Why is DU so *different* than democrats everywhere else?

[ringmastery]

The media and polls portray democrats as united as ever against Bush. The most united the party has been in decades. This is clearly not evident here at DU.

Liberal candidates such as Kucinich and Nader seem to be getting disproportionately higher support here on DU than elsewhere.

So why the disconnect?

[WilliamPitt]

1. It's a behavioral sink

Do some research on online group dynamics. It always leads to the same place. Nothing, but nothing about DU is reflective of reality as it exists beyond people's keyboards.

[VelmaD]

7. From my own experience...

I have to agree with you. I've been watching the internet "group" phenonmenon for a long time (I was on scifi fan groups all the way back in 1995) and they do all kind of end up in the same place. It doesn't matter what the topic is that initially pulls a group of people together over the net - scifi, skating, writing, politics, whatever...people end up tearing each other apart because it's so much easier to pick at someone else from the safety of anonymity. It's so much easier to be nasty to someone you don't see in person. And petty differences are easier to magnify over the net. It's easy to assume the worst interpretation of what someone says when you're already a little het up about a subject and you don't have any body language or tone clues to help you interpret what they say.

It's fascinating. People are fascinating and sometimes just so utterly predictable.

[mistertrickster]

20. True enough, and you sometimes find the opposite situation, the anonymity

allows people to interact, flirt with, and even fall in love with people they would never give the time of day to if they had to sit beside them in a bar somewhere. (I'm thinking of chat rooms more than message boards.)

[blondeatlast]

14. Interesting... Any that you recommend?

Of course I realize that DU doesn't bear any resemblance to the real-life Democratic Party. I'm shocked and surprised that so many do believe it.

More interested for some other forums, though, specifically dealing with health issues.

Any recommendations would be appreciated--PM if you would prefer.

[Name removed]

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[KoKo]

31. So....."Ringmastery" (master of the three ring) where is my answer? Why

do you ask?

You don't answer yet you call yourself "Ringmastery." Master of the Ring as in LOTR or Master of the Ring as in a Circus where YOU are mastering the three Dem Circles of the Ring....and just WHERE do you stand in all of this........huh???? Left, Middle or Right?

As in 3-RING? :shrug:

[Name removed]

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[w4rma]

42. I fully, totally and strongly disagree with you on this WilliamPitt.

As Dookus says below,

DU doesn't reflect the average American Democrat.

The party *IS* much more united than one would gather from reading DU. We're all political junkies here. We follow things closely and we have strong opinions. Most people don't.

[WilliamPitt]

45. And...

people basing their political opinions on what 'mean' people on DU have said...the debate being shaped more by taking revenge on a group that previously insulted you...none of that has any bearing on the culture here?

Um...

[w4rma]

48. You don't think that sort of thing happens everywhere?

Respect is very important.

[WilliamPitt]

49. Everywhere online?

Probably. When people have to look each other in the eye, though, things are almost always different.

Put it this way: If the Democratic Party was really like DU, the party would have self-destructed a long time ago, and completely ceased to exist, in an historic bloodbath that would make Chicago '68 look like two small children eating cotton candy at the park.

[w4rma]

52. DU hasn't self-destructed. Why would the Democratic Party?

Also, I think that DU is extremely united behind the Democratic nominees and becoming moreso as November approaches.

The debate here gets heated, just as it would get heated in, say, a town meeting (although the debate on DU moves much faster), but I think that most folks here will vote for the Democratic nominees in the election and on news polls.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

56. Well "Mr. Ringmastery" did you have an "extended dinner date tonight?"

Where are your personal replies on this thread? Still waiting to hear....tapping foot....:eyes:

[JCMach1]

68. DU is hyper-reality... a mediated metacommunity

that provides a mediated experience of the media, and almost every other event.

Most people are not receiving their information through a hyper-real media form.

The mediation also informs new DUers... they develop and exercise their skills in the type of meta-rhetoric that takes place here.

New DUers learn these skills (if they don't possess them already) and express them here.

Those skills involve critical thinking. And yes, the lesson of critical thinking is that (not) everyone will come to the same conclusion as yourself.

Not only that, said person may pick apart your argument on WHATEVER.

