Why Kerry can't win?

[muchacho]

War waffler? Free market hypocrite?

Let get it all out here and try and answer the coming the deluge of attacks from Bushco.

[DNA]

1. Dukakis

Kerry keeps running from the liberal label as if it were the plague. This is reminiscent of the previous candidate from Massachusetts except Kerry started doing this in the primaries. He didn't even wait until the general election.

[Monte Carlo]

3. Kerry took the 'liberal' label with stride...

... when Ed Gillespie called him that in a recent speech. He said it was a complement. I don't think he's running from it.

Kerry will have problems with the stigma of Dukakis, but Kerry is not Dukakis. He will not ignore the attacks in some vain attempt to transcend them.

[DNA]

8. I just read

an article in which Kerry was avoiding the label.

[Monte Carlo]

10. Then would you mind sharing it?

Because I don't know that one. I do know he's taken the GOP attacks so far very well.

[DNA]

11. Geez

I don't remember where I read it. I think it was a summary of Kerry's campaign so far on MSNBC's website. I've been reading a lot this morning. Sorry.

[emulatorloo]

15. I've heard him asked about it many times, and I have never heard him dodge

the liberal label. It usually comes in the form of (paraphrasing)

"Well if it is liberal to support x, then call me a liberal. If the best that GWB has is to call me a liberal, that is pretty lame."

[orangeotter]

24. Kerry and Edwards were afraid of Liberal tag

I am a huge Kerry supporter, but if you watched the debate on Sunday when they ask him and the others if they were liberals he hemmed and hawed a bit. He basically said it was silly to call him the most liberal senator (true, but why act like it's an insult) and started naming off conservative (fiscal) votes he has made. Edwards was no better and Kucinich and SHarpton (not surprisingly) had the best responses. Kerry needs to defend the true defention as a progressive for equality in life. People are afraid of Nader and then they alienate people who are the most liberal with those answers. There is sound reasoning behind a centralist positions, but don't sell out the left.

[DNA]

29. Thanks

That was what I read.

[PATRICK]

7. Win the word war

Defensiveness of any type should be out. Reacting to pre-emptive strikes should take on a different form. Striking first and to the heart of the truth should be quick and pre-emptive and by all means loud and repetitive.

Our group here is not at all alone in being ready to become fearful, despairing, discouraged, defensive and silent. All the slime in the world is ready to uplift a criminal who can't speak English or get his lies straight. We are on our own and we depend on the superhumanness of our candidates.

We have to get this campaign on a real footing, not on the forever illegitimate right wing Bush terms. Stop being played for suckers or granting any modicum of decency or rationality to right wing extrmeists and destructive corporate self-interests.

From my experience, anxiety and fear produces defeats and self-fulfilling prophecies of doom all their own. In the aftermath when the vapors clear one wonders how one could have been so stupid and ended up becoming one's own executioner.

It is the other side, besides all the horrors, that has shown to be capable of grand blunders and ineffectual(to say the least) campaign gestures. YThey need the wagging tail, the smelly behind, the whole dog, but the dog is dead.

[Blue_Roses]

37. Dukakis and Kerry

are not two in the same. I was active in that campaign in
'88 and there is a huge difference in the two, not to mention different times.

[liberalnurse]

2. I hate to say this but.......

Many of the kerry voters are "McDonald voters" and have not reviewed the issues and talking points of the candidates. I know this from my interviews with many at the polls who said they supported kerry but could not tell me one reason why........

The DLC and democratic insiders shove this candidate down our throats. They never embraced the other candidates. Thats our controlling leadership.

[felonious thunk]

4. The guy has won a significant majority, in over half the states

How can you say that the DLC shoved him down our throats? Is DU so out of touch that it doesn't recognize that the people have spoken, and they've spoken in favor of John Kerry? Kerry is hardly a DLC type, why o why can't we stupid liberals just be happy that a real actual left candidate is our party's nominee?

[liberalnurse]

5. Oh yes kerry is the DLC type.

He was the only one the DLC team supported in a covert fashion. They made him the candidate through distancing themselves from all the rest...So much for Party Leadership. They managed each states Democratic headquarters and the manlipulation just trickled down.

