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Six states, the corporate media and some pollsters determine the candidates.

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:22 AM
Original message
Six states, the corporate media and some pollsters determine the candidates.
I don't remember learning that in my civics class.

And the debates are a treat, too, aren't they?

It's fun to watch Mr. Potato Head ask the only person with single payer healthcare if he saw a UFO.

And to wrap it up, we get to vote on hackable electronic machines.

Great system. Democracy is officially dead in this country.

We are all extras in the group scene of a movie that has been scripted and cast well in advance. No ad libbing by the public allowed.
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Auggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
1. And the pundits wonder why voter turnout is so low
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. Now you find this out? In 2004 MSM crowned Kerry in his living room BEFORE
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 07:27 AM by robbedvoter
any vote was cast. The Dean love was withdrwn, a bried honeymoon helped Kerry with those early states, then he got the full bore attacks & the diebolding. And you think TODAY democracy died?
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Oh, no Democracy died twice officially
Once was when the Supreme Court appointed Bush.

Once was the day the first unverifiable voting machine was installed.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. 2000 when the media stopped the recounts
and hid the fraud. The protesting House Black representatives were not allowed to speak and protest the fraud in Florida, etc.(by the Senate). It was a coup.

Trafactant (D-OH) was punished for his outrage. Shut up and sit down. They framed him and put him in jail.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. The recounts WERE allowed to proceed
The media (of all people) paid to carefully hand count every ballot under 3 different standards.

Using ALL counties (Bush's standard before the Florida SC) GORE WON by 3 (!) votes to 300 votes depending on the standard used.

Using JUST the counties Gore-LIEberman wanted counted (remember, Gore refused to recount every vote as Bush offered, because Lieberman told him to just recount the votes in blue precincts) Gore LOST every tally. So Gore would have LOST the recount because of bad legal advice but he WON the election based on the recount BUSH proposed and we know by EXACTLY how much.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. But Bush was announced the winner by the Dem leaders
Did you know in Florida some of the first counts weren't even done let alone recounted? Which is the law in a state like Florida when the election is so close.

If they counted and recounted the close counties Gore would have won. I read articles about it on Democrats.com.

What was that all about anyway when Florida was such an important state? Gore couldn't give the election to Bush fast enough.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. On that we agree.
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Fabio Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. What are you talking about?
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. Will Pitt regaled us with an account of this meeting. All Networks, newspapers
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 11:30 AM by robbedvoter
publishers, all people of influence met one day in Kerry's home* - shortly before the Iowa primaries. I remember one other detail: they asked him if he was sorry about his IWR vote. He said "OFF THE RECORD - yes"(It was why Pitt was so happy do describe for us the little pow-wow. Immediately after negative articles on dean appeared - what he said in Canada about Bush, his Vt records, his recruiting times statement, some MLK Day spat with the press - culminating with the cream - that they've been hunting for - like they tried with Hillary. So, they turned against him. As they will against Obama the second he won't serve their purpose anymore (get rid of Hillary)
Found it!
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml

Correction: upon reading it was in Franken's living room, not Kerry's (which explains why Franken canceled an appearance to a Clark fundraiser he previously committed to)
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Fabio Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yeah, I heard about that meeting.
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 05:29 PM by Fabio
And I read WP's article.

Are you saying he is not recording some sort of discussion of how to attack dean that went on in the room?

And where to John Kerry say anything about "off the record" Rather, I read:

"It was all on the record and yet, it was remarkably open, honest and unscripted"
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. Baloney - those same 'journos' still said Kerry was dead in the water.
And most of the 'journos' who were there happened to be advocates for the left.

The mainstream media still downplayed Kerry's strength on the ground in Iowa.

You really have a distorted view about 2004.

The media wanted NO Democrat to win in 2004 - they were busy protecting Bush who promised them rulings they wanted (Dan Rather has admitted this). And the Clintons were right there with the media, turning the knife in at every turn.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:28 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just four states since Michigan and Florida were left out.
Don't you just love the posts about Edwards and his getting on with his life, etc. on this site? It's like they are trying to cover this outragous stealing of primaries like he and Kucinich couldn't win. Were they afraid, they might win a Progressive platform?

In 2006 the message was Progressive but the DLC stole it for themselves allowing the Republicans to stop our control. Seems that way to me.

It's not only a fight for our country but to get back our vote.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
6. The media had already made up our minds before Iowa
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Bush kept using the word "truth" in his speech
"Truth" is not what we get in DC today. It was like mocking us.

I'd like to say Iowa picked the leaders in the primary but ain't so. The elite picked them at the Bilderberg Group, etc. They aren't even Americans. They are mostly European royals. Kissenger and David Rockefeller are leaders in the group. They weren't elected do make any decision for our country behind closed doors. They are breaking the laws of representation with foreign leaders without election or govenment appointment. It is undemocratic.

