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The Estrogen Factor: Did It Eclipse the Edwards' Message of Eliminating Poverty?

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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:55 AM
Original message
The Estrogen Factor: Did It Eclipse the Edwards' Message of Eliminating Poverty?
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 10:58 AM by Samantha
I think I will be sitting out the debate tonight because I feel I know who is already the true loser in this campaign. It will not be Obama or Clinton but rather the 200 people who slept under that bridge in New Orleans last night that Edwards so poignantly spotlighted during his words of withdrawal. Perhaps the only relevant poll from this moment on would be one asking them, and those similarly situated, what is the most relevant issue in the 2008 Presidential debate. But their response to a poll question such as this will not be heard because the question will not be asked. Their standard bearer has withdrawn from the race.

Why is that? What could be more important than the issue of eliminating poverty to political progressives? Bookmarking this campaign in the pages of history books because a woman prevailed? Somehow weighing on one hand that latter quest does not rise to the weight of importance formerly held in the right hand of the Edwards’ campaign – addressing and eliminating the impoverished conditions in the lives of those disadvantaged Americans who look to each new day without enough food to eat, enough heat to warm them in the cold of the winter, and proper clothing with which to cloak themselves.

I walk not in the shoes of those people so I cannot presume to speak for them, but the spotlight on their quest to survive has been eclipsed in this political debate by the prominence of the promotion of the Estrogen Factor into our political discourse. And that’s almost too sad of a turn of political events to disappear before tonight’s Democratic debates begin.

But if the message carrier for the poor among us, a man who took pride in constantly reminding us he was the son of a mill worker, no longer has access to a microphone to broadcast their plight and enlist our help to assuage their impoverished plight, what can we do to help carry forth the message from this moment on?

The answer to this question will evoke different responses from those who ask it of themselves. If the burden is upon us to respond, here’s my answer, speaking only for myself: we must resolve to not allow those who continue in this race for the chair in the Oval Office to forget about them, for it is they, the impoverished among us, who are the true losers as the debates on both sides in this Presidential primary season continue.

And so when the words of those who prefer to discuss the question, is it time to put a woman in the White House, waft across the airwaves henceforth, or the alternate question, Is America Ready For A Black President, perhaps our true legitimate response to both of these questions should be to change the conversation: what will either of these two candidates do for the 200 people living under that New Orleans bridge should he or she prevail.

So, as a politically progressive woman who believes giving weight to either the Estrogen Factor or the Race Factor should not trump releasing the chains of poverty off the hands and feet of Black, White, Latino, and all other human beings living under bridges tonight, I ask you to consider what will you do in that quest.

What is your response?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. John Edwards also talked about the middle class and how it is losing out under
Republicanism. He understands that a progressive government is the only way to make "all boats rise with the tide." Whole segments of American society have been lifted out of poverty in past Democratic administrations. FDR did it for the elderly, Truman did it for returning WW2 veterans and their families, LBJ tried with his "Great Society."

Ronald Reagan made it acceptable for people in this country to demonize the poor. He understood that people who are in a precarious position in the middle class will strongly resist being characterized as poor or even "near poor." They simply refuse to lump themselves with the less fortunate, believing smugly in their own superiority.

We talk a lot about how so many people voting Republican are "voting against their own economic interests." It mystifies us liberals as to how people can be so irrational and not see what we so clearly see on their behalf.

The reality is that we have to live with these people's irrationality. With a Democratic administration we have some hope of bettering the lives of all Americans. Bill Clinton came closest to lifting all boats but certainly didn't lift all. But we will never, ever get close to that with a Republican administration. We should remember that, even as we reinforce what John Edwards said to HRC and BHO about remembering the poor.

We must vote for the Democratic candidate in November!
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you for your excellent response
I hope more people will take advantage of this thread to continue to promote the message of John and Elizabeth Edwards' championship of the disadvantaged among us.

Sam
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. Interesting....
The state of our union at present is the result of 200+ plus years of a government run on testosterone. I'm ready for estrogen.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. At what cost?
I am a woman and by no means feel bound to vote for Hillary based on her gender. John Edwards lead the way on all the issues, Hillary and Obama picked up his crumbs and called them their own. I do not see leadership in such actions, I do not see strength and compassion in how they have run their campaigns. Many of those testosterone fueled leaders did do a lot for this country, JFK and FDR, are two off the top of my head, but I would never presume ability based on sex and that is where the real progressive movement begins.
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RichGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. At no cost.
I would vote for the person who I thought is most qualified. In this case...the fact that this person is a woman, is icing on the cake.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. That's a perfect response
You are in a win-win situation. Do you feel your candidate will put the proper emphasis on the poverty issue as Edwards has requested she and Barack Obama do?

