Remember, Kerry lost the election in 2004 because of his Mary Cheney comments/little things matter

[Tropics_Dude83]

So if this "snub" gets legs, it is something that can torpedo a whole campaign. Remember, Kerry was surging going into the third debate and seemed headed towards the presidency. Then what happened? He mentioned Mary Cheney was gay and the campaign's numbers dipped a fair amount. He was ahead by like 2-3 points until that. I remember reading "The Note" on ABC noticing that Kerry's numbers had started a noticeable slide by the Saturday after the Wednesday final debate.

So, if people perceive Obama to be a rude misogynist, this could be very damaging. We got 4 more years of Shrub because he mentioned that Mary Cheney was openly gay so......

The polls were looking very good up to that point in time.

[no name no slogan]

1. He lost because he got Swift Boated

not because of Mary Cheney.

[Tropics_Dude83]

7. I disagree

I followed that race incredibly closely. He was doing very well and destroying Bush in the debates and gaining points in the polls. Then, he mentioned Mary Cheney and the whole thing started to unravel. If you can find the tracking polls, I suggest you look at them. Of course, the swiftboating did matter along with the Iraq issue but he had turned the narrative around after the first two debates.

Here is my evidence from ABC's the Note from October 18, 2004:

We are keeping up as best we can, but beyond the horserace and the obsessive focus on the Big Ten states, there only is time for major phenomena, and sweeping through from Friday night through Monday morning, here are the two most major:

1. By nearly every credible indication available, President Bush seems to have moved, post-debates, into a small but potentially meaningful lead over Senator Kerry.

2. Senator Kerry has begun to make false negative attacks against President Bush a much more central part of his campaign than before, moving toward parity with the president on this front.

Those are the "Whats." The "Whys" are a little harder to unearth.

As for the polling that shows the president ahead, here is what the Chattering Class believes about it:

A. Because the polls moved slightly in Bush's favor after the debates, there must be a reason, and the only two reasons they have been able to come up with are (i) the Mary Cheney remark; and/or (ii) the nation, having considered the totality of the debate round robin, decided it wanted a steady, likeable leader — rather than a voluble debating champion — to be the honcho of the free world.

We have no idea if those are the reasons, but that's the best anyone has offered that has smacked against our ears.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

19. Your research substantiating said statement sucks.

Please provide something, anything that would back up your assertions.

[Catch22Dem]

2. you don't believe that do you? (n/t)

[rzemanfl]

3. Kerry won, they cheated and it's not Kerry's fault the Cheney's

are such assholes.

[NanceGreggs]

4. He lost because he got Diebolded ...

... and because of the shenanigans in Ohio. His Mary Cheney comments had nothing to do with it.

[fascisthunter]

5. The Election was STOLEN!

[DiamondJay]

41. stolen?? I think even Bush woulda had trouble stealing the 2 million votes by which he won

lets be real. We lost. First off, Bush was the, albeit sorry, will of the people. Of course the media told them what to do, but they did not steal 200k votes with machines. thats just too hard and complicated to do. Florida was a different matter, because the margin was infinitesimally smaller

[Nailzberg]

6. Good point. Okay, candidates, no mentioning Mary Cheney this time around.

That should do it.

[elocs]

8. I didn't realize that there was any "one" reason why Kerry lost. n/t

[Tropics_Dude83]

9. David Gergen on CNN October 14

"John Kerry very likely the next president."

What changed between Oct 13-18? Only the MC comments.

[Mass]

12. Bin Laden's tape and Ohio's tricks...

[Tropics_Dude83]

17. Actually OBL helped Kerry

It was like a 5 point national Bush lead before that according to polls from Pew, Battleground, etc., it narrowed down to 1-2 after the tape.

[beachmom]

31. Wrong. Kerry himself said that their internal polls flatlined after OBL's appearance. n/t

[kerstin]

37. Your memory is the same as mine.

The videotape actually backfired, or at least was no help to Bush. It was said that it reminded people of both the war and Bush's failure to capture OBL.

