Sixty-four pages. Sixty-four pages of clear, concrete-specific, detailed plans for the White House

[Political Heretic]

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaBlueprintForChange.pdf

Clinton supporters (note the lack of name calling) with all due respect to you and the esteemed Senator from New York, many of you (not all but a really sizable number here on DU)keep pushing this same failing message that Obama supporters are blind followers, or swindled by empty emotionalism, or following a candidate with no substance, and yet you never have anything to say when confronted with 64 pages of concrete-specific plans for leadership from the White House.

And it isn't just sixty-four pages of detailed, bulleted descriptions of exactly what Obama would work to accomplish in the White House - sometimes including detail right down to program initiatives and monetary costs -- its been specifics reiterated on the campaign trail. He was in my own city last week and yes his message included those evil words "hope" and "change" but it also included details about specific programs, and exactly what he would do as President for working Americans like me - with specifics.

John Kerry's platform was not more detailed and specific than Obama's 64 page policy document. Did you criticize him for being "empty" and not having any real ideas? Al Gore's 2000 platform was not more detailed and specific, even in the general election. Did you criticize him? Hillary Clinton's platform is no more detailed. Are you criticizing your own candidate for being empty and vacuous?

That's what makes me most upset about SOME Clinton supporters right now - MANY when it comes to what I read here at DU: as much as I attempt to stay respectful of them, so many of them in turn keep using this right-wing tactics of just repeating the same lie (and I'm sorry but it is a lie) over and over and over again, even when confronted with evidence that their statements are untrue. Just keep saying the lie long enough until it sticks -- that makes me sick. :(

So, I'm just going to tell it like it is. You (and only you, not all Clinton supporters) who keep pushing these meme that Obama is all about fluffy talk and no policy are liars. Yes. I am calling you liars. And I think liars are cowards, who can't find the courage to engage in honest, meaningful civil debate.

Sad.

To the rest of my fellow democrats, who are supporting the good Senator from New York, but who are not lying, and are engaging in civil discussion -- god bless you, and I'll see you in the general, when the real battle begins!! Democrat in the White House in 08!

[DJ13]

1. "Yes. I am calling you liars."

Thank you!
:thumbsup:

[Bread and Circus]

2. I hear you man. But a lot of people just don't want to hear.

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. You figured that people thought that he didn't have a report written up?

Everybody has a report written up, so what?

[Political Heretic]

7. So its time to start having honest discussion.

:shrug:

[rodeodance]

18. you might remind your Leader as he has been endlessing bashing Clinton last few weeks!!

[grizmaster]

4. How about a couple of pages of concrete actual past accomplishments

to base trusting that Obama is capable of getting his intentions to bloom into reality?

[Political Heretic]

8. Also there.

[grizmaster]

19. All I see are his promises, not any concrete accomplishments

Care to point out what I missed?

[Political Heretic]

20. No. Because they are right there. His record is a section under every issue.

[Coexist]

34. Judge him by his laws.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FLDem5/192

[BlackVelvet04]

5. So you can link to a website....

woo hoo. The point is none of you can articulate it yourself.

[Political Heretic]

9. Really? Try here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[liberaltrucker]

11. Seconded

Linkage, please? I'm on you side.

On edit, I stand corrected. Thanks.

:toast:

[Capn Sunshine]

16. And you can

right.

[Recursion]

22. Oh for F***'s sake...

I've done it in about a dozen threads in the past 3 days. Each time I was responding to someone who said "but he doesn't have any substantive policy proposals". I list the 8 or 10 that matter most to me. Just earlier tonight I was getting so ticked I put in about 50 or so over the course of four posts. Anyways, each time, the critic I was responding to hasn't said a damn thing. Not "oh, well here's what I don't like about these points" or "I don't think those are realistic plans" or even "Thanks, I'm glad you pointed this out; I hadn't known Obama was for those" (well, that latter happened once a few weeks ago, gratifyingly). Nope, just an ignoble silence...