Thanks for your comment.

Sam
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. From another woman...
:thumbsup:
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. Thank you for this wonderful response
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 02:24 PM by Samantha
We are in the same place. As a woman, I feel disappointed the legitimate issues of this campaign are taking a secondary, and some not even that, place in the conversation. I do not mean to belittle the importance of a female becoming the Commander-in-Chief, or an African-American, but in the spirit of what the Democratic party embraces historically as its issues, are not these secondary to those people -- of both genders and all races -- falling between the cracks tonight? Those people have the most URGENT needs.

Sam
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I read this thread three times before I posted it this morning
looking for lines that might be perceived as critical to Hillary Clinton. I found none, although I did alter a couple of lines, and I sincerely hope there are none.

I understand the sentiment expressed in your response (and I thank you for posting your response), but my thread is intended to ask the simple question: isn't poverty and like issues truly the most salient issue in any Democratic primary. Isn't that what the party represents? That question does not serve to undermine the importance of Hillary Clinton's or Barack Obama's quest for the Presidency; it simply is intended to keep the key question of poverty and how we intend to deal with it on an upper rung of the political ladder of the debate, where I feel it belongs. If others disagree with the prominence of that issue, I can accept that and they should feel free to post that here.

Again, thank you for your response.

Sam

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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Perhaps you should have reviewed your subject line more carefully.
It totally telegraphs a bias.

Your post however is better than your subject line.
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The Estrogen Factor.....
vs. the Melanin Factor?

Why not the Gender vs. Race Factor
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I worked both issues into the body of the thread; I hope you noticed
This is not a thread which in any manner attempts to diminish the fact that a woman and an African-American are running for President. It is a thread which raises the question is that the important issue to you? And from those responding (and I thank you for your response) the answers will vary. I am just interested in raising the question and reading the answers. For me, the issue is not Gender versus Race; it is do Gender and Race trump all other issues? Granted that is not how I entitled the thread but I clarified that in the thread.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sam
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Yes, I read it...
I just thought the choice of words was interesting.

The most important issues to me right now are the economy and health care. I think Hillary Clinton has the know how to deal with both those issues. If the economy isn't turned around we are in deep shit.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. Excuse me, but what is my bias? n/t
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. I said this in another post, but I think the election is 1-2 year too early for Edwards.
Historically, major changes in government and economic policy only occur during a time of major economic upheaval.

FDR had no chance of being elected in 1928. Reagan benefited from years of Stagflation in the late 1970's.

Make no mistake. Major economic upheaval is on the horizon. Changes will happen, but, unfortunately, it's got to get a lot worse first.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. This is the kind of debate I hoped to prompt
I hope not to focus on the individual candidates because I don't want to see arguments erupt over individuals. I just want DU'ers to focus on what is, to each them, the prominent issues in this campaign.

Thank you for your response.

Sam
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. if we just want a woman or black we can support Alan Keyes or Libby Dole
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 11:25 AM by Armstead
Women, Blacks and all otehr demographic groups will only be helped slightly by having someone with similar genetic qualities in the White House.

What is most important is what the occupant would actually do in office.

The only way to deal with the economic inequities that pressure women, blacks, whites and everyone else is with a progressive president. The container is less important than the content.

That's my short answer.



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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. It's a good answer.
:thumbsup:
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Oops -
Error: You've already recommended that thread.

Well written and Thank You!
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Thank you for reading it, recommending it, and responding
I hope this thread really gets people to start thinking about what is important to them in this race as opposed to making it only a discussion about who snubbed whom.

Sam
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. What could be more important? Handshakes, clearly. And almost-tears. And "hope". And Oprah.
At risk of channeling Bill Paxton, and with the greatest possible respect, it doesn't sound like you're keeping up with current events.

Championing the cause of the poor was Edwards downfall. Americans, and especially the MSM, don't want to see that shit.

Given that the two front runners ARE front-runners precisely because they studiously avoid any hint that they care even the slightest, I'm not sure what our resolution to not allow the front runners to forget will do. They will smile nicely and thank us for our concern. And bring us a message of hope.

So now stand back and watch the party's self immolation. Bring marshmallows.

Or your can listen to the strident demands to pick sides; "Choice A I hate women"?. "Choice B I hate African-Americans"?. "I must pick only one"?

Apathy is the only remaining rational choice.

