Why is it a bad idea to nominate a charismatic leader?

[sfam]

Truly, I don't get it. OK, fine, we love the swift-boat slime label of calling Obama supporters a "cult." Disregarding the issue of swiftboating our own candidates, why do you think its such a bad idea to elect someone who has the capability of galvanizing public support behind the things we want to do? Do you really believe we'll get real change on a range of issues (health care, the environment, ending the war, etc.) without galvanizing public support? Well do ya?

Something tells me that this is just another thing I don't understand...similar to the recent argument that hope is a bad thing.

Hope and charismatic leaders - the BANE of the democratic party.

Yeah, that makes sense...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. The Democrats have a long-standing tradition of nominating wonkish bores.

They don't know what to do with somebody who actually doesn't put you to sleep.

[REDFISHBLUEFISH]

66. Dubya was charismatic in a down home way.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

67. Charismatic? Genial, maybe, in a dimwitted way. But not charismatic.

[rug]

2. Because hope turns to cynicism rapidly.

[billbuckhead]

3. Belief is the enemy of truth

I want dull policy wonk bureaucrats working together and don't trust preacher types.

[Sapphocrat]

4. I'd answer you...

...but you've obviously got me on ignore.

[NMMNG]

22. S/he doesn't want to hear it anyway

So why bother?

[Sapphocrat]

30. True.

It's like trying to get through to the Vancome Lady. LALALALALALALALALA...!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

5. being "charismatic is not enough....lots of bad people throughout history were charismatic

not saying Obama is bad.....he is a wonderful man

and it should not be used it as a litmus test

[sfam]

7. Charisma by itself isn't enough, but do you honestly thing that a policy wonk that...

cannot galvanize support from the country will get anything meaningful done? Can you honestly say that our Country isn't in dire straights - that it doesn't really need transformative change? Can you honestly say that another 4-8 years of incremental bites is gonna make the difference?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

15. bush did it ...got his things done and he has zero charisma and don't put words in my mouth...

[sfam]

24. Bush did it by fear mongering. Is this Hillary's strategy? If not, what?

Truly, I'm interested to understand how she gets over the gridlock? I have yet to hear anything from her or her supporters that address this.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

20. they might also screw alot of interns?

I'm guessing, Bill was charismatic, and he couldn't keep his pants zipped when he
was governor or president.

[Dogmudgeon]

6. Ask the Germans

Too much of a Good Thing (like zeal) is not a Better Thing.

--p!

[sfam]

10. Ah yes...ALL charismatic leaders throughout history are JUST like Hitler...even Churchill...

Please. Do you really believe this, or is this just another asinine talking point? All charismatic leaders will most likely end up just like Hitler???

[Dogmudgeon]

25. All? No. But that wasn't your question

You wanted to know why it was a bad idea to choose a charismatic leader.

My point was that the Germans voted for Hitler based on his feel-good charisma, and the results were horrible.

"Just like Hitler" is YOUR spin.

But don't take Hitler as an example. There are at least a dozen examples of charismatic leaders who are well-known to draw from. And all of them are scorned and feared except for Churchill, FDR, and JFK -- NONE of whom held mass rallies with hundreds of people chanting slogans.

This is a very new phenomenon, and Barack Obama Superstar has only been running for a month or so. It is not too late to stop the practice of deifying Obama. There is enough substance to the man that messianic fervor is not required to assure his leadership.

I know how good it feels. I know it probably feels like falling in love ... but this is politics. And those two things mix like gasoline and fire.

--p!

[goodgd_yall]

35. Nice post.

But I wouldn't even say FDR or CHurchill were charismatic. JFK...maybe. Hitler, definitely. Huey Long too?

[Dogmudgeon]

44. Huey ... yes

There are actually a number of charismatic good guys. But for every one I come up with, I find five ratbastards.

I am not an Obama hater; I like to fight and I like to defend Hillary. But Obama is having his moment in the wilderness with the Devil. (That's a reference to a bible story where the Devil offered Jesus total worldly power). He's got a good reputation, but the fact that he has reached the precipice is frightening in itself. We all must trust Barack Obama to make the right decision.

--p!

[sfam]

42. So what happens if I ask americans? And Hitler won using Browncoat violence as much as

Charisma. He did not run a high-minded campaign. He brutalized the competition and demonized segments of society. Put simply he took charge in an environment where there was none. His rise to power did not simply come by his Charismatic speeches.

