Here is our problem in a nutshell.

[Pale Blue Dot]

I just conducted an experiment in which I hid all of the threads on the front page of this forum that did not have to do with the issues facing America today. That means that after I was done I could not see any threads about endorsements, polls, or the horserace. I also ignored any snarky attack threads that focused on anything other than the issues.

There were 8 threads left. 8. And a couple of those were marginal.

Of the 8 that were left, only 2 were positive; in other words, a supporter posting about where his/her candidate stood on the issues. The rest were negative; they were attacks on the other candidate's stand on the issues without a mention of where the supporter's candidate stands.

One of the most common, and justified, criticisms of the MSM here on DU is that they focus almost exclusively on the horse race and not on the issues. However, it seems that the majority of posters in this forum, when given a perfect opportunity to talk about the issues with like-minded people, will do instead exactly what the MSM does.

There could be many reasons for this. My theory, and it is just a theory, is that in reality there is not very much difference between our two remaining candidates. Supporters of each candidate, without anything substantial to debate about on the issues, are forced to focus negatively on things that don't really matter at all, like snubs and tears. Without being able to tout positions on the issues that are bold and different, supporters instead taunt the opposition using the latest poll numbers and endorsements.

There will be competing theories as to why DU has been reduced to a pale copy of the MSM and I welcome them. But it is undeniable that is has become a pale copy of the MSM. If we are going to have any influence, or are going to make any real changes, we have to be the ideals that we endorse. Are we going to be a place to talk about the real issues, or are we going to be CNNlite?

[radfringe]

1. there is not very much difference between our two remaining candidates

hit the nail on the head

the other thing playing in the background is the FEAR FACTOR. After 8 years of republic bushit, people are scared to death of having at least another 4 more years of the same bushit

on edit: that's why you read so much about ELECTABILITY as opposed to the BEST candidate for the country, and the panic in the McCain will beat Hillary... not to ramp up the fear, but the same polls also showing McCain beating Obama, Edwards, Kucinich etc.

as an aside - if you think these primary wars are bad, wait until the greenies and naderites show up..you ain't seen nuttin' yet

[TZ]

2. K+R n/t

[Pale Blue Dot]

4. ...

I don't need your pity. :rofl:

:D

[AlCzervik]

3. rec'd, good thread.

[Benhurst]

5. ...

Recommended :kick: #5

[tandot]

6. Great Post. K & R

[Pale Blue Dot]

7. Kick for other opinions.

I'm surprised at both the 18 recommendations and the lack of comments.

[Control-Z]

8. I could not agree more.

I tried to start a discussion thread on the merits of each candidate. Things they've done. Projects they've worked on. Their accomplishments. Hoping for a positive thread where we could compare and discuss honest differences. I got scolded (for not doing my own homework) before the thread died.

When I've asked questions that should have answers (but that I've been unable to find on the internet), again I've been scolded, attacked, humored or ignored. Never just a respectable straight answer.

It's kind of scary. I wonder how many opinions here really are based subconsciously on what is heard from the MSM?

[avrdream]

9. Quite a few, I suspect.

I have been e-mailing with my brother in California this week and it is interesting to hear him spouting off the MSM stuff about all the candidates. He can't vote (never got his citizenship) but is still interested enough to read the MSM stuff but not enough to dig deeper.

I came to DU when I wanted to see that digger deeping. It was pretty damned good here when I started lurking. The OP is right and I have generally avoided this forum recently but I still come here faithfully each day to see if SOMEONE has started talking about real issues again. Alas, we will have to wait til primary season is fully over.

[truedelphi]

22. Society on all levels is very negative.

Jobs are in short supply.

Prices are high.

Survival is threatened for so many people on so many levels.

When a populace is attacked again and again, the individuals of that populace will go on the attack.

It offers them the sense of power. They can't pay their mortgage, there is no hope of advancing in the job market, but they still have the power via the internet to tell you, "DO your homework, dammit!"

I too have made OP's that got attacked. On such (non-attackable, or so I thought) issues as greener automobiles. I thought most people who had negatives about the issue would also consider that greener cars are still in their infancy (Shouldn't be, but the stonewalling of the major car companies has made it so.)

It is one thing for people to say, "Here's a downside." It's another to say, "You idiot. A greener car will still take resources to build."

But maybe those responses helped them cope with a sick kid whose medication means Mom or Dad won't eat tomorrow.

[Andrea]

28. Very sad, but very true

Thank you for adding to the dialog.

[Hart2008]

10. K & R

[TheDoorbellRang]

11. Sad, but true

I wasn't here for the last primary season, but the ominous rumblings from older DUers about what to expect were all the warning I had. I've never used the ignore feature before this past month, but now I have dozens on ignore, simply because I don't want to waste time seeing what they don't have to say. I haven't been able to get as much info from DU as I have in the past, simply from the flood of pointless bickering that has swelled to fill the greatest page. It's been quite disheartening.