Hope springs eternal. Progressives will try again in 2014.
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kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Why wait
If we can't win the presidency let us at least take congress. I am going to my caucus and primary to back the most liberal friggin candidate I can find, and I am bringing all of my friends with me.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. That's a pretty positive plan
Congratulations, and thank you for your thoughts on the matter. Maybe your words will inspire others to do the same.

Sam
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. I am sad to say I am keeping up with current events
and that's why I wrote this thread this morning.

Thanks for your response. I get the picture.

Sam

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Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. I am a child of the 50's and 60's. I was arrested once, during a Vietnam war protest.
I have lived long enough to see history repeat itself over and over.....with little to no progressive progress.

We are the only democratic county in which the voters fear the government.

In England, France, Spain, Germany....when the people take to the streets, the government takes heed.


The voters in this country are impotent, because anything that challenges their level of comfort is too much work.

There is nothing on the horizon that encourages me to believe that voters will not continue to be seduced by the great electronic eye in the sky.


The moral of the story is....once the level of pain is spread more evenly though out the country.....then and only then will we see major change.

We will wait for it to break, before we vote to fix it.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Sorry, I really hate being a crank.
I really do.

But I have had the idealism whipped out of me. I consider it quixotic, quaint even, to try to encourage either of our front runners to dance with anyone other than the ones that brung 'em.

I agree with your aspirations. I just think that they are analogous to pushing a rope.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Well ... funny you say that ....
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 03:22 PM by Samantha
Dancing with the Devil that Brought Us
Posted by Samantha in General Discussion
Thu Nov 01st 2007, 08:49 PM

While researching some facts I previously posted in 2004 to buttress an argument another DU'er was making, I found the thread but discovered myself absorbed by other information contained therein. As I read those thoughts of 2004, I was overwhelmed with one salient thought -- it's so amazing in our Democratic process how we spot the plays of those who attempt to thwart the preferences of the Democratic base for a candidate or a position on an issue, yet we fail to adequately meet the opposition and quash it. The consequence of this failure is that four years later when we cycle once again through the same maneuvers launched by those politically opposed to us, we face those same plays and utter not a comment on the familiarity of the replicated pattern.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2187058
Sat Jan 17th 2004, 11:05 PM

It appears you are correct -- you are a little cranky and I am too idealistic. Thanks for your response, and at least we somewhat agree!


Sam
:hi:
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Corprat American doesn't want too see it. And doesn't want anyone who wants to fix the it either.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. EVERYTHING eclipses poverty!
What caring and concern do you note on DU for poverty?

Haven't you even noticed that any thread asking for calls and emails regarding poverty issues sinks like an anchor?????

"Progressives" have so many more important things to think about that us poor scum at the bottom.

:nuke:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. It is sad but the party has turned its back on the poor
Edwards offered us a chance to return to our New Deal roots.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It's not just the "party"... it's DU, it's so-called "progressives", it's "peace people"
With rare exceptions, they don't give one flying fuck.

Yet, all the railing about those who "don't vote their own best interests".

Well, this poor person IS voting her own best interests, and that means I won't vote for either of the Dem "winners".

So, I get castigated and yelled at for that, too.

What a bunch of mixed-up nincompoops!

:nuke:
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Yup. It is sad. Even here how many threads do you see about poverty?
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Will you be starting any?
If you do, I will nominate them and try to keep them kicked!

Sam
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Where here? DU? pretty much zilch, isn't it? Whenever I request calls and email
for a bill for poor folk which needs to be passed, my thread sinks like a stone.

Yet, when I say anything about it, I'm shooed away like a pesky fly.

Yes, DU makes it clear that poverty is just not on the agenda.

:cry:

But, I get called names when I ask why I should vote for the same old same old.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Perhaps one of the missions the Edwards supporters would want
to think about is sponsoring a fund to help a person in need. Others outside that camp might be interested in joining with it to maintain a fund to single out a cause that could use some help. For instance, flyarm mentioned meeting a woman while campaigning for John Edwards in SC that was very worried about how she would pay for future prescriptions. And then there is the issue John Edwards specifically mentioned about the 200 people sleeping under that bridge. Perhaps there could be a coordinated effort to help THOSE VERY SAME PEOPLE. I think one could start a discussion here about something along those lines. What do you think?

Sam
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. I'm living in my car, so I guess that would qualify... ^_^
It's too difficult at DU....

There are some other discussions going on now.... including talking about WHY the Dems don't care about poverty.

It will be a very difficult discussion, upsetting to some.

