US Citizen who supports Open Government or Continuing Closed Government?

[blm]

Are you a voter supporting now and in November Open Government that is accountable to the people

or

A voter supporting Closed Government that continues to protect secrecy and privilege

[blm]

1. ???? Priorities ????

????

[blm]

2. Priorities

.

[Bongo Prophet]

3. Open government is essential for an open society.

I know we will not get what I want ideally, but I can vote for the least closed among my choices.
Cold comfort, but still keeps us going to the next step in the journey.

[blm]

4. Exactly - I prefer to trust longtime ADVOCATES for open government instead of

those with a record of siding with secrecy and privilege of closed government.

Thanks for responding. It seems that this subject cuts too deeply to the heart of our national identity and our party's soul and causes discomfort to an entire wing of our Democratic party.

[1corona4u]

5. Stupid poll.

There never has been, or ever will be, an open government. Ever. Not even St. Obama will be able to do that.

[Bongo Prophet]

6. There are degrees of openness, and I think we should go towards MORE open. Do you disagree?

Or is it all about Clinton v Obama with you?
No room for a simple basic principle of democracy to be raised.
I almost didn't vote, because I thought it almost too obvious -like "Is counting votes good?"

If that was the question, would you say "if it helped candidate notX, then no!"

How low can one get?
These primaries have warped some people's thinking.

[1corona4u]

7. No, it's about being

realistic. Both candidates aside.

[blm]

11. I dunno, 1c.....I think Biden sides more with open government than closed.

I've heard several of his past speeches where he has been disgusted with the secrecy that has caused alot more problems for our country than it has helped.

[Bongo Prophet]

12. Ok, you have me pegged as unrealistic, even after my two posts which were obviously not

I don't think blm was talking some 100% open Platonic ideal, just that we need MORE openness in our govt.
The Freedom of Information Act made the govt MORE open than it was previous to that.

It happened.
It is real.

Bush has made the govt more secretive, more closed.
That is also real.


You claim to be a REALIST, and imply that I am NOT.
I make a simple claim that we need more transparency.
You have heard of sunshine laws, right?

It's a spectrum, with several dimensions.
When Clinton admin opened records of the Dept of Energy, having to do with decades of experiments on American people, did you think it didn't happen?
Or just that they were not realists, even though it did happen?
This does not make sense to me.

Hell, Bill Clinton RAN on opening up presidential records, JFK records and EVEN UFO records.
How freakin' unrealistic is that?

Really, this is not an honest discussion with you.
Too bad.
I guess I should say "get real"

[1corona4u]

20. I neve said anything about you being a realist.

I said **I** was a realist. Judging by your rant, you have some pent up anger.

I don't know you, and I don't care to either. This was never a 'discussion'. I replied to one thing you said, to me.

Have a nice dramatic life. LOL...

[Bongo Prophet]

22. I see. You drop in to say "Stupid Poll" but don't want discussion. that is consistent.

You were wrong and insulting, but because I respond with facts and evidence, and even try to engage a bit -- I have anger issues. got it.
Imagine me trying to have a discussion on a discussion board.

WE are finished, I agree.
Different goals,
and different realities, it is clear.

[Bongo Prophet]

15. John Edwards is another unrealistic guy.

Edwards Says Transparency Will Restore Trust

Tells Sunshine Campaign Says He Will Set New Standards for Openness

Former Sen. John Edwards (D-N.C.), a Democrat seeking the presidency, chided the Bush administration for building "a culture of secrecy that dishonors America's democratic principles of government openness and accountability.

Rather than answering each Sunshine Campaign Survey question, Edwards responded with a series of topical statements on a handful of issues. "As president," he wrote in part, "I will work to restore Americans' trust in their government by creating a transparent government."

Edwards also said he would establish an e-government system of "dynamic databases to help Americans track government spending, lobbying and campaign contributions as well as new interfaces for citizens to comment on pending bills and regulations."


Although Edwards did not address survey questions on topics such as classification, cameras in courtrooms or presidential records, he did pledge to rescind the Ashcroft memo limiting release of government information and to reduce the Freedom of Information Act request backlog. He also spoke out in defense of federal scientists, pledging that they "will be respected and they will never be censored … or pressured to bend scientific evidence to support an ideological agenda."

[Bongo Prophet]

16. Obama is not a realist, but your "St. Obama" crack leads me to believe you don't care

Obama outlines open government agenda
By Jill R. Aitoro [e-mail] November 20, 2007

In a Silicon Valley address last week, Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama laid out his plans to use technology to increase government transparency, promising online access to federal data and the opportunity for citizens to comment online on pending legislation.

Bush administration officials said such moves would simply expand on initiatives already under way.

Building upon previous promises to free government from undue political and financial influence, Obama's technology and innovation plan would aim to increase transparency through e-government initiatives.

"We will put government data online in universally accessible formats, track federal grants, contracts, earmarks and lobbying contracts, participate in government forums, ask questions in real time, offer suggestions that will be reviewed before decisions are made, and comment on legislation before it is signed," Obama said during a speech at the Google headquarters in Mountain View, Calif. on Nov. 14.