[Political Heretic]

29. Note that when you do they are silent. Note my thread I linked where I did...

...has next to no response.

That's because it screws up the current talking point, leaving nothing.

[Coexist]

35. I've tried - read this

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/FLDem5/192

[kerrygoddess]

6. Um... It's about his speaking style

It's about his speaking style, the lack of substance in his speeches, and his debate style in my opinion, that leaves people feeling as though he's "about fluffy talk and no policy." We all know he has plans and issue statements and much has been made about the fact that their positions (HRC and Obama) are very similar. What people are talking about though is that he speaks using a lot of rhetoric and plaitudes and a lot of talk about change, hope and creating a movement but he doesn't give details about what he will do if he is president.

The general public isn't going to go mulling around on his website downloading PDF policy papers. They sure didn't do it when Kerry - Edwards had their 263 page Our Plan For America on JohnKerry.com. People were constantly saying Kerry didn't have a policy plan but it was right there under their noses. Even you apparently missed it.

[Political Heretic]

12. Kerry - Edwards had a democratic convention platform for the general election.

John Kerry didn't have that in the primaries.

Having been to an Obama speech in person in my hometown, my experiences don't match up to your description.

In another thread I put things into my own words, and a lot of it was from speeches of Obama's and things written for national publications.

I would kind of agree with you about the debates, but I feel that neither candidate is able to use the debates so far to show much substance.... I wouldn't make the mistake of conflating that into saying that Senator Clinton has no substance. In part I blame the structure of the debates. The CNN debates have regularly left me with a sick feeling. The moderation of the debates lead them to be more infotainment than substantive, in my opinion.

[niceypoo]

10. So when does he start talking about it?

And when do you stop attacking people and begin talking about policy?

Oh, and when does your, 'Unity' and 'Hope' kick in? Is there any 'Unity' and 'Hope' in your name calling?

[Political Heretic]

14. Name calling? Really where?

I think I was pretty clear to not lump all Clinton supporters together, to explicitly state that there was a specific target group I was addressing, and even my label of liar is not an attack, its just an observation of reality, and it was qualified, not generalized.

I talk about policy all the time. Like here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4473387&mesg_id=4473387

[Recursion]

23. Umm.... Every speech I've heard him give

He usually hits 4 to 5 of his proposals in each stump speech; I assume the ones he picks for each speech are based on where he is and who he's talking to, though I haven't particularly noticed a pattern other than a few obvious ones (veterans' issues at Legion halls, etc.)

Seriously, I have no idea why you think he doesn't talk about them in his speeches. How many of his speeches have you heard? Did you listen to the whole speech, or just the CNN/YouTube highlight reel?

[Straight Shooter]

13. Thanks a lot. Now we'll be looking at another blue line in Ms. Linklady's posts.

n/t

[ursi]

15. Americans are lazy. They don't want to read. They want to watch shit on TV.

Someone from the Obama campaign should put these things together in podcasts so these types of Americans can listen and watch on their ipods or laptops online in youtube clips. I'm not just talking about the younger generation here. I know plenty of old farts with ipods and laptops and cell phones.

[rodeodance]

17. silly. Its not the pages anyone can goggle for. You did know that didn't you?

[philly_bob]

21. I read the section on the Economy. I'd love to see the measures happen.

They're good plans, and I had a moment of deep sadness thinking of how much we've lost with eight years of Bush doing just the opposite of the right thing.

Just three points:

(1) I'm not sure where Obama's plan differs from Clinton's plan on the economic issues described on pages 10-19 of the document. I suspect 90% of it -- maybe 100% of it -- both Obama and Clinton would agree on. (Actually, that's good news.) Correct me if I'm wrong.

(2) Perhaps for this reason, I still want more debates between Clinton and Obama. I still feel I don't know Obama enough to trust him with the future of the planet.

(3) It's distasteful to me that you post your link with all that boldface liar namecalling. I know you aren't calling everyone a liar, but it's still not civil discussion. If the lie you are complaining about is that Obama's speeches are long on emotionalism and short on substance, then that's a matter of opinion. You don't call someone a liar when they have a different opinion. The 64-page campaign document you link to does not settle the matter.