For starters, you might want to read this article:

http://prorev.com/2008/01/john-edwards-hidden-problem.html
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Why do you think that is?
There's no money in it?

People are very quick to blame the media for Edwards poor showing. Believe me, I do think he was shortchanged in this area. However, don't you think the public could have acquainted itself with Edwards better had they been interested in this message?

Sam
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jackson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. "Me first" thinking
That has been dominant ever since Reagan. Who cares about the poor? As long as I get mine! :(
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Reagan sent the message "greed is good."
I am not sure of your age (if you remember that) but it was the first time I had seen people publicly embracing that philosophy. Think about that every time you hear "Reagan" praised, and think of the consequences greed has had on the poor among us. Cities are barring the homeless from the streets and offer no alternative housing. Before Reagan, I had never seen mentally retarded people put out on the streets to fend for themselves. Yet tonight we hear that the Republicans mentioned this man 42 times in their debate last night. To idolize Reagan is to promote the concept of greed; and that's what Edwards was fighting against. Will Obama and Clinton continue that fight?
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
38. Work. And then work harder.
Good post, and good words.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. But YOU gave a great response - you actually answered the question
and I hope to work with you.

Sam
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Plan on it.
What is left to do? And again, I really loved the post.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Please take a look at my response #41 just posted
and let me know what you think. Perhaps we could get some input from the literal Edwards' base here. I for one am particularly interested in helping the 200 people sleeping under that bridge. I don't want to mislead anyone into thinking I have an overabundance of money, but I truly would love to help those people. I am sincere here ... not just talking to hear myself type.

Sam
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asdjrocky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Funny you should ask-
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Thank you so much for the pointer to this thread
I will read it more completely tomorrow; but I quickly asked about the bridge people tonight. I just cannot quit thinking about those people.

Sam
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
45. Bingo. It's all about the "C" factor
Class, of course.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
47. Kicking this!
Very worthwhile question. I'm gonna have to ruminate on this.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Oh my goodness, the West Coast weighs in on the East Coast
Edited on Fri Feb-01-08 01:01 AM by Samantha
Inside-the-Beltway feminine mentality. I am in trouble now! :spank:

Nice to see you, calimary, and I'll let you ruminate some more and brace myself for the results!

Thanks.

Sam
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. About that "Estrogen Factor" ...
Edited on Sat Feb-02-08 04:22 PM by calimary
Perhaps it's the "gateway drug" of this campaign season. That, and the "Factor of Color." Because since Edwards stepped away, that's waht we've got. Either we give the country the First Black President or the First Woman President.

In the mindset of those who somehow still aren't ready (because maybe they still think the Dark Ages were the gold ol' days - I myself have encountered more that a few of 'em who think the country began its decline the moment women got the right to vote), well, that's what we have to deal with. I was reading a Michael Moore commentary - written in early January while Edwards was still viable. And he surmised, correctly I think, that Hillary voted for the IWR and all subsequent funding (and Barack went for all the funding, too) because of the "Estrogen Factor."

(snip)

I wasn't "misled," and millions of others who took to the
streets in February of 2003 weren't "misled" either. It was simply
amazing that we knew the war was wrong when none of us had been briefed
by the CIA, none of us were national security experts, and none of us
had gone on a weapons inspection tour of Iraq. And yet... we knew we
were being lied to! Let me ask those of you reading this letter: Were
YOU "misled" -- or did you figure it out sometime between October of
2002 and March of 2007 that George W. Bush was up to something rotten?
Twenty-three other senators were smart enough to figure it out and vote
against the war from the get-go. Why wasn't Senator Clinton?

I have a theory: Hillary knows the sexist country we still live in and
that one of the reasons the public, in the past, would never consider a
woman as president is because she would also be commander in chief. The
majority of Americans were concerned that a woman would not be as likely
to go to war as a man (horror of horrors!). So, in order to placate that
mindset, perhaps she believed she had to be as "tough" as a man, she had
to be willing to push The Button if necessary, and give the generals
whatever they wanted. If this is, in fact, what has motivated her
pro-war votes, then this would truly make her a scary first-term
president. If the U.S. is faced with some unforeseen threat in her first
years, she knows that in order to get re-elected she'd better be ready
to go all Maggie Thatcher on whoever sneezes in our direction. Do we
want to risk this, hoping the world makes it in one piece to her second
term?