[trumad]

9. Kerry's our canidate...Deal with it!

What..you going to continue to break him down all the way to November... I sure can tell where some posters priorities are? :eyes:

[liberalnurse]

19. You don't know a thing about my priorities.

Heck, you don't even know me.

kerry is a weak choice.... that is my opinion and greatest fear. *bush knows he is weak and how he got the nomination. You say "Deal with it" and I say that we were forced to have kerry our nominee.

I have to stomach kerry as our nominee, you'll have to "Deal with him loosing to *bush" and you took the DLC bait. You will have to "Deal" with that.

[trumad]

21. Your priorites are to break the dem canidate down

Come on,,,admit it, you want another 4 years of Bush dontcha?

[cally]

38. Fine...if I accept your theory

then he will get the rest of the vote. Let him win however you want to frame it.

[DNA]

6. that proves nothing

Kerry was a self-fulfilling prophesy. This sort of thing happens in groups all the time. If you analyze the group dynamics of the Democratic primaries you'll see this is so. Kerry started to be so "popular" only after people were told that he was "so popular" with other people. I agree with the first poster that Kerry voters are McDonald's voters. I've found that to be the case. Issue voters backed other candidates. Kerry's people are mostly ABBers and people who hopped on the bandwagon.

[orangeotter]

26. What about Iowa and NH

What about the first states where everyone was told Dean was the most popular. I worked for the campaign in NH on the Vermont border and we were still able to win based on good campaigning and a strong candidate. The DLC wasn't showing much love at that point. Iowa came through b/c Kerry campaigned well and Dean and Gephardt hurt each other. That was pure political dynamics not party leadership forcing things. Give democratic voters some credit. Do people tend to fall in line after the first couple weaks? Sure, but I think a lot of that was bad choices by other candidates in strategy. You fail to realize that most people can't verbalize the reasons they are casting for their candidate they have a feeling and they go with it, republicans, democrats, independents. It is extremly common everywhere.

[muchacho]

13. I disagree

>>Is DU so out of touch that it doesn't recognize that the people have spoken, and they've spoken in favor of John Kerry? Kerry is hardly a DLC type, why o why can't we stupid liberals just be happy that a real actual left candidate is our party's nominee?

I disagree, the DLC and the media chose Kerry early on and worked on him like a puppy on a bone.And Kerry is a moderate Conservative (like Clinton) at best. Or as the nation swung so far right that now Kerry is a leftest?

Either way..Kerry is it...He wins on intelligence...patriotism (he SERVED!)....

Rove is looking for the soft spot now.

[formernaderite]

33. Does it worry you at all that voter turnout has been very low?

I looked at some of the numbers from my state of Maryland...looked to be about 16%...is this a sign of apathy?

[DNA]

36. It worries me.

I know of a lot of people who are less than enthusiastic with what's happening in the Democratic party. They're not enthusiastic about voting for Kerry now. Something has to be done to motivate them later.

[emulatorloo]

17. I hate to say this but you might be wrong - and here's why

Kerry came back because people were looking at the issues, and he was connecting with people on the issues. DLC was so not interested in JK, media was so not interested in JK. People in Iowa and NH saw these guys, heard what they had to say, and came out for JK. JK has been campaiging hard in all the states, and people are responding to him.

[DNA]

31. There's a clear bandwagon effect

Look at these figures:

Jan. 13, Washington, D.C.: Kerry does not get 77% of the vote
Jan. 19, Iowa: Kerry does not get 67% of the vote
Jan. 23, New Hampshire: Kerry does not get 52% of the vote
Feb. 3, Arizona: Kerry does not get 54% of the vote
Feb. 17, Wisconsin: Kerry does not get 64% of the vote
Feb. 24, Hawaii: Kerry does not get 54% of the vote
March 2: Kerry gets majority or plurality in most places

Note how the percentages have reversed themselves. Kerry won states in which he really only got a small percentage of the vote early on. Most Democrats voted for other candidates in the early primaries, but Kerry's narrow victory became the bandwagon. Is he really 64% more popular now than he was in Wisconsin and 77% more popular than he was in Washington, D.C. or are people voting for the candidate others are voting for because they expect he'll win? Since it's always been the latter, I'll go with that hypothesis.

