Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

I can't think of a good title for this, so please just read it

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:40 PM
Original message
I can't think of a good title for this, so please just read it
"WHY ARE YOU PROTESTING?"

"Because ever since I was a baby crawling around the TV set I've been suckered, lied to and propagandized. The kind of psychological abuse I've been subjected to may not be as bad as sexual abuse but, believe me, it leaves lifelong scars nonetheless. I feel empty, soulless, mindfucked...and now it's payback time."

- Unattributed quote from February edition of Adbusters Magazine

----------


I have no standing to make pleas for civility on this forum anymore. I've blown that several times over, to the point that apologies for that behavior no longer make the grade. Fair enough. I suppose the best I can do is lay a few things out and see where the day takes us.

There are a bunch of threads today about whining, about castigating people who seem to want Bush to beat Kerry, about people who refuse to 'get behind the nominee' who isn't actually the nominee yet, but will be barring an assassin's bullet or some other insane twist of fate. As I have barfed up more than a few threads about that recently, I completely understand the motivation behind them. That's what I want to talk about.

I direct this to the bitter-enders, to the people who righteously supported candidates who are now no longer in the race. This is not a broad-brush statement, because you know who you are, and you are a relatively small group. You absorbed tremendous amounts of abuse advocating for your candidate, and if the truth be fully told, you heaped a great deal of abuse upon others in the process. That, more than anything I think, is why you refuse to do much of anything beyond continue the attack and the defense.

I'll tell you why you make me angry, why I and others sometimes freak out and post threads that bait you and attack you. We have all lived through the last three years. We are now, at last, into the endgame. The truth is that your candidate, no matter who they may be, would no more be a savior than the guy who appears to have the thing locked up. Yes, even Kucinich, who would have to work with a partisan Congress, and obstructionist Pentagon, an adversarial court and an evenly divided nation. All his progressive street cred would get left at the Oval Office door on his first day, and he would begin the process of making compromise after compromise to get something done.

Your guy was no saint, no savior, no great hope for the huddled masses. Your guy was a politician, with good votes and bad votes. You make me angry because you refuse to accept this all too often, and you go out of your way to beat others over the head with the alleged righteousness of your slighted hero. That ain't the way it is. That is as far from truth as the idea that one crew of candidate supporters have been crueler than other crews. Karma is a wheel, and it goes all the way around, and every one of us own a portion of it.

You're not a victim. You became part of the American political process, and for a variety of reasons that cannot be quantified by the words 'conspiracy' or 'dumb voters' or 'sheeple' or 'DLC' or 'Media,' the person you chose as a standard-bearer in this process lost. You're not a victim if you got bruised and beat up here because, I'll warrant, you drew as much blood as you lost over the last several months. I was here. I remember. The knifework was universal, and I was as much a part of it as you were. You're not a victim, so don't act like one.

John Kerry is going to be the nominee, and if I have anything to say about it, he is going to be the President. He is far, far from perfect. He has cast several wretched votes. In a perfect world, a perfect America, things would be different. They aren't...and part of the project here is to work towards changing that. It is a lifetime project.

At the end of the day, though, we stand together on much that we have managed to forget. We all share the sense of anger and frustration captured by the quote I used above. We all know the score, and it stands against us. If you want to remain a bitter-ender for whatever reasons, don't let me or anyone else stop you. Don't pretend that threads here which stand against you influence your ultimate political decisions, and don't threaten people with that, because it's just dumb...but don't stop if that's the cut of your jib. It is your right to do so.

Just remember that we are far more similar than different. When you find yourself screaming in rage at someone who agrees with you on 95% of the issues, you or they may just be a zealot. We've had far too much zealotry here, and in our government.

There are greater things afoot than your lost candidate, or someone else's winning one. The sooner we all remember that, the better off we will be. We face a determined, unified, well-funded foe who holds the high ground on all fronts. I plan on charging that high ground under the Kerry banner. If you want to stay behind, that is your choice. You'll still be welcomed to the victory party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Good Post
:thumbsup:

DTH
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Double that.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
XanaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you.
"John Kerry is going to be the nominee, and if I have anything to say about it, he is going to be the President."

Beautiful words to read.

Time to start stomping The Chimp.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bill Maher had it right last night on Larry King.
He said "The love for Kerry is really hate for Bush". And that is how I feel, I'm not that crazy about Kerry but I will support and vote for him to get Bush's* sorry ass out of the White House!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
70. Delete please.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 04:18 PM by Cleita
eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
troublemaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
98. For Now
I expect people (myself included) to warm up more to Kerry when the Bush assholes start demonizing him. I can't help it... it's human nature to give the benefit of the doubt to almost anything that crew attacks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
122. Bill Maher doesn't speak for me, that's for sure.

I wanted Kerry to be President long before I ever heard of George W. Bush.


But if that is a reason for someone to vote for him, it's sufficient.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. You always say it best.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. ...except when I don't
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. but you usually do...
:thumbsup: :hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. See, I told you not to lay low. You bring a lot to the table.
I have made similar remarks, but I guess, in a more incendiary manner.

I've been told that I don't suffer fools gladly, and sometimes that includes myself.

Thanks for putting my feelings into a little more diplomatic terminology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Sometimes?
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. It is a wise man who isn't blind to his own faults.
Wiser men try to correct them.

Right now I'm a wise man, working on being wiser.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
42. has it occurred to you that what they seek is attention?
what they miss is the battle?
that without an enemy the battle sours?
that if we just gave them the ground the could post about the glory days until that too soured?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. You had my attention when you said "Please." But, then you lost it with
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 02:51 PM by KoKo01
your Rumsferatu twist of his use of "Dead Enders" (Iraqi Bush Resisters) with calling folks here "Bitter Enders."