Some things to always expect from such a system:

1. Because DU is a deconstructive exercise, expect to be deconstructed yourself.
2. Because deconstruction is a particuliarly antagonistic rhetorical position, expect antagonism from time to time.
3. Sometimes mediated reality doesn't work... you still need to be involved with reality to maintain balance.

Finally, enjoy DU for what it is... Online metacommunities are a new thing... growing every year. The tipping point won't be reached this year, but the longer we move forward in time the more influence such communities will have over politics.

It has already revolutionized fundraising in this year's Presidential campaign.

Howard Dean's candidacy was propelled (initially) by such communities. It moved beyond that of course... but the metacommunities gave it visibility and viability.

Compare that to someone like Bob Graham's campaign which had very little organized support in such communities.

Don't kid yourself, metacommunities will be even more important in 2008.

[NNN0LHI]

Because this is an anonymous chat board perhaps? n/t

[Dookus]

2. Simple

DU doesn't reflect the average American Democrat.

The party *IS* much more united than one would gather from reading DU. We're all political junkies here. We follow things closely and we have strong opinions. Most people don't.

[MurikanDemocrat]

3. I've noticed it too. Here's another thread on it ..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=294722

[ringmastery]

5. I also thought

it might have to do with the DU population. I've noticed a lot of younger people, many who may be too idealistic in their youth.

They haven't had the experience of dissapointments after disappointments in politics to become cynical and pragmatic with politics.

[MurikanDemocrat]

11. I believe there are a lot of young members who have never been

through a Primary before, but even the older DU membership seems to be a lot more left leaning and activist than the American population. Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-)

[KoKo]

34. Hello! Democratic "UNDERGROUND" ........underground, underground

as in "RESISTANCE?" Am I missing something here?

Clueless in NC????

[MurikanDemocrat]

63. It's possible

[Crachet2004]

35. Is there any such thing as a passionate moderate?

DU is left-leaning, but that may be at least partially a requirement for having the motivation to post anything at all.

Many of us are disgruntled because it seems even when we do win, we don't really win. We don't advance. Like when Clinton signed Naftaa. That was something a Republican might never have pulled off. Or Welfare 'Reform'. A Republican would have played hell getting that done!

I think the corporate campaign contributions are largely to blame for this sorry state of affairs. Democrat politicians, in order to be elected, have to have money. Then they are beholden to the same interests the Republicans are, instead of the people. We gotta do something about that!

We see Bush singlemindedly taking care of his constituency...and we want...that. For us, I mean. But for us to get 'that', the corporate money has got to go! IMHO.

And now it's John Kerry. Same upper crust background, same Yale, same Bones...it is almost too much-even for me.

But I have been around long enough to know, that you have to start somewhere. Bush stole the last election and we have all paid a heavy price for that. He cannot be allowed to do it again. Kerry probably is the best we have this go-round. He will do.

That was a great thread, by the way. The Magistrate rocks!

[BruinAlum]

70. "The Magistrate rocks"

Yes, I love running across his discussions.:thumbsup:

[fearnobush]

4. ABB, Except Nader,

GET IT!

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. DU has a few posters who oppose US policy

Because this is such a rarity, it is very noticeable.

[Dookus]

8. Don't flatter yourself

nearly EVERYBODY here opposes US policy.

[ScreamingMeemie]

9. I agree Dookus. Everyone does to some extent.

:hi:

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. I mean the actual policies as opposed to what names they are given or

who implements them. I should have specified that in my original post.

for example, there are some who do not agree with the premise that the world and all its resources are US property to do with as it pleases.

A more moderate dissenting view would accept that premise as a given, but feel very strongly that it should be presented in politer language than that used by the bush regime.

[sangha]

16. Would you then do us the favor of pointing out

when you see someone who thinks "the world and all its resources are US property to do with as it pleases"? I've seen some unusual arguments, but I don't recall anyone saying that.

[RichM]

17. Here's an example of the mindset of a typical DU "mainstream Dem"

In this excerpt from a day or so ago, a "mainstream Dem" attacked a DU "progressive" by picking at the elements of the latter's "sig" line. First he quoted the sig, then went after each piece of it:

==================
"Progressive issues Kerry needs to address: single-payer healthcare, getting us out of Iraq, promising no more illegal and aggressive wars, repealing the Patriot Act, ending the WTO's grip on power, cut military spending to improve social programs, fighting media consolidation."

If people wanted this platform, they would have voted for it.

People don't want single payer health. They will accept a subsidized buy-in for those who can't get health insurance anywhere else along with cost cutting measures.

People don't want us to get out of Iraq. They don't want to turn it over to terrorist groups or oppressive Islamist governments. They want the situation resolved for the best interests of the Iraqi people and the region.....
=================

This hardly shows "opposition" to US policy. In fact, it is entirely compatible with current Republican thinking. Mary Matalin would be nodding her head approvingly if she read the entire post, except that the poster (for some reason) prefers Kerry to Bush.

Scratch the surface of a mainstream Democrat, and what you'll find is 35% or so Republican. Without realizing it, these people have unconsciously assimilated most of the premises of the Republican worldview. After all, what does it mean to be "mainstream?" It means: you are more in line with the corporate media version of current events, and more in line with the traditional interpretations of history, such as it's taught in US high schools. IOW, you accept that the US is almost always righteous, beneficent, & engaged in nice activities like "strengthening democracy" and "fighting for freedom."

[sangha]

21. A nice little bit of sophistry at work here

This hardly shows "opposition" to US policy. In fact, it is entirely compatible with current Republican thinking.

Please note how agreeing with one aspect of US policy is equated with not being opposed to ANY US policies, which is then conflated with the Repuke's tendency to agree with authority.

[RichM]

22. You have fallen into my trap. BWAhhaha! I shall now nail you to the wall.

First, note that you called the above "agreement with ONE aspect of US policy," when obviously, it was TWO - health care & Iraq. Now I shall present more of what Mr. "mainstream Dem" wrote in his post:

=================
People don't want the Patriot Act repealed. They know we need it to fight terrorists, who really and truly do exist. They just want the parts that violate civil rights repealed, just like John Kerry.

People don't want the WTO and NAFTA repealed because they know we have to trade and have to have laws to regulate that trade. They want John Kerry to enforce those laws.

People don't want our miltary spending cut to fund social programs. They want our military spending to be fiscally responsible and pay for what the troops need, not for war profiteering. Social programs don't even fit into that equation.

People want a reasonable balance in the media. Contrary to what people think today, our media is freer than its ever been in regards to free speech. We never would have had Howard Stern or the Fab Five 20 years ago. We've got a Fairness Doctrine problem and that needs to be addressed....

============================
So here we have, in addition to the 2 points of agreement noted above, another 4 points of agreement. As I said, scratch the surface of a mainstream Dem, and much of what you'll find is (unconsciously) Republican.

[sangha]

25. More sophistry

I doubt you could find one DU poster who thinks like that on all of those issue, never mind showing that that is a typical DUer or a mainstream Dem.

[wyldwolf]

30. sangha, the posts I could show you ...

...from RichM. I could call them "Profile of a Stalin and Milosevic Apologist" or merely "Here's an example of the mindset of a typical DU "fringe left extremist."

[RichM]

39. Gee, I'd like to see one of those posts myself!!

Please show us a post where I am being a "Stalin apologist." Please, I'd really love to see it.

This does NOT include posts, BTW, where I am merely defending Michael Parenti from your attempts to smear him for being "a Stalin apologist." It ALSO doesn't count, if you produce a post where I was arguing that Stalin was not exactly the maximum demon that Western mythology has painted him as being - for this is a different point, which goes to the nature of the US propaganda system. // To win the prize, you must show us a post where I myself am arguing that Stalin was basically a good guy.

If you can't do that, it will be clear that your bluff has been called, & that you were exposed as being full of it.

[wyldwolf]

41. Sure it does.. Parenti is a Stalin/Milosevic apologist...

...you are a follower of Parenti. Connect the dots.

And your reply here is full of far left rhetoric:

if you produce a post where I was arguing that Stalin was not exactly the maximum demon that Western mythology has painted him as being - for this is a different point, which goes to the nature of the US propaganda system.

Bwahahahahaha! US propaganda system! Wonder why Europe feels the same way about Stalin? Oh, we got to them, too, and indoctrinated them with our "propaganda." Right?

But aside from those, here was a good one..


President Kerry will seek to pound foreign nations into submission, but much more nicely than pResident Bush. He will share the loot with fellow imperialists in Europe to a greater degree.

And this, where you actually quoted a neocon to (try to) prove your point:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=432382#432969

And, by the way, YOU don't set the terms.

[RichM]

43. Aww, poor little wolfie couldn't deliver the goods. What a surprise.

I'm so disappointed. Here you went & promised everyone that you'd dredge up a post where I was being a "Stalin apologist" - and when challenged on it, you couldn't make good on your promise. Tsk tsk. Ah well, when you're a gasbag, I guess that happens sometimes, eh? The risks of the trade.

Do you think my above quote about "President Kerry" proves that I am a "Stalin/Milosevic apologist?" I don't think it quite qualifies, though it's clearly the best you can come up with.

[wyldwolf]

46. Defender of a Stalin apologist for his defense of Stalin makes one a...

..Stalin apologist.

Do you think my above quote about "President Kerry" proves that I am a "Stalin/Milosevic apologist?" I don't think it quite qualifies, though it's clearly the best you can come up with.

Poor guy. Short attention span. There was a second part of my statement. Your quote on Kerry exemplified THAT perfecty.

[bushclipper]

47. I dunno, Rich, he pretty much did what he said he'd do

He wrote that you had posts that showed you to be a Stalin and Milosevic Apologist"

You tried to diffuse it by attempting to set a rule that your defense of Michael Parenti (who is a Stalin and Milosevic apologist) doesn't qualify. In fact, it does.

He then showed examples of "Here's an example of the mindset of a typical DU "fringe left extremist." That would be you.

Mission accomplished, wyldwolf!

[sangha]

59. C'mon RichM! wyldewolfe defended his claims, why won't you?

I asked you "I doubt you could find one DU poster who thinks like that on all of those issues, never mind showing that that is a typical DUer or a mainstream Dem."

So why won't you defend yourself?

[DuctapeFatwa]

23. Great example! To be fair though, I think that like racism and

Islamophobia, it is so deeply ingrained that most don't even realize it.

It is just accepted as a given that the "wes," led, naturally by the US, knows what is best for the primitive childlike peoples of the Majority World, which just coincidentally happens to be what is best for US business interests.

The definition of democracy itself, though dictionaries lag behind, has become "puts US business interests first."

"multilateralism" means bribing other countries with war loot.

To suggest that other countries and their resources do not belong to the US, that the US does NOT know what is best for them, and would do well to clean its on house and get out and stay out of all its little centers of crusade activity, will get you called a traitor, a terrorist, a divider, and all kinds of epithets, both classic and modern.

That's if you do it on a "progressive" message board.

Try it in real life and it'll get you a spot on the no-fly list, a visit from the FBI, and a good shot at being disappeared.

[Mairead]

74. Well found, Rich, excellent example!

There are a lot of them at DU and out in the world, regretably. And by their uncompromising declarative statements they make the world seem more rightwing than it is. They're especially attractive to people who feel the need for more certainty in their lives.

[silver state d]

32. Its all about flattery, self flattery.

don't you know that only the self righteous know the way?

[blondeatlast]

18. Yes, so rare indeed.

That's why I count on the fingers of one hand when I tally the DUers that actually supported the invasion of Iraq.

All 4 of them.

I'm beginning to see the value of that lovely little "ignore" button.

[DuctapeFatwa]

24. Try counting the ones who opposed Afghanistan AND Iraq

and oppose either country being occupied by the US OR people paid by the US regardless of hat color.

[mot78]

10. Politically-oriented sites tend to draw in more of the extremes

the same holds true for FR, although they're less tolarent of dissent than we are. I real life, I bet there are more people who agree with the DLC than we like to say here.

[KoKo]

13. Because the Site isn't linked as : " Democratic Aboveground."

And, many of us came here after "The Selection" when our "Aboveground Democratic Party" let us down big time by not fighting back against what happened in Florida.

So, there are still a few "in the trenches" Democrats left here who really are "Left" in more ways than one. If you get my pun. We were looking for an "Underground," and thankfully Skinner/Earl G. provided a forum for us and a way to connect with each other.

:-)'s

Why do you ask, Ringmastery?

[wyldwolf]

15. All of the above, plus...

..it attracts those who aren't democrats and their voices are weighed in, too.

[Mairead]

19. I can't believe this. Honestly. I can't.

People here have seen the evidence that the media lies, distorts, and manufactures consent in service of the right wing. And yet, when it comes to whether to believe the media portrayal or what you see in front of your eyes here, you trust the media.

Are you all MAD??

[KoKo]

28. Mairead, could you explain more where folks here believe the media?

I didn't quite get your post as it relates to the replies on this thread.

I don't believe anything the "Corporate Whore Media" says....but I don't see how this relates to "Ringmastery's original post???

Thanks....and Peace to You!

[Mairead]

73. Well, ringmastery starts out by contrasting

The media and polls portray democrats as united as ever against Bush. The most united the party has been in decades. This is clearly not evident here at DU.

Liberal candidates such as Kucinich and Nader seem to be getting disproportionately higher support here on DU than elsewhere.

...what media and polls tell him with what he's seen here. And he comes down on the side of believing them ('DK & Nader get higher here than elsewhere') rather than believing the evidence of his personal experience ('what's their motive for trying to get us to believe that') or even suspending judgement ('who should we believe?')).

And then, in quick succession, several people--including Will Pitt who should know better if anyone should--immediately declared their faith in the media's truthfulness. The fact that we've all WATCHED the media lie without shame (e.g. Dean's 'scream') cut no ice. They wouldn't lie to me / Not on my own damn' teevee

I found it appalling.

[madfloridian]

26. I notice the media says the Democrats are more united.

I am not sure that is the case. There is so much divisiveness we can see where we are. The party is trying to rise from the ashes here, but there seems little room for anyone with diverse views.

Now, since we are moderate in our views, it is odd that we would notice it so much.

The activists who disagree with some of the present policies of the DLC wing are becoming more obvious this year, and they are most certainly not welcome. At least not in our area. It was suggested to the Dean supporters that it was puzzle that we were attending meetings still since Dean dropped out.

I would like to think it is true that we are all unified, but there are so many with varying views. I think it may be just the opposite.
I think maybe there will be more obvious differences cropping up as the retirees and seniors begin to suffer as the Democrats allow Social Security and Medicare to slip from their grasps. People are not satisfied with the party, not where we live.

I do believe that most Democrats will vote for the nominee in the fall, but I don't think that should be interpreted as party unity.

[KoKo]

29. Hey! Nice observation...about this. I don't think that ABB should be

looked on as "party unity" either. And, like what you said here..

[Hippo_Tron]

33. United is figurative, the media doesn't lie but they stretch the truth

Democrats are united in the sense that most of them don't want Bush in the white house. However, members of the democratic party have very different stances on certain issues. The media does not pick up on this.

[KoKo]

36. yep......subtlety is now the Media's real strength. And Debate isn't

either. Put a Dem of quality against your average Gingrich Repug out there and let them "go at it" as a service to the American People.

No ratings (because they don't promote it) and they will pick mods for the debate from the worst of the Media Whore Dregs....and at the end of the Debate they declare the REPUG the winner!

Stacked deck. And you 20 to early 30 something DU'ers won't know the difference, because you've been "primed." Ugh...if you are here you have a brain, though. And, you can be redeemed. :D

[Mairead]

75. The media doesn't lie? Surely you're being ironic. Please reassure us

that you merely forgot the eye-roll icon.

They lie like rugs, and apparently without the slightest flicker of conscience. The relentless, seemingly-coordinated smoothing over of Coup2000 is just one of many examples we all could come up with if we wanted to take the time.

[asthmaticeog]

50. Kucinich supporters

are united against Bush right there with you. He's a Democrat and has repeatedly said he'd remain one. His supporters in the primaries are necessarily Democratic voters. Don't lump us in with Naderites. Furthermore, I haven't seen this "support" for Nader that you speak of here. I've seen plenty of anti-Nader vitriol, though.

[OKNancy]

51. We are more united...out in the real world

Do people on DU actually go out and work and do things for the Democratic party? Out here in the real world, I've never seen anything like it.

Let me give you an example: as an outgrowth of the strong and large Clark meet-up group, there is a new group forming. We have had one meeting. Dean and Edwards people came too. It is called Oklahomans for Common Sense in 04. We are starting groups in all Oklahoma counties ( look for the website soon)

Our goals are ambitious. They are:

---pasted from an e-mail----

1. Gaining a Presidential victory for the Democratic
candidate in Oklahoma (something that hasn’t been done
sine 1964)

2. Gaining the Senatorial seat for the Democratic
candidate, and

3. Pick-up at least one additional Democratic seat in
Congress.

Simply put – kick Bush and his neo-con buddies out of
our house!

Admittedly, these sound like ambitious and perhaps
insurmountable goals, until you look at the numbers.
Active Democrat voters in Oklahoma hold a registered
advantage of approximately 236,000 registered voters
over those active Republican voters. Even so, we
manage to lose election after election. Our goal is
to address some of these issues and correct them.

To see a brief summary of what was presented at our
last meeting, go to –

http://okiedemocrat.com/

and click on “Oklahomans for Common Sense in 04
Presentation”

With the help of Susan Vineyard, we are in the process
of designing our own “Oklahomans for Common Sense in
04” web site (ok4sommonsense.org).

[KoKo]

57. "Ringmastery," Wherefore art thou on this post of yours? "Hit and Run?"

:shrug:

[Desertrose]

60. I didn't realize we had a rule here on DU

that folks had to respond at all or within a certain timeframe or they get labeled a "Hit & Run"?
Seems rather presumptious to assume a person has to be here when you "expect" them to be...

I know there are plenty of times I have only a limited time on the computer...am I not supposed to post if I can't wait around to reply when folks want me too??

gee.... :eyes:


Peace
DR

[AmyStrange]

58. I don't believe there really is any difference except...

that in the real world you see everyone's mask, but you really don't see them at their worst. Here in the DU, you are anonymous and you are allowed to take the mask off and display anything you want and basicly get away with it. This is a powerful motivation to let the darkest recesses of your mind to hang out.

What surprises me is the number of folks who are still nice to you and try to understand where you are coming from. And, most of the time it's honest:

In the DU (or almost anywhere else on the internet), unless you threaten to kill the president or something like that, you can get away with not always having to wear your mask.

This means you can be as dark and evil as you want, but lots of folks decide not to be that way... and this gives me hope,


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

(edited for grammatical sense)

[mandyky]

61. Because we are liberal activists, not sheeple

and we've been paying attention since last year at this time. Most Dems in the mainstream, just started paying attention and are getting their news from the corporate media. Probably about 25% of the have gone to any websites. Maybe half have seen more than one debate.

[notbush]

64. Actually I have some worries

as to how united and fired up we are.
On the "Beltway Boys" Sat. Mort pointed out that voter turnout in the Dem primaries was only about 2/3's of repug turnout in 2000.
I don't think this is a positive development.

[incapsulated]

65. I don't know about that

During the first wave of Primaires, they were breaking records for turnout.

After it looked like Kerry had it wrapped up, turnout fell. If you average the before and after, it might not look impressive, but the initial response was pretty strong.

 
 

[notbush]

66. I think some of the early primaries

allowed anyone to vote in the Dem. primary. This would have been the case 4 years ago in the repug primaries.
I specifically remember many dems voting for McCain in the Mich. primary since Gore wrapped up the nomination so early.

[incapsulated]

67. Turnout was high in NH and the second round of States

Wasn't it?

 
 

[notbush]

69. Io wa and New Hampshire

were pretty good ....Cal. was BAD (key state) Swartzengroper is popular right now.....who knows.
These numbers will change in the next 9 months .......maybe with us...maybe agin us....

[BruinAlum]

71. The DU is definitely more left leaning than the general population, and

there seems to be more single issue litmus tests here for candidates then I ever hear of among the general population.

I don't know of any Democrats in my daily life that would dream of going Nader as all of them are singularly minded about getting rid of Bush if they have to drive to DC and throw him out personally.

[Iverson]

72. It's not "disconnect." It's liberalism.

DU still has a whiff of it. Party unity for its own sake is pointless. At some point, people will need to engage with ideas, and you can still see that here. Think of it as the "underground" that made this place distinctive.