[emulatorloo]

34. How does the narrowing field play into your theory?

I am more than willing to buy that there is bandwagon effect, but I guess I was tiring of hearing from LN how Kerry voters are stupid and don't understand the issues.

[DNA]

35. The field

Obviously the number of candidates will change the percentage of votes. Still, I had all candidates on my ballot yesterday, including the ones who dropped out. Dean won Vermont after dropping out. My point, though, is that it's impossible for Kerry to have gone from being 33% popular to being 68% popular in a matter of weeks without some kind of bandwagon.

I don't know who LN is.

[bigtree]

23. tell me one reason why........

. . . you'd rather spend all of your time tearing at our presumptive nominee? I don't trust posts that continually tear at our Democratic candidates. You have posted nothing but attacks. Do you have a candidate? (*?) Tell me why you support him. I'll listen.

[chelsea0011]

12. Why Kerry can win

:toast: :toast: :toast:

He has to explain his votes on Gulf War I head-on by taking it to the public why he voted that way. The problem is is that it can't be done in a sound bite which is all the media wants to hear. There was a debate going on in Bush I about giving sanctions more time and most votes "against" the war were voted along those lines of debate. You can't explain that in 10 words or less. Ed Gillespie is a machine gun of talking points, but what he does is imagine what the world would be like if Kerry were in charge with all his "wrong" voting record. The Dems should just pick one or two of Gillespies rant a pound home how things would have been better with the Dems in charge.

I've seen Kerry here in Mass. for many years. One thing that is lost on him is his ability to campaign and pound home issues. He was all but dead against a moderate and very popualr governor here in Mass., William Weld. Weld held an over 60% approval rating here and was expected to due in Kerry in the Senate race. As with this years' primaries Kerry started slowly but by the end of the race came on like gangbusters, much to our surprise to easily beat Weld. I expect the same against Bush.

[59millionmorons]

14. Why Kerry will win

JOBS JOBS JOBS

[muchacho]

16. not enough

>JOBS JOBS JOBS

If that's all he's got he will lose.. The media will keep up the "great times just around the corner" cry to work consumer confidence...this benefits Bush....

[59millionmorons]

18. Well then you should be happy

Your wish will come true. President Bush

[AZCat]

20. The media can say all it wants

You can't get someone to ignore an empty stomach though.

Ultimately, if people are having trouble finding work, or their friends and relatives are unemployed/underemployed, they will vote based on that rather than what some blow-dried anchor recites daily.

[muchacho]

22. never underestimate the culture war

Whenever I see an old beat up car with a Bush/Cheny sticker I wonder
"What could that person possibly get out a Bush presidency?" And then Bush comes out against Gay marriages and ignores the world to do what he wants and "believes in" and I realize there is a significant block of voters that vote on "moral" instead of economic lines.

Not actual morality (like not killing scores of innocent Afghans and Iraqis merely to make a point) but the cardboard, puffed up kind tat the Reps have become very good at feigning at the expense of those mamby-pamby, weak-wristed, Liberals.

[bigtree]

27. What I don't understand is, if only half of half of eligible voters vote

why our base and other liberals and Democrats can't vote in numbers to crush Bush. There is too much apathy and grousing about how effective the soap opera moral crap that Bush is promoting will be and too little belief and confidence in the principles of our party. It's not just about economics, it's about competence and effectiveness. It is about electing a leader we can trust and believe, not just whether he will keep his domestic promises, but can his word be trusted in world affairs by the American people and our international partners.

We have an opportunity to present our vision for America and project the confidence that we will actually do what we say, as opposed to the mealy-mouthed dictator in chief we have now.

