OK You win....Obama thinks he's the Messiah and all who follow him are brainwashed

[Armstead]

Hope is now officially a dirty word.

Enthusiasm is now an undesirable quality.

Civilty is a weakness.

Optimism is immature.

Positive engagement is a fault.

Four legs good. Two legs bad.

[Trajan]

1. DU makes people crazy .....

QED ...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

56. Does DU make people crazy?

Or does crazy make people DU?

[IndieLeft]

60. I think crazy people on DU make me go nuts!

[Dr Fate]

2. If those things mean being wrong, then I dont wanna be right!

;)

[Armstead]

6. Yer one of them damn optimists, huh?

Back to the re-education camp for you.

[journalist3072]

3. Hope isn't a dirty word...IF you tell me what I'm supposed to be hoping for.

And thereinlies the problem with Barack Obama.

What, exactly, am I supposed to be hoping for?

"Civility is a weakness?" What does Obama know about civility? Do you think his campaign was being civil, when it called Hillary Clinton "Senator Punjab." Do you think his campaign was being civil, when one of Obama's surrogates said Obama doesn't go on tv to have "crying fits" and that he didn't "wait until he was 60 to find his voice."

Do you think Obama was being civil when he said Hillary Clinton "was always the default candidate, becaue she's Hillary Clinton and not Hillary Rodham."

[Armstead]

9. "What am I hoping for?" That's a valid question to ask of any candidate

I'm not suggesting that everyone should agree with or support Obama.

But what is offensive is the endless repetition of the dismissive claim that just because he does inspire hope, that's a bad thing or that he is any more egotistical than any other politician.

As for any lapses in civility -- I'd say he has no monopoly on that score.

[journalist3072]

16. My response to you is: hope alone doesn't get the job done

Am I supposed to just "hope" that Obama is on the right side of the issues that are important to me? Again, what exactly am I supposed to be hoping for?

One of the reasons I support Sen. Clinton, is because she is not afraid to put her policy proposals out there. She gives you the details.

I feel as though I have a really good sense of where she wants to take this country.

- I know that she wants to open up the Congressional health care plan to the rest of the country, so that people will have access to all of the options under the Congressional health care plan. For example, what Sen. Clinton has said, for example, is that the type of health care that a single 30-year old person needs, is not necessarily the same type of health care that a 65-year old needs. So people would have options.

- I know that she wants to start withdrawing troops from Iraq within the first six months of her presidency, and she believes they can withdraw a brigade a month.

- I know that if she's elected, she says she will ask Congress to send her the stem cell legislation that they approved, but Bush vetoed.


So I have a very good sense of where she wants to take this country. I don't have that with Obama.

[Armstead]

22. If you look on his website....

You'll find long lists and PDF files with specific proposals on many subjects/

I'll be honest with you. I'm not wildly enthusiastic about Obama. Kucinich and Edwards were more my preference, because I believe they had a real vision and concrete proposals toi lead America in a more progressive and liberal direction.

And I have occasionally wondered "Where's the Beef?" in Obama's speeches myself.

However, I really object to those who mischaracterize him as an empty shell, and his followers as brainless followers, simply because Obama is better at the inspirational side of politics than most candidates.

I am absolutely certain that if Hillary could somehow get a shot of Obama's speechifying power, she'd take it in a New York Minute.

[BlackVelvet04]

27. No,no, no, no....

just telling people to go to the website don't get it. That's part of the problem...his supporters can't explain any of his policy proposals, all they can tell anyone is hope, change, unity, etc.

[Armstead]

30. Why bother to retype what he has written down, when it's readily accessible?

I doubt Hillary supporters can sum up most of her actual policies and goals beyond the cliches eitehr.

And personally I am in my 50's and rather cynical,and would rather see this campaign being run on an Edwards, Wellstone, Bernie Sanders model of clear progressive principles and proposals. BUT I also believe politics can use an injection of optimism, enthusiasm and hope.

[BlackVelvet04]

32. Why...

because it sounds like you guys don't have a clue about his policies.

[Armstead]

36. Please sum up in about 50 words or so Hillary's specific policies in depth

Especially where she differs from Obama in a broad sense.

