Nader has already hurt Kerry's chances

[welshTerrier2]

i like ralph nader ... he delivers a real anti-corporate message that reflects a deep understanding of how corrupted our democracy has become ...

BUT HE SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT !!!

perhaps he plans to spend the campaign helping democrats and attacking bush ... perhaps he plans to energize Greenies and Deanies and then cast his support to Kerry ... perhaps he's just so damned egotistical that he just can't stay away ...

the problem, though, is that even if he's trying to help, and that's certainly open for debate, his entry to the race has already hurt the democrats very badly ...

week after week we've seen polls showing Kerry with a lead over bush ... are polls accurate ... no ... are they meaningful this early in the campaign ... yes, in a way ... the myth bush has created that he can not be beaten and that no democrat has a chance had to be destroyed ... too many still believe this myth ... but invincibility is a pretty tough sell when you're down 5 or more points in the polls ... and bush has been consistently running behind Kerry ...

until Nader entered the race, that is ... yesterday's AP poll showed bush: 46%, Kerry: 45% and Nader: 6% ... this is not the news we need to convince americans that bush is on a downward spiral ... if voters smell the blood of bush's demise, they will react like sharks do ... and it will be over for bush before the campaign even starts ...

Nader has already done real damage to the democrats by neutralizing Kerry's lead over bush ... he needs to get out now and leave politics to those who know what they're doing ...

[Uber Llama]

1. I heard they would be dead even...

If Nader was not on the ballot. Yes, surprisingly, just 1% less of the GOP than the Dems said they would vote for Nader. Don't know where I heard it, though.

[shooga]

2. (_*_)

NADER = (_*_) = A$$HOLE



http://www.explorenader04.org

[Darkseid69]

3. AP Poll

said Nader would get 6% in a 3 way matchup. Doesn't make since because Nader didn't even get 2% last time and he's definitely not as popular this time.

[LSparkle]

9. Good point

Makes me wonder if someone is rigging the polls ... like maybe KKKarl?

[MadHound]

4. Then I've got a solution for you

Give all of us disaffected, disgruntled Dems, Greens, non-voters something to vote FOR. Co-opt a couple of the Green party's planks for the Dem platform. Compromise you know. If the Dems come out in support of universal health care, a living wage, same sex marriage, etc., most of us out here on the "fringe" are pragmatic enough to vote for our self interests. However if all the Dems are going to do is ignore except when they want to scare us into line or bully us into line, most will go Green, Nader, or home.

It's all about compromise friend, giving everybody something to vote for. The Dems should try it, its amazing how well it would work.

[Mz Pip]

5. If four more years

of Bush isn't reason enough to get out and vote for the Democrat, I'm not sure there is much of anything that anyone can do to please you.

Unfortunately change cannot happen while Bush is in office at all. It may not happen as fast as some would like with the Dem in office but progressive strides will be made.

MzPip
:dem:

[MadHound]

11. Now see, this is what I'm talking about

Just this very thing, fearmongering and bully boy tactics. Do you know WHY people are voting third party? The same reason that there are fifty million non-voters, they have become so hopeless and cynical about both parties. They realize that neither party cares one bit about them, neither party is looking out for their interests, that both parties are corporately corrupt and the candidates aren't beholden to their constituents but to their corporate masters.

If you would get off of your high horse for a minute and come to the table with something besides ridicule and fear, then the possiblities for a Dem victory are endless. Think about it, toss out universal health care for a platform plank, and I guarantee that that move alone would bring the Dems in 12 million votes alone. Think I'm joking? Let me explain it to you. You have fifty million non-voters in this country, many if not the majority are so poor, so entrenched in the dark underbelly of our society that they have come to the conclusion(quite rightly) that their voice, much less their vote makes no difference in the greater scheme of things. If you through out universal health care for these people(the real deal, not the faux shit Clinton spouted), all of the sudden the poor and downtrodden would see how their vote could make a vast improvement in their lives. It is more than likely that half of the non-voters in this country would get off their ass to vote for something that would radically improve their lives like UHC, and a lock that at least twenty five percent of the non-voters would do this. That adds up to 12 million votes in the Dem column, with looooong coattails. Gee, and everybody gets something. The Dems get the win they want, and the poor get health care, wow talk about win-win.