I wonder about those who constantly portray our party as weak because of our principled stands for minorities, for sexual orientation rights and respect, for workplace protection, for Unions, for gun safety, for universal and affordable health care, for progressive taxation, for women's privacy rights and the right to choose, for preserving and protecting the environment, for supporting human rights at home and abroad, for alternative energy and a lessening of our dependence on foreign oil, for reasonable fuel efficiency standards, for affordable higher education, for a education initiative that doesn't penalize schools and teachers, for campaign finance reform, for affirmative action, for the preservation and protection of the environment and wildlife, for pay equity and parity, for immigrant rights to health care and schooling for the children, for a deflating of unnecessary Pentagon bloat, for more AIDS research and treatment, for a real prescription benefit, for medicinal marijuana, for fair trade as opposed to free trade, for deficit reduction and debt pay down, to provide full support and access for those with disabilities and handicaps, to make certain that there is adequate, safe, affordable housing for all, for a respect for the privacy of individuals; the rights of individuals to due process of law, for protection from unlawful or unreasonable surveillance and searches, for protection from any actions by governments, groups, or individuals to suppress protest, dissent or disagreement, to challenge and demand from our government, protection from unlawful or unreasonable arrest, detention, separation or deportation, and for the rights of individuals to be informed and to inform others of actions by the government or its agents to restrict, degrade, or eviscerate our life, liberty, safety, or freedom, and protection from the unreasonable and unlawful excesses and tyrannies of the majorities, in our government and wherever they threaten.

C'mon. Get on board!

[muchacho]

28. now...

take what you just said and say it in 11 seconds....

[ngGale]

40. There is morality and then there is Morality--I have to agree with...

you on this one. In the South that is exactly what I see every day. I hope we can close the gap--but never underestimate Bush and his machine. And then there is Diebold. His Vice has to be a real winner, not a sleeper or we will lose the Independent and moderate voters. Kerry has to take some Red states in the South. But if he chooses an old one we are going to lose the young vote.

[Nicholas_J]

39. Why Kerry will win

votes.votes,votes.

In all breakdowns of all the national polls (and Kerry is beating Bush in all of them) Kerry receives 90 percent of the voting Democrats with 10 percent of the voting Democrats crossing over to vote for Bush. However, on the Bush side, Bush gets 85 percent of Republicans voting for him, but 15 percent cross over and vote for Kerry. This gives Kerry an enormous advantage in the general elections with a net positive of cross over votes of five percent in Kerry's favor. The swing vote of independents is about 7 percent of the rest of the vote, so Kerry can appeal to a minority of that group and still trounce Bush in the general election. Bush must either start appealing to more democrats, or get those Republicans whoare dissatisfied with him to return to the fray, and the prosptect for that do not look good.

[damnyankee2601]

25. No problem:

Bush LIED to him about the war.
Free markets are fine. Secret energy policy meetings and no-bid contracts are not free market.


Next "problem" please.

[muchacho]

30. next problem

East Coast Liberal Label

[damnyankee2601]

41. Kennedy was an "east coast Liberal"

And Bush is from Connecticut.

[TheStateChief]

32. I think you'll see five lines of attack:

Bear in mind that I don't believe these things, I just think this is the line of attack the Repugs are now using or will use to tear Kerry down

1. Kerry promises to raise taxes only on the Bush class, but Clinton promised the same thing and then didn't deliver. You can't trust Kerry to do what he says on taxes (I read this morning that polls showed 51% of Americans already think Kerry will raise taxes on everyone, not just the rich).

2. Kerry will run even higher deficits than Bush according to his campaign (as reported by the Washington Post, who seem to be hard at work for Rover BTW).

3. Kerry didn't vote for stealth bombers, cruise missiles and Patriot missiles and then equate that to being weak on national security. I also expect anything they procure with the $87 billion defense package that Kerry voted against last year will be thrown at Kerry (i.e. "Kerry voted against body armor", "Kerry voted against fighting Al Qaeda", "Kerry voted against bullets", etc., etc.).

4. Kerry's flip-flopping will show he can't be trusted in the future (against 91 war, for 2003 war, against funding for 2003 war as an example).

5. Kerry's out of touch with what Americans want (they'll use past votes to distort and smear Kerry for standing up for gay marriage, being against the death penalty, and wanting more government control over Joe Sixpack).

Kerry needs to have not only a stump speech to refute these things, but also a well thought out plan that not only underscores the difference between him and Bush, but also the fact that his plan is BETTER than what Bush has thrust upon us the last four years.

[mikehiggins]

42. WE got it all out weeks ago. Didn't help.

The voters voted and the deal is done. There are a lot of problems with this candidate, but he is the candidate and we have damn little choice but to do our damndest to get him elected.

Well, we do have a choice, of course. It is vote for Kerry or watch Bush prance into a second term.

Oh, wait. That's not a choice at all, is it?