But again, are you honestly saying that political speeches don't have people chanting slogans? That this is a new phenomena???? That nobody in American politics have done this before? You haven't had the pleasure of seeing a Jesse Jackson speech in the 80s by any chance, did you?

And I know this point falls on deaf ears, but a thousand+ people shouting "Yes We Can" in unison are not deifying Barack - they are personally stepping up to take their country back. This is a commitment that when he is elected, they will be right there pressuring congress for policies to get passed and things to get done. This is really not a bad thing. In fact, its better than sending an "I will do this" person to go to Washington and engage in yet another 4 years of gridlock fist fighting...

[goodgd_yall]

31. Churchill charismatic?

That's the first time I've heard that. Maybe Huey Long.

[Big Blue Marble]

36. Are you familiar with WWII history or not?

If not you might want study a little before you snark at me.

He inspired his country at their truly darkest hours to fight what at the time seemed hopeless to many
of his countrymen and women. He inspired with speeches and with his charisma. He lead
his country to victory as did FDR here.


Read a little; it helps.

[goodgd_yall]

40. Incredibly condescending---can't take a challenge, can you?

I would say Churchill was inspiring, but that's different from charismatic.

[Big Blue Marble]

49. This may help:

"The effect of Churchill's appointment to the supreme office he had always coveted was electrifying. By sheer force of personality, transmitted to the British Parliament and to the people through radio broadcasts, he turned fear into fortitude. By telling the truth he actually made things seem better, not worse. As Harold Nicolson shrewdly noted, the same words in Neville Chamberlain's mouth would have left his audience in a mood of dejection; in Churchill's they sounded a note of hope and defiance. There is no question that this was one of the rare moments in history when the presence of a single man altered what was, and was not, possible.

The third component of Churchill's charisma was that for which he is most remembered: the passion and the dignity of his rhetoric. Martin Gilbert cites many of his speeches, familiar and unfamiliar, at pleasing length and in full metaphorical ripeness. The thickness of this documentation makes it possible to see just how the great orations were put together from the capacious filing cabinet of his literary memory and the emotional impetus of the moment. The notion of anything so intellectually supine as a speech writer, let alone a bank of them, would have appalled Churchill, not only because his feeling for the cadences and the inflections of the language was so fine, but because during the war rhetoric was not manipulated for personal promotion. It is apparent that Churchill's speech as broke the crust of the British class system and brought together those divided by accent, manners, education and fortune. He played on his oratory like some mighty brass instrument, muting and swelling as occasion demanded. When he addressed the French--"Francais, c'est mol , Churchill qui vous parle"--he conscripted the ghost of Napoleon exhorting his troops against the Prussians, but was tactful enough not to mention that the occasion was Waterloo. At least one of his listeners thought, "every word was like a transfusion of drops of blood."

WINSTON S. CHURCHILL, Volume VI, FINEST HOUR
by Martin Gilbert
(London, Heinemann; Boston: Houghton-Mifflin; Toronto: Stoddard, 1983)

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageID=496

[goodgd_yall]

86. So be it

It sounds to me like extraordinary oratory skills and the ability to inspire---qualities that Obama has. But I think of charisma as a way of winning a person over through strength of character or charm---which I also think Obama possesses. I'm well aware of Churchill's role in inspiring the British people during WWII, but I have never connected it to the quality of charisma.

[Big Blue Marble]

102. I think charisma is one of those words that is a little hard to grok.

I don't think that we are in that much disagreement on the meaning of charisma.

One certainly could have great oratory skills and not have charisma. Yet great oratory
skills are often grounded in strength of personality. Words alone do not move as much.

It is the difference between reading a speech and hearing it delivered. The power of the voice
communicates so much. It has been said that 95% of what we communicate comes through
our body language and intonations of voice. If the person has that remarkable ability to
communicate on all these levels then they become a powerful speaker.

When one has the power to move people with words and has great ability to move
people with their personality, s/he has great influence indeed. Of course that
influence can be used for good or bad.

It was both that gave Churchill the ability to save Great Britain and Kennedy
the ability to revitalize our nation. You may disagree but from my own study of
FDR, I think he too saved a nation with the force of personality as well
as words.

I appreciate your openness in discussing this and apologize if I sounded condescending.