I don't know who you're talking about "twisting knives" and whatever but most DU'ers who have been here awhile were NOT participating in the kind of Candidate tactic you are referring to in this "Part III" lecture.

That's it... Edited: typos.

On Edit, again. It seems to me that YOU are the "Bitter Ender." For whatever reason you and others keep this lecturing up, I hope it sooths your deamons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I just edited my post. Go back and read the last sentence. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Small room. One door.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Repetition is the sign of genius.......or.....
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. ...Koko...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. Cease fire!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
72. ROFL! Pot shots over the Bunker! That's all! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #72
86. I knew there was pot involved here somewhere
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MaineDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not much for me to add, Will
You'll get crap for this, too, I assume. :eyes:

Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. Good stuff
It still seems to be directed at Deaniacs and it seems to me that it ain't just Deaniacs that aren't happy about Kerry. Note, I'm supporting Kerry now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. two things
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 03:04 PM by indigo32
mostly a good post...

It's obvious that none of these guys are the second coming, no matter how carried away we get about it. In some ways we in the Dean camp felt it was about more than the candidate...but in the end it is about the election (at least for now). There are many options for moving forward with our other goals.

I feel compelled to remind you though... that while pain was dealt from all camps...there were plenty of individuals... myself included, whom did not participate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
60. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
83. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #83
146. WOW! I don't think I've ever seen a whole sub-thread deleted en masse
before. Is this a first?

Obviously, I don't know what was said, or who was saying it, but it must have been something to see.

Always something new and fun here on DU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. The link is a good read, CWebster. There was another article about
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 03:06 PM by KoKo01
needing to keep Kerry "on his game" because he can fade out. It was an article talking about how he does his best when he has an opponent. I dont know if it was linked from Josh Marshall or Boston Globe. But, it pretty much said the same thing.

Kerry will be a much better candidate for having someone prodding. Most of us do better when we have some stimulation to keep us on our toes.

I think Pitt and the others are missing all of this. But, then they don't listen they just take out their own angst on those of us moving forward with our eyes on Getting Bush Out, but also making our Democratic Party stronger.

I don't know why we bother answering them, really. Maybe because we are trying to get them to open their minds to other possiblities than "The GAME!"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
74. I got to jump in here
"I think Pitt and the others are missing all of this. But, then they don't listen they just take out their own angst on those of us moving forward with our eyes on Getting Bush Out, but also making our Democratic Party stronger"...with all due respect, I disagree and here's why:

I posted a thread today talking about the ads Bush is airing today--hell, it's all over the news today--and what few posts I got. No participation. No wondering. No talking points to make me, as well, as I'm sure many others, REASSURED that we will get through these 8 months of Bush's smear ads. Not much at all. Sad, because I had Bush as a governor --lived in Texas for 10 years until a few months ago--and I can tell you this group will eat your ass alive. They KNOW how to smear because that's all they have. Make no mistake--the group--is Rove, Hughes, and all these rest of those pompous asses just waiting in the wings to slap their smear ads all over our TV screens. What threads did I see the mosts posts on the "I'm sad my guy didn't win," posts. Well, Kerry wasn't my first choice either, nor my second, nor my third, but he's who we have to help us muddle through this and from what I've seen and heard he IS a fighter...that's all I need, 'cause that's WHAT we need.

Today's ads ain't nothin'...just wait...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. Okay, I back this.
There's a Jimmy Breslin quote (which I hope I'm getting right): "No one ever reaches the White House in a state of grace."

I don't want a perfectly honest man for President. He won't survive. Sometimes an elegant waffle is the best choice.

Kerry is going to have the Augean stables to clean up. There is nothing BushCo hasn't messed with, stolen, or destroyed.

We aren't going to get Utopia. We'll be lucky if we find America under the mess.

And we won't begin to know how really bad it is until we get in there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
21. This will come as a shock
but I agree with this message Will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Good, 'cause I was gonna slap you around if you didn't.
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. lol
:spank:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
22. May I suggest...
That threads like this serve only to stir up bad feelings and actually creates bigger divisions rather than heal raw wounds.

We are adults and capable of making our own decisions, expressing our opinions, and either accepting or ignoring the views of others without self-imploding.

Most people don't like to be lectured to. Your intention may not be to lecture, but I know some will interpret it as such.

My 2 cents.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. 'Some' will interpret a rainstorm as urine
I can only do my best.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. well considering yesterday
that you issued an apology on the very same topic but today seem to have reversed yourself it's no wonder that some feel wet not with a warm spring shower but end up revoltingly drenched with bodily fluids (using your political golden shower analogy).

Sometimes it's better just to let an argument end without trying to get the last word in.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The apology was genuine
because my tactics and language sucked. The point to be made remains. It isn't a matter of the 'last word.'
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. jeezus will...climb off the cross already
it takes two to tango. just drop the lectures and let the few
scab-pickers have at it, in the corner. the vaste majority of us will heal much quicker that way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
79. LOL
"jeezus will...climb off the cross already"

The Passion of Will? LOL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #79
92. my bad....poor coice of words. climb down off the soap box
is what i meant to say. with all the christ talk lately i have crosses on the brain.

sorry will....soapbox...not cross.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
61. Hey, don't twist my tag line!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
27. As Lee Ioccoca once said "Either lead, follow or get out of the way".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
30. Oh, horse feathers.
Despite a few reasonable points, the tone of this is very annoying. As usual, you appoint yourself high priest of the parish. You presume to mete out judgements as to who is a "bitter-ender," when the right time is for everyone to stop fighting, & to toss out numbers like "95%" as representing everyone's true level of agreement with Kerry.

I promise you, I don't agree any 95% with Kerry. My problems with him are far more substantial than "several wretched votes." I'm not at all sure that we're all "more similar than different," either.