I'll save you some time. She wants healthcare mandates. He wants it to be optional for adults.

[BlackVelvet04]

40. See.....there it is again....

switching it around and putting the onus on us. I spent hours the other night answering questions about Hillary's health care proposals and I'm not wasting time answering questions when it is nothing but an exercise in futility.

[Armstead]

48. Maybe many Obama supporters feel; the same way.

And I wasn't talking about going into a particular policy in depth (although that is a worthy exercise).

Obama has a health plan too. You may not like it, but claiming he doesn't have one is disingenuous.

Same with most of his policies.

To be honest, I get a little impatient with Hillary supporters to refuse to even investigate the underpinnings of the economic philosophy that she, her husband and the DLC have been pushing for years. Those who understand it and still support her are free to do so. But it is the height of shallowness to just accept at face value just taking at face value her trendy populism of the moment, and see only the surface of the flimsy prosperity bubble of the 90's, or Hillary's claims that she will stand up to the same corporations and financiers who are her major backers.

[BlackVelvet04]

52. I didn't say he didn't have one but not one of the obama supporters

could discuss it with me.

As I said somewhere else, I don't support Hillary because I think she has no flaws, I support her in spite of them. I am NOT willing to risk everything I've worked for and my future on a rookie senator who is unvetted and has a list of no votes as long as my arm. His policies are not superior to Hillary's....he just gives good speeches. I'm not impressed by good speeches.

[Armstead]

53. I can't disagree witn you on your beliefs

Personally, I can't overlook Hillary's flaws because they are so ingrained and entwined with what I believe is the reason for our nation's current problems. And Obama is only slightly less of a rookie Senator than Clinton.

But we all see things in our own way. If after reading his website :) you don;t like his proposals, that's fine.

However, to get back to the point of my OP, I think it is unfair to characterize all of Obama's supporters as simple minded cultists, or to criticize Obama for being a damn good politician, in terms of being able to inspire enthusiasm.

[journalist3072]

49. Exactly! And what are people who don't have a home computer, or can't afford to pay

$2 a minute to get online at an internet cafe, supposed to do?

I have no problem with candidates referring people to their website. I think's totally appropriate.

But that should not obsolve candidates from discussing their proposals in person and in depth.

The website should not be an excuse for a candidate not discussing their proposals.

[Armstead]

51. Um, if someone is on DU, I assume they have a computer and Internet

I'm not saying canddiates should only answer with that.

The point I was responding to is why suppoters of a candidate don't give the details here.

[journalist3072]

58. I'm not talking about DUers...obviously they have computers. I'm talking about other citizens out

there. My main concern is the folks out there who can't afford a computer, and can't afford to go to an internet cafe and pay X amount of dollars per minute, to get online.

Those are the folks I'm talking about.

[Tatiana]

46. He is the only candidate addressing the issue of low-income citizens WITH specific proposals.

• Invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce.
  
  
• Create a Green Jobs Corps to directly engage disadvantaged youth in energy efficiency opportunities to strengthen their communities, while also providing them with practical skills in this important high-growth career field.
  
  
• Double the federal Jobs Access and Reverse Commute program to ensure that additional federal public transportation dollars flow to the highest-need communities and that urban planning initiatives take this aspect of transportation policy into account.
  
  
• Give ex-offenders access to job training, substance abuse and mental health counseling, and employment opportunities. Create a prison-to-work incentive program.
  
  
• Increase the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increase the benefits available to parents who support their children through child support payments, increase benefits for families with three or more children, and reduce the EITC marriage penalty, which hurts low-income families.
  
  
• Raise the minimum wage and index it to inflation to make sure that full-time workers can earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs such as food, transportation, and housing.
  
  
• All low and middle-income workers get a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck.
  
  
• Eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.
  
  
• Expand the Nurse-Family Partnership to all 570,000 low-income, first-time mothers each year. The Nurse-Family Partnership provides home visits by trained registered nurses to low-income expectant mothers and their families.
  
  
• Guarantee all workers seven paid sick days per year.
  
