Why Hillary Does NOT Deserve To Be President.

[cjmastaw]

Okay, before I begin, let me tell you all that the informatin I am getting is from the Daily Kos. So, please spare me the freeperville & New Republic comments. If that is all you have to add, I'm just not going to respond.

In order to avoid any plagerism issues here, and keep the cut/paste to 4 pagragraphs, I have rewritten most of the information, but if you would prefer to read it directly on the kos, it's still on the page. Here is the link.

I did the work to put this together. So please, read it before you post.

http://dailykos.com/

Former (R) Senator Lincoln Chafee has written a book sure to really piss off both parties in washington.

Scott MacKay has read an advance copy, and is reporting that the book attacks Bush, Republican extremests, as well as Democrats that also enabled the Iraq war.

Of course, being that Chaffe is a Republican, there are few criticisms of Republican leaders... Big suprise. He did write that he should have left the party sooner than he did, but stayed because he thought Rhode Island would suffer from Bush's vindictive retribution, just like in Vermont after Jeffords defected.

Alright, so you get the tone... so here are some snippets from the Kos.

Snippet 1:
“What they had, I discovered as the meeting stretched into an hour,
was next to nothing,” recalls Chafee. “They showed me what they
had with little comment and no enthusiasm." Someone handed me one
of the infamous aluminum tubes, the kind we were told Saddam was
using to enrich weapons-grade uranium while plotting mushroom
clouds over America, the ‘smoking gun’ that Condoleezza Rice
warned about."

Chaffe said he loooked at the tube, and that it looked like one he could buy at any hardware store. In other words... nothing that would be a "smoking gun" as Rice called it.

So, with this being the case, why did the Democrats buy into the propaganda? Chaffe said it was nothing more than political cowardice. This is where it gets interesting.

Snippet 2-4:

“The top Democrats were at their weakest when trying to show how
tough they were,” writes Chafee. “They were afraid that Republicans
would label them soft in the post-September 11 world, and when they
acted in political self-interest, they helped the president send
thousands of Americans and uncounted innocent Iraqis to their
doom...

Chafee writes of his surprise at “how quickly key Democrats
crumbled.” Democratic senators, Chafee writes, “went down to the
meetings at the White House and the Pentagon and came back to the
chamber ready to salute. With wrinkled brows they gravely intoned
that Saddam Hussein must be stopped. Stopped from what? They had no
conviction or evidence of their own. They were just parroting the
administration’s nonsense. They knew it could go terribly wrong;
they also knew it could go terribly right. Which did they fear
more?”...

A bewildered Chafee, seeking an explanation, turned to an unnamed
Democratic senator who opposed the war but was well-respected by
his party’s leaders. This senator tells Chafee “in confidence” what
concerned the Democrats. “They are afraid the war will be over as
fast as Gulf One. Few will die, the oil will flow and gasoline will
cost 90 cents a gallon.”

Now, the senator he spoke to turned out to be Jack Reid (RI), although both of them refuse to either confirm or deny.

Among the Democrats who refused to do their work, was Hillary Clinton. Chafee said she put her presidential ambitions first; above standing up to Bush and the war.

He then makes a valid point. And this IS the main point I am bringing up.

If you are going to aruge that you got duped into voting for a rush to war, how does that make you a viable candidate for president?

Seriosly people, think about that. Saying "he tricked me..." so to speak. That's her excuse? Do we really need someone who can be tricked that easily. She DID read the NIE? Right? I mean, she WAS given it.

Just ask Kucinich. He actually READ the thing.

Here is Hillary's stance, in her own words, also posted on the Kos.

The video is the first one posted; just scroll down when you get there.

link on Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/30/191653/018/37/444394

Or, if you believe that I'm not just making this stuff up, here is the direct video link.
direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyC7loMop58

[Metric System]

1. At this point, Daily Kos is about as unbiased a source as FreeRepublic

[cjmastaw]

2. You didn't even read it.

It's been up for 1 minute and you got a response. You didn't even read it.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. It's been posted here repeatedly today

[cjmastaw]

6. I haven't seen it. So Here It is... In full.

And how would you know what I posted? You waited less than 1 minute to reply.

[neutron]

15. Please go back to Daily Whore

and stop pissing their BS in what up until now has been
a good, informative forum.
Daily Kos has little if any credibility.
In case you haven't figured it out, their heavyweights
are long gone.

[cjmastaw]

19. You're kidding right?

that's why they are the number one political blog?

[neutron]

20. says who?

Daily Kos of course!

[cjmastaw]

23. Says the numbers.

they get more hits than any other political blog out there.

Google never lies!!! type in most popular liberal blogs and Kos is number one.

Search engines reflect traffic; that's all the proof i need.

[neutron]

27. Numbers never get skewed

by savvy programmers. You're right. Trust the internet.
It's the Christian thing to do.

[cjmastaw]

29. Can you PROVE me wrong here?

Or are you just going to keep giving me your opinion. I provided you with proof. You just give me your opinion.