And yes, Political Heretic, I'll see you in November when the real battle begins.

[Tatiana]

25. But it is a lie. People are not just saying his "speeches" are short on substance.

They are saying HE, the person, lacks substance and specific policy proposals. In any case, neither is true. He always mentions at least 5 policy proposals he advocates, depending on who his audience is.

For instance, seniors making less that $50,000 don't pay income tax. They don't even have to file. That's something that actually makes sense, as our seniors are usually on a fixed income and have to absorp the increase in costs of energy, food, prescription drugs, transportation, etc. Obama said this and received a thunderous applause in response.

[Political Heretic]

28. Agreed.

[philly_bob]

31. People say that a professor of constitutional law is short on substance?

That's crazy.

I'm flip-flopping between Clinton and Obama for my April primary. On my I'll-vote-for-Clinton days, the worst I will say about Obama is "He should have waited a little longer." On my I'll-vote-for-Obama days, the worst I will say about Clinton is "Too many Americans irrationally hate her."

And as an Edwards/Kucinich progressive, I'll worry about corporate influence on both of them.

More debates would clarify these matters, and help me overcome my feeling that I don't know Barack Obama.

[Tatiana]

33. "He should have waited a little longer" or "Why is Obama running *now*?"

I am in this race because I don’t want to see us spend the next year re-fighting the Washington battles of the 1990s. I don’t want to pit Blue America against Red America, I want to lead a United States of America. I don’t want this election to be about the past, because if it’s about the future, we all win. If this election is about whether or not to end this war, or pass universal health care, or make more college affordable, it won’t just be a Democratic victory; it will be an American victory.

That’s the victory this country needs right now. This election and this moment are too important to settle for what we already know. The time has come to reach for what we know is possible.

I am not running for this office to fulfill any long-held plans or because I believe it is somehow owed to me. I never expected to be here, and I always knew the journey would be improbable. I’ve never been on one that wasn’t.

I am running because of what Dr. King called “the fierce urgency of now.” I am running because I do believe there’s such a thing as being too late. And that hour is almost here.

I’m running because I don’t want to wake up one morning four years from now, and turn on one of those cable talk shows, and see that Washington is still stuck in the same food fight it’s been in for over a decade. I don’t want to see that more Americans lost their health care and fell into bankruptcy because we let the insurance industry spend millions to stop us for yet another year. I don’t want to see that.

http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/index.php/2007/11/03/the-fierce-urgency-of-now/

[Political Heretic]

30. Oh hey listen, the issue of whether or not the candidates policies are much different is a whole...

...other thing!

They aren't. :)

They really aren't. Which means I'm forced to consider other factors when choosing my candidate. Yes, I will see you in Novemeber!! :toast:

[Lucinda]

24. "Sixty-four pages of clear, concrete-specific, detailed plans for the White House"...Not so much.

I urge everyone to take a looks at it for themselves.

[Political Heretic]

27. Yes, so much.

In fact, it parallels in scope and detail what is presented by the Clinton Campaign.

[Indenturedebtor]

26. Here here!

I'm pretty fed up with it as well.

I linked a simple list of ethics/transparency policy differences from another website which I pointed out was decidedly slanted for Obama and asked the Clinton community at large to convince me that she had a better ethics/transparency record and plan, and I was flamed like crazy, called "son" and an idiot within 2 minutes. Later I was told that I had been "owned" :rofl:

[Poll_Blind]

32. k&r!n/t

PB

[blm]

36. Clintons have a lengthy record of protecting the Bushes and none of her supporters have

any interest in demanding THOSE details, do they?


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

Scrape your bank accounts for her while Bushes AND the Clintons have been profiting by the MILLIONS for years from the very folks that were protected by the deep-sixing of IranContra and BCCIs outstanding matters.

Have Dubai royals ever funneled millions into YOUR income?