Generally - a self-important pile of malarkey.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Who said you agree with Kerry, or should?
I think you agree with 95% of DUers. As for 'preaching,' well, it's a forum where people can post opinions. I could just as easily accuse you of preachery for your post. That would be cheese, though. Pure cheese.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. If it annoyed
then it must be good

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Deansspecialinterest Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. I always love that line of reasoning
Maybe that is how some people manage to see Bush as a good leader.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. I like it too, for other reasons
it reveals much about a person's intellect.

:toast:

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Thank you.
.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. "Generally - a self-important pile of malarkey."
:-)

good one
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BruinAlum Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. Great Post. I agree 100%
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. Personally, I'll be glad when the new rules take effect....
....whatever they may be. Godspeed, Skinner!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Let's pray for today - it's getting sloppy in the forum!
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 03:15 PM by molly
people are crying - people are angry - people are pleading!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. One more time around:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. I think you provided the perfect reply to this
some time ago:

I can't wait to watch people like you get turned to ash by what is coming at you in the general election. You're pathetic, unable to recognize good press and interesting allies when you see them, and you are going to get laid waste. Win or lose, you are in for a rough road, and I'm going to laugh my ass off watching you. Pathetic. Totally pathetic.

We know how you really feel Will. You can stop with your failed efforts at being conciliatory because you cannot cross bridges you've burned.

Most Deanies will vote for Kerry (after self-medicating~~heavily) but won't lift a finger to help him. We're going to work for candidates in other races. Not enough for you? To quote your idol "Get over it". The masses love Kerry? Great, then you won't be needing the efforts of us sub-human Deanies whose misery you looked forward to with great anticipation.

You made your bed Billy.....

Julie



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. "You made your bed Billy....."
...and find it very comfortable. Enjoy the dust-bunnies. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #50
78. No dust bunnies for me
you must be thinking of those who view you favorably enough to go anywhere near your bed, much less under it.

I understand and forgive you your confusion.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
43. Too little, too late
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 03:19 PM by KaraokeKarlton
There is deep bitterness on this site, and there's nothing superficial about it. Dean supporters warned people over and over again about the danger of calling us cultists, comparing our candidate to Hitler and making all those "koolaid" comments (I just got a couple of those again over the last 24 hours). We were all told "it's just the primaries, this is normal", but no, it's not normal. It's not normal or okay to repeatedly and relentlessly attack the voters who support any given candidate. And the claim that everyone was attacked and insulted, that's just untrue. I NEVER saw the supporters of any other candidate called cultists, compared to Nazis, told they were stupid and didn't know the "real" Howard Dean. The attacks were personal, and that's why there is so much division and bitterness. Even now, there are some Kerry supporters who are being complete and utter assholes to those grieving. They were that way from the second the exit polls were coming out and even moreso when Edwards dropped out. How the hell can you expect people who are still being insulted to ever want to support your guy? Before any of you make posts like this you had ought to start talking to the individuals on DU who are gleefully pouring salt in the wounds of the supporters of other candidates.

I'm not a Democrat, I'm an Independent, so I feel absolutely no loyalty to any party. I can't stand Bush, but I can't stand Kerry either. I made it clear from the get go that I would not support Kerry if he were the nominee. The only way I would even remotely consider changing my mind would be if Dean agreed to be his running mate, and I don't see either Kerry asking or Dean accepting. Even then I'm not sure I could vote for Kerry. I won't be voting for Bush either, so anyone feeling compelled to imply that I'm a Republican or freeper can bite my ass. Okay, so it's pretty obvious that nothing can be said to change my mind, but there ARE things that could be done to change the mind of others...and reining in the shitty behavior of a few Kerry supporters would be the proper place to start.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
littlejoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
65. I agree that there is no point trying to get on some people's good
side on this forum. But that is what "burying the hatchet" is all about; putting aside hard feelings and differences and working for the common good now.

One observation, though. I don't put much stock in people whose vote or support is swayed by the actions of any candidate's supporters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #43
75. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #75
101. At least they'll have
health care coverage, a decent state economy, a balanced state budget even in these difficult economic times, civil rights/liberties denied to Americans in other states, and some damn fine elected officials.

Vermont/Deanie World doesn't sound half bad to me. :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. Vermont is a great place to live
And if all politicians behaved with the same level of integrity as Vermont politicians do there would be little, if anything, to bitch about. Even the majority of our Republicans are better than a lot of the Washington Insider Democrats. I find it pretty hilarious that so many people rag on Vermont all the time yet those same people supposedly want the rest of the country to embrace the ideals Vermont has long since put into practice. I tend to think it's just jealousy.
:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
80. more like too much too soon
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 05:00 PM by Snivi Yllom
Fewer threads like this and all would be happier.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #80
104. That too...
For those who sincerely dislike Kerry, it's too little too late. For those who don't particularly dislike him, it's too much too soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
132. It's a bit of a microcosm of the Democratic Party, actually.
The party knows our collective balls are in a vise grip - "quit your whining, kids, what are ya gonna do, let b*sh win?"

Not very conducive to progressive stances. In fact, it's tantamount to electoral extortion. We do it the party way, or we get b*sh. Gives them a wonderful catbird seat from which to demand fealty, don't you think?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RogueTrooper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
46. Good Words Will
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. Gosh darn it all Mr Pitt, forget about these pissant supporters !!!
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 03:24 PM by fishnfla
Of other candidates. Right now there is a HUGE story that needs to be told thats right up your alley, re 9/11 as a shrub campaign theme. It is gonna backfire on them,it is happening as we type, think about the myriad implications: from being out of touch, all the way to the GOP convention this summer in NYC. This is a huge failure.