  
• Create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund to develop affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods.
  
  
• Fully fund the Community Development Block Grant program.
  
  
• Create 20 Promise Neighborhoods in areas that have high levels of poverty and crime and low levels of student academic achievement in cities across the nation. The Promise Neighborhoods will be modeled after the Harlem Children's Zone, which provides a full network of services, including early childhood education, youth violence prevention efforts and after-school activities, to an entire neighborhood from birth to college.

That is more than just hope.

[Whisp]

44. anything other than Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton

does it for me.

[Windy]

4. when you don't have momentum at your back, you have to account for the shift somehow!

So what do they do? Make up juvenile reasons instead of just facing the fact that Obama is getting his message out and its resonating

people really do want a change, not just from bush, but also from old school politicians...

disappointment can make people very ugly.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. Civility? From Obama DUers?

:rofl:

--p!

[Trajan]

11. This is instructive ...

As a Democrat who supports BOTH Obama AND Clinton, I find such one-sided sniping completely false and egotistical ...

It is quite obvious to most everyone that BOTH sides have nutcases who will bend over backwards to cast aspersions against their imagined 'opponents' ..... Tossing shit to 'support the candidate' they apparently prefer ....

Yeah ... right ....

[magatte]

15. Civilty from Obama.

You, oh so civil, forumer.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. Civil? Moi?

:rofl:

--p!

[Armstead]

50. At least you have a sense of humor

[Nitrogenica]

7. Hope is driven by hard work.

Get to it!

[KoKo]

8. His rhetoric is a little extreme. Sometimes he reminds me of Elmer Gantry...

when he isn't MLK or JFK... but that's just me...and I'm certainly "very fringe" about this.

[Armstead]

12. Not extreme...He's just good at what all politicians try to do

Show me a politician who would not love to rouse the crowds like Obama can, and I'll show you a politician who isn't a politician.

The only reason it is more noticable in Obnama is the fact that he's better at it.

[KoKo]

24. Actually, Bill Clinton did a great job of it. And maybe if Mario Cuomo had been different color

and was still young today...he could have been vying with Hillary..

How soon we forget the thundering rhetoric of Bill Clinton and those who went before... But, I do understand that after the DARK YEARS of Bush/Cheney...there's a group of folks who long for HOPE and CHANGE. Who are so tired...but maybe not as tired as some of us who've been on this board for so long fighting...like you Armstead...

[thevoiceofreason]

10. I'm more equal than you are.

[Cha]

13. Oh that's just according to

the hilarys and :wtf: do they know.

[The_Casual_Observer]

14. Obama made "Hope" a dirty word by cynically exploiting it as a cheap slogan

Because, as he saw it, you can't argue against hope! I think Oprah steered him into that iceberg.

[journalist3072]

17. Exactly!! eom

[Armstead]

18. And most politicians don't do the same?

My God, every political campaign or government program has a slogan with positive words in it.

And this is worse how?

[The_Casual_Observer]

21. According to you, Obama isn't "most politicians". Anyway, "most politicians".

are savvy enough to know not to try the direct "Hope" thing, except when they were
on the debate team in High School.

[Armstead]

23. I assume you've forgotten The Man from Hope

[ProgressIn2008]

38. Agreed with Cas Observer - isn't your argument that Obama is not "most politicians"?

He's newer and nobler and more exciting than the rest of the sad old bunch, nothing this nation has seen this JFK/MLK/insert name here? This is an argument I don't get -- it's a variation on the "Hillary did it tooooo!" thing. Why on earth would you compare Obama to the ordinary non-tranformationalists you disdain, as if there can be a point of comparison? Heck, as far as I can see, a great many Obama fans have a deep personal antipathy towards HRC. Why on earth would you compare *Obama* to the lying, calculating, phony, corrupt, old, desparate Hillary Clinton? That argument doesn't make sense.

[Armstead]

42. My argument is that Obama and his supporters are getting a bum rap

I'm not wildly enthusiastic about Obama. I think he's a really good politician, who has managed to hit a deep chord in a lot of people who are looking for a change from the status quo.In that sense he is a cut above most candidates, even if only because he is better at it.