The plan would expand on the 2006 Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act -- co-sponsored by Obama -- which mandates the creation of a user-friendly Web site to track federal spending data. Rule-making agencies would be required to deliberate issues via live feeds on the Internet that would allow citizens to respond to their efforts. Nonemergency legislation would be posted on the White House Web site, where people would be able to review and comment on it for five days before it was signed into law.

Cabinet officials would be required to hold periodic nationwide online town hall meetings to answer questions and discuss issues before their agencies, and such technologies as blogs, wikis and social networking tools would be used to enhance internal, cross-agency, and public communication and information sharing.

"Technology empowers people to come together to change," Obama said. "We have to do more than get our house in order; the opportunity in front of us is bigger than that. Seizing this opportunity is going to depend on more than what the government does and even more than what the technology sector does."

[Bongo Prophet]

17. Jimmy Carter. A fellow NON-realist.

In 1966, Carter sought the Georgia governorship but ran third in the Democratic primary. He immediately began to prepare for another campaign and in 1970 defeated the former governor Carl Sanders in the primary and was elected governor in the November general election. He surprised many Georgians and gained national attention with his inaugural address in 1971, in which he called for an end to racial discrimination. He was viewed by the national press as a forerunner of the more moderate social and racial attitudes emerging in the New South.

His term as governor was marked by the appointment of increased numbers of black citizens to state boards and agencies, and he placed a portrait of the late civil rights leader Martin Luther King, Jr., in the state capitol building, a move that would have been inconceivable in earlier years. He reorganized state government, abolishing some 300 offices, boards, and commissions and consolidating their functions into 22 new agencies. He instituted zero-based budgeting, a system that required state officials theoretically to justify every budget request. He also instituted passage of a "sunshine law" to open government meetings to the public. He added large tracts of wilderness area to the state parks system and pushed for adoption of environmental legislation to protect the state's wild rivers. He supported reinstitution of the death penalty in Georgia, and worked for stiffer sentences for drug violations. State government expenditures rose sharply during his term, and his critics charged that his claims of success, particularly with regard to reorganization of the state government, were exaggerated.

[Bongo Prophet]

18. You really should start with the basics, and think about structural democracy, realist.

History of the Freedom of Information Act, signed by LBJ.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/foialeghistory/legistfoia.htm


Hell, even wiki has a good overview. My wife just laughed when I read this thread to her, and in 5 seconds, she had this info - less time than it takes to create an insulting post...THINK ABOUT THAT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_information_legislation

An interesting fact, Sweden's Freedom of the Press Act of 1766 is thought to be the oldest such law.


Wow, all of these countries live in the same unrealistic reality that I do, some better, some just beginning. But all acknowledging that a govt can be MORE or LESS open. And finally, that SOME think more open is GOOD. I am in good company, with blm and millions of others.

Some countries with existing legislation
o 1.1 Albania
o 1.2 Armenia
o 1.3 Australia
o 1.4 Belgium
o 1.5 Belize
o 1.6 Bosnia and Herzegovina
o 1.7 Bulgaria
o 1.8 Canada
o 1.9 Chile
o 1.10 Colombia
o 1.11 Croatia
o 1.12 Czech Republic
o 1.13 Denmark
o 1.14 Dominican Republic
o 1.15 Ecuador
o 1.16 Estonia
o 1.17 European Union
o 1.18 Finland
o 1.19 France
o 1.20 Georgia
o 1.21 Germany
o 1.22 Greece
o 1.23 Hong Kong
o 1.24 Hungary
o 1.25 Iceland
o 1.26 India
o 1.27 Ireland
o 1.28 Israel
o 1.29 Italy
o 1.30 Jamaica
o 1.31 Japan
o 1.32 Latvia
o 1.33 Macedonia
o 1.34 Mexico
o 1.35 Montenegro
o 1.36 Netherlands
o 1.37 New Zealand
o 1.38 Norway
o 1.39 Pakistan
o 1.40 Paraguay
o 1.41 Poland
o 1.42 Republic of Moldova
o 1.43 Romania
o 1.44 Serbia
o 1.45 Slovenia
o 1.46 South Africa
o 1.47 South Korea
o 1.48 Sweden
o 1.49 Thailand
o 1.50 Trinidad and Tobago
o 1.51 Turkey
o 1.52 Ukraine
o 1.53 United Kingdom
o 1.54 United States
o 1.55 Zimbabwe

[1corona4u]

8. dupe

[Bongo Prophet]

13. Hey, don't call me a dupe! Just kidding. ;)

kick

[blm]

10. Exactly. It's about YOUR own view and respect for YOURSELF as a citizen trusted

by their lawmakers and respected by their lawmakers.

[blm]

9. Then think in terms of do you want govt. MORE open to citizens or LESS open

to citizens.

Because despite your smear, this poll SHOULD give you a CLUE as to why you support the candidate you support. It's about YOUR level of concern and RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen, and whether or not YOUR government RESPECTS you enough AS a citizen to trust you with the truth.

[Bongo Prophet]

14. Hillary Clinton says she thinks we should have more open govt. Non-realist.

During her closing campaign rally in New Hampshire, Hillary Clinton spoke of the need for greater government transparency, fully embracing the Internet and blogging.

“I want to put everything on the Internet! I want you to see the budget of every agency. I want you to track everything that goes on in your government — you pay for it, you should know about it!” she said.

And of blogging?

“We should even have a government blogging team where people in the agencies are constantly telling all of you, the taxpayers, the citizens of America, everything that’s going on so that you have up-to-the-minute information about what your government is doing, so that you too can be informed, and hold the government accountable.”

[blm]

19. Yeah - but we already know what Clintons say and what they do while in power are

completely different.


http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

The protection of BushInc throughout the 90s was unforgivable to any open government Democrat.

[Bongo Prophet]

21. Did 'they' open up records from the DOE or not?

Did 'they' declassify other records?

The TRUE answer is YES. Or more to the point, SOME. And not as much as I would like, ESPECIALLY the BCCI and Reagan/Bush records.
You know me, blm, and you know I share your frustration and goals.
I am just being accurate as to the history that I remember.
It is not black and white.

The Human Radiation experiments should be read by ALL citizens.
Those who accuse us of tinfoil hattery almost certainly have NOT.
http://www.hss.energy.gov/healthsafety/ohre/roadmap/index.html
The DOE declassification revealed DECADES of govt abuse, condoned or covered up by both parties, even some I respect (to a degree, and that respect went down over this) --- And Bill did this through executive order, so it was HIS CHOICE, and not forced by Congress...

Declassification of Information
The Atomic Energy Act and Executive Order 12958 require the Department of Energy to declassify information when release no longer would pose an undue risk to the common defense and security or damage to national security. The Department's objective is both to enhance the protection of information that truly requires protection and to declassify and release to the public information that no longer requires protection. A rigorous and formal process is followed before deciding whether or not to declassify information. Prime factors considered are: (1) whether publication of the information would jeopardize any U.S. weapon or weapon system, and (2) whether the information would hinder nonproliferation efforts by assisting potential adversaries developing or improving a nuclear weapon capability, producing nuclear weapon materials, or making other military use of nuclear energy.

Declassification provides transparency (i.e., provides sufficient information to the other party to instill confidence in a relationship) which is necessary as the basis for developing the mutual trust needed to conduct successfully any meaningful international negotiations. Declassification is important to conducting meaningful bilateral inspections at current or former nuclear facilities under arms control and reduction agreements, such as the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty. It is also essential for granting inspectors access to facilities as required under the provisions of international safeguards and nonproliferation agreements. That access builds trust and helps to develop mutual confidence among nations, thereby reducing the risk of conflict.

Clinton signed also opened some JFK. NASA, Nazi War crimes and a few others if I recall it all correctly.
I HAVE to be honest with myself on these things, blm. If it happened, it happened - hell, one of the reasons I CARE so much is out of respect for history, in addition to the democratic ideals. One could say accurate history greatly helps an open society to exist. It is a matter of both principle and good methodology, especially in the dark areas of which we speak, BCCI and the rest.

So, it is not really a matter of forgiveness to me - his choice not to allow the release for history's sake, much less justice, allowed the Bush/Cheney Restoration of evil to grab power - and that is such a betrayal that it does not matter if he is forgiven. It just is. Existing outside the scope of redemption, it is history. And sometimes that is all one is left with after such evil. A full accounting of those years is the LEAST we deserve.

Would Hillary Clinton do the same as Bill? I pause for laughter here...but one could think wistfully of her digging up some dirt, since she is supposedly so ruthless. An unlikely, but possible fantasy for some. But most don't even seem to care about these things. They don't even know what they are missing. How's that for irony?

In my research, it seems Obama is likely to prefer "united instead of divided" just like clinton said, despite his interest in open gov. I hope I am wrong on this, but I honestly don't know. The thought of Barack and Kerry discussing these things is intriguing as hell. Maybe a late night viewing. Finding criminal evidence does carry legal responsibilities, right?

But I am a poor artist, not a legal scholar.
And I have been told I am not teh realist. ;)

[blm]

23. heh...mr blm is an artist....

I do believe the release of SOME documents is for the cover that ANY Democrat would have needed in the 90s, especially as they really deep-sixed the biggest issues of the day that actually ended up effecting our FUTURE in the worst ways imaginable.

[Bongo Prophet]

24. I can't say that I know motives, just observable patterns of behavior

The release of the atomic experiments was a huge deal - one that shatters MUCH of cold war experimentation on US citizens.
So really, if it were just "cover" I don't think that would have ever happened.
Opening some records sure, but not stuff covered up by Presidents as far back as Truman (IIRC)
more likely to me that he just draws his line at a certain place, and that tends on the side of favoring Stephens, Poppy and all the gang. Now what that means in terms of "arrangements" -- well, back to that familiar "I don't know" position.

Oh, how it wish it were not so.

Off to deal with my anger issues.
I appreciate your work, and glad to have kicked the thread a bit.
Maybe a few people saw it before sinking into the muck of GDP, the kiddie pool of DU.