Tailor made for you man, get it! This other stuff here is pure futility, it just doesnt matter

edit inappropriate smiley thing
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indigo32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Good catch fishnfla
that is right up his alley.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. I'm all over it
Watch this space Sunday afternoon. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
49. as one who seems to be farther left than most,
I can only say that I have been honestly searching within myself for avenues of enthusiasm, so that I can continue working toward the goal of giving Bush the pink slip. It's very hard for me to get enthusiastic about Kerry, or about actively campaigning for him. However, I know I must play my part somehow.
This is what I reminded myself of: Kerry's environmental record is as night and day to Bush's.

This morning, I posted a story about Bush adding Giant Sequoias to his "chopping block", just one of literally hundreds of similar stories.

All other issues I have with Kerry aside, I know that our beloved environment will be vastly better off under Kerry.
If a vote for Kerry would save only one Polar Bear, one Giant Sequoia, one coral reef, one river, one lake, one mountain... it is enough reason for me to vote for him. Bush is literally raping the environment. He must be defeated! You can't replace extinct species. You can't replace old growth forests! He is literally destroying our world.

Of course there are many, many other important reasons as well to beat Mr. AWOL, but when I ran this reasoning past my partner who was very seriously considering not voting, I clearly convinced her.

I have been as depressed as anyone else over this primary, but there are still very compelling reasons to vote for the nominee. For me, It's the fact that Kerry has very good record on the environment, that's what gets me through.

I have also decided that since it would be hard for me to campaign for someone I disagree with in so many areas, I can do my bit by relentlessly working to expose Bush. Continuing to educate people on why he needs the pink slip. I guess I could say I will be in attack mode. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
histohoney Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
53. Thanks Friend
We all needed this post to help us focus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
59. I'm gonna lag a little bit longer, thanks, Will.
;-) Love ya dearly, however I still have a little more work to do on behalf of Kucinich. I'll be running the high ground soon enough, just not quite yet.

See the bottom line for me is my conscience- it's telling me exactly what to do. Yeah, Kerry will probably be the nominee "barring an assasin's bullet" and when he actually has the delegates to claim it, I'll work just as hard as you to see him elected. For today, and until I've cast my Primary vote for Kucinich, I guess I'll remain a "bitter-ender" for Kucinich. Baited, I'll bite back, insulted I'll respond with a serious effort at thoughtful rebuttal, get sh*t slung on me and well....I can't be sure of how I'll react. Depends on my mood at the time I suppose.

Both Nominee Kerry and President Kerry are going to have flaming feet as long as I draw breath, and my work now is to make sure of that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #63
93. "But inevitably, it's always about you"
"Will, you are a polarizing figure. You write well, you behave badly. But inevitably, it's always about you. "

Nail hit on head...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #93
145. You have hit the nail right on the head, RetroLounge
Right on the head.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SiobhanClancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #63
129. Your suggestion of therapy....
Perhaps many of us could benefit from therapy,but suggesting it on a message board doesn't seem like it is intended in the spirit of truly wanting to help.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
64. Will, please check this thread....
In which progs and 3rd party folks are actually having an intelligent discussion without the usual rancor. Well, except for 1 poster...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=432864&mesg_id=432864
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #64
108. good thread
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 07:22 PM by devrc243
glad you posted that...just about to give up today on this board. :)

Oh, and that "drive-by" poster has been doing it all day. Perpetual gloomer he is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
saoirse Donating Member (257 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
66. Very well said
Kerry wasn't my first choice, but now he's the only choice.
I'm behind him 100%.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
67. If I say that I totally agree...
do you think someone will call me a groupie again? :)

You are so dead on about this being a lifetime project. This country didn't get into this mess overnight and one election will not fix it. I'm hoping that once people get a little more distance from the primaries and a lot more perspective that they'll see that and help take that first step.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
68. Time to rally round
why? because I was told to..wait...that's also the point of the quote you lead off with.

Yes, Kerry is the nominee. Yes, I will vote for him. Yes, Beating Bush is the MOST important thing in the world right now. But I will not quiet my voice and go back to being marginalized and ignored by "my" party...a party which, by some accounts doesn't even want me included.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. I agree. I am letting the redbaiting and the obnoxiousness
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 04:15 PM by jonnyblitz
bounce off me for now. One thing that annoys the CRAP out of me is a party that is supposed to be of the left trashing leftists that don't shut up and get in line. I will ignore those ASSHOLES for the time being while we deal with the issue at hand which is getting Bush out...:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
youngred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #71
76. Amen Johnny
It's hard to let it bounce off sometimes, but remembering what another 4 years of Bush will do to the world scares me terribly.

When Bush is on his way back to Crawford in tears over his lost millions I will remember though.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
69. War Cry of the Tepids
There's room for lots of people in the Democratic big tent, including people who only tepidly support John Kerry. So let's hear it from them: Yeay, John! At least you're not Bush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
73. May I have some cheese with my whine please?
So William, I hope things have changed for the better for you when you get to be my age, because I have seen nothing in the whole sixty-four years of my existence but the same old, same old war between privilege and need. As a matter of fact it's worse than in even the darkest moments of WWII, which I do remember, although I was very young.

Every election we start to get hope and because of the status quo our hopes are dashed and we are forced to accept more status quo before that even disappears into history.

So that's all I have to say right now. I shall go to my corner quietly with my plateful of foul smelling cheese and whine some more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. At least your generation had Social Security
to look foward to. With the way things are going now most of us here will be living in cardboard boxes by the time we retire:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #77
82. True and our generation is trying to fight it but
if you young people don't start fighting for your SS and Medicare rights, too, it will be gone before your time comes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
81. I will vote for the man
but money is tight. I value retiring my Republican Congressman more than giving money to Kerry. So if Capri Cafaro looks like she is able to do that, she will be a higher priority for me. If Dean had gotten the nod, I would probably believe differently. Frankly, there was rancor on both sides but the insanely bitter tone of some Kerry supporters is out of control. You people won. It is your job to get people to want to work for Kerry. Frankly, I would rather not show up at a call center for Kerry given the type of people I think would be populating it given what I have seen here. I don't think that is irrational. Life is too short to deal with abuse and abuse is what some Kerry supporters always dish out to Dean supporters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GumboYaYa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
84. I could give a rat's ass about a few people on an
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 05:32 PM by GumboYaYa
internet message board who can't give up the primary fight. Anyone who gets bogged down in the primaries either in support of the winner or undying loyalty for a loser needs to gain some political perspective. The candidates in the primaries have differences, but they are practically two sides of the same coin when compared to the BFEE.