[kurth]

12. Shit. Ask the deluded Bush fans

8 years of sheer hell and destruction.

[sfam]

19. Bush is Charismatic???? Really? I thought he was a guy we wanted to have a beer with...

You're really losing me here...I think you're getting confused with your overlapping attack points. If I was asking why you see him as an empty suit, perhaps this would be a good comeback, but we're talking about charisma here.

[Straight Shooter]

34. Charisma was Rove's talking point

Rove, recalling his first meeting with George W. Bush, said, "I can literally remember what he was wearing: an Air National Guard flight jacket, cowboy boots, bulletins, complete with the--in Texas you see it a lot--one of the back pockets will have a circle worn in the pocket from where you carry your tin of snuff, your tin of tobacco. He was exuding more charisma than any one individual should be allowed to have."

Charisma is highly overrated. Those who have it, tend to abuse it when they are given positions of power.

[goodgd_yall]

38. I guess in his younger days n/t

[sfam]

43. Surely you aren't equating Rove's talking points with reality are you? Bush is...

Charismatic? You really believe this? Like, really?

[Straight Shooter]

53. I refer to it as an example of hyping charisma. n/t

[sfam]

56. So you are saying Obama does not have charisma???? If not, I'm confused...

He is creating a massive cult without being charismatic???? That his charismatic traits are being hyped while at the same time a massively dangerous cult is forming around him?

Incongruent talking points I think...

[Straight Shooter]

77. I'm saying charisma is hyped as a trait. It's overrated.

I don't know if Barack has charisma. I never met him. He has a nice voice.

[sfam]

79. So the only people you know have charisma are those you've met? OK...nt

[Straight Shooter]

101. Okay, Mr. Cross-Examiner, you want my opinion?

I have heard that Barack has charisma for certain people. I have heard that there are people who remain unimpressed by him.

Best evidence is firsthand evidence. The rest is hearsay.

[Big Blue Marble]

55. Bush would like to think he has charisma.

The only time Bush had the support of over one half of the country is when we were hit by
terrorists and everyone was afraid. Otherwise he was a dud. He may have had charisma for Rove,
but he did nothing to inspire over half of the country.

[Straight Shooter]

107. I just watched the movie Why Do We Fight a couple nights ago.

It featured the scene of bush on the WTC rubbish, with his bullhorn.

This was his so-called heroic moment? I could not effing believe that anyone fell for that scripted tripe. People shouting "USA! USA! USA!" while standing on the scattered, pulverized remains of the dead.

bush was a totally manufactured candidate, and the right wing fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Good point.

--p!

[JVS]

80. The opposition to Hitler was nominating some of the lamest ass party tools ever.

[journalist3072]

8. Perhaps because we need substance over style. There was an article yesterday

which talked about how the people volunteering for Obama, have been training NOT to talk about policy. They are instructed to just share the warm-and-fuzzy stories of how they came to decide to support Obama....but no policy discussion allowed!

You don't find that troubling?

[sfam]

14. Would be troubling if true...but if you're talking about getting instant volunteers...

They get a little sheet to ask people do phone calls, and have an "If-then" style thing. Are you saying that this is in any way unusual?

Or are you actually saying that Obama doesn't want his people to state his approach to opposing the war from the beginning, the details of Obama's health care approach, etc? If so, you don't really believe this, do you? Sure - soliciting someone for instant phone bank duty will NOT involve detailed training, but so what?

This is just yet another empty suit attack. Not true, but I suppose its as good a line as any. Just because Obama is saying there is something besides issues which needs to be addressed, he's called an empty suit...OK...

[journalist3072]

23. You obviously didn't see this thread here on DU yesterday...Please go here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4445389

[sfam]

28. But of course...this HAS to be true right? Obama can't stand his people talking about issues...

Incidentally, one of the posters who has worked on the campaign posted this (#72):

"No one told me to do any of those things. There was nothing about the activities we did for Barack in NV or AZ that was any different from any I've done on any campaign, ever. Phonebanking with a scripted talking points, canvassing and handing out lit, going to rallies. The usual boring stuff. No seances, no group confessions, no come-to-Jesus of any kind. Yes, I was encouraged to talk about why I supported Obama. As I've been for every other campaign I've ever worked on.

The article smells like bullshit. In any campaign, you can cherrypick a few examples of overzealous supporters and suggest that they represent the norm."