It is shameful that Pelosi and Reid allow it. Pelosi even strengthened the law only to ignore it.
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mrcheerful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. You know I been hearing this since 1964.
It was said during the election year when Nixon tried his second bid at the white house and we got stuck with a person that was unelectable after Bobby was murdered. I remember my dad and uncle getting into a big fist fight after uncle told dad Nixon was a bad choice and "the other guy" was the one who was best for america and the worker. Dad was pissed off that his choice for president was murdered and he didn't like what he read in the papers about the "other guy", never mind that even back then the news papers and news shows had a puke leaning or the fact that both ran hachet attacks against Dem's, dad trusted local news over the big city news stations that played at 6:30 pm after local news. Uncle stated the problem was news and a few states picked the runners not we the people right before the fight got going. I have heard the same argument during every election cycle every since by different people.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Stealing of American democracy
did not happen over night. Nixon was corrupt and his gang are still in power today. Only Ollie North went to jail for a short time. The rest pardoned by Ford and Bush. He planned a Northwoods like event for power. They wanted military rule in America. Wonder why you keep hearing it?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. And the media corporations took over the debates. Time to liberate that at least!
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. And the media consortium counts and reports the votes.
Edited on Thu Jan-31-08 07:49 AM by mac2
How stupid is that?

I remember a Congressional hearing after the 2000 election. The people were outraged over what they saw on TV. The Congress wanted to take away the media licenses since they "influenced" the outcome of the election.

The CEOs promised the Congress and the people it would never happen again. Well they perjured themselves didn't they?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
14. when I talk with the general public
in person, and not on a message board, I get a very cynical response to politics--that the politicians who "succeed" aren't interested in the people or in democracy, but rather are high on money and power and helping the corporations.
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
15. It's funny, they make all the predictions based on the first few states.
That's it. Then the horse race kicks in.

We can't only rely on the Internet, because a lot of people just go there for porn. They could give a ---- about anything serious. We need to keep talking to people. Has anyone tried just calling up one of these networks and just telling them? Just asking them why they aren't doing shit?

I don't think it's just because of the ads. After all, if a lot of people get to them about it, they will be scared of losing ad money.

If we give up, we kind of lose the whole point.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Porn?
Americans only care about porn? I don't think so. Where did you get your statistics on the "rabble"?

If that is the case you'd better stop because the government and your employer can use it against you. It is abuse\exploitation of women and children anyway.

I and my spouse use the Internet for news, records, etc. What about you?
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
17. Well this now the most likely scenario
Obama does well then loses. The numbers are shifting really all that dramatically. if they do it is most likely he can only come close. The two main reasons excluding the media clowns and the primary setup and whatever might very well suffice under any conditions. The inertial thrust of Dem voters and the establishment power plus dedicated base power of the Clinton campaign. You might say in some rough math that the media has even canceled itself out by trashing Hillary to the point of hamstringing, immobility and and yet by keeping issues and vote fraud of the past two losing cycles have not given the Dem electorate any real healthy fear of November. Though that suits their GOP purpose admirably it arguably looks like some good old political attitudes, remarkably inappropriate for the times has weighed in.

Nostalgia and trust in the Clinton era. Many actually rotten regimes have snuck back into power after a disaster like Bush. The aura of Bill is undiminished and he was a winner in the eyes on many, usually older voters. Supposedly wiser, but that is never true. The establishment power is bound to that of course, the team, the allies, the "experience". Just on plain inertia and the added excitement of Dem women a very good candidate(not great like Bill) there is something akin to an incumbency power from party pols to the voters.

To overcome that one needs both a very charismatic alternative which will always find a home among voters who REALLY want change and some realistic appraisal of electoral possibilities in the fall. While we have been watching Bush dismantle America, America with some great mesmerizing encouragement has been occupied with other things, bent away from doing anything and thinking less. Raw feelings and inescapable disasters and common intuitions move the masses as a collective toward daylight. The anger and fear is not well directed and hits around both ways in the box. This is how Bill survived impeachment and how many pols were punished, including Al Gore.

Before even thinking about the powerful and well run campaigns of the alternatives to Hillary one has to admit that the public does not rationally get it about the electoral risks we are taking again, nor about the entire first tier of critical issues that also should have priority- logically and by experience as well. So what we had instead was an inevitable candidate with massive negatives based on the information distortions in previous years being met by a high road for change rookie and a person on the losing ticket of 2004 who had decided to try to knife through the inertia. Obama also has a powerful base, only lately swayed to his side, and a much better political and issue sense than Gary Hart. The alternatives are very different and a significant core of their supporters are still not looking outside the box. That is why supporters of all candidates can seem shallow and move toward other campaigns in ways surprising to people most concerned and more knowledgeable about the real times we live in.