I was the head of Young Democrats for Tsongas at LSU, but I fought like hell to get Bill Clinton elected. I supported Dean this year, but I will fight even harder for Kerry.

Please never forget that we are all on the same team here.

So Will, even though you have pissed me off a few times in the recent past and I'm sure I have done the same, consider the hatchet buried and the past differences of opinion truely FORGIVEN AND FORGOTTEN.

BTW, did you see Robert Randolph on Letterman last night? He rocked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
87. Criticizing isn't whining.
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 06:12 PM by Armstead
Having written my share of pleas for "civility" and reasonableness on DU over the last two years, I understand where you're coming from Will. And yes, it's been a bloody period of intra-family feuding in these parts. (Egged on by visiting disruptors and supporters who disappear once their candidate does.)

But the tone in which you ask for civility is not very civil. Must you ask for unity while castigating?

I don't know if I fall into your category of "bitter enders" or not. I've written my share of anto-Kerry screeds, but I've tried to do it in a constructive way (except when I get really pissed off by him).

And that uncertainty is one of the problems with this kind of thing.

A classic Republican tactic is to accuse anyone who doesn't fall into the GOP/conservative mold as whiners, malcontents, angry, bitter, gloomy, hateful, naive, unrealistic...and anything else they can use to distract attention from the substance. It's a handy way of shutting people up who have a different opinion.

Problem is it's becoming more common on our side too. Anyone who dares to think out loud, to criticize Kerry or to hint that maybe there's a better direction than the DLC path gets slapped down with similar terms.

You undersdtand what's at stake beyond the goal of merely changing the name on the door of the White House. I assume your time with Kucinich gave you a good idea of the difference between what we want and what we're settling for.

I get impatient and cynical when told to "just be quiet and let's focus on the first step now" because I've been through several cycles of the political pendulum in my life. As a baby Bokmer I lived from the transition of the 50's to Camelot to the turmoil of the 60's to the Chilly Right years of Nixon to the Carter Years to the Reagan Revolution to the Clinton Democratic Comeback to the Great DLC Sell Out to the Bush Junta.

Those periiods were all different, but increasingly there was a common thread. A growing timidity of the Democratic Party to defend democracy and a failure to address the core issues and the Big Corporate Takeover that has been going on since the 70's.

So I'm a little impatient when it feels like we might be going through anotehr version of the Democratic Retreat. And I really don't want to hear yet again the shopworn mantra that we'tr supposed to go along once more without a peep.

We ought to aim for a real victory, not anotehr hollow one.

I am ABB, I will support Kerry -- but I don't want to continue to hear anyone who pipes up and says we should try to do better constantly be told they are "bitter enders" whiners, etc.

Wonderful as it is, DU is just a message board. If we can't talk and vent and debate here, then there's not much point in it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Beautifully said!!! Thank you!!!!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. Well said, Armstead. And, that's the point of us, here, isn't it...or I
"thought" it was the point when I logged on, oh so long ago it seems.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #97
110. "Rinse and Spin!" That's a good one! Thanks! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #87
96. well said
I for one, don't find it possible to cleanly separate my outrage at Bush from the outrage I felt watching so many Democrats enable him. It's not so simply back and white. After all, thousands of people spent hours upon hours upon hours pleading with them to listen to reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lastliberalintexas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #96
107. Some people don't understand that
"I for one, don't find it possible to cleanly separate my outrage at Bush from the outrage I felt watching so many Democrats enable him."

Many of us feel that way, and the fact that we are unhappy with some Dems does NOT mean than we prefer Shrub. The feelings of disgust with our own party and the repubs are not mutually exclusive, as much as some here would like to pretend they are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. yes,
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 07:58 PM by G_j
of course I don't want Bush for four more years! If I hear that one more time, I'm a gonna scream. Of course I will vote him out, and then I hope to see him put on trial.

However, he did not operate in a vacuum.
He could never have done the amount of damage he did without enablers. Right off the bat when the Black Caucus was left dangling in the wind over the Fla election purges, then the approval of John Ashcroft, the tone was set.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #87
118. Thanks Armstead.
You said it very well. We don't need to be called names like whiners because we aren't Republicans are we?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #87
143. then there's always empire (details, details)
I concur with almost all of your post, Armstead. I'd like to bring up an additional point.

Once we are permitted to consider ideas beyond Kerry being not Bush, we inevitably run into ideas. It is axiomatic that some ideas are more important than others. William Pitt tactily recognizes this when referring to some wretched votes, but I think it would be helpful to do more than offer passing rhetorical cover.

Our experiment in government by the consent of the governed is currently in tatters, not merely because of the assault on the Bill of Rights, but also because a fraudulent administration has reconceived the USA as an empire instead of a republic. This idea is so deeply, deeply offensive to me that I cannot applaud the wisdom of a candidate who represents the alternative of doing an empire the right way.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jolene Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
90. Didn't you campaign for Nader in 2000?
I really don't remember, so I'm asking.

If you did, I hardly think you stand in any position to judge those who can't back Kerry now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Please.....that was THEN - this is NOW
and NOW wins. It's about survival - not where you stood before the world died.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jolene Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Uh, yeah!
People like that gave us Bush, to begin with. Hypocrisy never set well with me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Hypocrisy? How so - please explain.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jolene Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #99
105. Please
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 07:08 PM by Jolene
Don't tell Kerry opponents that the world is going to end if they don't support another decade of marginalizing the democratic base, if you helped get Nader on the ballot in 2000.