So since Kerry went on to win, it's hard to say exactly what effect Kerry's use of the "L" ultimately had.

(By the way, I know that Kerry later ascribed his loss to the appearance of the tape. However, I suspect he was just trying to deflect from the fact that the election was stolen.)

[blm]

14. Terry McAuliffe refused to secure election process for four years after 2000s theft.

And likely ignored election fraud for 2002 and 2004 DELIBERATELY.

[blm]

10. Kerry WON. The RNC stole that election for Bush. And DNC let them do it by

refusing - for four years after 2000's theft - refusing to secure the election process for Dem candidates and voters in 2002 and 2004.

Kerry won. Bush lost. RNC stole it. DNC let them do it.

[INdemo]

11. John Kerry did not lose the 2004 election

and should be running for re-election now.......

[mtnsnake]

23. Yeah, that's why he's sitting in the WH

The OPer is correct. Boneheaded mistakes like his dorky gaff at the end of the debate cost him dearly. It wasn't what he said so much as the way he said it and his timing.

KERRY: "We're all God's children, Bob, and I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a LESBIAN, she would tell you that she's being who she was. She's being who she was born as."

:banghead:

[Tropics_Dude83]

28. And something like he only married Teresa for her money

Something like that was said at the last debate in Arizona.

[mtnsnake]

33. Now that I don't remember him saying at any debate

[INdemo]

40. There are some that will never stop blaming John Kerry for the loss

The corporate Republican power group had all the tools in place to steal the '04 election long before the first vote was cast(see Meet the Press interview transcript with Bush Feb04') Jesus Christ could have been our nominee and the Republicans would have found a way to steal it..The "Cheneys daughter" comment was treated like everything else the corporate MSM thinks will cast a shadow on Democrats..Remember the exit polling indicated Kerry won.
You need to understand that corporate America was not about to give up their puppet that was worth billions to them..And dont be surprised if this same corporate group steal this years election...Maybe they can see a another GWB in McCain.

[newmajority]

44. I don't see how Kerry said anything wrong.

If I remember correctly, he was making a point regarding gay rights, and he happened to mention Mary Cheney, who is openly gay, in questioning the Republican platform on those issues.

But the Cheneys and the right wing media whores cranked up the spin machine and made it appear as though Kerry himself had dragged Mary kicking and screaming out of the closet. Fact is, Mary had been using her sexual orientation to benefit the right wing cause for years, even going to work for the ultra right wing Coors brewery when they were under a boycott from the gay community, because they bankrolled an anti gay rights amendment in Colorado a few years back.

But the spin worked, and people thought Kerry was a bastard for mentioning it. I'll be the first to say he made a lot of mistakes in his campaign, but that one was nowhere near the top of the list.

[MonkeyFunk]

13. There were a number of reasons

and the Mary Cheney thing was just one small one.

[557188]

15. Maybe...just maybe

John Kerry was a horrible candidate like many Dean supporters tried to argue way back when.

But oh no...he is more "electable".

It's a bit scary i'm hearing the "Electable" myth being thrown around again this year...

[politicasista]

16. No, lack of party support, an inept DNC Chairman, GOP controlled media and a fear-minded public

And yes, they cheated.

[Peregrine Took]

18. Bringing up Mary Cheney was ridiculous and made him look small and petty.

Many things contributed to his loss and this was definitely one of the bigger ones.

He wasn't a total victim - he had a hand in his own demise - don't forget the $$$$ bike and the wind surfing, in addition to his not responding in his own defense to the swift boaters.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

20. LMAO.

:rofl:

[kerstin]

21. It definitely had an effect

because of the opportunity it afforded the right wing noise machine. For days afterwards, instead of the buzz being that Kerry had swept the debates, it was all about Kerry's use of the "L" word.

Still his numbers bounced back enough for him to win. (A lot of good that did.):eyes:

[Tropics_Dude83]

22. I remember freaking at the time

When Drudge et al. started to hammer the Cheney story, I remember freaking. I was very emotionally attached to Kerry in that race. Things never felt the same after that.