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2008-01-02

I think he's correct. She felt she had to "out-tough" or "out-balls" the Testosterone Team - those (mainly) men, mostly among the Dark Siders, who think all we need is more hitting, more bombing, more shooting, more fighting, more explosions, more destruction, more tough, more cowboy, more guns, more ammo, more therefore of everything that's gotten us into such trouble, made us so many more enemies, cost us the trust and admiration of the world, earned us more distrust and return-hostility and even a slow but steady march toward a new Cold War. Why do we see Vladimir Putin and others talking about arming up again? Because they see a threat - mainly from us. The bad guys appear to think that if only we could just come up with the hardest punch in the nose, that'd somehow magically bully the last of the adversaries into submission and they'd go away and see the error of their ways and start behaving themselves and everything would be just peachy again. In other words, we've gone the rogue-aggressor route, sticking guns in everybody's faces, with this my-way-or-the-highway shit (comply or we'll blow you to smithereens), and done it their way, AND LOOK WHERE WE ARE!!!

Perhaps Hillary has been trying to redefine the whole "Estrogen Factor" concept to fit that old paradigm - that so tragically and disastrously isn't working, to make herself palatable, and not summarily ruled out, by the knuckledragger contingent. Well, that's one way to deal with them. Perhaps a simplistic way.

My son and I had to drive from L.A. to Camarillo today and as he's trying to rack up hours behind the wheel with his learner's permit, I was in the passenger seat. And I had a lot of time to think.

So if calimary was president, what would she do? I think I'd put a different sort of "Estrogen Factor" to work.

Who would I be dealing with, as president? A lot of bigshots who are mostly men, aside from Germany's Angela Merkel, internationally, and domestically, there's really nobody - the best the other side can offer is a handful of screeching harpies from hate radio, contradicta, and the pathetically insignificant and nearly invisible liddy dole. So we're dealing with mostly men, okay? Both foreign and domestic.

So I'd use the best weapon we've got: How To Handle A Dick (because a dick is, in many respects, just a handle).

So there I was in the passenger seat, thinking up how many of the sexiest, most alluring women in America I could round up as "MY Spice Girls for Peace and Freedom and The American Way." Just work with me here. Angelina Jolie. Tyra Banks. Oprah (a MOST beautiful and alluring and elegant and glamorous woman - over 50). Amber Valletta and Shalom Harlow and the supermodel contingent. Beyonce Knowles. Jennifer Garner. Jessica Biel. Scarlett Johanssen. Carrie Underwood. Faith Hill. Ellen Barkin. You get my drift. Like I said - JUST WORK WITH ME HERE FOR A MINUTE. And I'd call them all into my Oval Office, explain the strategy to them, and put them to work, domestically and internationally, to sweetly beguile (NOT TO BED) our male adversaries and unruly partners, playing to and exploiting their basic male weakness. And I'd continue to recruit more. I mean, look who we had tracking WMDs in some really dicey parts of the world? A BABE - Valerie Plame. I met some political activists at a dinner at which she was guest of honor, and one of them had family members in the CIA and said this was Standard Operating Procedure there - recruiting alluring women to go overseas and deal with some of these testosterone-issue jerks. And the blonder the better, I was told. Blinded by "love" and all that. Mind you it never included any disrobing or that sort of stuff. It was all done in the boardrooms not the bedrooms. It was psy-ops. Playing to and manipulating the greatest and deepest inner hang-ups of the enemy.

Sexist? Yeeeeeeeeeeahhh, likely. But just wait a minute. What I would be doing is co-opting the roger ailes view - and an idea that sprouted from reading a blog by Dan Cooper - who once helped design Pox Noise:

(snip)

The best thing that ever happened to Roger Ailes was 9/11. Even Roger Ailes,

Machiavellian as he was, couldn't have dreamed up anybody as fabulous as Usama

bin Laden (Allah told Roger to spell it Usama), or UBL, as Fox News called him.

Because somebody up there, or down there, loved Roger, 9/11 happened on his

watch. It gave him the opportunity to throw gasoline on the bonfire he had

already set to scorch and destroy traditional liberal values. For those of you

under 50, the United States once had liberal values. There was even such a

thing as liberal Republicans. That's enough of that, because I know talking

about the Devil's spawn and blond big-boobed temptresses is far more

interesting. But hang on a bit.