At least I'm not going to work to get a third party candidate on the ballot. Like I said - hypocrisy.

My one vote is one vote. Getting Nader on that ballot represented many votes. 'Nuff said.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
100. I spent an afternoon collecting signatures
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 07:02 PM by WilliamPitt
to get him on the Massachusetts ballot, because I thought he deserved to be there. I then voted for Gore. Your premise in a response to molly above that I somehow 'gave' America to Bush by doing this presupposes that Nader cost Gore the election, a premise that is as laughable as it is utterly debunked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jolene Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. Then you can understand
what drives those of us who disagree with the nomination of John DLC Kerry. Sorry, Pitt, but the same Nader which railed against the DLC then, is going to rail against it now. If you supported Nader's being on the ballot then, you must support it now.

I won't go so far as to work to get a third party candidate on the ballot, but I will never support John Kerry. If he 'wins' it will be another feather in the cap of the DLC, and it will mean another 10-20 years of marginalizing the base of the democratic party, in favor of disaffected republicans who vote in our open democratic primaries.

Those who worry about the damage Bush can do now should have been worrying about it when they were helping Nader get him into office, in the first place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #100
112. Geeze! Pitt! I never knew you were a Naderite! Never! That Explains
alot about you........I wish you'd confessed so that others who've been here awhile would have known! I feel like I just read "National Enquirer" ......Will Pitt Exposed!

I don't have a problem with that, because I never believe that "Nader tossed the Election to Bush." I actually used to like him and still do, although he has gotten weird on us lately.

But, all those Nader Flame Wars when I joined DU...and I never suspected...that YOU.....:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
95. In less than 2 weeks
I will caucus for Kucinich. Until then I support him and even after I will work for him if there is anything left to do. After that I will firmly be in the Kerry camp. So if that makes me a bitter ender then I guess I will have to live with it for now. I think it was said above by diamondsoul, I will support him and do all I can to see he is elected but after that I will hold his feet to the fire. I think the progressive groups have made a lot of ground and I think once elected Kerry will hear and act far more progressive than he can right now, at least I am hoping so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
109. I've just read 108 posts in response to Will's excellent analysis,
and, frankly, I'm disgusted. The amount of anti-Democratic sentiment makes me seriously doubt the future of this board. There are obviously a huge number of posters here who want * re-Selected. I'm going to peek in from time to time but I don't participate on freeper friendly boards. Good night.
:thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. If that's what you saw reading these posts.......well......I'm sorry...
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #109
124. Nah. Most of 'em just think I suck
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
114. Thanks. That was awesome --
I'm in the Kerry camp now! (I was before I read this, but...)

Let's kick some Bush butt, for the good of the country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vittorio Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
115. Will...great post.
It's too bad some of these people just don't get a clue. What's even worse is that these so-called "Democrats" want to reelect Bush, or would rather have Bush (re)elected instead of getting off their pity-party and backing Kerry. I think I may lay-low for awhile, too, just because I signed onto a Democratic forum...where Democrats can have good conversation. I never signed up onto FreeRepublic...at least that's what it seems like sometimes here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
stuzzy Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
116. Word up Will!
Good post, I never did like Kerry. You can look up my posts, and a lot of them say Kerry sucks, but I'm coming around and barring some huge muck up on Kerry's part, he'll have my vote and some of my money to boot.

These are the kinds of comments I like to see from you Will, keep up the good writing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
woofless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
117. Hammer...meet nail head.
Great post, and I agree totally. Your'e pretty smart for a young fella'. Must have been educated in Massachusetts like me.

Woof
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
119. Dear William,
Although some are still clearly upset with you...probably related to past encounters and fracas...

I think that this piece is nearly (almost) exactly the kind of thing that is needed right now.

Recognize that people loved their choice.

Realize that they are not happy about the other candidate.

Encourage them to participate.

I would attempt to re-phrase a couple of lines here and there...to adjust the rhetoric to better fit the overall message - when people are hurt, or are just cantankerous, it is easy to comb any piece of writing for a "handle" to grab onto and attack with....

Keep working it, keep it up, and it will be an excellent tool and an excellent bit of political work.

Cheers!

For the angry ones: I understand, feel, and share some of your anger. I, too supported another candidate (Dean) and have a lot of serious questions about Kerry. I, too, have been extremely disappointed with the tone, tenor and behavior of several specific Kerry boosters...and at times with William Pitt. I, too, have engaged in flame-fests and insult wars...and I too have been at times guilty of bad behavior and poor communication and "winning people over" skills.

That said, realize that this is a tentative beginning...an attempt to reach across a nasty divide.

Do the same.

There is no inherent disconnect between your desires for change and working for Kerry or voting for Kerry, or whatever you can stand.

You can STILL work on changing the Democratic Party, STILL work on reforming or rebuilding the progressive movement, STILL work on getting down-ticket candidates elected....

Your immediate plans and hopes were dashed...but that does not mean they are gone forever, and man o man half a loaf is better than none, bird in the hand vs two in the bush, and so on and so forth.

Work it, get there, take your time, incorporate your anger, direct it, focus it, and USE IT...but not on Kerry, and not on your brothers and sisters here.

CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and argument is useful - don't stop...expect respect in return for such useful (honest) activity.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. Thanks, Danny
Your posts are always clear and strong. I appreciate your words. Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #125
137. De nada
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
120. Will
That was fucking fantastic! :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
121. What about the people who never supported a Democrat
and never will, who just come here to convince us that there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats?

What do you say to them?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. I say to them
The following:

I voted for Nader in 2000 - in North Carolina, where Gore stood no chance, so my vote was a personal protest, but regardless..