Frankly, I preferred Edwards and ideally prefer clear politicians like Bernie Sanders, Wellstone and other no-bullshit progressives over either Obama or Hillary.

And to be honest, a major reason I support Obama is because he's not a Clinton.

But I do believe we need an injection of the hope and enthusiasm and -- yes -- optimism that Obama is inspiring.

And I believe it is unfair and short-sighted of those who criticize and misrepresent him for being able to elicit that.

[BlackVelvet04]

28. and his speeches sound like

something Oprah would spout off on her show. She says some of the dumbest shit that people think is profound. She's a show person and that's how Obama comes across...as a show person.

[Armstead]

33. And Hillary's don't?

All mass politics and speechifying is shallow, unfortunately.

Obama is just better at it than most.

[ProgressIn2008]

39. Okay, actually, this makes more sense to me

If your argument is "Obama is one more shallow speechifying politician in a mass culture, he's just better at the speechifying," I can't argue with that.

[The_Casual_Observer]

37. Oprah has made millions selling hope to people who are sitting at

home with nothing to do at 2:00 in the afternoon.

[BlackVelvet04]

41. Shame it hasn't inspired them to change their lives so that they aren't

sitting at home with nothing to do at 2:00 in the afternoon.

[The_Casual_Observer]

43. They have hope, what else do they need? Anyway, if they did something

they wouldn't be watching that show, bad for the ratings.

[BlackVelvet04]

47. I'd be hoping to have something better to watch than

that tripe.

[Armstead]

45. Isn't that kind of sexist....and elitist?

A lot of "those people sitting at home" are mothers. Or peopel who work the night shift. Or people who might be temporarily unemployed through no fault of their own. Ort people who are self-employed and have the TV on in the background. Or people who are retired after a life of accomplishments.

[Mr.Fitzgibbons]

63. YES EXACTLY n/t

[Double T]

20. We're NOT looking for a religious savior, we're looking for an exemplary experienced leader.

HRC is the ONE!

[KoKo]

25. Her "experience" and ability to "be President from Day One" is a powerful , reasoned

message...........

But.. she doesn't have the ability that her hubby Bill or Obama had...to express HOPE...

[Double T]

55. The US is beyond HOPE. ACTION is required.........

and the BONUS is WJC will there for guidance and support.

[Armstead]

26. I think you missed my point

You are entitled to believe in your heart that Hillary is "an exemplary experienced leader."

However, engaging in such enthusiasm about one candidate while criticizing the enthuisiasm of supporters of other candidates is a bit hypocritical.

I don';t think Obama has ever claimed to be a "religious savior." He's a politician.

[Double T]

57. Politicians make decisions that are Yay or Nay; NOT 'present'.

.....more than 130 times says it ALL!

[rodeodance]

54. ~ALL FIRED-UP FOR THE LADY~~YES SHE CAN, YES WE CAN~

[TexasObserver]

29. must ... follow ... his ... holiness ... Obama ...

Cult, my ass!! Let's make it a religion!!

501(c)(3)

Who's with me?!!

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. religion sucks and specifically organized religion sucks.

[niceypoo]

31. Wherever did you get such an idea?

[Bread and Circus]

34. Animal Farm. One of the greast political books ever. Thanks Armstead.

[Political Heretic]

35. The Orwellian nature of some candidate supporters here at DU is really scary.

Down is up.

Left is right.

[IndieLeft]

59. Well, if that's true, I'm happy to have a clean mind.

I am feeling spiritual for the fist time in a decade.

[Iceburg]

61. Is this hope or ....

From the Village Voice.

"Once in a while, Obama makes a passing reference to our diminishing individual liberties, but hardly ever in his stump speeches. At an early-morning rally the day of the New Hampshire vote, he told some 300 students at the Dartmouth College gym: "My job this morning is to be so persuasive . . . that a light will shine through that window, a beam of light will come down upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will suddenly realize that you must go to the polls and vote for Barack."

or something else? It does have a messianic feel to it.

[Armstead]

64. a bit of hyperbole, but so what?

All politicians use it.