While I was working in Los Angeles, early in the Fox-hyped action adventure

America called the War in Iraq, and my marriage was going nuclear, the number

of viewers of the newly American flag-bedecked, happily neoconservative Fox

News Channel jumped 300%. By now, the Fox News headline readers were all-

American cheerleader types (blonds with big boobs!), and I always imagined them

standing on each other's shoulders during station breaks cheering on the troops

and our glorious Commander-in-Chief.


http://www.caos.us/2008/01/naked-launch-prologue.html

The reason I mentioned all those alluring females above was that the way to get to the mentality that watches Pox Noise and worships the cardboard cowboy and still believes he can do no wrong is to hijack the base mentality of message delivery that roger ailes used: he aimed straight for the dick. Because, I believe, THAT'S WHERE HE COMES FROM AND THAT'S WHAT HE OPERATES FROM. The dick. For him, ugly, fat, old Jabba-the-Hutt type, it's basically about being the biggest, most potent dick around, 'cause that's how you get everything everywhere, including babes. You assert your dominance and your potency and your power by being the biggest, baddest he-man in the jungle. You're operating straight from below the belt - your own personal Missile of Muscle! Because that's all you're about - muscle. And it's probably because you're so fuckin' ugly inside and out that the only way you can intimidate everybody else and still be attractive to women (the ultimate trapping of power - SEX) is through power.

I had a dad like that. NOTHING to look at, but he was a skillful salesman and was able to project an image of power, success and wealth, and he had hot-and-cold bimbos up the yingyang, much to the distress of my poor mother. And the babes flocked to him, even though he kinda looked like roger ailes, because of what they saw in him that he could deliver for them: power and influence (even though, in the real, non-illusionary world, he didn't have that much of either.

That's where the beautiful women come in. Instead of bombs, WE fight with bombshells. The way I believe Queen Esther did in the Old Testament, using her beauty and sexual allure and her wiles to ensnare the King of Persia and wrap him around her little finger, save her people, and save her adoptive father Mordechai from execution by his enemies. If I, as president, knew I had to disarm somebody like roger ailes (and if you read that Naked Launch prologue about how he want about using Pox Noise to demonize all things Democratic and liberal, VISCERALLY, from the gut - AND BELOW), all the women he had on there looked like frickin' inflatable dolls. Big fat juicy lips, lovely faces, more often blonde than anything other, and as alluring as hell. So there we see roger's Achilles Heel, don't we?

:evilgrin:

And if roger ailes can deal in that kind of mind-fucking and manipulation, he can certainly be affected by it. He knows how he feels, and what rings his chimes, and that's what he put to use to "get" everybody else who resonated with him - all those poor, pathetic Dark Siders who think the dick rules all, it's all about the stern, punishing father, the guns-NOT-butter, the testosterone thing, the shoot-first-ask-questions-later, diplomacy is for sissies crap. It's all about the dick. So the "Estrogen Factor" would very wisely exploit that weakness. After all, we've learned the valuable strategic war-making lesson from kkkarl rove about attacking the enemy at his strongest point. Which for most of these guys is their virility, their sense of their own balls, their masculinity and potency. I mean, look at that clown who's now "running" France, Nicolas Sarkozy - hardliner, wrong-winger, and being led around by his balls. He's just thrown over his contrarian independent wife for ex-supermodel Carla Bruni who's best known for frollicking in the near-nude with Mick Jagger while Jerry Hall sat home and got pissed off.

It's not so much the "Estrogen Factor" as it is the "Dick Factor." And how you - er - um - handle it. Psychology and wartime psy-ops. THEY play it on the Dark Side. For all they're worth. WE have an opportunity to play it BETTER. And Obama could do his own version of it if he understands the underlying "Dick Factor" and works it. It need not be only Hillary's bailiwick.

I must admit here, it betrays in me sort of a disdain (yeah, okay, pity, too) for these pathetic simplistic assholes who can only really speak in testosterone. You see 'em on parade with every republi-CON debate and gathering et al. It's all about THE DICK and whose is the biggest. All mccain and romney and gomer and rudy and even numbskulls like tancredo and duncan hunter were about was dueling dicks. Quien es mas macho. Who doesn't give a damn about walking softly but cares EVERYTHING about carrying that all-hallowed big stick - AND swinging it around as threateningly and intimidatingly as possible. All they can think about is who's on top (because of being perceived as having the biggest dick. They're nothing but a whole mess of little boys trying to prove they're bigger-n you. Which, to me, amateur psychologist that I flatter myself as being, betrays in THEM, a basic insecurity about their own manhood and potency and how they CLEARLY feel they have something to prove. Then, of course, we have romney with five sons, NONE OF WHOM seems "macho" enough according to the paradigm of that side of the aisle to enlist in the military. And romney's purported "strength" is economic, not macho military war-hero or war-hero wannabe like the rest of 'em. You can tell romney's never gotten his hands dirty - but does do a lot of that fancy hair stuff (and they put Edwards down for 400-dollar haircuts and called him the "Breck girl"! I wonder how much time and money romney has spent on HIS hair - probably has his nails buffed every week, too). Remember one of the bad guys' favorite insults flung at our side in 2004 - from none other than Mr. Testosterone-Gone-Wrong, Arnold the Gropenator - the "economic girlie men." See where they're going?