Considering the voters pretty much are set in their mystified simple ways and most things canceling out and blinking out in the process and no sudden rout having happened, I would imagine(predict?) that Hillary will get enough with even a modest share of the Edwards supporters who simply think they have to choose one of the other two to secure the nomination with her super delegate edge. Maybe not, but in the rise and fall of tides things settle back to her advantage pretty inevitably. That is the voters' choice. There have been worse and the voters more disgruntled, but maybe never this surreal because the people's thoughts and movements are way out of whack with the real challenges of these times.

She then will get to seat her Florida and Michigan delegation cheering section without too much scandal. She might have to choose Obama as Veep if showering him with healing honors and glory is not enough. I would think either candidate realistically has to choose someone else. Real progressives had better hold their lunch tightly. While the masses of Dem voters may carry some of this unexplained dyspepsia bravely, reality will bite. In the best case scenario and to the delight of strategists of the percentages like Rahm, there will be no real attempt to sweep the board, all predictable claims to the contrary notwithstanding. The masses will not be told too soon that their states are written off, but unquiet feelings will mount. The feelings of the GOP will be stronger because orchestrated, and hopefully their candidate will be a real schmuck without much Bush machine backing. If Bloomberg is in to siphon off fear, distaste of "partisanship" and the same old stuff(that was an attraction to many Dem voters in the primaries!) any GOP candidate could game it and be competitive. If competitive then then Clinton is irresistibly vulnerable to media attack and election fraud. If so, then a greater and greater disquiet among the Dem voters whose momentum had been delegated, they suddenly find, to the past. To being robbed again. Of course that is the dismal picture. There will be fire and enthusiasm and dedication and mountains of new voters and workers. The odd great campaign moment or debate performance perhaps. And things will settle done into predictable inertial sequence of events that will have the hairs on the back of your neck standing up for weeks unless the GOP is in full self-destruct mode like 2006.

We will win if the economy sucks and the war is going bad and the competent campaign doesn't morph into Mondale/Dukakis/Gore/Kerry and doesn't lose the initiative by hugging the football. Not running against a Reagan Hillary may prevail over her own negatives.

As for progressives, as miserably weak and differently deluded than other segments of the party they might learn as all other- and crazier, dumber groups have- that having the best this or that is not often politically rewarded anywhere in the world and that educating the public, doing away with the sham MSM interference will not change the inertial fundamentals that existed in the 'good old days". That a second rate actor can steal your government with the voters adulating seal of approval, that telling the truth will be punished enough to make the leader a pariah at first(and long enough to defeat), that in the glamor of a big money campaign, memory and common sense get tricked completely. A single leader or candidate is only the final tool in the toolkit. We have since the beginning of the campaign have had the same challenge no matter who the nominee was. To organize, unite and lobby for change as a dedicated group and not as a seasonal fan base. We never got behind a single candidate anyway- as usual. Our effect has been marginal and marginalized and denied, rather easily, with only the strength of truth versus real world meltdown of the crap vindicating our position if not our influence.

Let's elect progressive candidates, spell out the real priorities, and let the campaigns know who we are and why we are here, and why we cannot be denied. or, in the usual run of things in history, this country(and planet) is in for a big pile of trouble in a time where such foolery will be punished more severely than in any other generation.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
20. Of those six states 2 didn't count and 2 had that asinine caucus system and the 2 remaining
New Hampshire and South Carolina are rather unique in themselves.

Our primary system sucks. Good candidates get flushed way too early.

Just more Short Attention Span Theater for the American populace.

Actually, the ones with the diminished attention spans are the pundit class who apparently can't bear to focus on more than 2 people at a time.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I' m wondering if this was the party system all along
or is it to push out the Progressives before the primaries?
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-31-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
22. Time for a well needed kick. Already recommended.
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. Sooo.... All the voters are off the hook?
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-01-08 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. Then fight for a national primary day.
Make it two weeks before the convention and everyone gets to vote for every candidate.

I still can't believe Dean fights so hard to maintain the status quo bullshit.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Great idea
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Then the candidate with the most early money wins. Yeah!
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-02-08 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
29. There were only two real primaries with delegates awarded.
I am particularly astounded at all the Edwards supporters who want to still vote for a guy who promised to fight all the way to the convention, took all their money, and then quit as soon as possible. (But only after DK withdrew to fight for his Congress seat.)

Really, if you don't like this system, there is only one way to protest-

Mike Gravel.

Unless there is a third candidate who actually wins delegates, the superdelegates will decide between Hillary and Obama.

Your vote really won't count.

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