I felt that there was little difference between Gore and Bush.

On many issues, I have deep, deep practical and philosophical problems with Kerry, and I can see how and why you might say or think that there is little functional difference between Kerry and Bush.

But I think the last three years have shown this argument to be lacking in weight or merit.

I urge people who think that way to first of all, vote your conscience - I will not castigate or badger anyone beyond that.

BUT, I would also urge those people to think strategically, and to honestly ask themselves if Gore would have been as bad as Bush. Would Gore have appointed the judges, pushed the laws, enacted the policies, and committed the acts that Bush has?

If their answer to those questions is yes, then I think that they should continue to vote their conscience, but that they should respect my right to do the same.

I think that they are wrong in their statement, and naive in their hopes, but correct on some facets...and should bring their passion into the fold and try to keep pushing the Democratic Party...but that's just me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #123
127. I certainly agree that
the last three years show the argument that there is no difference between the parties to be without merit.



However, I find it tiresome to continually point that out to those who do not respond to such reasonable arguments - I mean literally do not respond, but rather just move on to disrupt another thread.

And simply ignoring disruption of this type is not acceptable to me.

Unfortunately, this type of disruption is not at this time a violation of DU rules.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #127
138. To some degree, I agree...
However, there are a number who make the "other" argument, who DO respond, DO engage, and DO listen...and sometimes those kinds of discussions are the absolute best for learning, growing, and thinking in new ways...and sometimes they lead to real breakthroughs.

I think that banning any and all such discussions, as opposed to a bit of self-control in dealing with the ... more passionate? ... among the Left-Independent oppositon...is dangerous.

Better a thousand criminals go free than one innocent be punished unjustly, yes?

After all, this is NOT the communist party, this is NOT democratic centralism, discussion behind closed doors for the board and the steering committee only.

I know a lot about those kinds of parties and organizations. That structure serves a sometimes useful purpose, and the closing out or...purging...of oppositionists can make sense under certain conditions...but not here, not now.

Right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. Well I'll keep engaging
maybe someday I'll get a response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DannyRed Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. You are getting a response...
From me.

See?

Don't you get it?

I voted for Nader.

I am a die-hard socialist, member of the ISO, and hard-core leftist of the revolutionary stripe.

Dean brought me back into the Democratic fold after Clinton/Gore alienated me...

Alienated me to the point where I saw no difference between Dems and GOPs, where I actually thought, and in dark moments still think sometimes, that the BEST thing for the country would be the election to power of the radical right, and the re-election of Bush....because the worse things get the better they will become...

BUT...

Dean and the DFA organization did a good enough job at bringing me back in that I am now willing to actually do some legwork for Kerry, to rejoin (officially) the Democratic party, to work for downticket candidates, and to get active to grow and strengthen the left-wing of the Party...within the Party.

Think about that when responding to upset Dean supporters.

Think about that when engaging with apparently unresponsive lefties, greens, naderites, or what-have-you.

Craft and hone your message - it is a GOOD message...but the delivery and tone need some work when being addressed to some folks.

Yeah, coddling, victim mentality, and so forth, and I agree with some of the disdain for that...but, you have set yourself up as an advocate for Kerry, and you have remained a consistent and persistent spokesperson for Kerry.

Your self-assumed task on this little corner of the infosphere is to convince people like me to 1) vote for and/or 2) work for your guy...and in the process, 3) rejoin and reinvigorate the Democratic Party on its Left Wing.

It's a tough row to hoe, and you will continue to encounter some angry, intractable, unresponsive, stubborn people who will NEVER appear to have listened to you...will NEVER appear to have absorbed your message...

But in reality the words and thoughts and themes you will be presenting DO percolate and circulate.

Do a good job...it's an important one.

And what I am saying to you goes double for William Pitt.

Best of luck to you, and should you wish input or advice, or my take on a particular tactic, or message, or tone, or phrase, or theme...do not hesitate to PM me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #140
142. You are not who I was talking about
in any way shape or form. When you say that I'm getting a response... from you - well, yeah. People like you I have no problem with. I don't have a problem with people who voted for Nader in 2000, and I don't have a problem with people who plan to vote for Nader in 2004. I don't actually have a problem with people who voted for Bush in 2000. In fact I plan on trying to convince as many of those Bush and Nader voters as possible to vote for Kerry, out in the real world, that is. I would hope that even here at DU, they be willing to discuss it, rather than just throwing out taunts. If anyone wants to make the case of why it is a better idea to vote for someone other that Kerry with me, I'd love to discuss it.

There's no reason to explain that you are a radical leftist and yet you are reasonable. You don't know me so I don't know why you would assume I am intolerant of other views. I don't believe I've shown or expressed intolerance and I challenge you to point out an instance where I have.

Clinton/Gore also alienated me. I was a passionate Brown supporter in '92, even though I lived in Eastern Montana at the time and it really felt like tilting at windmills. I'd spent the previous 9 years touring with the Grateful Dead, completely disaffected from the political process - although I always voted. Clinton was the epitome of the slick corporate pol - I never trusted him, and clearly in hindsight, my first impression was correct - he was not trustworthy.

Not too long after 92, however, I was watching cspan and I saw John Kerry. In what might have been routine appearances on the Senate floor, I saw Kerry speak with honesty and passion, fighting for those who so rarely are spoken for, and with disregard for political correctness that inspired me. I thought then, this was the kind of man who should be leading our country, who knows - maybe someday he can be President. Did I nurse any illusions that Kerry could change everything? that Kerry would always make the choice that I would? that Kerry was somehow different from every other politician? Of course not. Because I believe we are all corrupt. There is no human that doesn't have flaws, contradictions, temptations and failings. But you can be without illusions and still believe in someone.