I mean, if you really wanna get barbaric and sexist about it (and I think we have to take that kind of thing into account, when we look at who we're really up against, the mindset, the pathology, going into the G.E.), look at the two biggest "macho men" they've got: bush and cheney. Notice how they don't have sons? And for cheney, the personal conflict is even more cutting because one of his two daughters is gay. Imagine how THAT must mess with his head! For many men (and we've got a neighbor like that), it's all about proving your virility because you can seed sons. Patriarchal society and all that. And this one particular neighbor who had three daughters suddenly became hostile and a little condescending to my husband when our second child turned out to be a boy (our daughter was the best friend of his youngest daughter and therefore we inter-acted frequently). And this neighbor was, coincidentally, a staunch republi-CON. Looks down on us as being the crazy loony-liberal hippies in the neighborhood to this day. And I have always suspected that he has a big inner hangup about his own masculinity and potency and virility because he was unable to sire sons. My late and much-loved father-in-law sired three sons, and had this SERIOUS undercurrent of macho all the time. Hell, even their dogs were male. No wonder my poor mother-in-law drank! I observed with interest the change in him - and in the overall "vibe" of the family that he undisputedly led, that came when more women entered the family (through marriage - his sons started doing surprising things like bringing him daughters-in-law). It was a FASCINATING and most instructive character study as he softened, the hard edges seemed to have been sanded down, and it wasn't this domineering testosterone thing anymore. Things seriously and genuinely transformed into something (pardon the expression) kinder and gentler. It was, all told, a rather lovely and welcome transformation through that side of the family when the "Estrogen Factor" started taking over.

Myself, personally, I don't care about having sons versus having daughters. They're of equal worth and value and preciousness. I would regard my husband as equally virile if he'd given me daughters only. Or, for that matter, if he shot blanks and we had no kids. It wouldn't have mattered. It just isn't a factor for me. But face it: to many others, it IS. Many of them are SERIOUSLY hung-up on this kind of thing. And we find a vast majority of them on the other side.

Anyway, that's just what I've been thinking as I try to connect the dots and figure people out, what makes them tick. I think we HAVE to do that - the figuring people out part - with the enemy we face (either the politicians or the communications/message specialists on the Dark Side - adversaries ALL). We have to look at what moves and motivates them deep down, their complexes and insecurities and hang-ups and obsessions, so we can attack THAT. Their biggest weaknesses and complexes and fears. Just fodder to be exploited, in my view. The better we understand thos undercurrents, the easier we'll beat them.

Shit - sorry this went on so long... what the hell do I know?

on edit - YIKES! This is REALLY long! Sorry about that!!!
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. OMG, Mary, you need to start a separate thread with this info
I just saw this and got halfway through and I thought about my line (submitted last night) about being in trouble because the East Coast feminine perspective would be kicking my West Coast (inside-the-beltway) feminine butt. To tell you the truth, I am going to have to re-read this tomorrow in order to absorb it and comment, and to figure out if you did in fact do that! But if I see it in a separate thread, that will make me very happy. It would be so interesting to get more comments on this issue.

I would like to say off the top of my head, a lot of advice Hillary has functioned under was that of Mark Penn. I think he has given her very bad advice, and she's starting to turn around now in the public perception of her because she has substituted some of her own better instincts.

Susan Sarandon remarked during the last couple of days that she thought the Country was ready for its first female President, but perhaps NOT THIS FEMALE. (That's taking some liberty with quoting her and is not quite precise). That's another interesting dimension coming from Susan Sarandon, a well-known outspoken liberal.

BUT THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE AND I WILL READ IT TOMORROW AND COMMENT. I HAVE TO GO CHECK OUT YOUR OTHER THREAD NOW, MARY LYON.

Sam
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-03-08 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Well, hell, with all that verbal real estate I overdeveloped up there,
I failed to address your real question - about Edwards' core message - confronting poverty and how it may have been drowned out by all that other stuff.

Well, I sure hope it isn't. It's a bedrock issue that should be of concern to all who consider themselves members of the family of humanity. We DO need to care for each other, and look out for one another. We're all in this together. We breathe the same air from the same atmosphere. We get warm under the same sun. We look at the same moon every night. We live on the same rotating orb together.