[cjmastaw]

32. It is also the most linked to political blog... Here's PROOF!

http://nymag.com/news/media/15972/

[neutron]

33. If you're going to quote from a blog

and don't want to be looked at like you're a retard,
quote from places like Talking Points, Atrios or Huffington Post.
ps - your link was from 2006

[Maven]

4. I wouldn't go that far, but their bias is pretty obvious

[milkyway]

12. Oh no, a biased political discussion site! I never knew such things existed! I bet Lincoln Chafee

isn't even writing a book, it's all a big fabrication.

Like Fox always says about us liberal types, if somebody has an actual point of view then everything they say can be dismissed without arguing the actual merits of what they say. They are,after all, biased--against us!

[Maven]

They have a right to their bias, and I have a right not to read it

Truth be told, I never understood the appeal of the place. Most of the diaries are boring and its comments section is poorly designed.

[cjmastaw]

18. It was one of the first blogs out there

It is the number one blog now...

and it's simple an to the point.

[neutron]

24. And it sold out and their credible writers took off

[cjmastaw]

26. Kos seems pretty credible to me

and the millions who go to his site.

[neutron]

30. Stick with what you like then

and if you don't mind being snickered at by people who know
what's going on there, quote what you read on Daily Kos.

[cjmastaw]

31. And I suppose you know everything.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[milkyway]

21. I agree with you about the design. DU is clearly the best designed discussion

political discussion site on the internets.

[cjmastaw]

22. Yes, because that is what DU was designed to be

Kos was designed to be a blog. This is a discussion forum.

[JAbuchan08]

47. BWAHAHAHAHAH!

what a joke

[ursi]

5. Great info! Thanks! I am going to spread this far and wide!

[CK_John]

7. Chafee is another one of the so called moderates that never answered the bell when it counted. n/t

[featherman]

8. I'm confused... because it's on Kos Chafee didn't write it?

What does bias have to do with whether or not Chafee wrote this? I mean he did. And that's all that's being quoted. Strange stuff from you guys tonight.

[cjmastaw]

9. I had to rewrite the article

in order to post all the information here. Everything except for the quotes; That is what I am saying.

You are only allowed to cut and past 4 paragraphs, otherwise they have to yank it so they don't get sued.

[caligirl]

10. Well done! just as I thought, and I had the same question_ why

would anyone want a commander in chief who says she was duped by the other guys?I didn't buy the Bush lies, my husband didn't and millions of Americans didn't, yet they would vote for a person who bought the crap? Don't look now, the axis of evil loves Hillary!

[cjmastaw]

11. Axis of evil?

OH... Bush Cheney McCain?

[caligirl]

13. no, if she wants us to buy her reason, she got fooled, then taking it

to another conclusion, bad countries like NKorea,Iran, Syria, might love this about her. You can't have it both ways. We didn't read the NIE but we knew the information being used was bogus(Scott Ritter and Joe Wilson ferociously spoke out and both paid a huge personal price)She took a big risk in choosing to say she was fooled. A US Senator known to have Presidential aspirations shouldn't be getting fooled about such serious matters.All she had to do was pick up the phone and ask members if the AEIA a few questions. Not the kind of President who should deal with the mess we know Bush is leaving to us and the world.

Having said this, I would very reluctantly vote for her if forced. Not a stellar endorsement for a Senator touting 35 years experience on one hand and 'but Bush fooled me' on the other.

[Justice Is Comin]

14. How many times does it have to be

recycled? She bought bush's line of crap that he was going to keep the inspectors in and follow up with the UN.

Imagine a President Kerry that would have asked for a similar resolution to have the power should he need it. That would have been the same thing and what she thought she was voting for. If it had been a president who could be trusted, the war would have never started.

I don't like that it happened and I am no Hillary groupie. But that's the way it happened. John Edwards bought it too. If any of them had seen the one page summary bush got, it would have been plain as day that there was no need for military action whatsoever. But he had what he needed.

Do you really think she was anxious to send kids to die? I'd say her background in Arkansas would tell you different. At least formulate your opinions on the facts.

We're talking about serious stuff here for the next four years.

[cjmastaw]

16. She wasn't anxious to send people to their death...

She was careless in making her decision. And I don't know which is worse.

She was not only careless there, she was careless with the Kyle/Lieberman amendment as well as the bankruptcy bill.

Too many times around that block shouldn't make you a viable candidate.

[caligirl]

17. Istand by what I said, patronizing comments are offensive- you can save them for

someone less confidant.No one thinks anyone, except Cheney et.al, was anxious to go to war and kill troops.

[Justice Is Comin]

25. Then you just defeated your own logic.

Because you can't have it both ways.

Not reading it would not have been my style either, but she wasn't exactly uniformed as to what it said. The reports were wacked. Combine that with thinking you should be able to trust the Goddamn president of the United States, and she came down on the side of America's best interests.

Damn I hate defending her.

[cjmastaw]

28. Kucinich read the same information

And he got it right. But then I suppose he actually read the reports.

It doesn't change the fact that she got it wrong. Along with the Kyle/Lieberman amendment, which now they are panicking because Bush is going to to try to use that to attack Iran.

[Justice Is Comin]

34. She's not a Dove.

But you're not under the pressures she's under either having to make those choices. Stand in the shoes of a law enforcement officer who has to make a split second decision to fire his weapon and kill someone. We aren't privy to what she is. Look at what Pelosi did and the House of Reps.

The bankruptcy bill I have no excuses for her whatsoever. I guess she's apologized for that one and she should.

[caligirl]

38. rather than this, I'm voting for someone with a mind less bent on triangulating

but capable of deep independent retrospection. I figure I'd rather take those odds.

[caligirl]

36. Barbara Lee also got it right.

[caligirl]

35. and i will hate voting for her. Peace.

[Justice Is Comin]

39. Peace back.

[eridani]

45. Why would anybody trust Bush?

And whatchu mean "America's" best interests, Kemosabe? Halliburton just relocated to terrorist financing center Dubai, and shouldn't be regarded as "American" any longer.

[eridani]

44. All the pols who voted for IWR were trying to cover their asses

Dead American kids or dead Iraqis were of no concern.

[Hippo_Tron]

37. I'm mostly concerned about the fact that they were dumb enough to think the war would be a cakewalk

I'm used to politicians voting to get themselves re-elected above all and frankly I don't expect any different as much as I wish it were. Asking politicians to do things that will hurt them politically is like asking corporations to do things that will hurt their bottom line. The system simply isn't designed for it.

However if some of these people had pulled their heads out of their asses for two seconds, they would've listened to experts not tied to the Bush Administration, like Jim Webb, who knew that we were headed into a fucking disaster. Seems to me that it's politically beneficial to oppose something that will turn out to be a disaster.

Put another way, the idea that Hillary was putting her presidential ambitions first doesn't bother me all that much. The idea that Hillary was listening to Powell, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz instead of listening to people not pushing an agenda really bothers me.

[caligirl]

40. Webb went to my husbands school, the US Naval Academy, my husband

was immediately suspect of the propaganda and discussed it with other friends from the military community. He had an excellent military, foreign policy education and saw the lies for what they were. To say nothing of the disaster Webb saw coming. My husbands exact words were" we don't have enough bullets" to fight that one. In other words it would be a major disaster for years to come.

[Justice Is Comin]

41. Who knows how they were brainwashed

in those classified briefings? It was all a set up. You can only know what you know.

I think she even talked independently to generals and Powell too. Don't forget his role. She wasn't just anxious to go hell bent for war. She probably independently confirmed more than most senators combined. Don't forget also she was first lady and had more than a few connections.

Damn, still defending her. I guess that's how public defenders must feel.

[Hippo_Tron]

42. As credible as Powell was at the time, he was pushing an agenda

And I don't mean that as a slam against him or the Bush Administration even. When you are Secretary of State, you aggressively defend the President's agenda, no matter what President you serve. Even if you have to sacrifice your better judgment to do so, you do it.

Powell's judgment was compromised and so were a lot of other peoples' simply because they served at the pleasure of the president. Someone who spent 8 years in the White House should know that better than anyone.

[Diane R]

43. "Hillary Clinton. Chafee said she put her presidential ambitions first; above standing up to Bush".

[Unbowed]

46. Okay, now who are we going to believe Hillary Clinton or Lincoln Chafee?

I'm no Hillary Clinton supporter, but I'd hardly laud Lincoln Chafee for his courage. I distinctly recall quite a few times he wimped out and voted with Republicans on issues he had spoken against. Until he was voted out of office. Now he has a tell-all book and he's a hero. I'm not buying into taking everything he says as gospel.

There has to be a point where we stop believing anything from anyone just because it reinforces something we want to believe.

[JAbuchan08]

48. Or disregarding it because it doesnt'

IN my mind Hillary is no more credible than Chaffee. He may not have had the courage to switch parties, but he was smart enough not to vote for war.

[Unbowed]

49. He may have voted against the war but he voted for how many of the things that have us royally

screwed now? Overall, I'd take Clinton's record over Chafee's. And I say that as a strong Obama supporter.

[JAbuchan08]

51. I'm not saying Chafee has a better record than Clinton

He may not. My point is that he seems decent enough that I won't discount what he says out of hand simply because A) He was a Republican and B) because I feel a knee-jerk need to defend Hillary Clinton on her IWR vote.
He basically confirms what I have thought all along about Democrats who voted for the war. They made a political calculation *some* of them are still trying to run with that political calculation (for president). I'm not relying on Chafee to be the source of my suspicions but what he says seems pretty accurate so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this time.

[Bonobo]

50. I couldn't agree more. K&R!