BTW, I don't feel like I've assumed any task here, frankly I don't think this is a productive venue for achieving any of the three goals you've set out for me -- those certainly aren't my goals -- my goal here is simply to entertain and inform myself through discussion. If I can occasionally entertain or inform others, even better. The goals you describe are much more achievable in the real world, imho.

I applaud you for becoming more involved in the political process, and I applaud Howard Dean and DFA for inspiring you.

But again I wasn't talking about you or anyone else who is actually here to engage in discussion. You and 99% of the people on this board are a pleasure to talk to. I'm talking about a few posters who come here specifically to discourage Democrats from participating in the political process, who will not engage in debate or respond.

As for your offer of advice, please just feel free to comment whenever you can think of a way I could have phrased my ideas in a more entertaining manner. I'm too shy to ask.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Would 'bite me' be too strong?
:)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KenLayedOff Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
128. Too many words Will
Can you sum it up in a couple of lines please?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
130. I mostly agree with this post. BUT.
My biggest problem with this, and similar, threads, is that a lot of the dissent about this candidate or that candidate is put down to "whining" or "sour grapes".

Do you know, it is quite possible many posters who dissented against Kerry, for example, did so because they truly have problems with the man and his policies, and not because their candidate didn't win?

The DLC and PPI's Will Marshall are still too cozy with PNAC for my tastes.

The media can still destroy a candidate, and I think it's dangerous to deny the effect the media had on Dean after he declared he wanted to break up the media monopolies.

We've still got people dying for lies and greed in Iraq, and we still need to get out of there - and Kerry doesn't look like he's going to pull the troops out anytime soon.

The sheeple still slumber, even as their waking anger gets safely funneled in the direction the corporate elite desires.

No, I think to dismiss all criticism of the candidates - whoever they are - as simple sour grapes or whining is to do a disservice to democracy. That's my opinion, and I stand by it.

It would be nice if more DUers would realize that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mountainvue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
131. Nicely done
WP. It's now or never.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imalittleteapot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
133. Well meaning post.
:pals:

After listening to right wingers all day it's difficult to come to my haven to find so much bitterness and anger directed toward Kerry's nomination. We should be proud that there was an abundance of talent in the Dem primaries and mature enough to accept that there can only be one to represent US against Bush. I thought we all agreed on ABB. I trust that once the flames simmer, all DUers will come together to support OUR candidate. If not, between the Nader and Bush assaults, we may end up with another four miserable years.

I would rather spend the coming years reading DU posts about our side — our President (critical or complimentary), than reading nearly suicidal posts about the Bush regime.

Will :yourock:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
134. What we're dealing with isn't personal.
You're trying to make it personal, though. You're trying to bring feelings into this. You shouldn't be doing that.

These are issues of principle, not ego. People have to put themselves in the way in defending these principles, because that's all they can do, but it's the principles themselves that matter, and they stand true whether people advocate them or not.

You're trying to turn this into a social issue. You're taking advantage of herd mentality and the primal forces of human psychology to SOCIALLY alienate those who disagree (or, perhaps don't) with you on PRINCIPLE. You seem haunted by those social forces, too, in your own mind. At the very least you've having an awful lot of trouble recognizing the difference between the two forces.

You need to remove yourself personally from what is happening here. You need to separate William Rivers Pitt from Will, and allow others to do the same.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
135. Very well said, but expect it to fall on deaf ears
Edited on Thu Mar-04-04 11:33 PM by zulchzulu
Nader knows exactly what he's doing.

He's going to try to slice off the Bitter-Enders as an enabler and massage them with lies about how there's no difference between Kerry and Bush.

Nader is my political enemy and anyone who decides to go to that side will be seen as nothing more than a Chimpy fan and will be treated with kind disrespect.

It's a good thing that most of the hard-core Bitter-Enders are such a small minority. Frankly, I don't think I'd want to work with them anyway while fighting hard to get Kerry in the White House.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
136. Thanks, Will.
I'm pretty new here and you're the one who turned me on to the place. I admit, I was getting a little edgy about the way things were going around here for a while. When I first dropped in, before nary a vote was cast, everything around here seemed "right," so to speak. Not GOP, Right. Just, right. Solid. Full of good Karma. Mission oriented and very focused. After the first primaries and caucuses, I noticed a great change in the tone and I began to think maybe this really wasn't a place I wanted to be. After reading your post, and Skinner's, I'm glad I stuck it out. Now, let's all go kick some GOP ass!

:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 04:36 AM
Response to Original message
141. "I'm here to apologize for my apology..."
This is beginning to resemble a Monty Python "letters to the editor" skit.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
144. Man, do you have ANY other note to play anymore?
Anything else, at all? Why do this, continually. I would prefer to see a serious article of yours, rather than this same type of post with rearranged words, but saying the same thing continually. Or is it meant to have a hypnotic effect? :shrug: and zzzzzzzz.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
147. Hey, I don't think I'm a bitter ender but if I wasn't ABB I would be
sitting this one out.

If I thought for a second Kerry was a good candidate I would never have bothered getting involved with Clark in the first place. Who needs the grief, or the aggravation?

The fact was AND IS that Kerry is a weak candidate, much weaker than we could have run, and that increases the risk of losing in November.

Nothing has changed. The times call for bold, dynamic action and we end up with another dose of the same old stuff that got us here in the first place. Another liberal democratic rich white guy from Massachusetts whose best days are long past, along with the gutsy young guy who stood up against the Vietnam War after himself taking a bullet on the Mekong.

You think that kid is the guy who voted for the IWR? Forget about it.

So, I'll support the candidate under the banner of ABB but there is no way I'll do so happily or willingly or with any sense of inspiration or enthusiasm.

This whole deal stinks and the only saving grace is that the smell is overwhelmed by the stench coming from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Hmmm. I wonder if I was clear enough?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 05th 2024, 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC