last day went for Clinton, & maybe the townhall had something to do with that.

[xultar]

28. Did Obama respond to that invite?

[Marie26]

31. Which invite?

The debates? AFAIK, he turned down the debate-a-week offer, but will debate her in Ohio & Texas.

[xultar]

34. The invite to the Town Hall she proposed.

[Marie26]

44. I don't think there was an invite

Clinton paid for the time for that town-hall meeting; she wouldn't want to give Obama a platform. Unless you're talking about some other town-hall meeting.

[xultar]

47. I have a link...I think she invited him to one in Maine this weekend since they were

both going to be there.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/07/hillary-invites-obama-to-_n_85575.html

[Marie26]

16. Dupe. nt

[mondo joe]

19. Aside from the campaigning: I'm not happy with her IWR vote, and I think she

too often tries to play her choices both ways.

And yet I prefer her to the other guy.

[xultar]

21. I know why she did it, she was running for 2k8 even then. That vote bit her in the ass.

Too bad she couldn't see that it would have passed without her and taken the high road.

I think though that she can get passed it without apologising but she needs to quit the double talk on it and just come right out with it..without sounding like she's too stubborn. Mainly because the majority of the US was for the IWR vote so they feel just as dooped. I think if she plays that she'll get passed it.

[mondo joe]

24. Yes. I don't think Clinton is the greatest candidate of our age. I feel fairly grounded

in my support.

[xultar]

26. One of Hillary's flaws in my eyes is her in ability to take control of the IWR without

fucking it up.

Everytime she opens her mouth on it she screws it up. Why she hasn't gotten some help on it is weird to me.

[robbedvoter]

30. Considering she's running a primary and a GE at the same time - she does GREAT!

She confounded all the dire prediction - California, NJ, Mass. And in spite of the blackout of her success and media touting her opponent, she stil raised more money.
So, what's your problem?

[xultar]

37. I just think she allowed to many mistakes to happen and she let the Obama camp

play her into corners.

But essentially they are her mistakes to make, and she made them.

[robbedvoter]

45. Actually, Obama had the Mighty Wurlitzer of the corporate media amplify his

attacks and black out hers. And somehow, she's still making herself heard by her base. To me, that's brilliant.
Hillary didn't make any more "mistakes" than Gore said "I invented the internet"

[xultar]

51. Oh you got that right. But why did it take so long for the HRC camp to catch that.

I guess it took them by surprise.

[paulk]

33. I would agree with the poster upthread

that she hasn't fought for the caucus states hard enough. She's put her money into primaries, especially in big, delegate rich states. Obama poured a ton of money into the my caucus, Colorado, and it paid off for him in a big win.

OTOH - this may have been a brilliant strategy on her part. Right now it's a virtual tie and 21 of the next 26 contests are primaries. This clearly favors Hillary's strategy.

[xultar]

36. But it makes her look like she's effin up.

[paulk]

38. only because it interfers with the media's "inevetability" meme

I think the Clinton camp always expected this to be close and planned accordingly. They knew the media wouldn't be on their side.
I do think they understimated the amount of media adoration that Obama would get, though...

[xultar]

40. True.

[bigtree]

42. she's almost equal with Obama in this campaign. You don't have a legitimate point.

You think the ability to get folks to send money is the measure of a 'good campaign'? Measuring the candidate's worth by money raised is so far removed from Democratic principles. If they had equal access and visibility, these money questions would fall by the wayside in favor of the issues and concerns we all say we care so much about. This is a phony measure of worth.

[robbedvoter]

46. Actually she is ahead. She raised MORE money since Super Tuesday (7.5 mil compared to 7.2

from Obama). In spite of media blackout.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4469641

[xultar]

50. That is fucking AMAZING. Good on her and her camp.

[Cleita]

52. With all due respect Xultar you know I love your posts most of

the time, but you are wrong here. If Hillary was so bad at campaigning, Edwards would be running against Obama now instead of her.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

55. aren't you special....does it make you feel like you belong?