[kerstin]

34. I actually was so upset I ended up in the hospital that night with chest pains.

As soon as I heard it, I worried we were done for. I knew what could be made of it and the danger it posed to his campaign.

I hope whoever gets the nomination has at least one intuitive type on their staff to bounce ideas off of.

I felt a strong bond with Kerry as well. He was an easy candidate for dems to unite around. Sadly I don't see that happening this time around.

[Botany]

24. The polls were looking good on 11/3/04 @ 1:07 AM in Ohio

52 to 48% Female voters in favor of Kerry.
49 to 47% Male voters in favor of Kerry.


BTW I live in Ohio too. As far as the "snub" there is no there, there. It is a big plate of nothing.

[Benhurst]

25. Kerry lost in 2004 because the election was stolen. In Ohio, minoirites

were not given sufficient voting machines, voters were caged, and the electronic votes were fixed.

Kerry was a poor campaigner; but the Republicans still had to steal the election.

And there is a good chance the Republicans are going to do it again. They are already hard at work caging voters.

And when it is all said in done, the corporate media's talking heads will tell us "America wasn't ready for an African-American president" or "wasn't ready for a woman," and it will be too late for us to do anything.

[CTyankee]

26. I don't know if that one comment was what lost it for him. But I do know

that when I heard it, I found it a bit too "gratuitous." It wasn't the right thing to say. He didn't have to say it. It added no value and indeed caused a lessening of value in his campaign.

But remember, the RW was very well organized and got in front of his remark on all of the news outlets and commentaries with how much he had "denigrated" poor Mary Cheney. In short, John Kerry fell into a trap of his own making.

I don't see the "snub" in the same light as you do. I think it will be over so fast we won't know it happened...

[Occam Bandage]

27. What a bizarre claim...

[beachmom]

29. That is NOT why he lost the election. Get a clue.

He lost due to:

1. Lies about him and the Iraq War
2. Fear and terror alerts
3. Osama bin Laden making an appearance the Friday before Election Day
4. Cheating on the voting (suppression, etc.)

Not Mary Cheney.

[Tropics_Dude83]

32. He was AHEAD in October!

Until he said this so explain why he had surged into a tie/small lead until this and then dropped back after to being 5-6 points behind.

You are ignoring the tracking polls which dropped after this comment. ABC/WP had it tied the day after the third debate and a 5 point difference for Bush after!

BTW, I'm not equating this with Obama's snub. I'm just saying that small things do matter.

[Catherine Vincent]

30. You couldn't be more wrong. nt

[Hoof Hearted]

35. He lost for many reasons not the least of which was Ohio, but point taken.

Not so much on the handshake thing, although it's clearly getting play.

I was thinking of McCain and his comment about Chelsea being ugly.

[dionysus]

36. "Remember, Kerry lost the election in 2004 because of his Mary Cheney comments"

where the hell do you guys get trained?

lololololololol

[John Gauger]

38. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Look it up.

[ErnestoG]

43. ...and bippity boppity boo.

[demo dutch]

39. Kerry kost because he was a weak candidate!

[ErnestoG]

42. Kerry lost because he ran a SHITTY CAMPAIGN

Get it straight.

[JackORoses]

45. goddamn this hillarite desperation reaks!

[VolcanoJen]

46. Wow.

Not to pile on, but is that really your view of the 2004 election?

[DrFunkenstein]

47. Gay Marriage Was Bigger Than Mary Cheney

The Cheney slip was a blip. Putting gay marriage referendums on the ballots drove up conservative turnout BIG time.

People in the LGBT community should remember that when they make it difficult to get our foot in the door with civil unions as we shift public sentiment towards a more tolerant view. Acting like a bunch of attention-seekers trying to force themselves down people's throats, so to speak, only delays real progress in a realtively short amount of time.

I am very, very pro-immigration, but I recognize that public sentiment must be framed properly before trying stuff like driver's licences(sp?).

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. Uh, no he didn't

Next crazy argument?