CNNlite is an apt term to describe what we've been seeing. K&R

[Martin Eden]

12. Thank you for that well-deserved slap in the face.

Sometimes we need posts like yours to wake us up and get us re-focused on what is truly important.

[sniffa]

13. GIANTS ARE GOING DOWN

Good thread by the way. :thumbsup:

[HCE SuiGeneris]

14. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN FOR THE PATS

And yes, an excellent thread. :hi:

[Honeycombe8]

15. Politics is not just about issues. You been voting very long?

Part of politics is about issues. The other parts are about:
charisma and likeability of the candidate...
the money the candidate has to run a campaign...
the electability of the candidate...
the speaking skills and particularly persuasive speaking skills of the candidate...
whether the candidate seems as if s/he looks the part of the office...
how much in common the candidate has with those whose votes s/he wants...
and anything else each voter thinks is important about the candidate.

That is what politics is all about. I've been around for awhile and hail from Louisiana. If anyone has seen what politiking is about, it's someone from Louisiana.

People don't vote for someone who believes exactly as they do on each and every issue. They vote, first and foremost, for someone in the party they belong to, who they like, and who they think can win in the general election.

All the Dems are pretty close on the issues (at least that's what they SAY), just like all the Repubs in a primary claim to be the similar in the issues.

[rosesaylavee]

16. For reasonable threads about the candidates

I usually seek out H20Man's posts.

I do miss the information I used to be able to get here at DU. I hope it does return to itself soon.

[yoyossarian]

17. Maybe if we had one viable candidate...

My problem in a nutshell: I don't think America is ready for a woman president OR a black president; I think MOST of America is a helluva lot dumber than most of you are giving 'em credit for.



Intelligence is the exception rather than the rule these days... what I don't get is, how can so many of us be forgetting this?
And if I'm right (and I hope I'm not, but I fear I am), if MOST of America is going to revert to their more primitive racist and fear-driven machismo-enchanted selves, then the Reeps have us EXACTLY where they want us...

I wish I could believe we'd gotten there... but people are stressed these days, and it's amazing how thin that veneer of civilization actually is with many...

So where is hope? Y'got me...
Maybe if Oprah ran? Would that do it? I dunno...

But hell, I'll be amazed if we even SEE another election in America...

T-shirts, mugs, buttons n' cards at http://cafepress.com/laughcity">Laugh City

http://steponnopets.com/peo">President Evil Online has risen from the grave!

[balantz]

18. I wish Edwards was still in.

He was different.

[MuseRider]

19. Good thread.

I took all the primary stuff off the latest page and was stunned at how slowly DU moved. Then I took everyone off ignore because I rarely see them anywhere but in GD-primary anyway and I do not go there. Funny how most of them are still hanging there but no where else. At least with the ability to block GD-primary from the latest page I don't have to deal with all that stupidity.

[Hydra]

20. You wanna know an ugly truth about DU?

Whenever I post something to get the ball rolling on fixing an issue, it drops like a rock. This used to surprise me until I figured out why.

Most DU'ers don't care.

Most DU'ers come here to get outraged and to be keyboard warriors. The vast majority would rather do that, then go out and fix things that are wrong. Another selection of DU(much in need of tombstoning, IMO) sincerely believes that nothing is wrong in the American Empire, and why are people liek me trying to make things up about starving people who can't get work that pays a living wage, let alone what their skills merit.

Because of such people, efforts I put out to fight poverty, child abuse and lack of education get blunted before the republicans even have to step in.

If it all sounds like it's cheerleading on DU, that's probably because the people I mentioned are loudest, most prolific, etc., while others who have important things to say get ignored...because it's "boring" to talk about real issues.

[truedelphi]

23. Well the average Democrat is now a Republican

I grew up in a Republican household and noticed that a lot of things my parents thought were so, just weren't.

Meanwhile most of my childhood friends grew up in Democratic households.

JFK and Bobby and Martin were worshipped.

But now those youngsters have grown up and due to inheriting their mommy and daddy's businesses, they got into the business of being executives and making more and more money.

I have watched as companies that employed people for decades get signed over into bankruptcy the moment that things are tough for that company. And my friends and their family benefit from the Golden Parachutes and too bad if the workers lose the pensions they have paid into for thirty -five years. Yet these executives still consider themselves Democrats.

So part of why people aboard this message board put out that it "just ain't so that things are as bad as they are" is that when you participate in this type of destructive behavior, then you have to go into denial about how badly you have behaved. Otherwise you can't sleep at night, can you?.

(My remarks explain how Senator Clinton, who is not a whit bit of different from Richard Nixon in policy, can be our Democratic Party's anointed one!)

[Andrea]

29. You are just full of good points!

I heard a poli sci professor in '96 point out that if Nixon were alive then, he would have to be a Dem because he was too far left to be a Republican. The Republicans wouldn't accept him. The whole country has moved more and more to the right. It has only become worse since '96. Heck, I still think of myself as a moderate because my main issues are the rule of law and being true to the constitution. Nowadays, that makes me an extremist.

[Hydra]

31. Being for rule of law is poisonous in this day and age

Which really says something about where we are as a nation.

Hell, I'm a damned heretic for suggesting that happy and well paid workers make a good economy, and that food, water, shelter and good medical care should be STANDARD, rather than only for the people who have the cash for it.

[Andrea]

33. Oh my gosh

With opinions like that, you must be a communist! Horrors! :-)

[Hydra]

34. "Commie Pinko Bastard" I believe is the correct term

:evilgrin:

I love how the churches support this rightward expansion back into the dark ages. I always told people that wasn't a fluke. Organized religion works hand in glove with tyranny.

What ever happened to Jesus as more than a get out of jail free card?

[no name no slogan]

32. Today's "centrist" Democrats == 1970s Republicans

It's a sad day when our top two contenders' platforms sound more like Nixon than McGovern. Clinton/Obama's "universal health care" plans are both straight out of Dick Nixon's 1974 playbook.

Sure, they've got the proper rhetoric down, but on a policy level, what they're pushing isn't much further left than that of Rockefeller. Or Eisenhower.

Maybe some day it'll come back leftward.

[truedelphi]

35. I didn't know of thatcitation. I have been saying

On DU if someone can offer me one substantive difference between Nixon And Sen Clinton, I'd consider voting for her.

So far there haven't been any takers.

[Andrea]

21. Very good point

I think several things contribute to this. As you said, Clinton and Obama are very similar to each other. As others have said, fear is an issue. People are so desperate to get rid of Bush that they have accelerated and intensified this whole process. Also, although we seek out better sources for our news, we aren't completely shut off from the MSM (most of us anyway), so it does have some influence here, although less than among most people.

Another thing I think contributes to this is that we here at DU are pretty similar in where we stand on issues. We have variations and we would probably rank the issues in different orders of importance, but we mostly all agree on wanting to restore checks and balances and the rule of law, ending the war, ending cronyism, addressing poverty, fixing our economy, ending racism and sexism, promoting science, protecting the right to choose, limiting the influence of corporations, driving out corruption and a host of other issues. And we pretty much believe that one absolutely necessary requirement to achieve these goals is to drive the Republicans out. So, we don't have much to argue about on the issues. Our disagreements are mostly about how best to achieve those goals.

I think it would probably be a good idea if we tried to have more civil discussion about how to achieve those goals. Naturally, one aspect of that is who we think we should vote for, but vague, groundless attacks have no place in that.

Also, it would clearly be beneficial if we devoted more mental energy to thinking outside the box. How can we influence the party as a whole to move beyond factional disagreements and to make addressing the issues paramount? How can we make elections more fair? Do we think the script laid out for us by the MSM is immutable? Does it have to come down to Clinton or Obama v. McCain, or can we still get a better candidate on our side? How can we best counter Republican attacks? How can we convince voters who are on the fence or planning to vote Republican to change their minds? How can we get the MSM to look at the actual issues more than the horse race? How can we reduce the control corporations exert over our society?

[truedelphi]

24. Yet all Democrats are not the same.

Some Dems, even Dems on this board, don't believe things area as bad economically as they are.

And many Democrats in Ohio were not at all interested in thinking that maybe something was weird about the election of November 2004. Some were, some weren't.

It boils down to a person's experiences, a person's need for denial, and whether or not you believe in the M$M.

[2rth2pwr]

25. It's the same old story, people say they want educational shows

on tv, but they watch American Idol. People say they hate the coverage of Britney and Paris, but they buy the magazine and watch the shows that feature them.

People say they just want to compare the candidates on the issues, but we elect based on who we are comfortable with.

My take on the elections is I don't trust any candidates platform. I have never seen one implemented and they are focus grouped to death.

[CrispyQ]

26. DU is almost unreadable right now.

On the bright side, it has freed up lots of time for me to visit other sites & get things done around the house.

[Armstead]

27. I tried posting two threads that were issue oriented and they've sank like stones

Whether or not people agreed with them is immaterial.

I suppose if I'd posted Obama wears make up at home they'd have survived.

But talking about fundamental economic underpinnings, or what some of the substantial dynamics of the primaries represent is the kiss of death. So.....

Hillary wears Army Boots.

[mudesi]

30. Admins need to give mods more freedom, mods need to raise the bar

The problem is that there just isn't enough locking and deleting of threads. The enforcers need to get a lot tougher in my opinion, and people need to grow more of a backbone when it comes to their threads/posts being deleted.

I hear the new DU upgrade is going to have a negative recommend feature, though, so that might help...