I once bored many DUers here by blathering on about the new label I thought up for the republi-CONS: The Party of Cain. Because to me, that's what they are. Cain was that poor schlub in Genesis who offed his brother Abel in a fit of jealousy, because God appeared to like Abel's sacrifice better than Cain's. Then God came looking for Cain and asking the pointed question - "where is Abel?" And Cain responded: "How should I know? Am I my brother's keeper?"

Well there's the gist of it. Seems to me how WE as human beings answer that question is key to our real humanity, our worth, our souls, what makes us salvageable and redeemable. I think we Democrats and liberals and progressives would answer: "Well, yes, of course! I'm my brother's keeper. Seems to me I should always try to help my brother if he's in need." The republi-CONS, CONservatives, regressives and the rest of 'em would likely answer: "Am I my brother's keeper? HELL NO! FUCK HIM! I busted my ass to earn what I've got and TOUGH SHIT FOR HIM if he doesn't have any. I got mine. Let him get his own!"

Around our house, one of the annoying sayings (usually from me) that gets spouted a lot, especially when I'm up on my soapbox and orating, and thoroughly boring my kids, is "much blessed, much obligated." But I really believe that. If you're blessed with plenty, and there are those who are doing without, you have a moral obligation to lend a hand. To do SOMETHING besides turn your head and look away because those bag ladies and those huddled piles of gray and brown under bridges and on park benchs are homeless men and it's all just too icky to deal with. You HAVE to do something if you're able to, I think.

What's so odd to me is how the most loudly and publicly "Christian" among the Dark Siders carry on about Jesus and how their brand of belief in Him is the best (certainly a whole lot better than yours!), yet they completely overlook what His message was. Not only was there nothing in the Beatitudes that said "blessed are the war-makers," not only was there nothing mentioned about gays or gay marriage or capital gains taxes or giving the rich all the breaks or mixing religion and politics ("render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God that which is God's" - note the separation - He didn't say to mix them or blur them or give Caesar's stuff to God and vice versa), but He talked ALL THE TIME about the poor. ALL THE TIME. He talked about the rich man having as much of a chance of getting into Heaven as a camel does slipping through the eye of a needle. He talked about "the least of My brethren" ("whatever you do unto them you do unto Me"), and so many other things. He sided with the underdogs. He hung out with the outcasts. And He constantly championed the poor. I heard a quote somewhere that there are maybe three mentions of homosexuality in the whole Bible (both Old AND New Testament), and THOUSANDS of mentions of the poor. So you tell ME where the priority's supposed to be, according to that Guy all those knuckledraggers profess to admire and worship so much.

The measure of the humanity, I think, is how we treat the least among us. And if all we care about is further advantaging the already-advantaged, if THAT'S where our efforts go and our priorities are set, then we are shallow indeed. Poverty has to be a priority. After John Edwards withdrew from the race, both Clinton and Obama announced that ending poverty would be central to their campaigns. I hope that continues. We can't forget those fellow citizens (and many veterans) sleeping under that overpass in New Orleans. We can't abandon the safety net any longer.

Anyway, perhaps the key to your question's answer is doing exactly what YOU are doing. You are kicking it up talking about this, exploring the idea, provoking people into thinking about it. That keeps poverty in front of people's minds. And when you know about it, you're more likely to try to do something about it. Maybe this is part of what we need to be mindful of doing as citizens, part of our civic duty as it were, to try to do something about it. Big or small. Doesn't matter as long as you pitch in and do something. John Edwards' campaign, with him constantly bringing up poverty (almost like a lobbyist for their interests), may be over, but the fact that we're talking about it means it hasn't sunk out of mind, or of the public eye. No matter what happens from the Clinton or Obama camps, we still talk about the fight against poverty and promote awareness of it. Which makes it more likely that someone will be touched enough to try and do something about it. We have to do our part, and lead. This will help keep the issue of poverty up front. Everybody has to play a part here. We're in this together too.
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ursi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
48. Hillary is obviously post-menopausal so what's up with the estrogen comment?
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. It was simply a turn of the phrase and not intended to be taken
literally.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
49. Hillary's having a townhall meeting. Try to get your question in nt
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
50. I'm a woman, I liked Edwards
I chose him for his stand on the issues and his ability to run a savvy campaign.

Do you think for a minute if Edwards had begun running ads he wouldn't have begun pulling more women voters? Why do you think the news media kept him hidden for so long?

Women are confused now, we have to work it out somehow, but I think most will go with Clinton.
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