But hey, if the Dems haven't learned this lesson from '00 and '02 when they tried the same fearmongering and bully boy tactics, then I guess they're in for a remidial lesson this year.

[sandnsea]

14. Where's my answer????

Just ignored me huh. Because I called your bullshit. You laid out issues, I gave you specific responses. You've got nothing to be griping about. We've got one of the most liberal candidates in the Democratic Party. As liberal as Kucinich or Wellstone. And it ain't good enough for you.

[MadHound]

17. Get a grip, I can only type so fast, and it is time for me to go

But before a do, how about something real. Like real universal health care, not this "buy in" shit, or "generous subsidies" bull. Real fucking UHC! And we're not talking about just Kerry's promises, we're talking about planks in the Democratic platform. Vague promises have a tendency to disappear after an election, but serious planks get made into law. That is the compromise we want.

And here you are, a fine example of the bully boy tactics I was talking about. Cool your jets and listen bub. You think you're entitled to everything since your candidate won. Well, it looks like you need us fringers to win this fight, and you know what that means? That you have to do the C word that you so hate. That's right, compromise.

Big tent baby, big tent. Give some to get some, that's what its all about.

[sandnsea]

20. Again, you've got the compromise

You're not going to get single payer. That's a guaranteed loss in November. Now what. There's no left of Kerry to go to. He's as far left as you can get, right where he is, and still win.

[welshTerrier2]

6. a solution for me ??

well, let me tell you that i consider myself "out here on the fringe" and i don't need to be lectured about having the dems co-opt a couple of planks from the Green party ... you're preaching to the choir, my friend ...

but i will tell you that I strongly disagree with your voting strategy ... i will tell you that after several billion posts i made criticizing Kerry's hideous vote on the IWR, i'm supporting him, or anyone the dems nominate, with all the energy i have ...

you'll get no criticism from me for deeply believing in progressive values ... but voting anything but democratic in this election is pure folly ...

frankly, i can't see any point in the dems trying to scare you into line ... if bush hasn't already done that, i hardly see how democrats can achieve it ...

voting 3rd party because there is so much wrong with the democrats makes lots of sense ... democrats need to understand that we on the left are sick and tired of being taken for granted and if it takes years to build an opposition party, we're going to do it ...

the only thing is, my friend, the time to do this starts AFTER the next election ... this election is different ... bush is corrupt, very well funded and very dangerous ... he could put an end to the republic ... stick to your principles ... send the democrats a message ... build a 3rd party ... AFTER bush is gone ... do what you have to do ... i hope you'll consider my thoughts ...

[MadHound]

13. Sorry, but that carrot and stick has been overused

"After the election. . ." "If you don't vote Dem, the Dark Ages will fall because X is the devil incarnate" All of this has been overblown and overused too many times.

Instead of the fearmongering and bully boy tactics, give the people something to vote FOR, rather than just against.

[welshTerrier2]

16. If your view is

that highlighting the damage already caused by bush is "overblown and overused", i think it best for me to not discuss the election with you any further ...

there is no possibility that we could achieve any kind of consensus ...

[Not Me]

19. Do you need more than the current administration to prove this out?

"If you don't vote Dem, the Dark Ages will fall because X is the devil incarnate" All of this has been overblown and overused too many times.

We are IN the freakin dark ages with the devil right now.

[WitchWay]

36. But if we are in the dark ages

And Kerry voted for IWR and the Patriot Act -- doesn't that mean that he's been making deals with the devil?

[sandnsea]

7. He's offered a compromise

He's come out for a plan to allow everybody to buy into the federal health plan, with generous subsidies for low income families. He's come out for a living wage, several times. He's come out for federal rights for gay couples and all rights up to the word marriage. He's come out against a federal Constitutional Amendment. He's give 95% of what you're asking for, and it's not enough. That's why I personally have had it. There is NO candidate to the left of Kerry that has a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected and he STILL isn't good enough. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

[WitchWay]

15. What compromise?

There are reasons that the other candidates don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected, and this has to do with a frontloaded candidate with excess money and preferential media coverage. It also has to do with an Anybody But Bush meme-propaganda campaign. The DNC is also culpable, look at their website today and they are practically declaring Kerry the nominee despite the fact that there has been no convention. There has to be a convention before there is an official nominee, and it is wrong for the DNC to mislead people. There are still people who want representation at the convention. There are still people who need to vote.
The Corporate mainstream media has been working hard to silence alot of truth-telling and progressive ideas. They don't want people to really understand what is going on in Washington. So, we aren't hearing anything that Corporate interests don't want us to hear.
Want to hear about health care? Take a visit to Kucinich's site. Now, Kucinich has something to say about the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and their influence over Washington (including the democratic party).
So, Kerry has come out for a living wage, several times? Well, why is anyone thrilled about that? For goodness sakes', as a democrat he should be for a living wage, regardless. He deserves no applause there.
There are so many people who are anti-war, and war is serious, that I dont' believe that you can equate that with a simple percentage (what - less than 5%) when you discuss a platform. So, what's been going during the primaries is NOT good enough.

[sandnsea]

18. MadHound wanted a compromise

You want your way or no way. You don't seem to recognize how devastating the consequence of your choice will be.

On edit:

Maybe it's because you've got health insurance. I don't. I'd like to have an opportunity to buy some at a reasonable price. I'd also like my kids to have the opporunity to continue their college education. That will depend on the costs as well as grants and other programs available. Maybe that's the difference between you and me, I really need a change right now. I've got no time to dink around and hope for the best in 4 years.

[WitchWay]

27. Consequences?

Actually...I don't have health insurance. I've barely had health insurance in the last 10 years of my life. I was homeless for a while during the last couple years, too. You should not presume that I have lead some fortunate live free of hardships. I have suffered the consequences from both republican and democratic poltiicians. They've been dinking around with me and many others our whole lives.

But, my concerns are nothing compared to imperialistic policy and the war in Iraq. It's nothing compared to the life and wellbeing of American soldiers and Iraqi citizens who are suffering. Where is Kerry's pullout plan? Why does he support progressive internationalism? And as for workers? Why does he support WTO and NAFTA? These are going to have devastating consequences.

I, myself, support Kucinich. I think it is sorry how the democratic party has marginalized him, and let the media marginalized him. I think the democratic party is trying to marginalize candidates like Kucinich, Dean and Sharpton so that they can help their corporate sponsors and concerns.

Talking about health insurance, you should look at Kucinich's website and Kerry's website. Take a look at Kerry's plan -- sounds to me like taxpayers taking care of high-cost patients, to free up the insurance agencies to keep more profits. And his insurance doesn't cover the unemployed.

Also, no matter what candidate you support -- I would also urge you to look at Kucinich's webpage today to see what he has to say about the pharmaceutical and insurance industries. His issues have been blacked out by the media.

[sandnsea]

28. I've looked at Kucinich

America will never accept a health plan without profits. It's pie in the sky. Spitting in the wind. A waste of your breath. Waste of your time.

WTO and NAFTA? How do you suggest third world countries move out of their poverty without jobs? How do you suggest they get the money to build economies? What do you suggest we do with these people so they don't get pissed off and blow us up?

They will blow us up. People like Saddam Hussein will be happy to encourage them and help them. What was Dennis' plan? I guess he thought he'd call Saddam on the phone and ask for inspectors to go back in and Saddam would say sure, come on in peaceman.

I am sorry. Dennis' plans are just not realistic. They're very dreamy to think about and wouldn't it be great if everybody shared and made nice, but that's not the way the world is. So I choose progress and we will get ALOT of it with John Kerry. And that's a whole lot more appealing than the consequences of four more years of George Bush which is to horrifying to think about.

[WitchWay]

30. Progress?

so...you belive that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11?
that nafta is good for impoverished countries?
that the WTO organization gets great jobs for the people in poverty?

I think that you've been watching too much FoxNews and listenening to too much Clear Channel talk radio.

Corporate mainstream media serves corporate interests. It's toxic.

[sandnsea]

32. Reality is good

Dennis wanted inspectors in Iraq. That's reality.

People all over the world need jobs and trade is the only way to get them. Some people have been helped by trade, others hurt. Now we have to make the trade agreements better, for them and us.

I think you've been reading too much wsws. You can't find solutions with rigid ideology, no matter where it comes from.

[WitchWay]

34. But what reality do we want?

Kucinich is the only one talking realistically about trade. He points out that the WTO forbids the US from amending it. NAFTA, WTO, GATT all override US sovereignty at local, state and federal levels. Swing voters understand this, and only Kucinich addresses this concern.

Iraq. Kucinich started holding hearings in early 2000 with Scott Ritter to expose the fact that Clinton ordered inspectors out of Iraq in 1998 - Saddam NEVER kicked them out. Clinton did. Clinton then bombed Iraq, claiming they had WMD and a recent report shows no evidence of WMD in Iraq after 1994. So, Clinton lied just like Bush lied, in order to bomb Iraq. That's reality for you.

"We need trade. Trade is the essence of human interaction. We need countries to be able to talk to one another. We need the chance for trade to serve as the basis for peace in the world. But there's another thing we need. We need trade that's based on principles of equity. We need trade that's based on principles of social and economic justice. We need trade that's based on human rights. We need trade that says there shall be no child labor, nor prison labor, nor slave labor. We need trade that protects the environment. We need trade that protects our society. We need trade with a vision of social and economic justice. Oh yes, we need trade." - Dennis Kucinich

http://www.denniskucinich.org/trade-030104.php

[welshTerrier2]

23. Kerry IS the nominee !!

The DNC is also culpable, look at their website today and they are practically declaring Kerry the nominee despite the fact that there has been no convention.

i voted for Kucinich ... i want to see the democratic party move to the left ...

but it's time to stop insisting of the formalities of getting to the 2161 (or whatever) delegates and it's time to stop waiting for the convention ... most of us in the party are singularly focussed on getting bush out ...

this means getting a nominee and getting down to business ... are you expecting Kucinich to launch a last minute, come from behind victory ???

you don't like the DNC ??? you don't like the corporate mainstream media ??? you don't like how big money and party insiders controlled the process ??? WELL NEITHER DO I !!

but we part company on your ABB criticism ... bush has got to go ... there is no alternative ... you're right to complain about the primary process ... you're right that democrats don't hear the message from Greens and other progressives ... there is plenty that needs to be changed ... but nothing will be changed for the better if we don't get this corrupt war mongering gang out of office ...

putting this more simply: bush has got to go ... and progressives need to do everything they can to ensure that he does ... there just is not an alternative ... do i want to subjugate my beliefs to vote for democrats? no, frankly i don't ... but now, this year, this election, that's exactly what i'm going to do with every ounce of energy i have ...

you have to know when to pick your battles ... and this year is not the right year for the left ... give me a call the day after the election ... i'll be with you 100% ....

[WitchWay]

29. When to pick your battles?

Kerry is not technically the nominee. Kucinich has to get into the convention, to express the issues and concerns that have not yet been addressed. Kerry is not the nominee until the convention. Until then, there is still a primary going on. The DNC should not act otherwise.

If people don't allow Kucinich and other liberals from influencing the party now, it will be too late, either way. We will either have 4 more years of Bush, or 4-8 more years of Kerry. And, really, when will the issues be addressed? Make no mistake, the DNC will always have that mean monster of republicanism to scare everyone into towing the party line, and settling for a non-commital candidate. They are using learned helplessness and cowardice of the party to bend the way of corporate interests.

Think about it: Did the democrats pull together in 2002? Is 4 years from now going to magically be a better time to demand that issues be addressed? Is 4 years from now going to be a good time to pull out of Iraq? Or to be against NAFTA? Or offer universal health care? Or elections that are based more on choices than on fascist bullying tactics like unity pledges?

[welshTerrier2]

31. ABB

i voted for Kucinich ... he is not just the party's future but the country's future ... progressives often see the way long before their message is co-opted by the moderates ...

there was little explicitly stated in your post to disagree with ...

the BIG DISAGREEMENT i have with you, however, is not what you put in your post but what you left out of it ...

it is the dead elephant lying in the middle of your living room ... and you all too conveniently pretended it didn't exist ...

this is not to say that you are unaware of it ... but go look at your post ... the word doesn't appear anywhere ... and the word is: bush ...

bush is not just bad because he's a right winger ... he's not bad just because of this policy or that one ... he, in his blundering ignorance, has allowed our government to be taken over by evil men ...

we have never had an administration this eager to do away with habeus corpus ... "throw them in jail and don't even let them see a lawyer" ... invade Iraq for your friends at Halliburton while you cut veterans benefits ... bankrupt the treasury so we can do away with social security and other "discretionary" spending like education, aid for the poor, medical research ... and millions will suffer ... if you haven't liked bush for the last 3 years, imagine what he'll be like when he doesn't have to face the voters again !!

i'm not trying to scare or bully anyone ... you go do what you have to do ... you can see what bush has done to this country as clearly as i can ... you don't need me to scare you ... but don't try to tell me this is just another election ... bush is a very powerful destructive force ...

will 4 years from now "magically be a better time" ??? all i can say is it damned well better be ... bush has got to go ... we need to make a 100% commitment to ensuring he does ... there is no alternative ...

[WitchWay]

35. Dead End

It's not productive to believe that there is no alternative...that means that you are helpless, at a dead end.

If the DNC and its corporate sponsors think everyone is going to vote ABB -- then, they can put up any platform that they damn well please. There's no leverage from the voters, and we will end up with a terrible platform that really WON'T be any better than Bush's. That is why it is crucial for everyone to support Kucinich until the convention and demand change now. This is why it is important to NOT sign DNC unity pledges and to be in an ABB mindset.

Corporate interests are drolling at the cowardice of the electorate to demand real progress. If the nominee stands for real progress, then he's more liable to beat bush anyways. If he doesn't, he's in real trouble.

[MadAsHell]

8. Excuse me but ....

Have you read the Democratic Party platform? I have read the Wisconsin platform and can't imagine what you mean. There is all kinds of pro-enviroment, pro-civil liberities, workers rights, limiting of corporate power planks in the platform. I think the greens, disgruntled Dems and non-voters need to stop listening to Saint Ralph's line and find out where the rank and file of the democratic party actually is.

Anybody that can say there is no difference between the parties, with a straight face, is simply delusional.

[MadHound]

12. The Dems haven't drafted a platform this year yet

So how can I read it until after the convention:shrug:

[WitchWay]

25. Where does the democratic party stand?

Remember everyone thought Clinton was liberal too - but he was no pacifist, and he got us into the WTO and NAFTA, as well. (Also, I don't think that the state platforms necessarily correspond to the national platform.)
I would urge you to take a look at the following articles, Kerry's webpage on Foreign Policy, and the Progressive Internationalism document.

This is an interesting article:
http://pilger.carlton.com/print

You might want to try reading the Kerry platform:
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy/

And the full text is available here:
http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=124&subsecID=158&contentID=252144

It is not democratic to stifle voices, and insistance on stifling voices is the first step to fascism. The democratic party, if they are a sound party who actually do represent the rank and file, will be able to tolerate criticisms.

[shivaji]

10. If Kucinich or Dean were nominated, Nader would never run

[sandnsea]

22. And they'd never win

That's the whole point. Kerry is as far left as we can go and still have a chance of winning. That is what "electability" is all about.

[Nicholas_J]

33. I find it amusing

That Kerry, who has the most liberal record of any of the candidates running, is being cast as not liberal enough. Even Kucinich's record is nowhere near as liberal as Kerry's accoring to all of the independent organizations that track a candidates actual lifetime record, and thats where the truth lies, not in the campaign platform. Whil I greatly admire Kucinich, going back to look at his overall record leads to a record that is far less sterling in all areas of progressive and liberal voting.

Dean's actual record is so far away from liberalism or progresiveism that his tenure as govenror led to the grownth of the largest progressive party at the state level which grew to the largest single progressive party as a factor of percentage of stte population. The Vermont Progressive party is the largest single progressive third party in any state. Half of all the progressive third party elected state officials that are in office in the U.S. are in Vermont. Democrats credit Dean's conservatism as leader of the Democratic Party in Vermont with the large losses og supporters who abandoned the democratic party in Vermont to join the Progressives.

If you go back and check Deans record as Governor it consists of nearly total opposition to liberal politics. Therte are few, if any liberal issues that can beattribited to Dean's leadership in Vermont. Both the Civil Union legislation, and Vermonte progressive propoerty tax were initiated by Dean. Cuvul Union was forced on him by the Vt Supreme Court, and while the case was in the courts Dean was one of the only Democrats who did not come forth and indicate their support of the gay side of the case. other Democrats, like Doug Racine, the Lt Governor at the time openly supported gay rights on this issue while it was still before the courts and no decision was made. Dena stated he didnt want to say anything about an issue before the courts, which is hogwash, as that is the primary time when a politician must show leadership. Same thing with Progressive Property tax. The version that Dean supported and was passed was not progressive at all, and the Vermont Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional leaving Dean stuck again having to pass legislation he did not support but was forced into. In many other cases, such as controlling the cost of prescription drugs, metadone treatment, Medical marijuana, Dean vetoed progressive legislation that was passed by the legislature, and supported by the public.In many other areas, Dean's fiscal conservatism over-rode all other concerns. This is not to state that balancing the budget is a bad thing, but there is a conservative way to do so, and a progressive weay to do so. Dean always chose the fiscal course that closely remembles the philosophy held bty republicans. And the budget could have beenas easily balanced using progressive fiscal ideas.

The one thing that you can be sure of with Kerry is that the stance he is taking as presidential candidate is the same as he has held as Senator. And that has been declared as the most liberal by liberal organizations, as well as attacked by conservative organizations. Both those who support liberalism and progressive politics and those who hate it have openly declared Kerry as the most liberal elected official in Washington, and the most liberal of all of the candidates.
Kerry also has the most active record of voting against the DLC and centrist political platorm of all the candidates, and all members of the Senate. Kucinich has more frequently voted in line with the centrist platform than Kerry has.

[rucky]

21. Au Contraire

if Nader really is pushing 6% and Kerry's still that tight with Bush, then Bush really does suck more ass than I thought.

It shows you how much of the "swing vote" is liberal, as opposed to those "NASCAR Dads" everybody's got a hard-on about.

Which vote is easier to get? Kerry needs to choose soon. Trouble is, we don't know how many Kerry supporters would go back to Bush. I doubt it would be 6%, not even 2%. What tips me off is all the earlier polls that had "unnamed democrat" beating Bush. Now "Kerry" has just as much clout as "unnamed democrat" since there are few illusions left that anybody else will emerge in the position of Bush-slayer.

In other words, no need to pander to Nader supporters, but there's also no need for Kerry to actively distance himself from the left. There is no swing vote in the center. it's a myth.

[Nicholas_J]

24. Hardly

Every poll in the disputed states now shows Kerry ahead of those states that Bush won by close margins in 2000. Polls in FLorida taken today show Kerry taking a lead on Bush, which would have been unimaginable just a month ago. Nader had his biggest win in Florida in 2000, and his being in the riunning has not prevented Kerry from becoming the leading candidates here.

[WitchWay]

26. How can Nader help?

Nader, in the long run, will help the democratic party. Dems are so ABB, that some of them may go to Nader but in the long run it will be anti-Bush republicans and independents who would never dare vote for a Massachusetts liberal (but are so pissed off at bush) who vote for Nader, on principle. I think that Nader will attack Bush like we could never see Kerry attack Bush. Nader isn't beholden to the special interests that would keep him from attacking Bush.
Of course, Kucinich might still get in at the convention, in which case, Kucinich can directly attack Bush for his policies, issues and special interests himself.