I'll find this out personally this Saturday, as the campaign is now in VA. But truly, if this is all you are hanging your hat on, I'd say your position is fairly weak here.

[journalist3072]

29. I just love Obama apologists..eom

[BlackVelvet04]

54. Every time I ask an O supporter about a policy

they say go to his website.

[hiaasenrocks]

9. Because talk is cheap.

Without substance (and, yes, I do believe Obama is severely lacking in substance) the talk means nothing. We may as well nominate a motivational speaker like Tony Robbins or whatever that dude's name is.

I understand that most Obama supporters will never see their movement as a "cult of personality" (even though a few are recognizing it, as was posted here earlier) but that's exactly what it is. And the problem with it is that sooner or later that fascination will wear off, right about the time when the real work needs to be done and it will become obvious that elevating a "community organizer" to the most powerful gov't position was an extreme leap of faith.

Before anyone offers a rebuttal about how bad Hillary would be, don't bother; I know that already.

These two candidates are disappointing to me.

[readmoreoften]

11. Yes, let's cut to the chase and elect Tony Robbins.

At least he writes his own speeches.

[sfam]

Barack = Tony Robbins...um, yeah...

They never end...He just HAS to be an empty suit if he talks about something other than issues as being important, right? OK, whatever. He has no policy issues...he just tries to get people to chant. Good luck on selling that one.

[Big Blue Marble]

13. What do you think FDR and JFK were?

They were beloved by their voters. Even though most us here cannot stand him, Reagan too was beloved.

And remember Churchill. He was charismatic. Please avoid being defensive. This cult crap is a Clinton
talking point. That is why it is being spread here and elsewhere.

All great leaders have charisma. That is fact. They inspire That is how you move people to make change.

Clinton does not have any charisma. She is a policy wonk. That is it.
Hillary supporters here and elsewhere are actually the real cultists. They want the candidate that only has
insular appeal within the party who does not have the ability to reach out to independents and Republicans.

I have seen them here say over and over that they do want independents and Republicans helping to
select their candidate. Who then are the real cultists?

[sfam]

16. They were just like Hitler, of course! God forbid we elect yet another charismatic Dem...

Look how poorly that worked with FDR and JFK...

[goodgd_yall]

33. You're getting "popular" mixed up with "charismatic" n/t

[sfam]

37. So you're saying JFK was not charismatic? FDR was not? nt

Charisma certainly leads to popularity. Other things do as well. But these two are not charismatic?

[goodgd_yall]

41. Yes, I am saying.

[sfam]

46. Wow...OK...end of discussion then. Not sure what to say about that...

I would point out that your opinion varies with the vast majority, but perhaps you are aware of this already.

[Big Blue Marble]

51. I lived through the Kennedy years.

That is how I learned the meaning of charismatic. That is how he was described at the time.
Over and over again the press talked about JFK's charisma.

Charisma is more than popular; you are right. And JFK had it.

[goodgd_yall]

87. All right---I can cave in on JFK

He was a special person in his personality and style (I was a child when he was President, but I remember how dear he was to many people. It didn't have to do with policy.The fact that pictures of Kennedy after his assassination sold like crazy---and placed in reverentially in the home, like an altar shows something else was at work).

Because a leader is capable of motivating people doesn't necessarily mean that it is charisma at work though, and that's where I would differ on FDR.

[sfam]

90. I wish you could talk to my Grandmother...she would change your mind about FDR...nt

[NastyRiffraff]

17. There's nothing wrong with it, if

There's substance, too. Charisma is a part of likeability, and that was the "litmus test" some idiots used to vote for Bush ("I'd rather have a beer with him!"). I need to hear a LOT more from Obama as far as explaining his policy positions.

There IS a time and place for "firing up the troops." But every speech? I think this is why Obama is merely mediocre in debates.

[sfam]

21. Wanting to have a beer with someone is the same as a charismatic leader???

I'm sorry - you all are really losing me here. I just don't see Churchill or Kennedy as someone I want to have a beer with.

And perhaps you haven't been watching, Obama is doing very well in debates now.

And the time for "firing up the troops" will be when we want the country to swarm in on congress demanding that we TRULY address health care, or actually end the war, or really do something about the energy independence. Policy wonk that all you want...unless you can galvanize massive support, you WILL be met with a lack of a 60 vote majority in the Senate. Welcome to 4-8 more years of gridlock, Ms. Clinton...

[Recursion]

59. This may sound snarky, but I'm being honest

Do you simply not hear the concrete and substantive plans he outlines in every speech? Like making FICA levies creditable, making $4000 of tuition payments per year creditable in return for two years of national or community service, forbidding executive-branch lobbying by former employees, publishing a database of all contracts and their bidding processes, investing in green industry, renewable energy, and organic agriculture, investing in rural infrastructure...

He really does talk about all those things in his speeches. I'm not just making this up. Has he so turned you off at that point that you don't hear it? :shrug: I'm not trying to be snarky, I just literally don't understand how people get the idea that his speeches are all fluff. Do you just listen to the snippets they play on the news?

[sfam]

65. Wait...you didn't tell him to go look at the site...this has never happened before...

according to Hillary supporters here...You must not really be an Obama supporter...

[Whisp]

18. The Other Superpower is very dangerous

to the Powers that Be.
can't go shaking up the system that has worked so well for so few.

[Tarc]

27. Charisma isn't bad, unless it is the ONLY attribute they offer

[sfam]

32. Good thing that's not the case here. :)

Ridiculous attacks notwithstanding of course. The first black president of the Harvard Law review is in actuality an empty suit...OK...

Transparent campaign, significant reduction in special interests in the process, significant increase in the American public in the process, strident long-standing opposition to the Iraq war, change in the tone of foreign policy in engaging in dialogue with our enemies, realistic plan for health care, plan for energy independence, etc.

You may not agree with all the positions, but there is clearly more here than just Charisma. This is why he's racked up so many newspaper endorsements, for instance.

[nonconformist]

39. Ok, here's what you're missing.

People that don't support Obama aren't doing so because they're anti-charisma, or anti-hope. And charisma and hope isn't why his supporters have been accused of acting like a cult.

BTW, it's only swiftboating if the allegations have absolutely no merit.

They've been accused of acting cult-like because so many of them are uninformed. So many are just falling in lockstep, because it seems it's the hip, cool and fashionable thing to do. At the rallies, they do a lot of chanting. Obama's speeches are mostly fluff and full of platitudes. His campaign has told phone bank callers to talk about their own personal "conversion" stories, and to not discuss the issues. We're told time and again that it's all about Obama, not the issues. That he is the one and only man that can change the world. He's telling the press that Hillary won't get his voters, but he'll get hers. It's the crying. It's the "your hand touched Obama's, ooooh please touch mine" BAM! It's the rabidness. It's the belief that he does no wrong.

And the reasons people don't support him isn't because he's charismatic and preaches about hope. It's in spite of it. It's because he's far too inexperienced, and we don't need another president learning on the job. It's because he's not very progressive. It's because he values moderate Republican voters more than big chunks of the Democratic base. It's the belief that he just can't deliver. It's because he seems pretty divisive, espeically for someone who is running on a platform of uniting a nation. It's because he's light on substance, big on style... and frankly, we've had enough of that crap. Call us cynical, but rah rah'ing based on faith got us into a great deal of this shit to begin with.

[sfam]

45. Yes, you already gave me the Hillary supporters are FULLY informed, while Obama supporters are..

all uninformed lemmings in another thread. I get it - if you support Obama, by definition you can't possibly know about the issues. We don't really need evidence, but if we did, we can pick a random idiot who supports Obama.

Good thing all of Hillary's supporters know all the issues in detail, right? We wouldn't find ANYONE at a Clinton rally who doesn't have a clue what she stands for, but likes her anyways, right? What if I made the same charge - that many Hillary supporters are clueless - that those who lost there jobs due to NAFTA and who still support her are clueless out of hand? Would this work for you?

See yesterdays thread if you want to rehash this. Your "So many Obama's supporters are uninformed so they must be a cult" part is a new spin, but just as yesterday, the underlying basis is nothing more than a lame talking point that has no basis.

[nonconformist]

48. Because there's a lot of evidence to suggest that.

I'm sure they both have clueless supporters, but generally the people that are "activists" for a campaign and are very vocal supporters are pretty damn informed. There seems to be a whole lot of very vocal Obama supporters that are not very aware of anything beyond the message of hope. That's why.

[sfam]

50. Hillary had 7.3 million votes on Tuesday...how many were fully informed?

Do you have any statistics supporting your view that Obama's supporters don't have a clue what he stands for, or is this just hot air?

Has anyone checked out how many people know anything about Hillary, other than her name, and that she is the "experience" candidate? Again, I think this is a very weak foundation you are speaking from here...

To me, this just smacks as a lame attack on those just entering the political sphere for the first time. This really comes off as an "Attack the idiot young vote - they're all clueless" type thing.

[nonconformist]

52. I note that the only part of my post that you refuted was about being informed. nt

[sfam]

60. From your post, "They've been accused of acting cult-like because so many of them are uninformed."

Yes, this is the point I refuted... this is the point that deals with the charisma thing - the point of the thread. People chanting "Yes We Can" = they are all clueless, uninformed lemmings...NOT

The follow-on paragraph was why you don't like his actual policy positions and about him personally. I could get into this, but this is really a different topic. Suffice to say that I don't think opposing torture of any kind is a conservative position, nor do I think opposing the war from start is, nor do I think I care about addressing your belief that he just "can't deliver" in this thread. This is a separate debate. We would just end up where we did yesterday, where I ask how Clinton, who completely polarizes the opposition, will get anything through the gridlock...(silence ensues). This is really a different thread topic.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

61. I note that you refuse to address the question you were asked.

You can't, that's why.

Your candidate is doing every bit as much of a snow job on the voters as Obama.

I still can't figure out what her relevant "experience" was prior to being elected to the Senate.

[nonconformist]

75. What question?

I fully ADMIT that Hillary has flaws, over and over again. I've been a harsh critic of hers. This conversation isn't about her, it's about Obama.

I chose her because she's the better of two evils, that's all.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. No, the conversation was about supporters

You maintain that Obama supporters are uninformed and implied that Clinton supporters are well-versed in the issues. I know from personal experience that is not the case. Both candidates have their fair share of informed and uninformed supporters and voters. You were asked to provide proof that Clinton supporters were more knowledgeable. You can't so you resorted to more insults.

[nonconformist]

89. Oh, I "implied" it, I see.

Well, to make it clear, I'll state that I'm sure she has a lot of dumbass voters. Okay?

Insults? You know, I really have to say... this is the kind of rabidness we're talking about. The slightest bit of criticism and there's a dogpile.

[DebJ]

57. time and again polls have shown people pull the lever for the

name they recognize

[sfam]

63. Oh no...the VAST majority of Hillary's voters know the issues just as well as she does! that's why

Hillary uses the "I" word all the time. She doesn't need their help. "Elect me and I will..." So of COURSE all her supporters need to know all the details intimately...right? Right?

And the next time I ever hear any type of slogan chanted at a political rally, I will now know that this means all those people are uninformed lemmings...learning is fun, ey?

[Auntie Bush]

93. Basically, the young don't pay as much attention to politics as older people.

Just like the young don't think about God, the hear after or religion as much as old people do. The young have busy, busy lives...especially yuppies.
It's not condescending to say this...it's just a fact of life. Soooo, I believe the older are wiser and better informed regarding politics and they think Hillary is the best candidate. I'm older and I do too.

[sfam]

97. So the young are being snowed, whereas the old are picking wisely?

I suppose this is a valid viewpoint to express, but I don't think I like the implications of this, nor do I take this viewpoint as "a fact of life" - it sounds more like an opinion to me. Why don't we just change the voting age to 60+? This way we will only get "wise" voters making our decisions...good thing older people only vote wisely...

[Auntie Bush]

105. That's not what I said or implied. ...and you know it.

Read my post again without your disagreeable glasses on and TRY to understand what I was saying. Stop putting words in my mouth!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

58. Have you ever been involved in campaigns?

Supporters run the gamut from hyper-educated political geeks to clueless starfuckers. Obama's campaign is no different. He just has more active supporters than a politician has had in a long time and the media has taken notice. They don't understand it because it hasn't been seen for so long so they have to construct a narrative that fits into their cynical little worldviews.

[nonconformist]

64. Yes, I have.

I was a volunteer in the Clinton (92), Gore (00), Dean (04) and Kerry (04) campaigns, along with a couple of more local campaigns over the years.

There seems to be an excessive amount of clueless starfuckers here. Now, I suppose that one could make the argument that it's because the Obama campaign, as a whole, is pretty light on substance. It's an awful lot of idealism, rather than pragmatism.

[sfam]

68. Wait...the valid sample for your arguments are loony posters here on DU????

Please tell me this isn't so...please???

[nonconformist]

71. Who said that? nt

[sfam]

72. You did..."There seems to be an excessive amount of clueless starfuckers HERE..."

"There seems to be an excessive amount of clueless starfuckers here. Now, I suppose that one could make the argument that it's because the Obama campaign, as a whole, is pretty light on substance."

Did "here" actually imply some place else?

[nonconformist]

83. Oh yeah, there are some here on DU.

But...

here (hîr) pronunciation
adv.

1. At or in this place: Stop here for a rest.
2. At this time; now: We'll adjourn the meeting here and discuss remaining issues after lunch.
3. At or on this point, detail, or item: Here I must disagree.
4. In the present life or condition.
5. To this place; hither: Come here, please.

As in "look at what we're dealing with, here".

Again, comprehension....

[sfam]

88. I will make sure to use the 4th definition in the list when talking to you from now on...

As the first, which fits far better, is clearly out of context...Your use of "here" is pretty odd if you actually meant this. In present life or condition? And I'm now clueless for not comprehending this in the first place?

Just a note for future reference when dealing with idiot Obama supporters like myself - if you meant Obama's supporters throughout the country, perhaps it would be easier if you said "Obama supporters throughout the country" as opposed to "here." As you already believe we're all pretty uninformed, cut us a break, ey?

[nonconformist]

91. Woah.

And you seriously don't realize yet how you come off as kind of out-there?

[sfam]

95. "Again, comprehension...." after citing definitions, and you think I come off as out there? OK...nt

[nonconformist]

106. Common for a message board, n00b. nt

[mrreowwr_kittty]

69. I think you are projecting the inadequacies of your favorite pols onto the Obama campaign

Are you telling me you don't wish that Gore or Kerry inspired the kind of excitement that Obama is? The closest to come to it was Bill Clinton. I seem to recall that Bill's speeches weren't real long on substance either. But they sure were inspiring. I also get the sense that Obama has stolen Bill's thunder. That may explain a lot of his behavior.

[nonconformist]

73. No, it's not jealousy.

He inspires you, I get it.

You act as if I'm the only person that has made these observations. Look around, read some blogs, read some newspapers. I'm not the only one, and it's not because we so desperately wish to be inspired but aren't.

[sfam]

76. If its in the blogs and MSM, it MUST be true...I get it now...

Nope, no manipulation here. My deepest apologies. Here I thought perhaps the Clinton forces were trying to plant this story in the blogs and MSM, but now that I see that its already out there, it must not be coming from the Clinton folks.

I get it now. Thanks!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

82. It's your prerogative not to be inspired

But the way some of you are tearing down Obama supporters is not only meanspirited, it's dumb. Personally, I'm happy to see young people interested in the leadership of their country, for once. I think it's great that independents and Republicans are crossing over to vote for him. YMMV.

BTW, Obama doesn't "inspire" me. I happen to think he's really smart.

[Sapphocrat]

47. I wish I could rec your reply.

:applause:

[nonconformist]

92. Thanks!

They sure hate it, though. heh

[Sapphocrat]

109. Of course. You're hitting some very raw nerves.

Which only tells you you're on the right track. But you knew that. :)

[Big Blue Marble]

62. Are you arguing that the average Hillary supporter is more informed

than the average Obama supporter? I would like proof of that. Do you have a link.

I doubt it. This is your opinion and you should state it as so. You sound really ignorant.
Been to many political rallies. Lots of chanting goes on. Pssst.... I have even heard it at Hillary's rallies.

I remember in 1996 being at a Bill Clinton rally. OMG We chanted.

Obama's speeches are mostly fluff and platitudes. You are making stuff up, you are not a very good listener or both.

I will state this emphatically: there is no merit to the claim that Obama supporters are cultists.
You are guilty of swiftboating whether you acknowledge or not.

[nonconformist]

70. I'm arguing that there are a lot of very enthusiastic "yes we can HOPE" voters.

I'm not arguing anything about Hillary supporters.

You want to know why people see it as cult-like, I'm trying to tell you why. But you don't want to hear it. Several Obama supporters have already said they see it, but I guess you can pretend that it's not coming off that way. But that perception is out there, and I'm guessing will probably be through the General at this point. Whenever you start talking about conversions based on hope and faith, it creeps some people out.

[sfam]

74. Again..From you "They've been accused of acting cult-like because so many of them are uninformed."

This is what you told me as to why they seem cult-like. Us refuting this means we don't want to hear it?

And again, taking one or two fringe instances (or "starfuckers" here - whatever those are) to try to prop up a swift-boat style attack doesn't really hold water. You want to make this sound like a rational argument, when in reality its nothing more than early poll-testing. Can we get the MSM to adopt this line? Lets see!

[nonconformist]

78. There was a whole paragraph after that, lol.

And yes, I'm the one that got the media to report on this! I was the only one who saw it that way, and I started a movement! Yay me.

You question why there is a perception that Obama supporters are cult-like. I tell you why that is the PERCEPTION. Avoiding that ugly little fact isn't helping your case for not being blind to everything negative, I might add.

[sfam]

81. Already addressed above...ugly little facts...or Clinton spin adopted by MSM...nt

[Big Blue Marble]

100. You are the one that objectively sounds irrational here.

You think if you say this over and over it means something. I does not. And the more you say it the more ridiculous you sound.

You are the one buying into propaganda and you do not even know it. I hope that is all that is going on here. I will give
you that benefit of the doubt.

You did not start this. Everyone who is politically astute here knows exactly from whence it came. And why it is here.

[nonconformist]

103. I'm not buying into anything... I think that's the point.

My candidate was John Edwards. I support Hillary over Obama, but only because she's the better choice out of the two.

This is shit I noticed all on my own.

This is a cult of personality.

[Big Blue Marble]

94. This is a Clinton campaign talking point. Period.

Why would you fall for it? We wondered why people fell for the swiftboating of Kerry and why they bought the Gore invented the internet thing.

Clear your head and think about this. I bet you are a lot more intelligent than you sound. First of all many of Obama supporters
are college educated and successful functioning members of our society. It is not likely they would fall for a cult.

I, for one, and other members of my family are very rational thoughtful people who yes are inspired by hope that we
can get out of the fucking dark ages we have been living through.

And I bet you are hoping the same even if you support Hillary Clinton. You hope she will be different than Bush, don't you?

Your arguments are based on opinion not fact. They are motivated by your bias for your candidate. They serve your purpose which
is to get your candidate elected.

These types of groundless arguments served George Bush as well, but not our country. So please support your candidate with everything you
have. And stay away from talking points handed down from on high.

[sfam]

98. I have a BA in Anth, an MS in Cybernetics, and am apparently a member of a cult...

Because I'm young (actually I'm 41, so this can't be true), or because I don't understand the issues, or because Obama is a messianic figure, or because I like to say slogans...not sure which.

This REALLY doesn't pass the smell test, does it?

Sure, others have reasons for wanting Hillary, or not liking Obama, but the idea that a charismatic leader is a bad thing for our country simply doesn't fly anymore than the notion that 7.3 million voters last tuesday exhibit cult-like behavior.

[nonconformist]

104. And we're full circle... it's because he's "charismatic" again. nt

[557188]

84. Thank you

Your post said it all.

[Tennessee Gal]

96. I applaud this explanation.

It is right on the mark.

"It's because he's far too inexperienced, and we don't need another president learning on the job. It's because he's not very progressive. It's because he values moderate Republican voters more than big chunks of the Democratic base. It's the belief that he just can't deliver. It's because he seems pretty divisive, espeically for someone who is running on a platform of uniting a nation. It's because he's light on substance, big on style... and frankly, we've had enough of that crap. Call us cynical, but rah rah'ing based on faith got us into a great deal of this shit to begin with."

Precisely!

:yourock:

[Auntie Bush]

99. Bravo! You hit the nail on the head! I haven't heard anyone explain

our feelings better! That is EXACTLY how I feel about Obama. I don't dislike him. I just think Hillary is a better choice for people with real Democratic values. Obama wants to compromise with the Rethugs too much. That's why they like him...he's more in tune with them. I'd like to hear or know how Obama intends to compromise our values to be the uniter he says he is. He'll either have to compromise our values after being elected or he won't be able to keep his campaign promises and do all the things you want accomplished.

[VotesForWomen]

108. truth is, style often comes at the expense of substance. nt